John Paul II, RIP

[TklDuo-Ann]

As most folks can't help already knowing, the Holy Father went home to the Lord on Saturday evening. From a liturgical standpoint, it was on the Feast of the Divine Mercy; a feast he, himself, promulgated. I thought that to be very appropriate...and not at all unexpected. Most will likely agree that he accomplished many great things in his life, both before and during his pontifical reign.

I remember several years back when he visitted central park in NYC. I was one of many present at the time. At one point, the crowd began chanting, "JP2, we love you!" The Holy Father responded by shouting back, "I love you more!" We then went back and forth about a dozen times shouting that we and he loved the other more. The entire day was filled with special moments like that one. It is an experience that I will always hold dear.

Whatever your feelings about the Church and her teaching, I invite you to join me in praying for his soul and for the Church in this time of transition.

(Please refrain from debate in this thread. That is not its purpose. Any debate should take place in a new thread in P&R. Thanks.)

Ann

 

[sole seeker]

He was truly a holy man.

May God watch over his soul and all of us who are poorer for his loss.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'll concur with Ann that it is no coincidence that he passed over on a holy day, the feast of the Divine Mercy, that he himself made an important event and one of significance.

He is (I would rather not refer to him in the past tense, as he is very much alive and watching down on us with a smile and blessings, especially to those who pray for his intercession) one of the most compassionate, understanding and wise men of our times. He managed to stay completely faithful to the church's teachings, and also managed to reach out to a new generation and collapse and break the iron grip of a tyranny in parts of the world. And yet, in his earlier days he was a man of sports and was at one time an actor and playwright, a poet and skier.

And he has a sense of humor.

He has a special connection to the youth of the world, and some of his last words on this earth were to them.

He is a man who is very accepting and accomidating of different religions and faiths, believings its very important that you have faith. He embraced the world and it's sorrows as he knew and grew up with them. He is a humanitarian. He is a humble man who seeks out God wherever He may be. And now that he is at home with the Lord, he need look no further.

His passing was not one of sorrow and pain, but one of joy and celebration (he also would not want us to be in dispair either). Many pray for the repose of his soul, and rest assured God has already taken him up in rightful place among the courts and presense of the Father. Our prayers of faith and intercession are still all the more important however and I openly encourage people to do so.

I think that in a physical death, the Pope's death has opened many more people's hearts to love and truth and made a profound impact on them. He always had a presense whereever he was. He made people weep merely by speaking or walking/riding past them, and to those whom had a personal encounter with him, will be blessed forever by it.

He is truely a pious man, wise and humble, full of love for all of God's creatures. He did not represent just catholism, not just christianity as a whole, but goodness, and good works and will towards our fellow man.

He has left an awesome example of how to live in Christ no matter what level of connection you have to Him. He has shown the religious and non-religious alike what the true calling of God is and how that can be lived out on this temporal earth of ours.

I could not be prouder to be a Roman Catholic, and I could not be prouder of Karol Wojtyla. May God continue to bless him, and may we never forget him and the legecy he has left us. And, may we someday all get to meet and embrace him in paradise. Amen amen, allelujah allelujah!

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Beautifully stated, CE. I've yet to be able to put into words just how much of a loss I feel...AND how greatly I rejoice in the gift he's been and will continue to be for so many. May the Lord be praised for the wonderful gift He gave us in this man!

Ann

 

[JPie1]

you know as a Jewish person I saw this pope as a wonderful man who did more to bring people of different backgrounds together then anyone else in the church. He was a compassionate man. I did not agree with all his views but I wish him peace.

 

[50greg]

I'm not a churchgoer, but I did once consder becoming a Catholic because of John Paul II. He was a great man-- one of the towering figures of his time.

 

[tickledorange]

I still remember in '99 when he came here and you could barely make it through the streets. Going to see him at the TWA Dome was probably one of the best things I have ever experienced. He was so eloquent and had a lot of nice things to say about our city, I will never forget it.

 

[Wicker Man]

Theyre definitely gonna make him a saint.

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Theyre definitely gonna make him a saint.

Yep. Just a matter of timing. There are all sorts of rumors flying. Some say that the cardinals are talking about proclaiming him venerable during the conclave. That would get things off to a quick start. But, even if they don't, I suspect that vox populae would bring things to a head. (For those who don't know, this "voice of the people" can proclaim our belief that this man is a saint and that procedings for formal canonization should begin. If there is enough response, they'll fast track the process.) I've heard of a few healings during his earthly ministry. So, once those are documented, it's just a matter of time. The norm is for a 5 year waiting period without that.

I also heard an unconfirmed report on CNN that the body had not been embalmed...or at least not fully so...before he was brought to lie in state. This is somethig totally out of the ordinary. I haven't heard anything about that since. If that is true, it makes me wonder if they thought he might end up being incorrupt, as several other saints have proven to be. Just wondering if anyone else had heard that.

Ann

 

[Wicker Man]

The Pope wrote a book my lawyer showed me about his life I think. He led a very hard one working in the stone mines when he was young and (not too sure about this...) fighting with the Polish resistance against the invading Nazis. I forgot what the book was called but it shouldnt be that hard to track down on the Barnes and Noble website.

 

[50greg]

Ann-- Yes, I heard they hadn't embalmed the body, too. I think I probably heard it on CBS or CNBC, because that's what I watch most.

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Wickerman.... He has actually written many books over the years. Where he found the time, I don't know. Here's a link to his writings listed on B&N... http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?ATH=Pope John Paul II&userid=3D5EHCQ1YS

Greg... Thanks! I thought I'd heard that correctly. It will be interesting to find out if it's actually true...and if so, what happens. If he DOES end up being incorrupt, that would lend more evidence to the canonization procedings.

Ann

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Did anyone watch his funeral mass last night? It was beautiful.

 

[JPie1]

Ann,

Excuse my ignorance on this matter but what does this mean "proclaiming him venerable "

Thanks, learning is the best way to conquer ignorance!

 

[50greg]

Ann, you seem to be our expert on Catholicism, so I'll ask you this. Is it still true that the cardinals can theoretically choose anybody to be the next pope-- not simply one of their own, or not even a Catholic?

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'll answer that. No. LOL, where did you hear that? This isn't some random process that can include just anyone. Alot of thought and prayer goes into it and the college of cardinals picks an existing cardinal to be Pope. Its not as simple as pointing to someone from a Vatican window and saying "Hey, you! You wanna be the Pope?!" 😀

EDIT:

As for "proclaiming him venerable", its just that, proclaiming him venerable. In other words, its another step in acquiring the title of saint. Ultimately its not something that is just done, much like appointing a Pope. We are all called to be saints and we are when we are doing God's work or die as a martyr for God, etc, but those that are ever recognized officially have made some kind of impact, like John Paul and all of the others. They've somehow caught the attention of the Church or a people or nation, and are brought to the attention of the Church via word of mouth, rumors, and any number of official and non-official ways.

Proclaiming him venerable is just one step in an advancing process. The Church does this to be as accurate and sure as possible. It investigates matters of miracles, etc, and goes through the history of the person with a fine-tooth comb until all doubts are removed. These aren't necessarily their doubts, but the doubts of others as well. They look for venerable things they did with their life, if they lived in service of others, they proclaimed God's word, they performed miracles or miracles happened because of their presense, etc.

Once he's established as venerable, its as good as saying he's worthy of the title of saint. Thats an easier way to put it. Obviously, John Paul is an exception, and will probably be made a saint regardless without much of an investigation. His works were known to the world and of course to the Church, as it's Pope and prior to that as well during his life as a youth and onwards, so its easier in this instance to make an appointment with so many qualifying "credientials" so to speak.

 

[JPie1]

thank you Celtic for that very good explanation. I am Jewish and never really studied religion that much, either my own or others but I always find it fascination. So much history in it. And it is through good explanations that we can truly understand one anothers beliefs. Understanding is a great step towards acceptance in this world.

 

[50greg]

Celtic, I wasn't trying to denigrate the process. Id be as shocked as you clearly would be if the next pope wasn't one of the current cardinals. As I said, I was talking theoretically. Theoretically, the cardinals don't elect the new pope; the Holy Spirit, working through the cardibals, does that. I just think the bare possibility that anybody could be chosen is interesting.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ JPie- You're welcome. I'm glad if I helped in any way. 🙂

@ 50greg-

Yes, thats true. But there is also no "bare possibility" of what you said at all, which is why I said what I did. While its through discernment of the Holy Spirit working amongst the cardinals that will decide this, it is limited to a very specific list of potential candidates from within the Church to begin with. I'm sure you realize that, as you so eloquantly pointed out that it is the Spirit that drives the conclave toward a decision. You seem well-informed of this much, but where you get the idea that it could be anyone (even in theory) is what led me to believe you were misinformed, as that prospect alone doesn't ammount to much common sense and would contradict the necessity of the way the appointments of the Catholic Church work.

God understands the Church, and so will centralize a chosen one from amongst it's ranks to lead it. A possible candidate from the outside is non-existant, even if we could come up with several ideal leaders, again in pure theory, to fill this role. Its wishful thinking, and theres nothing wrong with that. These people could always be spiritual leaders anyway, and that would be something to look forward to as well. And if they are pure of heart and intent, God will bless them and their ministry all the same, perhaps regardless of what religion they belong to. 🙂

 

[50greg]

Celtic, As I said earlier in this thread, I'm not Catholic, but I do read a good deal of history. At one time, back in the mists, as I understand it, the cardinals could elect a non-cardinal pope, and sometimes did. During the Middle Ages, I think they even elected a non-priest a time or two, but that was when popes were more European kings than spiritual leaders.

If you say such a thing is no longer possible, I'm sure you're correct.

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

Actually, that's right, Greg. There was a point when it was possible to elect someone else. The problem arose that it led to political rather than spiritual selections and some anti-popes (invalid selections).

Now, canon law stipulates that it must be a cardinal and that the cardinal must be present at the conclave in order to be elected. There are other requirements as well....including the age and linguistic minimums. Though some of what takes place seems pretty political, it truly is led by the Spirit when the cardinals cooperate with that.

BTW...cardinals, while ordinarily bishops or archbishops can also be a priest or deacon. The title is more honorary (like monsignor is) than one of authority. It's simply the fact that most happen to be of a higher office before the title is bestowed that leads to the appearance of it being a ranking.

Ann

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I'm interested to see who they come up with. John Paul was the right man for the right age. The next Pope has alot cut out for him. I hear alot of "well, I hope he's as good as Pope John II".

While that again is very good, and wishful thinking, I think it may become unreasonable. We don't want a mere copy of the prior Pope, but someone with their own qualities and strong points, and individuality. I think alot of people that are going to come to expect another Pope John Paul II are either going to be disappointed or worse yet, may not have much faith in the new Pope, because he's not their favorite and they're going to hold him to perhaps an impossible standard right off the bat and expect too much from him in too little time. Creating a sure presense as the Pope is no easy task, and it takes many years often times to really validate your presense, even though God has already made that choice in foresight and knows what this person will be capable of and will do. All is in God's time afterall.

While its definitely important that this next Pope picks up all or some of the previous Pope's legecy and continues it, its also important that he not live in the shadow of John Paul, but take a step forward, be his own man, like John Paul was, and bring his unique talents and spirituality to the Church.

This Pope is probably going to have a rough start just because of the shoes he has to fill. Theres so much to attend to afterall. But I'm sure he'll make it and people will love and respect him with time, even if they disagree with some of his policies and stands on issues. It was the same with John Paul, hopefully it will be the same for this one.


EDIT: 50gref- I wasn't aware you were refering to the past. Yes, thats true, there was a time when it was like that, but I thought you meant in this day and age. I probably should have put two and two together and realized this sooner. LOL, sorry about that.