Patriotism discussion

[Dragon321]

Is patriotism an outdated concept?

does it belong in the cultural bin along with eugfenics and ptolemaic
astronomy?

Is Patriotism just racism with more people to hate?


lets get the ball rolling people.
only intelligent, well structured arguments please, no flag waving or flaming.🙂

 

[Haltickling]

Excellent question, AM!

Patriotism by itself is neither good nor bad, just like most political opinions. Sadly, it can lead to xenophobia, hatred, and even racism. Like in any political stream, there are moderates and overzealous people. The higher the overall level of patriotism in a country, the more overzealous fanatics can be found.

Personally, I think that your place of birth is nobody's merit. You can't influence whether you're born American, German, Chinese, Iraqi etc. And IMHO, people should only be proud of their own achievements and those of people they've influenced positively (by helping or encouraging them).

In my own experience, I often found that the most zealous patriots are so proud of their country because they have achieved next to nothing by themselves...

 

[avethibaltus]

Patriotism is not all bad

I would equate healthy patriotism to being a fan of a sports team, say a soccer team for example.

A friend of mine is an ardent supporter of Bavaria Munich, which, according to her email today, just won some great honor (sorry, I'm NOT a soccer fan). She boasts of their successes, explains away their failures as best she can, wears their colors or scarf and is generally considered an expert on anything concerning the team. She will not however go out and kill someone for criticizing her team or for being associated with the opposing team. Rather she respects the other teams, their players and fans and understands that this is all part of what makes the game interesting.

Her conduct and attitude, if applied to her home country, would, IMHO be acceptable and admirable patriotism.

On the other hand, were she a hooligan whose only intent were to use the game or support for a particular team (or nation) as a way to further her own lust for violence and destruction, this would be deviant behavior. Such conduct, applied to her home country, could be categorized as militant nationalism.

Patriotism can be healthy and promote competition while giving us the unique identities that we all strive for (what other reason for each of us having a unique name?). On the other hand, as with all things human, taken to excess, it can be terribly destructive.

Patriotism at its best can be seen at the Olympic games. -Abused patriotism can be seen in the middle east, where armies, large and small, assert their "God given rights" to land or "self defense".


*************

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedoms of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." -- James Madison

 

[kurchatovium]

I am 100% patriotic. I love the USA and I make no apologies for the way I feel. I am much more worried about people taking this country for granted than about it turning into some sort of police state or other such nonsense. Can patriotism be carried to far? Of course. Any good thing can be carried too far love, compassion, generosity, etc. All of these must be tempered with common sense. Anyway just my opinion on the matter. Take care.

 

[Dave2112]

This is an excellent question and has a lot of legitimate sides.

I think patriotism is a good thing in general. Like anything, it can lose its meaning and purpose when pulled too far either way. Blind patriotism can lead to some serious problems. In any democratic-type society, you not only have a right, but a responsibility to question your leaders. You can be loyal to a country out of belief in its' system and policies, but you can also wind up loyal to bad ideals and choices out of love of country alone. Then there's the third form of patriotism, in which you are fiercely loyal to your country out of fear. The kind of "patriotism" we see when someone is so loyal to an obviously twisted ideal that they'll die and kill for it...by, say flying some planes into a couple crowded buildings.

Patriotism doesn't have to be absolute in order to be justified and real. I have a lot of problems in the way this nation is run. Things from the federal level to our joke of a NY State fiscal government get me going and seem sometimes ridiculous. But many of these things are things that can be changed. Due to the processes we have in place in America. That's what I put my partriotism behind. The core ideals and values. The way of life.

I'm not an American by birth.
I'm an American by choice.

There's a subtle difference.

You can be patriotic and still listen to another point of view. The USA is founded on cultures from everywhere and they all have an impact on what America is all about. That's just what it means to me. I'm a patriot to the USA not because it's home-field, but because I believe in the culture that the world came together to create.

My 2 credits.😎

 

[Dragon321]

interesting

lots of food for thought here people! ah, what a joy it is to facilitate the discutional process (as don king might well say)
😛

i note that Kurchatovium answers my question by assertion of his own patriotic beliefs, as opposed to taking a global view of the concept. Patriotism is a global phenomenon, possessed in every country by at least some of its people.

Patriotism, as i can see it, is (as has been asserted) a two sided coin. on one hand, it consolidates people within a society who might otherwise have been driven apart (a benefit only for those in power, maybe?). on the other hand, patriotism between countries is, by nature, a conflicting process, as can be seen in the middle east. not ALL people supporting Iraq do so at gunpoint. Patriotism, when coupled with a suppression of proper media (as occurs in wartime USA, or Iraq generally) is a deadly combination.

well, that's my few non-denominational currency!😀

 

[xylo]

Excellent question, AM!

In my own experience, I often found that the most zealous patriots are so proud of their country because they have achieved next to nothing by themselves...

Aboslutely!! I was going to post a huge rant about patriotism on this thread but I think that already says it all.

"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"
-Oscar Wilde
---------------------------------------------------------
xylo

 

[BigJim]

I'm not an American by birth.
I'm an American by choice.

There's a subtle difference.

You can be patriotic and still listen to another point of view. The USA is founded on cultures from everywhere and they all have an impact on what America is all about. That's just what it means to me. I'm a patriot to the USA not because it's home-field, but because I believe in the culture that the world came together to create.

My 2 credits.😎

LOL Ya never miss Scotland then, you old bugger? 😉
If I had the choice of citizenship of any country in the world, I'd choose America. Why? Because there's something I've often heard called "Americana". It's the aura that shines out of a lot of people I've come to know from the US. Confidence, passion, willingness and the balls to put all three into good use. I would'nt take American citizenship because of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the Declaration of Independance. All three are riddled with flaws and much as they appeal to the spirit of "freedom" within you, they need changing and modernising. I would'nt pick America for the internal tourism either, although that is great. I'd pick it because it's the world's mongrel of not only people, but ideas and inspirations. It's a mix of bloody everything and if you're willing to look, you can find whatever you need.
But patriotism? Hmmm.............

I've heard people take incredible amounts of flak for pointing out their country's weaknesses. Quite often the moniker of "un-patriotic" has been thrown at them too. I think to recognise and not be afraid to address your country's faults is the greatest act of patriotism any citizen could render.
And like Dave mentioned, blind patriotism is dangerous too. Because your country is headed by someone who has enough support in political circles, doesn't mean that it's un-patriotic to be against the war. (Just picking any as an example, not refering to the current one.)Being willing to send parcels and aid to troops on the front line is patriotic. (It's also humane.) You don't have to blindly agree to every whim of a political leader to be an asset to your country.

Patriotism is like anything, it's definition is in the eye of the beholder. But whatever your definition of it is, let's hope it one day applies to the globe.

 

[kurchatovium]

Sorry when I think of the word patriot I think USA. If you had used the word nationalism or something like that I would have thought of phenomenon more globally. 🙂

 

[august spies]

good topic.

im not a patriot, humanity comes first, not my "country" or government. the fact is that the previous post is right, people turn it into a football game, i have nothing agianst football games but global politics isnt a football game. it just desensatizes people and makes them more sheepish and willing to rationalize horrid acts.

 

[theallknowing1]

My take on patriotism

IF AT ANY time ANY belief supercedes rational/logical thought that BELIEF has become BAD/WRONG/PROBLEMATIC/ETC and needs to be put to an END.
I believe that patriotism has certainly taken on this aspect in American Culture since 9-11.

 

[Haltickling]

Sorry when I think of the word patriot I think USA. If you had used the word nationalism or something like that I would have thought of phenomenon more globally. 🙂

Oh I know, that's the way many Americans think. WE are the patriots, and the OTHERS are the nationalists. Freedom and patriotism seem to be an American monopoly.

Actually, I'd like to bring up the question: What is the difference between patriotism and nationalism? Only WE and THEY? 🙄

 

[Dave2112]

I don't think we should steer this away from its purpose. Patriotism, nationalism...it's just words and semantics. The point of this thread was the principle itself. I understand what your saying Hal, and I agree with you, but I would like to very kindly request that we stay on-topic here and not get into a vocabulary debate. This is a very interesting topic that bears discussion.

Ok, back to my little diatribe. 😎

Yes, Jim, I miss my homeland everyday. I am going to retire there, I know this. There are certain things and feelings you can only get in Scotland, things that exist nowhere else, and a beauty that many other countries have already built over. There's a sense of patriotism to my home nation as well.

In the days of the American Revolution, people reffered to themselves as Patriots if they were on the side of a free America and not on the side of the continuation of being an English colony. It was a demarcation of intent. People were fighting for thier ideals and the right to keep them and express them freely. The willingness to fight to protect one's home can be considered one part of the definition of patriotism. Granted, many folks back then were joining up with loosely-formed militias who would take anyone. Today, there are guidelines to being able to join the military. I failed two of them (physical reasons) and was unable to. This wouldn't have happened in 1774, so I would have joined. The point is, my WILLINGNESS to fight to defend my home denotes some patriotism by very definition. If America were to be invaded tomorrow, I'd be outside my house with a Walther PPK on a boot-holster, two Berettas on my hips and a sword in each hand...plus a pissy attitude. I don't think the Army would mind at that point.

Another sign of patriotism is the willingness to believe in the "rightness" of your culture. Yes, this leads to some global pissing contests about ways of life, but that's a given sociologically speaking. I believe that the basic foundations of American life are the right ones. Not the ONLY right ones, but it's what I believe in for the most part.

When the things you love about your country outwiegh the things you don't like, you're probably patriotic whether you want to be or not.

I think the thing that makes me the most patriotic to America is a sense of debt to those that created her. Fought and died. I mean, it's such a common story in schools now that people don't realize that the American revolution was kind of a miracle, militarily speaking. There was no way we were supposed to win that one. Not logically anyway. People that were so deperate to sustain thier way of life created new combat techniques that overwhelming enemy forces were unprepared for. (Yes, I know guerilla warfare had been used before, but it wasn't very common on a standard battlefield. My point was only that people got very creative when threatened. Please don't barrage me with a list of military actions with dates and such. It's just a point.😀 )

 

[Haltickling]

Sorry Dave, I think that my question is very much on topic. IMO, you can't discuss the principle of patriotism without a proper defintion, or everybody just discusses their personal concepts of patriotism. That has nothing to do with semantics, it's just trying to find a common denominator about what we're speaking.

So, once again, how would you define the difference between patriotism and nationalism?

 

[Dave2112]

Looking over it again, I see your point, Hal.

To me, it is just sematics, though, so I don't have much to add to it.

😎

 

[avethibaltus]

What about these definitions:

Patriotism - a sense of pride in your home country and/or your cultural roots and preparedness to DEFEND this country/culture against oppression. Minutemen and Kurds would come into this category. These people were/are convinced that what they did/are doing is morally right.

Nationalism - the belief that only your nation can do it right based on some edict from God, genetic trait, or fate, with an inherent preparedness to AGGRESSIVELY prove it at the expense of others, to include the children of your supporters. The Republican Chicken Hawks and Nazis. These people aren't really concerned if what they did/are doing is morally right as long as they get a chance to destroy the evidence, write the history books afterwards, and can keep their children from getting drafted too.

 

[BigJim]

good topic.

im not a patriot, humanity comes first, not my "country" or government. the fact is that the previous post is right, people turn it into a football game, i have nothing agianst football games but global politics isnt a football game.

Good point. I have that attitude to a certain degree. When I defined my conception of patriotism in the last post I made in this tread, I was refering more to what makes me feel happy about living somewhere. It was a "my kind of people thing". But I think that some people let patriotism blind them to the imperfections of their nation and in some cases, the downright evils of their nation.
Of course, it isn't ANY nation that harbours those evils in the end. It's just one particular stream of humanity.

 

[BigJim]

If America were to be invaded tomorrow, I'd be outside my house with a Walther PPK on a boot-holster, two Berettas on my hips and a sword in each hand...plus a pissy attitude.

So where would the lightsabre go then?

 

[Deleted member 2452]

i'd like to complain about an insult.

avethibaltus likened republicans to nazis. this is an intolerable insult!
i am both a member of the republican party, and a jew. i find this type of hyperbole to be inexcusable! i am also a veteran, and served my country proudly. so be carfull who you call a chicken hawk nimrod!

i call upon the moderators to delete his post and/or demand an appology. the american republican political party never set up death camps and slaughtered 11 million people in them! to let this type of insult go, is an affront to too many tmf members.

steve

 

[ShiningIce]

O/T

 

[Deleted member 2452]

O/Topic

 

[avethibaltus]

Dear Steve,

Please accept my most sincere apologies for offending you. It was not my intent and I do believe, that in your excitement you may have overlooked one or two details in my post.

A Republican Chicken Hawk is a very specific reference to a very specific group of people who fulfill the following:
1. Republican (in name at least)
2. Avoided military service in a combat zone during time of war or Vietnam/Korea style "actions"
I do not recall specifically mentioning you in my post but I will check again and if so, will ask to have it removed.

I did in fact compare, a term used to describe the act of relating the qualities of one object to those of another, RCH's to Nazis. If I were a Nazi I would definitely be insulted, as you have so aptly pointed out. I did not compare ALL Republicans to ALL Nazis, as there are too many in my family (and one looking at me in the mirror each morning) who would have a problem with that. (It is important to note that neither RCH's or Nazis have indicated any degree of offense at my remarks.)

I too am a veteran, having served my country in one capacity or another for more than 26 years. I honor all who have served and respect their opinions but do have a slight problem with those who actively avoided (combat) service sending the youth of America off to war.

I am not jewish but am circumcised, if that helps. I confer the same amount of respect upon those who are jewish as well as "those other descendants of Abraham" who are currently not doing so well in their soon to be walled-in encampments and any other person who hasn't shown by words or actions that they are not worth being taken notice of.

For reasons unknown to me, some people seem to think that any comparison to Nazis lessens the significance of what the Nazis did. This has not been, is not, and will never be my intention. Rather I make the comparison because I see far too many similarities in much of what is currently being done and has been done in the name of "defending democracy". Ask the 3500 Taliban fighters taken prisoner of war by US led forces who never made it from one POW camp to the next. Or is it ok that all of these people were massacred? It truly pains me to see how often we forget what we are fighting for and where we have been.

Perhaps I should switch to comparing current US policy to that of Rome? Or would that be offensive also since they were pretty cruel to people in the middle east too? Problem is that Hollywood, our major source of factual historical information, hasn't really properly shown the brutality and abuses of the Roman Empire the way it has of the Nazis, so people have difficulty understanding the point.

If you believe that these similarities do not exist, I would welcome your arguments. As I have said in the past, I would love to be proven wrong.

And again, please accept my sincere apologies. My belief in God, country, and form of government is not however a Letter of Marque for the current government or any other government to go out and take what they can get with total disregard for international law or ethic because they have better bombs and chariots.

BTW, I will add "nimrod" to the list, which according to my Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, page 1213, refers to a biblical character, the son of Cush, a mighty hunter. Nobody's ever called me a mighty hunter before, although I am pretty damn good with a pistol. Personally I would have taken the next entry "nincompoop" which means a stupid silly person, but that was your call. Thanks for the honors.

 

[His Divine Shadow]

Snif. Snif. *Blows nose in hanky*

It's so rare to see people apologize that it's wonderful to see that some do. Kudos to you, avethibaltus.

 

[asutickler]

BTW, I will add "nimrod" to the list, which according to my Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, page 1213, refers to a biblical character, the son of Cush, a mighty hunter. Nobody's ever called me a mighty hunter before, although I am pretty damn good with a pistol. Personally I would have taken the next entry "nincompoop" which means a stupid silly person, but that was your call. Thanks for the honors.

Nimrod is also a small town of about 50 people in my home state of Minnesota. 😛


HDS is correct, though. It's not often you see someone apologize on the internet. 🙂

 

[avethibaltus]

Honored for your comments gentlemen.

No offense was ever intended so no problem with apologizing.

I live for the debate!