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Okay. Why? (Warning: Guts On Display!)

Mistress Aura

3rd Level Red Feather
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
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This is probably going to be somewhat long, and some of it may have been covered in other areas, but I need to start afresh as I'm excruciatingly new here:

I came to this forum precisely to find this kind of discussion. WHY? Where does it come from, on a psychological sense? Why do we feel like we have to "come out" about it, when, in point of fact, it's indeed a very innocent action per se? Why do so many seem to feel like it needs to be hidden (myself included)--some of us, even moreso than a truly harmful addiction? A lot of us initially guard it as zealously as if it were a vicious, harmful, society-threatening thing...and for no reason I can ascertain myself. So I present this with a plea--help me to understand, if you would...or can?

How funny. Even now, I'm hesitating over what I'm trying to say, or if I really want to say anything at all...I s'pose after you spend so many years hiding it, it becomes a deeply-ingrained habit to do so. But again--WHY? Why do we feel so absolutely determined to hide it, when there are other people who are more open about fetishes far more deviant than this one (as noted previously by other posters)? In its initial form, i.e., when a great majority of us were first attracted to it, we were children (in my case, a very young child) and seeing it in mainstream animation, so it wasn't even something that could be related to anything sexual on the surface. What made us connect it to physical arousal, most especially if we were only witniessing it and not experiencing it personally? In some correspondence with some friends a few years ago, we agreed it seemed as though it was more prevalent within a particular age group, although the internet may have blown that theory of of the water by now...but when and why did/does it attach to sexual arousal?

And--I am not ticklish, nor do I like to participate personally. I watch. I view. But I don't engage. So now I really don't understand. 😕

I remember the very first time I felt reaction to it--good ol' Fred Flintstone, you know-- when I was about 5, maybe 6 years old. I remember lying on the floor before the televison as my father read a book in his easy chair. When the scene began, I remember feeling a shock and a body-flush as I watched, which I absolutely had no way of associating with arousal at the time; and then turning to my father, I announced to him that I thought he'd better leave the room! Of course, he was incredulous as he looked up from his book, and asked me what the h*ll for?? I couldn't reply--I didn't know what to tell him, I was flamingly embarrassed...but as I recall, it was dropped without further discussion.

Within that same timeframe, or at least before age 7, I further recall doing the traditional childhood "wishing on a star"--and nightly (for months!), I would wish I was as ticklish as my best friend/neighbor. (That wish never came true, though. I am not ticklish. In fact, stroking my skin, especially my soles, is not arousing almost at all. Instead, it's very relaxing -- puts me to sleep. My husband indulges me when I'm having difficulty dozing off. To give a more accurate picture of my lack of ticklishness: people are amazed when I get a pedicure--I read or chat through the sole-scrubbing. 🙄 )

Later in life (in other words, after sexual maturity), before anything was actually widely or readily available in this genre, I would continue to note a marked physical response to mainstream depictions, and with growing consternation. But, as my response grew, so did my self-disgust and determination to keep it absolutely private. I would actually feel anger if anyone were to witness a mainstream scene on television while I was there!

In fact, there was a time in my mid-twenties when I had let down my defenses and told both my previous husband as well as my previous best friend about my "thing" (both people are no longer in my life). This was awhile after I had accidentally discovered The Penthouse Forum books (and BAC!), as well as after having a short association with an embryonic and relatively quickly-defunct newsletter group called "Feathermates" (remember, this was all pre-internet!). I was one of the only females involved and was inundated with attention. Again, all I wanted to do was read/write/view matters about tickling, I'm not a participant. I was overwhelmed and I insisted that all contact be by mail only, except for those two gentlemen who were directly involved in the publishing of the newsletter itself. I was getting stacks of mail daily! But I freaked out, too personal, and I was far too immature to understand any of the joy and relief of the people who were writing me. I backed away and went back into hiding.

When I'd revealed my secret to my husband and my best friend, they were both fine with it, they claimed--but damn, I wasn't! After I told them, I was all the more hypersensitive to anything at all about it. I remember in trying to please me, my then-husband called me into the living room one afternoon, as the infamous animated Dorothy/Wizard of Oz scene was on television. Instead of enjoying it, I remember I grew almost furious with him, turned my back and positively refused to even look at it. Don't ask, I don't know--I do know I only felt shame and embarrassment, nothing pleasurable at all. And later, as a very unique gift, my friend purchased a sponsorship of a humpbacked whale for me (I'm strongly into animal welfare)...a nice gesture, but she deliberately chose the whale named "Feather" and gave me a knowing wink when I received the certificate. Again, I felt angry and embarrassed rather than pleased--even moreso when she informed me later on that she grew uncomfortable when I roughhoused with my young son and tickled him. She said that knowing what she knew about me, she was concerned about what it actually "meant". I was aghast at the idea, but didn't know how to explain that it wasn't the same! I don't think I ever did convince her that those were two entirely different things for me and always would be.

My time is up, I must go. But for those tenacious few who have lingered on through all my prattling and mewling--first, I thank you wholeheartedly for your patience. Secondly--do you have any answers? I semi-understand the psychological reasons for the attraction for a 'lee as well as a 'ler...but why does this effect me, who does neither? And why is it so freekin embarrassing in the first place???

Be kind. I'm vulnerable. :shake:
 
Apparently your fascination with tickling (as a voyeur) goes back to early childhood. My feelings, as a 'lee and as a lover of female feet, also go back to early childhood. Among my earliest memories, from age four, are of wanting to play with the bare feet of the girl who lived next door to us, a year older than I was. I craved even more that she tickle me, especially on my feet.

Where did this come from, at age four? I have no idea, before that is too young to remember.

By the age of five, when I was in kindergarden, I would fantasize every night before sleep that four of the girls in my class were sitting on my arms and legs, holding me down, and that they and a few other girls were all tickling me at the same time.

I have no answer, other than it is a part of my nature, the way my brain is wired.
 
Please don't take this as a criticism, Mistress Aura, but I am curious, given the context of this forum. If you're strictly a voyeur, and have no desire to necessarily go beyond that, in what sense are you a mistress?
 
50greg said:
Please don't take this as a criticism, Mistress Aura, but I am curious, given the context of this forum. If you're strictly a voyeur, and have no desire to necessarily go beyond that, in what sense are you a mistress?


There are other BDSM type activiites, although she certainly doesn't need me to speak for her.
 
I don't think most people ARE actually open about any kind of kinkyness, and I can understand being sensitive. The people "know something about you". I'm curious if either of the two individuals you told then shared anything as personal with you? It isn't fair if it only goes one way.

Where does it all come from? Some accidentally paired classically conditioned reactions, as well as the power exchange that so many enjoy. My own personal thoughts.
 
daryl said:
There are other BDSM type activiites, although she certainly doesn't need me to speak for her.

True. I didn't think of that.
 
You asked why. For myself, being both into feet and tickling, I can definitively tell you where my fetish for female feet came from. As for the tickling, I have no idea, that interest, as I like to call it. sprung up for me gradually, and evolved into what it is today.
When I was little, I used to walk on my toes, the result of being born with a short tendon on my left foot that was fixed when I was nine. My relatives were always looking at, exercising, and obsessing over my feet, that, by the time of age five, I can remember feeling excited if I saw a woman barefoot. If not sexually, but just liking to look at the female bare foot. This evolved into my wanting to smell babysitters bare feet around this time, as gross as that sounds, and then, after that, by pre teen years, it evolved into tickling female couneslors feet at summer camp. I am absolutely convinced that the foot fetish came about as a direct result of my relatives obsessing over my feet in childhood. As for the tickling, I think the tickling experiences I had with female couneslors at camp, combined with articles I read about tickling as the "new sex fetish" at around age 16 in leg magazines, and knowing my pen pal Don Fraser from 1997 until his death in 2002, caused me to evolve into the guy who views tickling as a fetish today. For me, it was no one thing, just a group of things that occurred over a period of time.
As for "hiding this fetish". I havent, actually. My two best friends know I like female feet, and tickling, and come to the TMF, and an incident on here in 2002 caused me to tell my mom as well. She doesnt care, as I am almost 37, and do as I please. The complication for me would be if I met a girl outside the community who didnt like to be tickled, or have her feet played with, and, even worse, how I would broach those subjects with her if I didnt know. I am the type of person that really doesnt feel embarrassment, or care very much if someone who doesnt matter to me thinks I'm odd or different. We all have our unique traits. What would bother me, would be if, for instance, I met a mainstream girl whom I loved very much, and had to explain my fetishes to her, or worse, ask her if she would mind indulging me in them. When you ask another person to do something that is alternative, or might strike them as odd, and can make them uncomfortable, it makes you uncomfortable, I think.
I hope my post answered your question, Aura, and that you find the answers you are looking for on the forum. If you would ever like to chat or message with me about this subject, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you.

Mitch
 
Sex is extremely personal. Very few people that I know are willing to talk about the intimate details of their sex lives with just anyone. Add to this that any sexual interest that's in any way unusual way be viewed with suspicion or ridicule. For those with unusual interests that narrows still further the number of people they're willing to share those thoughts with. Some people don't have anyone in their lives that they trust that intimately, and so it's a real relief sometimes to find people who can hear and not judge.
 
Interesting threads I'm reading today...... :veryhappy

First of all, welcome to the forum! There are alot of wonderful people here (some of whom have already posted), and many more that may be able to help you understand a little bit more of why we feel the way we do about tickling.

Alot of people here have liked tickling as a child, whether seeing it in our cartoons or actually being tickled by relatives growing up, or whatever. Anyways, we like what we like.

I'm one of the ones who has yet to "come out" to friends and family. I did tell my best friend, and she thought it was weird, but we've never talked about it too much. You described the situation in which your ex-husband called you into the room to watch the tickling scene. I would have reacted the same way. It's almost like they are making fun of you or something. If they didn't know you had a fetish, they certainly wouldn't have called you into the room. They might think they are being helpful, but it makes me feel worse when they just put it out there like that.

--T
 
I'll take a shot at shedding some light.

The first question that I'll ask the good Mistress is if she also enjoys seeing some other forms of play, and the level that she interacts. Forced orgasm/denial play to start. Seeing a bound person struggle. Perhaps even just seeing a person get themselves off.

More based on reply.

Myriads
 
Aura-

I can relate 100% to your early childhood experience of feeling ashamed or embarassed by the cartoon tickling scene with your father in the room. My very first memory of being aroused in any sense by tickling was that infamous Ninja Turtles tickling scene. My mother happened to be in the room as my little self sat watching it. I could not then explain why I felt the way I did- extremely embarassed, ashamed and adamant that she leave the room. In other contexts, if the word tickling was mentioned I would withdraw from the conversation completely and would never tickle other people.

Now, coming to terms with this fantastic hobby of ours (and it is fantastic), I think I've figured out why I felt so awkward.

I have always been convinced that any mention of tickling brought immediate attention to me. Everyone in the room must know I love tickling girls, so I must remain extra still and silent while any tickling takes place. And that's the worst way to feel because I wound up missing out on so many tickle opportunities. Even today, I am very selective with the way I go about tickling friends and talking about tickling. But, I have gotten a lot better with it and wont pass up a tickle situation any longer.

My humble advice to you would be: don't ask why you're embarassed, just work to not be. Maybe we don't always need a deep seeded complicated answer to the question. Im sorry to say, but most of us will go through life utterly confused about why we are the way we are in regards to everything- tickling included. Sometimes it's better to stop asking the questions that have no good answers and just go out and make a change in the way we behave. Inside, many of us are still terrified of other people finding out about our love for tickling; the trick is to not let it stop you from enjoying it.

Hope that helps.

Yours,
Meth :redheart:
 
Wonderful post, seriously.

When I was younger, I had much the same situations as you Mistress Aura.

I think it was watching the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon. I couldn't, even to this day why I would have such a reaction at age 6. I didn't really see it coming.

I would have similar reactions any time I saw someone tied, female, male or not. The entire concept of bondage, of not being able to move, was enthralling.

I remember, being tickled as a kid, and more than anything wanting to escape. Laughing and shrieking, it' wasn't long before someone ever did, but I always wondered: what if, I couldn't? What if there was no escape? No break, no "yielding"? No TIME-OUTS! No, "Stop Stop STOP!" and it stopped?

It scared the hell out of me to tell you the truth.

...and it only made me want it more. I began to see if I could make others feel this way, which I could only link to joy, really. I related bondage to tickling immediately, and looking back I can only say it equates to "power". Why this doesn't equate to other things such as wanting to give "pain", I don't know. I find tickling to be, in it's way it's own mystery. Perhaps due to it's implied innocence.

That's probably why it's so hard to "Come out" with it. It's easy to say these days that one is into "bondage play" or "Leather", etc. However to say you enjoy, tickling as a sexual activity, which is something kids do, something parents share with THEIR kids, etc, it becomes sort of... "Shameful". To admit that tickling is a turn on, is to sort of admit to playing "Ring-Around-The-Rosie" being arousing to a degree.

I know this sounds like an exaggeration, but it seems to be one of the few logical conclusions I can come up with. Yes, admitting your kinks is never easy regardless of what it is, but tickling as it's own difficulties in sharing with others... or am I wrong?
 
Here's my opinion, Mistress, always to be taken with a grain of salt. 🙂

All of your troubles seem to have the one common thread of other people knowing about your tickling fetish. You've been conditioned all your life to look at this fetish as something to guard, something to keep secret. This is because, at your core, you yourself regard it as a bad thing. Whether "bad" means sick, deranged, socially unacceptable, all of the above; I don't know. But clearly you are not at peace with this.

I too used to be as guarded as you are. If anybody asked me I if tickling excited me at all, I would deny it even under threat of bamboo shoots under the fingernails. Finally, I told a close friend about it, another guy. He was fascinated by it, and I could tell there was no shock, disgust, or revulsion. So I told another friend or two about it. They expressed varying degrees of interest. But one of them told me that tickling is very benign, compared with some of the other stuff that's out there, and after a lot of contemplation on my part, I finally concluded he was right. When you consider that some are into pain-giving, mastery, pedophelia, necrophelia, golden and brown showers, tickling is really pretty mellow.

Feel free to PM me anytime you'd like to discuss it further.
 
Ace Riley said:
That's probably why it's so hard to "Come out" with it. It's easy to say these days that one is into "bondage play" or "Leather", etc. However to say you enjoy, tickling as a sexual activity, which is something kids do, something parents share with THEIR kids, etc, it becomes sort of... "Shameful". To admit that tickling is a turn on, is to sort of admit to playing "Ring-Around-The-Rosie" being arousing to a degree.

Yup, this is the thought I had too when I stopped to think about it.
 
My Whole Life Changed Last Night!

:bouncybou

You guys are all AWESOME! I love you, love you, LOVE you! :Kiss2: Thanks in part to all of you and your helpful, patient and welcoming responses, I was blessed with the most complete and joyful catharsis last night!

Since I bared my all--okay, well, my most 😀 -- to you yesterday, I feel it only fair that I share "the rest of the story", to quote Mr. Harvey...

As I mentioned, I am married to a very wonderful, incredible man (not to be confused with the other schmoo from my previous marriage). It wasn't until last night that I was made aware of just how incredible, though!

:couch: LOL

Remember I related that while he was aware of my fetish(es) and fascination, he respected my privacy and we didn't ever discuss it? Yesterday evening about 6 pm, I had just gotten out of the shower. I had briefly had a chance to glance at some of the responses to my original post, but it was hasty at best--he had gotten home from work and God forbid he should catch me on this website, right? :blush: He walked into the office and asked what I was doing, as we had some minor dinner plans. I shooed him out and followed him, and was unable to really finish, so I became fixated. I thought about it all through showering, finally wondering if I perhaps needed to seek professional help for the inner torment I was experiencing, then realizing with further desolation that I felt I would rather walk a firepit than discuss this face-to-face with a stranger...I couldn't even come clean with my husband!

Later, as I was getting dressed, I was compelled to at least tell him about being on this website and to assure him (in the event he ever accidentally stumbled onto the information that I was online speaking to other people on a site that was focused on my known fetish) that I was only here to seek advice and enlightenment from more experienced people, nothing more. Sidenote--we have some friends who went through almost a complete marital meltdown due to perceived internet adultery and I wanted to be certain he understood this was in no way like that.

Out of respect for you, dear readers, I'll cut more rapidly to the chase. One thing led to another, and the full truth began to emerge. I was suddenly overcome and burst into tears--and many years of self-loathing and fear and anger and doubt came pouring out of me. He sat me down at the foot of the bed and we talked for almost 3 hours. Actually, I talked and he listened, asking quiet questions to keep me on the purge-path. When I finally slowed down and dared a glance at him (I'd kept my eyes averted the whole time), he was smiling gently at me. He said, "You know, we've been married for almost 4 years now. In all that time, I've pretty well felt that you've never really participated in our sex life. I mean, you certainly were always willing to "service my needs", so to speak, but it was never really an us-thing, only a me-thing.

"After listening to you, it seems like all your life, you've focused all your attention on the fetish, with all this shame and fear, until it became like a Pandora's box to you. It's taken all your attention and energy to keep that box closed up tight, didn't it?" (I was speechless and breathless at that point, so I didn't respond verbally to him at that time, but let me say here, HELL yes!) "So much that after awhile, no matter what you wanted or thought, you couldn't take your eyes off the box, right? So you never really completely enjoyed sex, did you? You only performed."

He went on to describe things that I'd only thought--deep, dark stuff that I'd never, ever said out loud to ANYbody. He reassured me of his love and complete acceptance constantly throughout the entire conversation, the told me that in his opinion, I'd let a minor diversion convince me that it was actually a major deviant perversion, when it was absolutely nothing like that at all. Although it wasn't something that he found stimulating in any way, he also said he understood why it effected me because he knew me; my heart, my mind and my personality. And now, after that discussion, he knew even more.

Then...oh, then!..he did something that movies and dreams are made of. He pulled me up on the bed next to him, opened his laptop and said, "Show me. Show me what you like." :blush: :woot:

I hesitantly came here first. I let him read my post, then together, with him spooned behind me and reading over my shoulder, we read all the responses, both public and private (btw, thanks to those who were willing to reach out and hold my hand in the darkness as well as the light! :twohugs: ).

And guess what, Myriads? You hit every single nail on the head--I mean, three-for-three, full-on bullseyes. He saw your response and said, "Hey, look, this guy's good--he knows you, too." And I didn't even really know, dammit! :disgust: Or at least, I didn't put it all together...but he said he'd suspected previously, and now knew for sure exactly what I needed. :scared: :evilha:

After we finished reading, he gently coerced me into showing him artwork here. Then he convinced me to show him some video clips of the things he thought I was attracted to--and by golly, he (and Myriads!) was absolutely right! We websurfed and viewed and talked until 4 a.m.... and afterwards--well...it's never, ever been like that. Not with anybody. Ever in my LIFE. :wub: :wowzer: We finally went to sleep at about 6 this morning. 😀

Again, I do love you guys (I mean that in a unisexual way, of course!), love you all for your willingness to open up to me publicly and privately, to help me, to accept me and to help my husband help me to accept myself.

If there is ever anything I can do in return, by all means, PM me and I'll do my best... thank you again!! :justlips:

P.S. I'll expound on the Mistress title in a different post, k?
 
daryl said:
I don't think most people ARE actually open about any kind of kinkyness, and I can understand being sensitive. The people "know something about you". I'm curious if either of the two individuals you told then shared anything as personal with you? It isn't fair if it only goes one way.

Where does it all come from? Some accidentally paired classically conditioned reactions, as well as the power exchange that so many enjoy. My own personal thoughts.

Yes, they both shared stuff with me as well--and believe me, the stuff we like here is NOTHING compared to theirs. 😱 He was my husband, and she was my best friend; we shared most everything--a concept they took to an extreme, though, as they began a secret affair after he and I had been married for almost 9 years. They are now married somewhere--haven't had contact with them in over 7 years. Thank GOD. 😉
 
Myriads said:
I'll take a shot at shedding some light.

The first question that I'll ask the good Mistress is if she also enjoys seeing some other forms of play, and the level that she interacts. Forced orgasm/denial play to start. Seeing a bound person struggle. Perhaps even just seeing a person get themselves off.

More based on reply.

Myriads

:yowzer:

All of the above...

Interaction depends on circumstance. Forced orgasm is a deeper fascination/obsession that has only just recently reared its head, but denial play just p*sses me off. Bound people struggling...again, it depends why. Anticipation, yes; fear, yes; pre-submission struggles, absolutely. And watching others reach orgasm, most especially self-induced, is yet a third level that I never really told anybody about, although my husband suspected, I've learned...how did you know??

You almost scare me, luv.

And thank you. I am a good Mistress. Or almost was, anyway. 😉 😀
 
Yes, Mistress...

50greg said:
True. I didn't think of that.

Nono, it's fine. I have always been dominant and manipulative, refusing to relinquish control at any time for any reason while somehow maintaining unbitchy femininity (or so I was told). Mistress Aura Blake is a character/persona I recently developed both in role-playing and creative writing; it was apropos to use her name.

Further, in my past, I was involved in adult fetish film production (English/spanking/disclipline), both in creative conceptualization as well as performing as a top in front of the camera. I wasn't physically excited by that fetish play, but was again told I was very, VERY good at it because I understood it--I even received an excellent review for one of the films, which floored me. My nom de plume for all creative works "back in the day" was Moriah Williams, although I doubt you would have heard of me. It wasn't that big of a company. 😀
 
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Incredible series of posts Mistress Aura (I am a Male Lee by the way, and a voyeurish by proxy Ler), and I am sorry I hadn't read this earlier.

All the things you describe, god knows we have all been there one way or another. Let me list a few, from my earliest years right up to my mid thirties:

1) Unable to ever say the word Tickle out loud.
2) When seeing someone being Tickled in a social situation, feigning total indifference as if it was the most boring thing in the whole world, before going home and self combusting.
3) So desperate to be Tickled and yet so hung up about it, that on the rare occasions when one was Tickled, being about as Ticklish as a sack of spanners.
4) Spending a small fortune on Tickling material (Videos and Mags) on the rare occasion when you could find any, only to continually throw it all away in disgust and self loathing.
5) Skulking around libraries to look up the word Tickle in dictionaries and encyclopedias, even looking at foreign dictionaries to see if they had a different take on it.
6) Being unable to contain my self with excitement for a whole week when I saw the film SOME LIKE IT HOT, was on in the TV guide, and then sweating about it all week in case I got killed in a car crash and missed it.

I could go on and on, the point being I would still be there if it wasn't for the TMF (I am one of its earliest members). So I would suggest to you that you have found a home here
 
Laughing With Tears In My Eyes--

With the exception of the "Some Like It Hot" reference and desiring to be tickled personally, I can relate to absolutely EVERY SINGLE THING, sweet Friend Toneus...and a couple I still do. (Can't really say the word aloud, it's "fetish" for the most part, thankyouverymuch--and sometimes my fingers kinda lock before I can even type it. I damn near needed BenGay after the initial post. LOL) Still, I giggled through your post until I literally teared up! 😀

The experience I'm having with this thread is akin to that of finding a gorgeous, priceless antique that's been covered with many, many coats of paint--one must gently remove each layer to get to the beauty beneath, but slowly and carefully so as not to damage the piece in its most vulnerable state...yes?

(Hey, come on, that was a lot better than the old "peeling layers from an onion" crap. 😉)
 
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Congratulations Mistress Aura. That's how a marriage should be. Welcome to our community! :dogpile:
 
I agree with LK, Mistress Aura, welcome, or welcome home. And like any family not everything is perfect but you have found a home for so long as you want it. I have made a few friends in this community that could teach much of the rest of the world how it is done. My name is Jim and its good to see you here.
 
Wish every story here had as happy an ending. I came out to my wife about 3 years ago since I was spending a lot of time here modding, but it didn't play out anywhere as well as yours...lol. Ah well, you roll the dice you sometimes come up 7 or 11, but often crap out, right?

Maybe next life!

Good luck and continued happiness!

Q
 
Mistress Aura said: And guess what, Myriads? You hit every single nail on the head--I mean, three-for-three, full-on bullseyes. He saw your response and said, "Hey, look, this guy's good--he knows you, too." And I didn't even really know, dammit! Or at least, I didn't put it all together...but he said he'd suspected previously, and now knew for sure exactly what I needed.

I have had some practice at this. : D

Now that you have answered, I can expand.

Given that you like the three things I named I can say that your fetish is a branch of the one that I enjoy: Response Control

While my tastes are toward the active side, yours seem to be to voyeristic side. Or an observational branch.

Response control is all about causing. It can be tickling, orgasm play (forced or withheld), massage, bondage, hypnotism, or even regular sex. It's all about doing SOMETHING to cause a action in the other that they would not make on their own.

For you I seems it's in seeing that moment. I wager it has to do with the emotional aspects of the senario. Seeing someone loose composure and control. This can tie back to a lot of other threads in your tastes. But there are humiliation aspects, and control aspects all tied in.

Happy to expand here or in private if you want to follow up more.

Myriads
 
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