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Political Correctness and Non-Consensual Bondage/Tickling Fantasy

sceej56

TMF Expert
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Messages
596
Points
18
Recently, a story of mine called "Sorority Hazing II" raised a substantial controversy. Intially, the complaint seemed to be limited to the use of pejorative term for a sexual minority which I agreed should be removed but from there it evolved into an issue that I think needs to be addressed about political correctness and non-consensual tickling fiction. Rather than parpaphrase and risk misquoting people, I'd respectfully suggest that anyone interested in commenting on the controversy first read the thread under "Sorority Hazing II" in the Fiction section.

For me, the issue is this - I write harsh nonconsensual fiction. I frequently use stock stereotypical characters. Harsh nonconsenual fiction offends some people. Stock stereotypical characters offend soem people. Do the offended have the right (obligation) to demand that material offensive to them be removed or edited until they are satisfied with the edited version? Beleive me when I say I am not trying to portray the offended parties as the "bad guys" per se. This forum was poignantly described as a refuge, as I suspect it is for many of us - but does that mean this forum can not contain anything that offends a minority of viewers - and by minority, I do NOT mean solely racial, ethnic, or sexual minorities.

Years ago, I wrote a story called "Georgia Peach" that some people have generously called a classic. It involved a manipulative materialistic New Yorker and gullible unintelligent Georgians. It was not intended to represent all New Yorkers or Georgians but it certainly played to stereotypes. Should Georgians be offended? Should New Yorkers? Should they be able to request that the story be removed? Should a single offended Georgian or New Yorker be enough to have the story removed? I would concede that the characters (and they are just that - fictional characters) are unflattering; should they be censored and if so, how and by whom? Is the fact that a handful of persons or even a single person is genuinely and severely offended sufficient to requre action?

It could be an extremely slippery slope in my opinion. There is an element of mysogeny (in my opinion) in the majority of the nonconsensual stories involving female victims - could/should female members demand these stories about abduction, tickle slaves and the like be removed as offensive to women? Should male members be able to demand the removal of the female dominance type stories in which men are characterized as dirt? Should fans of particular celebrities be able to demand removal when that celebrity is characterized in an unflattering or inaccurate way? In my experience, some people have a genuine problem balancing majority rule with poltical correctness. Hell, some people genuinely beleive the majority should NOT rule and that if a group of any size (or in some cases, any single individual) is offended then the material should be censored.

In my particular case, I agreed that the pejorative term should be removed; I don't personally agree that the predatory characters in the story should be. I was frankly shocked to learn that the word "bimbo" (a stock character type I use frequently) is, in the opinion of some, offensive and should be edited out. Understand, and I cannot repeat this enough, I have no quarrel with some one being offended and stating so (though my personal policy is simply to stop reading and move on) - my issue is whether offended parties should be asking writers/moderators to edit/delete fiction. I genuinely would like to get a sense of the community on ths as I have no desire to waste my time writing fiction that must be vetted to see if it is non-offensive enough to be published on these boards. How small or large must the offended minority be? Is one person enough?

The easy answer would be to simply tell authors to use their own judgment/common sense ... but it was my judgment/common sense (or lack thereof) that started this controversy in the first place. I am genuinely interested in reasoned replies and am in no way trying to start a flame war.
 
Many of my fiction stories involve harsh non-consensual tickle-torture, as well as kidnapping. So what, they are fiction.

Agatha Christie was not presumed to be a murderer, or in favor of murder, just because most of her novels were about that crime.

You should be free to write as you wish. Others should be free to comment and to call you offensive, but not to force you to edit your work so it suits them.

There is an "Ignore" list feature available. They can set it so as never to see your posts again if they wish.
 
they're free to complain, and you're free to ignore them. nobody 'cept the mods has the right to make any demands of anyone else here and expect them to be adhered to.
 
Political correctness makes some sense in documentaries, news, or TV entertainment in general. It makes absolutely no sense when it comes to literature (if we could call our tickle stories such). "Freedom of Art" is a very important factor within our concept of society. Only dictators and absolutistic regimes censor art in its various shapes, not in what we call "the free world".

Art needs to be provocative sometimes, trampling on the nerves of the mostly apathic majority to awaken them. A lack of political correctness can be a crucial element of the writer's style (see Charles Bukowski or Kurt Vonnegut, for example), or it can be used to describe an atmosphere where the action takes place.

Censorship of fictional stories is the first step to totaliarianism, and in total contradiction of our free world. Only exception: Illegal material like child pornography, which has to be censored here to protect the forum and its members as a whole.

I agree with sceej, milagros, and Phineas. Ignore the complaints. Everything else would do the small minds too much honors.
 
Fantasy -- as long as it stays fantasy -- is nobody's business but the fantasizer.

Your stories hurt no one. You're not advocating real-life abuse. I see no reason you should be censured, or censored.

I, personally, do not like the kind of stories you write -- but that's my problem, not yours. I don't have to read them if I don't want to.

Individual members have the option: read a given story, or don't. Forcing people NOT to read them, through censorship, achieves nothing. People can make up their own minds, whether they share your fantasies, or not. If they don't, they have no more right to impose their views on you than you would on them.
 
Tell Them Who..

Gives a flying rats ass. It's only fiction. So far as your language. Don't ever bother being politically correct, if you go around watching what you say, you won't get a whole lot of worth said.
Use whatever terms are convenient to you, and if they aren't comfortable enough with themselves to accept it, then that's their problem, not yours.

Tron
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've wrote plenty of stories about girls being kidnapped and tickled until they wet them selves, or until they are past physical exhaustion, but I never got complained at. Some people are just unlucky. just ignore them there not the ones writing the stories.
 
Thought Police

I don't visit the tickling fiction section of the site, but I'll chime in with the majority that you should be free to write what you please.

Personally, I think things are changing in our society in regards free speech. There was a news story from a year or two ago about some guy who was busted for writing really repugnant depictions of kiddie-porn in his private diary(?!?) I never heard the specifics of the case. Somehow, for some reason, that diary was apparantly not so private. Perhaps he was posting them on the web? I dunno. The news story didn't elaborate beyond stating he was busted for his private writings. No matter how deranged his fantasies were, I have a real problem with news like that. If a sickie is able to purge their demons in a harmless way like that, then by all means, let `em. Better than some innocent getting hurt by them acting out those twisted desires.
 
Sorry Dr Bill

Child porn is WRONG in any way shape or form. I do not find fantasizing about children as being harmless. Odds are eventually he would have acted out his "fantasies" With children we can't EVER be too careful
He's lucky I didn't find him, I'd have killed him.

Tron
 
The minute you start worrying about whether someone will be offended, your ability to be creative will go right out the window.

Write what you want, and don't let anybody tell you not to.
 
Wrong Yes...

...but try to look at it this way: If someone writes or draws private depictions of some repulsive act that they don't share with the rest of the world, and it serves to satisfy their twisted desires rather than going out and acting on those cravings, then I certainly see that as the lesser of two evils.

As a "fer instance", in Japan, they seem to have a fondness for "rape-porn" and it can be found relatively easily there...and yet the incidence of rape is far lower there than in our society. Am I condoning rape-porn? No. But again, if some basket-case over here in the U.S.A. gets their jollies writing/drawing depictions of aberrant behavior in private, then I say, "Let `em.".
 
Sorry Man..

The incidence of rape is just as high, if not higher in Japan than in the US on a per captita basis. In fact most likely it's higher but older Japanese women don't tend to report rape. Asian societies as a whole have a higher sexual battery rate than equivalent Western societies because of the Women are property mentality.

Many of the worst rapists of and killers of all time started by writing about their fantasies, AND more importantly wrote about them secretly. Much like this guy was doing. So before you say something that uh... again please check your facts. Freedom of speech and thought does NOT apply to cases like this, So please read your constitution while you're at it.

Tron
 
Re: Sorry Dr Bill

Neutron said:
Child porn is WRONG in any way shape or form. I do not find fantasizing about children as being harmless. Odds are eventually he would have acted out his "fantasies" With children we can't EVER be too careful
He's lucky I didn't find him, I'd have killed him.

Tron


Didn't you say it doesn't matter as long as it is fiction? But somehow it changes when it involves children? Well shouldn't we care about the well being of young and old? Then shouldn't we be worried about anybody who fantasizes about kidnapping and nonconsensual torture found in many of the stories in the story section.
 
Thought Nazis

Consider this, though, Neutron. What are the stat's on the number of sociopaths who didn't go on kill-sprees because they found a less-unhealthy outlet(such as art). There aren't any, but I'll dare-say we've all been spared a heapin' helpin' of horror by the relatively harmless outlet of creativity over flat-out action. Kill `em all, will you? That's gonna come back to haunt you after they've gotten rid of the most egregious cases. Then it'll be you're turn under the axe, you sick, twisted tickling fetishist.:devil:
 
my first thought was;

not to use terms like spick, kike, ************, gook, etc.
but then i read the other replies to your thread. and have changed my mind. write what you want, (as long as it's not involving anyone under the age of 18, which is the tmf rules) and if someone doesn't like it, then they can click the little x in the upper right hand corner!
simple as that.
one last note, i have 3 daughter, and they use the term bimbo all the time. they learned it in school!
steve
 
Yes..

It does change when it involves children. Note the rules of this forum specficially prohibit posting stories about children.
Here is a fact, If I ever find anyone writing anything about harming a child in any fashion, whether it be sexual, torture or whatever, in either a private or public fashion I will kill him or her, and I'll do it with a very clean conscience..


Tron
 
I draw the line at photos/videos of underage people. Because in those cases, an actual person is being abused, as opposed to some pervert's fantasy depictions. And, as stated, the writings/drawings by said sicky never see daylight/reproduction/etc. then by all means, let the nutbags scribble to their unnatural heart's content...
 
Dr. Bill.

Don't think i don't at least grasp your point, because I do. Sad fact is studies show that usually in child freak cases fantasy does lead to action. Because no one has proven otherwise (in other words because it's not written down that there are cases that were opposite) you cannot just say, Well see it works sometimes. Facts are it doesn't. And if it saves ONE child then I'm willing to err on the side of caution. Civil liberties do NOT apply to potentially harmful situations. For instance, if you knew someone was making a bomb but they said, Ah I just make them for a hobby, wouldn't you be concerned? Facts are, the freak who was writing the fantasies was turned in, the police got a legal search warrant and confiscated his stuff, then arrested him. It DOES fall clearly under the child porn laws of this country. Freedom of speech and thought does NOT apply in this case.Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to read what the constitution REALLY says. The only free speech it protects is your right to criticize the government, it does not protect anything involving those actions which could harm an individual citizen.

Tron
 
"Here is a fact, If I ever find anyone writing anything about harming a child in any fashion, whether it be sexual, torture or whatever, in either a private or public fashion I will kill him or her, and I'll do it with a very clean conscience"

I'm a writer of mainstream fiction...
and in my current project, one of my main characters, as a child, was horribly abused physically. Aside from being beaten with household appliances, and being locked in a closet for long hours at a time with no food or water, his deranged father held him on the floor and burned his back with an iron.
His childhood was based on one experienced by a kid two years younger than me, back in High School. From what I understand, he later did a stretch.
Please clarify these threats, Neutron. Am I on your hit list?
Better yet, the man who wrote "The Prince of Tides" (his name escapes me!), you gonna go out and kill him? There's an extraordinarily rich entertainer out in California who's been known to have his way with children in his bed out in his fantasy ranch in California, and he's protected by his millions and his lawyers. You gonna go out and kill him?
Methinks my esteemed colleague Neutron has a story of his own to tell, from long ago; maybe he feels funny about talking about it here, and I would certainly understand. I would like to remind him, though, that he is among friends here, good ones, should he ever choose to divulge. The choice is his.
 
Re: Dr. Bill.

Neutron said:
Don't think i don't at least grasp your point, because I do. Sad fact is studies show that usually in child freak cases fantasy does lead to action. Because no one has proven otherwise (in other words because it's not written down that there are cases that were opposite) you cannot just say, Well see it works sometimes. Facts are it doesn't.
Those are not facts. Until now, there are no conclusive studies about the relation between fantasies and actual abuse. It is far more likely, however, that the supression of artistic expression about a fetish/hangup/perversion will lead to it being acted out, since the emotional need builds up with nowhere to go.
And if it saves ONE child then I'm willing to err on the side of caution. Civil liberties do NOT apply to potentially harmful situations.
Alarm klaxons are going off in my head at this point. This way of thinking leads inevitably to the complete annihilation of civil liberties. EVERY situation can be spun to be "potentially harmful". In this case, "erring on the side of caution" would mean a search of every piece of private property, since pedophiles are usually profiled as quite, inconspicuous people, and as such everyone WITHOUT a police record is a prime suspect. Throwing civil liberties out the window "to save even one child" is populist, emotionally based nonsense. No single life, even a child's, is worth turning a society into a nest of thought police and total control.
For instance, if you knew someone was making a bomb but they said, Ah I just make them for a hobby, wouldn't you be concerned?
Bad example. Manufacturing a destructive device is not equal to artistic expression. The bomb-building alone is dangerous to the person building it, not to mention others who might be in the vicinity if it accidentally went off, and that's before the question of motives comes up.
Facts are, the freak who was writing the fantasies was turned in, the police got a legal search warrant and confiscated his stuff, then arrested him. It DOES fall clearly under the child porn laws of this country. Freedom of speech and thought does NOT apply in this case.
Got a link to the story in question? How about one to the child pornography laws of the state it happened in? I somehow doubt that what's written in a private diary, not meant for public consumption, can in any way constitute a crime. But until I have the background on the case, I'll refrain from disassembling it further.
Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to read what the constitution REALLY says. The only free speech it protects is your right to criticize the government,...
Um.
<i>"Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; <b>or abridging the freedom of speech</b>, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."</i>
Where does it restrict the use of free speech to "the right to criticize your government"? Is that a later amendment?
...it does not protect anything involving those actions which could harm an individual citizen.
And someone's diary constitutes harm against an individual citizen? How? I sure hope they don't find mine, or I'll be on the line for multiple murders, torture, rape and whatnot. (Not that I have a diary, but if I were to keep one, oh my...)
 
U.N.Owen said:
Fantasy -- as long as it stays fantasy -- is nobody's business but the fantasizer.

Your stories hurt no one. You're not advocating real-life abuse. I see no reason you should be censured, or censored.

I, personally, do not like the kind of stories you write -- but that's my problem, not yours. I don't have to read them if I don't want to.

Individual members have the option: read a given story, or don't. Forcing people NOT to read them, through censorship, achieves nothing. People can make up their own minds, whether they share your fantasies, or not. If they don't, they have no more right to impose their views on you than you would on them.


I agree. Go ahead and write what you want. I wouldn't get too worried with the "politically correct crowd". They will always find something to bitch about.

So if you like it, write it. The only ones we have to answer to here are the mods...and nobody else.
 
Re: Yes..

Neutron said:
Here is a fact, If I ever find anyone writing anything about harming a child in any fashion, whether it be sexual, torture or whatever, in either a private or public fashion I will kill him or her, and I'll do it with a very clean conscience..
Tron
Neutron, did you just publicly threaten the lives of a lot of people? I think you present a clear and present danger to the society. Or maybe you are just confused -- the nice doctors will help you now.

But then again, none of us here write about child abuse, so you wouldn't come after us, so we shouldn't be worried, right? "When in Nazi Germany they came for the Communists, I did not speak up because I was not a Communist..." You know the rest of that passage.
 
My Thoughts...

If you can't laugh at yourself, then you have some real mental issues to work out.
So what that you stereotyped two butch lesbians? There are lesbians out there who ARE like that. I've encountered them. I highly doubt that any sane person is going to read your story and say to themselves: "Wow, that's how ALL gay women must act." And if they do, then they probably have a hatred towards them in the first place.
I'm Italian. My people are stereotyped EVERY DAY in television and movies as fat, greasy, organized crime-related muffs. But I don't get angry. I laugh, because I have the ability to laugh at the darker side of my race. And the idiots that think all Italians are ginnies and greasballs? They'll ALWAYS think that, until the day they die, and no amount of "Italian Pride" parades will ever change that - they'll only hate you even more, because you're rubbing in their face what they HATE - Italians. Same goes for any other ethnic/sexual parades out there. They're just stupid.
You see, the sad truth is that there ARE Italians out there involved in the Mafia, and the same goes for those lesbians in the story - there IS a darker side to the gay community, and if you can't laugh at that darker side's hypocritical, imbicilic ways, then you need a self-esteem check.
Besides, it pisses me off that it's always women that get offended. There are plenty of misandrist statements in here. For instance, there's some woman floating around here (can't remember her screen name at the momeent) with the quote at the bottom of her posts stating: "When God created men, She was only joking." That is a misandrist, man-hating statement. I guarentee you if I had a quote under my name that stated: "When God created women, He was only joking." people (mostly women) would go nuts. I would be called a mysogynist, etc.
Sounds like a double standard to me.
To sceej56: Keep up the great stories. I loved Georgia Peach, especially that bit at the end with the woman hopping about barefoot on the hot blacktop. Quite amusing.
 
pure contradiction

how can we call ourselves enjoying the fantasy that we have at the forum, and then someone trying to be politically correct about fantasy? to me, that is a glaring contradiction. Let us look at these stories people write for what it is: fantasy. The only time anyone should think otherwise is when it turns into reality. So, basically, if you don't like the writer's cup of tea, then go drink some coffee. Remember, even writing stories, either public or private, is very abstract, it only makes sense in the artist's minds, so if you don't like a certain story, the author only has to worry about one person: himself. My 2 cents.
 
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