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Pro-War Mythology

Biggles of 266

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Counterspin: Pro-war mythology
By Scott Burchill, lecturer in international relations at the School of Social & International Studies, Deakin University

January 14 2003



Perhaps the most remarkable feature of this pre-war period is that despite intelligence dossiers, parliamentary speeches and months of disingenuous government propaganda portraying Saddam Hussein as an imminent threat to life on earth, only 37% of Australians support an illegal, unilateral strike by Washington against Baghdad.

We can be confident the Australian Government is concerned by this figure when the Prime Minister starts conjuring implausible and hysterical "what if in 5 years time..." scenarios to bolster his case for war (The Australian, 1 January, 2003). It's not easy making the current peace "seem unacceptably dangerous" (Mearsheimer & Walt 2002).

Spin doctors and PR consultants will therefore be working hard over the next two months in an effort to close the gap between public opposition to a war against Iraq and government enthusiasm thinly disguised as a commitment to the The United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) process.

Their work will be made considerably easier by the support of loyal servants of state power within the fourth estate who will be reliable conduits for opinion management by governments in Canberra, London and Washington.

Amongst the agitprop, disinformation and outright fabrications by commissars and politicians, the following questions and themes will be prominent in future weeks. Each of them deserves careful analysis.

Is Saddam Hussein likely to use weapons of mass destruction (WMD) against the US and its allies?

First, many states, including the US, the UK and Israel, acquire these weapons for deterrence against external attack. You've got to admire Prime Minister Howard and the pro-war lobby for pretending not to understand the lesson that Iraq-North Korea are now teaching the world: If you want to deter the war addicts in Washington, you'd better have weapons of mass destruction and resources of terror. Nothing else will work.

Why wouldn't Iraq develop WMD for deterrence purposes given threats by Washington and London? We are discouraged from seeing things from Iraq's point of view, but in many ways WMD make sense for vulnerable states. As the realist theorist Kenneth Waltz argues, "North Korea, Iraq, Iran and others know that the United States can be held at bay only by deterrence. Weapons of mass destruction are the only means by which they can hope to deter the United States. They cannot hope to do so by relying on conventional weapons."

As with every country, Iraq's weapons inventory and systems tell us precisely nothing about its strategic intentions.

Secondly, Iraq had chemical and biological weapons during the Gulf War in 1991 and chose not to use them. Why would Saddam Hussein be more inclined to use them now knowing the horrendous consequences (as they were explained to him by Brent Scowcroft in 1991), unless his personal survival was at stake and he had nothing left to lose? AS CIA head George Tenet reminded President George W. Bush, Saddam was unlikely to launch WMD against the US unless the survival of his regime was threatened.

As Mearsheimer and Walt argue, "the threat of Iraqi nuclear blackmail is not credible. Not surprisingly, hawks do not explain how Saddam could blackmail the United States and its allies when a rival superpower like the Soviet Union [with 40,000 nuclear weapons] never seriously attempted to blackmail Washington, much less did it."

Saddam Hussein has form: He has used WMD before

It is true that Saddam Hussein has used these weapons before, against those who couldn't respond in kind - Iranian soldiers and perhaps most infamously on 17 March 1988 against "his own people" in the Kurdish city of Halabja. Within half an hour of this attack over 5000 men, women and children were dead from chemical weapons containing a range of pathogens which were dropped on them.

If Washington and London are genuinely concerned about Iraq's WMD, why did they continue to supply him with the means to acquire them for 18 months after the attack on Halabja?

Initially, the US blamed Iran for the Halabja attack, a particularly cynical ploy given Saddam had also used chemical weapons against Teheran's forces during their nine-year conflict in the 1980s. In fact Washington continued to treat Saddam as a favoured ally and trading partner long after the attack on Halabja was exposed as his handiwork.

At the time, the Reagan Administration tried to prevent criticism of Saddam's chemical attack on the Kurds in the Congress and in December 1989, George Bush's father authorised new loans to Saddam in order to achieve the "goal of increasing US exports and put us in a better position to deal with Iraq regarding its human rights record ". Surprisingly, the goal was never reached. In February 1989, eleven months after Halabja, John Kelly, US Assistant Secretary of State, flew to Baghdad to tell Saddam Hussein that "you are a source for moderation in the region, and the United States wants to broaden her relationship with Iraq".

According to the reports of a Senate Banking Committee, the United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual-use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs. According to the report, this assistance included "chemical warfare-agent precursors; chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings; chemical warfare-filling equipment; biological warfare-related materials; missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment". These technologies were sent to Iraq until December 1989, 20 months after Halabja.

According to William Blum a "veritable witch's brew of biological materials were exported to Iraq by private American suppliers," including Bacillus Anthracis (cause of anthrax), Clostridium Botulinum (a source of botulinum toxin), Histoplasma Capsulatam (causes disease which attacks lungs, brain, spinal chord and heart), Brucella Melitensis (bacteria which attacks vital organs) and other toxic agents. The US Senate Committee said "these biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction," and it was later discovered that "these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the United Nations inspectors found and removed from the Iraqi biological warfare program".

After the recent leaking in Germany of Iraq's 12,000 page declaration of its weapons program, it is now known that at least 150 companies, mostly in Europe, the United States and Japan, provided components and know-how needed by Saddam Hussein to build atomic bombs, chemical and biological weapons. Unsurprisingly, the US was keen to excise these details from Iraq's report before its wider dissemination to non-permanent members of the Security Council (Newsday (US), 13 December, 2002; The Independent (UK), 18 & 19 December, 2002; Scotland on Sunday (UK), 22 December, 2002).

Historian Gabriel Kolko claims that "the United Stares supplied Iraq with intelligence throughout the war [with Iran] and provided it with more than $US5 billion in food credits, technology, and industrial products, most coming after it began to use mustard, cyanide, and nerve gases against both Iranians and dissident Iraqi Kurds".

If the US is genuinely concerned by Saddam's WMD, why did Donald Rumsfeld (then a presidential envoy for President Reagan, currently President George W. Bush's Defence Secretary) fly to Baghdad in December 1983 to meet Saddam and normalise the US-Iraq relationship, at a time when Washington new Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis against Iran (Washington Post, 30 December, 2002)? Why were no concerns about the use of these weapons raised with Baghdad?

Saddam has been successfully deterred from using WMD against other states with WMD. There is no reason to believe this situation has changed or will.

Saddam Hussein has invaded his neighbours twice

True, but this can hardly be a source of outrage for Western governments or a pretext for his removal from power given they actively supported his invasion of Iran in the 1980s with intelligence (eg satellite imagery of Iranian troop positions) and weaponry and, in the case of Washington, told Saddam it was agnostic about his border dispute with Kuwait just prior to Iraq's invasion in August 1990 (US Ambassador April Glaspie told Saddam in 1990 that "We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait." The U.S. State Department reinforced this message by declaring that Washington had "no special defense or security commitments to Kuwait".) This is mock outrage at best.

Saddam's behaviour is no worse than several of his neighbours. As Mearsheimer and Walt remind us, "Saddam's past behavior is no worse than that of several other states in the Middle East, and it may even be marginally better".

"Egypt fought six wars between 1948 and 1973 (five against Israel, plus the civil war in Yemen), and played a key role in starting four of them. Israel initiated wars on three occasions (the Suez War in 1956, the Six Day War in 1967, and the 1982 invasion of Lebanon), and has conducted innumerable air strikes and commando raids against its various Arab adversaries."

Saddam Hussein is a monster who runs a violent, oppressive regime

True again, though this didn't prevent him from being a favoured ally and trading partner of the West at the peak of his crimes in the 1980s. As Mark Thomas notes, the conspicuous aspect of British Labour's attitude to Iraq has been the failure of Blair, Straw, Prescott, Blunkett, Cook or Hoon to register any concerns about Iraq's human rights record whenever the opportunities arose in the British Parliament during the 1980s and 1990s (New Statesman, 9 December, 2002).

Washington, London and Canberra never had reservations about General Suharto's brutal rule in Indonesia, to take on one example of relations between the West and autocratic regimes around the world, and were in fact overjoyed when he came to power over the bodies of hundreds of thousands of his fellow citizens in 1965.

Only the threat of force by the US has forced Iraq to accept weapons inspectors

Possibly true, although this ignores the fact that the last time force was used against Iraq on a significant scale because of its non-compliance with UN Security Resolutions, the opposite effect was produced.

After the Clinton Administration and Blair Government attacked Iraq from 16-19 December, 1998, the result was the collapse of Richard Butler's UNSCOM and the absence of weapons inspectors from Iraq for the next four years. Hardly a testament to the use of force, to say nothing of the precedent this kind of behaviour sets. The Prime Minister's claim that "Hussein effectively expelled weapons inspectors during 1998" is untrue and he knows it (The Australian, 1 January, 2003). Richard Butler withdrew his weapons inspectors on Washington's advice only hours before the Anglo-American attacks in December 1998.

Why wasn't the threat of force an appropriate strategy for the West in response to Indonesia's brutal 24-year occupation of East Timor? Or South Africa's occupation of Namibia? Or Turkey's occupation of northern Cyprus? Or Israel's occupation of Palestine? Etc, etc,.

Has the threat posed by Saddam Hussein increased recently?

The West, particularly London and Washington, was solidly supporting Saddam when he committed the worst of his crimes at the zenith of his power and influence in the 1980s.

In terms of international support - especially Western and Soviet backing, the strength of his armed forces and the state of his industry and equipment, Saddam was considerably more dangerous then than he is now under harsh UN sanctions, (illegal) no-fly zones in the north (since 1991) and south (since 1993) of the country, political isolation and a degraded civilian infrastructure. Why are Saddam's attempts to develop WMD a concern now if they weren't when he actually used them?

Saddam Hussein will pass WMD on to terrorist groups such as Al Qaeda

Despite forensic efforts by Washington to produce a pretext for war, no credible evidence for this claim has been found. All we are left with is unsubstantiated assertions by Bush Administration officials such as Richard Armitage that he has no doubts Iraq would pass WMD on to terrorists (though he doesn't explain how an obvious return address resulting in reciprocal annihilation could be concealed).

This may be enough for compliant power-magnets in the Australian media, but it cannot withstand even a cursory examination. Where is the evidence for such a claim? Osama bin Laden offered the Saudi Government the resources of his organisation to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait in 1990 instead of Riyadh relying on the US, such is the animosity between Islamic fundamentalists and secular nationalists in the Arab world. Saddam has responded by repressing fundamentalist groups within Iraq.

Would Saddam be likely to hand over to Al Qaeda nuclear weapons so painstakingly built when he, himself might be their first victim? Remarkably, the pro-war lobby reads this history as evidence of likely future co-operation between Baghdad and Al Qaeda.

Much of this is a smokescreen designed to conceal who the real proliferators of WMD are. Which states, for example assisted Israel to develop nuclear weapons - France and the US? What role did Pakistan and China play in helping North Korea build its nuclear stockpile? Why can't we read the list of European, Asian and US companies which proliferated WMD technologies to Iraq? Instead of imaginary scenarios asking 'what if Iraq acquires nuclear weapons in five years and what if it passes them on to terrorist organisations?, why not more sensible questions about which rogue states (most of whom are members of the so called 'war against terrorism') are already responsible for the proliferation of WMD?

The US wants to democratise Iraq

There is no serious US interest in a democratic transition in Iraq, because this could ultimately encourage the Shi'ite majority in the country to pursue a closer relationship with Shi'ite Iran - a nightmare scenario for Washington. It's more likely that a dissident former General, possibly involved in war crimes against Iraq's Kurdish or Shi'ite communities, will be returned from exile and presented as the "democratic opposition" to Saddam Hussein.

The US is interested in compliance and obedience rather than democracy. It has rarely, if ever, expressed an interest in democracy in the Middle East. Ideally, a pro-Western, anti-Iranian, secular "iron fist" would do. The recently rehabilitated Iraqi opposition in exile (with whom until recently the US refused to deal) has no democratic credibility and is largely unknown inside Iraq.

What is the status of pre-emptive strikes in international law?

A number of points can be made about Canberra's interest in retrospectively amending international law to legitimise a shift of strategic doctrine from deterrence to pre-emption. It would establish a precedent that others (Pakistan, India; North and South Korea) might be encouraged to follow; it would have a destabilising effect on international order; the difficulty (impossibility) of getting changes through the UN Security Council; the heightened sense of vulnerability for smaller states and for states in the region, etc, etc,. It would open up a can of worms.

Significantly, there is currently only one country which could seriously consider exercising a right to anticipatory self-defence under existing international law - Iraq. It has been directly threatened with attack by both the US and UK. There has been no reciprocal threat from Iraq.

The term 'pre-emptive war' isn't strictly accurate. As Steven Miller explains:

"Though Bush's approach has been almost universally described, in the media and elsewhere, as a doctrine of preemption, this is incorrect. Preemption refers to a military strike provoked by indications that an opponent is preparing to attack. The logic is: better to strike than be struck. But no one is suggesting that Saddam is preparing to strike the United States. There are no indications that this is the case. Bush is instead making the case for preventive war, for removing today a threat that may be more menacing and difficult in the future. The administration may prefer to label its policy preemption because that is an easier case to make. But it is not an accurate use of the term as traditionally defined."

According to international law specialist Michael Byers, "there is almost no support for a right of anticipatory self-defence as such in present-day customary international law". To the extent that pre-emptive action is permissible under Article 51 of the UN Charter, it requires very strong evidence and there is a heavy burden of justification. The United States, for example, would have to be facing a specific, grave and imminent threat from Iraq which could only be averted by the use of force. According to the test established in the mid-nineteenth century by US Secretary of State Daniel Webster - criteria applied in 1945 at Nuremberg - the need for pre-emptive action must be "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation".

Otherwise a unilateral strike not authorised by the UN Security Council would be an act of aggression and a breach of international law. As claimed earlier, Iraq has a stronger case at this point in time (given US troop and equipment movements in Qatar, to say nothing of Bush's stated threats).

Christine Gray, author of a seminal modern text on the use of force under international law, argues that the reluctance of states "to invoke anticipatory self-defence is in itself a clear indication of the doubtful status of this jurisdiction for the use of force". According to Gray, in cases where Israel (Beirut 1968, Tunis 1985) and the US (Libya 1986, Iraq 1993, Sudan & Afghanistan 1998) have invoked anticipatory self-defence under Article 51 to justify attacks on their enemies, "the actions look more like reprisals, because they were punitive rather than defensive". The problem for the US and Israel, she argues, "is that all states agree that in principle forcible reprisals are unlawful".

By definition, pre-emptive strikes depend on conclusive intelligence. If the intelligence is wrong, as it was on 20 August 1998 when the Clinton Administration attacked the El Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan, mistakenly believing it was an Al Qaeda chemical weapons factory, the results can be catastrophic for the innocent - self-defence becomes aggression.

Interestingly, the US has not always supported the 'doctrine' of anticipatory self-defence, even when its closest allies invoked it. On 7 June 1981 unmarked F-16 aircraft of the Israeli airforce attacked and destroyed a nuclear reactor at Osirak in Iraq. The raid was authorised by Prime Minister Menachem Begin, but had been internally opposed by Yitzhak Hofi, the director of Mossad, and Major-General Yehoshua Saguy, chief of military intelligence, because there was no evidence that Iraq was capable of building a nuclear bomb. This was also the view of the International Atomic Energy Authority. At the time of the attack, Israel itself had been developing and accumulating nuclear weapons for thirteen years, primarily at its nuclear facility at Dimona.

In response to Israel's unprovoked pre-emptive strike, US Vice President George Bush Snr argued that sanctions had to be imposed on Israel. The US State Department condemned the bombing for its destabilising impact "which cannot but seriously add to the already tense situation in the area". The basis of Washington's concern, it must be said, was not its opposition to anticipatory self-defence per se but that Israel had violated the UN Charter by not exhausting all peaceful means for the resolution of the conflict - in truth no peaceful resolution had been sought. A few days after the raid, Ronald Reagan's White House announced that the planned delivery of four additional F-16s to Israel would be suspended in protest against the attack. The suspension was discretely lifted soon after.

In the current climate when pre-emptive attacks are being invoked as just responses to terrorism, it is worth recalling Princeton University historian Arno Mayer comments in Le Monde shortly after the 9/11 attacks:

"...since 1947 America has been the chief and pioneering perpetrator of "pre-emptive" state terror, exclusively in the Third World and therefore widely dissembled. Besides the unexceptional subversion and overthrow of governments in competition with the Soviet Union during the Cold War, Washington has resorted to political assassinations, surrogate death squads, and unseemly freedom fighters (eg, bin Laden). It masterminded the killing of Lumumba and Allende; and it unsuccessfully tried to put to death Castro, Khadafi, and Saddam Hussein... and vetoed all efforts to rein in not only Israel's violation of international agreements and UN resolutions but also its practice of pre-emptive state terror."

The question of oil: Access or control?

From the middle of last century Washington's foreign policy priority in the Middle East was to establish US control over what the State Department described as "a stupendous source of strategic power and one of the great material prizes in world history", namely the region's vast reserves of crude oil. Middle Eastern oil was regarded in Washington as "probably the richest economic prize in the world in the field of foreign investment", in what President Eisenhower described as the most "strategically important area in the world".

Control could be most easily maintained via a number of despotic feudal oligarchies in the Gulf which ensured the extraordinary wealth of region would be shared between a small number of ruling families and US oil companies, rather than European commercial competitors or the population of these states. Until recently the US has not required the oil for itself though it needed to ensure that the oil price stayed within a desirable range or band - not too low for profit making or too high to discourage consumption and induce inflation. A side benefit of this control over such a vital industrial resource is the influence it gives the US over economic development in rival countries such as Japan.

The greatest threat to this control has always been independent economic nationalism, especially nationalist politicians within the oil-producing region who, unlike the feudal oligarchies of the Gulf states, would channel wealth into endogenous development priorities rather than to US transnationals.

The US wants to secure reliable access to the world's second largest oil reserves, 112 billion barrels already known with possibly double that figure still to be mapped and claimed, thus depriving France and Russia of commercial advantages they have developed in Iraq over the last decade when US companies have been excluded. Just as importantly, access to Iraqi oil would also make the US less reliant upon - and therefore less supportive of - the regime in Saudi Arabia. The geo-political dynamics of the Middle East would be transformed.

If Russia and France maintain their inside track on Iraqi oil, then US corporations will be partially shut out from an enormous resource prize. No US administration is likely to accept that scenario. Meanwhile, Iraqi dissidents close to Washington have promised to cancel all existing oil contracts awarded to firms which do not assist the US to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Regime change in Baghdad could therefore be a bonanza for US oil companies and a disaster for Russian and French companies which have painstakingly built up their relations with the Iraqi dictator since the Gulf war. When Iraq's oil comes fully back on stream, as many as 5 million barrels of oil (or 6.5%) could be added to the world's daily supply. The implications of this for existing suppliers, the global spot price, economic growth, OPEC and the world's consumers are enormous.

This is not an issue of access, it is primarily about control. The US was just as concerned to control Middle East oil producing regions when it didn't depend on them at all. Until about 30 years ago, North America was the largest producer and the US scarcely used Middle East oil at all. Since then Venezuela has normally been the largest oil exporter to the United States. US intelligence projections suggest that in coming years the US will rely primarily on Western Hemisphere resources: primarily the Atlantic basin - Venezuela, Mexico, Brazil, probably Colombia, but also possibly Canada, which has huge potential reserves if they become economically competitive. Imported supplies accounted for 50% of US oil consumption in 2000 and by 2020 the figure is expected to rise to 66%.

Control over the world's greatest concentration of energy resources has two goals: (1) economic: huge profits for energy corporations, construction firms, arms producers, as well as petrodollars recycled to US treasury, etc; and (2) it's a lever of global geo-political control. For those trying to understand the motives behind US behaviour towards Iraq, it is impossible to underestimate the importance which oil has in the minds of Washington's strategic planners.

Attempts to discredit arguments about US access to Iraqi oil by claiming that it if it is interested in access to supplies it could more easily strike a deal with Saddam to satisfy its "thirst for oil" rather than overthrow him, entirely miss the crucial issue - control (The Australian, 2 January, 2003).

The credibility of the UN and Canberra

In September 2002, the Iraq issue in Australia suddenly centred on the honour and integrity of the UN, a subject not previously thought to have concerned the Howard Government. The international community "can't afford" to have its authority "brushed aside," argued foreign minister Alexander Downer, otherwise it will "look meaningless and weak, completely ineffectual". According to the Prime Minister, "if the United Nations Security Council doesn't rise to its responsibilities on this occasion it will badly weaken its credibility".

Former chief weapons inspector and Australian Ambassador to the UN, Richard Butler, argued that the Security Council faces the "challenge of its life" and its future would be "terminal" if it didn't hold Iraq to account this time. His predecessor at the UN, Michael Costello, agrees. "If the UN Security Council won't enforce its own resolutions against Iraq, the whole UN collective security system will be badly wounded, perhaps fatally."

One might have thought that the credibility of the UN Security Council had been badly weakened before now, say in Bosnia in 1993, Rwanda in 1994 or in East Timor in 1999 to cite only three recent cases when it failed to protect defenceless civilians from slaughter. Palestinians might wonder why the organisation's authority hasn't been "brushed aside" by Israel's consistent non-compliance with numerous Security Council resolutions calling for it's withdrawal from occupied territories, from resolution 242 in 1967 to resolution 1402 in March 2002.

Washington clearly has an idiosyncratic view about states complying with UN Security Council resolutions. If the US objects to non-compliance, the country is attacked. If the US favors non-compliance it either vetoes the resolution or disregards it, in which case it is as good as vetoed. Since the early 1970s, for example, the US has vetoed 22 draft Security Council resolutions on Palestine alone - this figure doesn't include 7 vetoes relating to Israel's invasion of Lebanon in the 1980s.

At the National Press Club and later on commercial talkback radio, Mr Howard seemed to think that because Israel was a democracy it shouldn't be judged by the same standards as Iraq. The future of the UN Security Council is not apparently terminal when its resolutions regarding Palestine and Israel are flouted. He should be reminded that democracies are just as obliged to observe international law as authoritarian dictatorships - there is no exemption. In fact we should expect a higher commitment to the rule of law from countries which pronounce their democratic credentials. Later, the argument shifted slightly. Israel wasn't obliged to observe UN Security Council Resolutions because they are only invoked under Chapter 6 of the UN Charter, rather than Chapter 7. This is a novel interpretation of international law, to put it kindly.

Despite rhetoric which portrays the UN as a foreign body at its moment of truth, it is nothing more than the states which comprise it - including Australia and the US. If it has become dysfunctional, it is those member states which manipulate it for their own individual purposes which are to blame. Those who think the credibility of the UN is suddenly at risk over the question of Iraq might like to explain why non-compliance now is suddenly a pretext for an imminent attack on Iraq when Baghdad has been in violation of UN Security Council resolutions for four years.

The Prime Minister asks if Iraq has "nothing to hide and nothing to conceal from the world community, why has it repeatedly refused to comply with the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council"?

Perhaps it's for the same reason that he restricts the UN from entering Australia's refugee detention centres? Or for the same reason Israel would not allow the UN to inspect its research institute at Nes Ziona near Tel Aviv which produces chemical and biological weapons, a stockpile of chemical agents Mr Howard claims he is "not aware" of.

If he had bothered to inquire, Mr Howard would have found that "there is hardly a single known or unknown form of chemical or biological weaponswhich is not manufactured at the institute", according to a biologist who held a senior post in Israeli intelligence. Nes Ziona does not work on defensive and protective devices, but only biological weapons for attack, claims the British Foreign Report.

The Prime Minister believes that Iraq's "aspiration to develop a nuclear capacity" might be a sufficient pretext for war. He has repeatedly claimed that "there is already a mountain of evidence in the public domain," though he didn't say what any of it actually proved beyond the existing public record, or how it established that the United States faces a specific, grave and imminent threat from Iraq which can only be averted by the use of force.

According to the Prime Minister, the mountain of evidence includes an IISS report which actually found Saddam was much less dangerous now than in the past when he was backed by the West. Scott Ritter, a former UN weapons inspector in Iraq, described the IISS report as little more than conjecture. "It's absurd. It has zero factual basis. It's all rhetoric...speculative and meaningless." There was a similar response to President Bush's speech to the United Nations General Assembly on 12 September, which outlined Iraq's breaches of international law. According to conservative Middle East expert Anthony Cordesman, Bush's speech was "clumsy and shallow" and little more than "a glorified press release." It offered little, if anything, that wasn't already on the public record. More a trough than a mountain.

At the UN on 13 September, Foreign Minister Downer claimed that "Iraq's flagrant and persistent defiance is a direct challenge to the United Nations, to the authority of the Security Council, to international law, and to the will of the international community". Four days later in the Australian Parliament Mr Downer repeated the charges, that Iraq "directly challenges the authority of the United Nations and international law," that it poses "a grave threat" to the world, that it "has flouted and frustrated UN resolutionspersistently defied legally binding obligations" and is therefore "a serial transgressor." Every one of these comments could also have been made about Israel. However, for reasons not explained there are to be no dossiers presented to the Parliament outlining its breaches of UN resolutions, it won't be called "a serial transgressor" of international law, nor has it's long history of defying Security Council resolutions ever meant that "the authority of the United Nations was at stake."

If Washington bypasses the Security Council or cannot get UN authorisation for a strike against Iraq but unilaterally attacks the country regardless, it will have done much greater damage to the UN's credibility than years of Iraqi non-compliance with Security Council resolutions.

Neither the Prime Minister nor the Foreign Minister have answered the key question: Where is the new evidence that makes military action against Iraq more urgent now than it has been since December 1998 when Richard Butler withdrew UNSCOM from Iraq? Prime Minister Howard claims the onus is on the critics of his Government's approach to articulate an alternative (The Australian, 1 January, 2003). What about the policy of containment his Government comfortably lived with between 1996 and 2002? As two conservative realists noted:

"The belief that Saddam's past behaviour shows that he cannot be contained rests on distorted history and dubious logic. In fact, the historical record shows that the United States can contain Iraq effectively - even if Saddam has nuclear weapons - just as it contained the Soviet Union during the Cold War. And that conclusion carries an obvious implication: there is no good reason to attack Iraq at this time" (Mearsheimer & Walt 2002).

***

Two powerful conservative/realist critiques of a US war against Iraq, which are nonetheless very sympathetic to Washington, are Steven E. Miller, 'Gambling on War: Force, Order, and the Implications of Attacking Iraq' in Carl Kaysen et al, War with Iraq: Costs, Consequences, and Alternatives (American Academy of Arts & Sciences, Committee on International Security Studies, Cambridge MA 2002); and John J. Mearsheimer & Stephen M. Walt, Can Saddam Be Contained? History Says Yes,(Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, Harvard University, Cambridge MA November 2002).

***

Scott Burchill is a lecturer in international relations at the School of Social & International Studies, Deakin University.
 
Just to be contrary I found this article:

The Many Compelling Reasons for War with Iraq

by Max Singer

When it comes to reasons for removing Saddam Hussein, America has an embarrassment of riches, but fortunately they all lead to the same strategic goal: liberating Iraq by replacing his Baathist totalitarian regime with an Iraqi-created government based on the rule of law.

One source of uncertainty about President Bush’s reasons for attacking Iraq is that people are asking two different kinds of questions: First, are the benefits of removing Saddam great enough to justify the dangers and costs of going to war? Second, do we have the right to attack Iraq because we think it will improve our security?

There are three sets of reasons why our security requires removing Saddam; any one of which would be sufficient. First is the danger presented by the combination of his growing ability to use biological and nuclear weapons, his hatred of America, and his demonstrated lack of concern for human life. As the president said, it is too dangerous to allow a government with Saddam’s record to have weapons that are so deadly. The New Republic argues this is reason enough; stop there, they say, and don’t confuse the issue with other reasons.

But there are other compelling reasons. Secondly, there is no chance that Arab and Muslim countries will feel they have to stop harboring terrorists and otherwise meet the needs of our war against terror if Saddam is not removed. While Saddam is in power he is an important support for all enemies of America; he is also a threat to any nearby government inclined to cooperate with us.

The third reason for removing Saddam is his connection to the terrorists who have been attacking America, especially al Qaeda. For the sake of the argument, we can assume that Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, not Iraq, were the moving forces in both World Trade Center attacks, and other attacks against Americans. But there is substantial evidence that Iraq has supported al Qaeda both before and after September 11, knowing that al Qaeda was engaged in attacking America, which is tantamount to an act of war against America. Al Qaeda, of course, has also been helped by Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and probably Syria. We went after Afghanistan first. Somebody must be second.

In a criminal trial, the government has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused committed the crime. No country can afford to use such a standard in deciding who has attacked it and needs to be stopped from attacking again. Some would argue that when 3,000 of our citizens are killed, we can and should act against the government we think is responsible even if we have little solid evidence—provided that the government is a dictatorship that in other ways speaks and acts like an enemy of America.

There is an easy way and a hard way to show our right to attack Iraq. The easy way is to emphasize that Iraq is a special case, maybe even a unique case, and therefore our right to attack Iraq isn’t a precedent that needs to make any other country afraid of us. We were authorized by the United Nations in 1991 to go to war with Iraq; as they have violated the terms of the ceasefire in that war, it is not over and we have the right to continue it. Iraq is also a country that has committed aggression against its neighbors twice, and used poison gas against both its own citizens and another country. While the principles of the Treaty of Westphalia may require that we generally ignore what a country does within its borders, they do not make an aggressor completely immune.

But if we don’t justify our action on the basis of Iraq’s practically unique outlaw status, we could argue, as Henry Kissinger did recently, that changes in technology and the world require some modification of the Westphalia principles. When an attack by a small country against a large one can result in as many as a million deaths, a country that has a reasonable basis for fearing such an attack has the right to act preemptively to prevent it. Or we can argue that our right of self-defense is enough to allow us to do whatever is necessary to compel countries to stop harboring terrorists. These claims are more ambitious than the claim that we have the right to act against Iraq because of what it has done in the past. And we would not apply these arguments to justify an attack against a democracy.

A good case, from the point of view of international law and morality, can be made for even these broader claims, provided that they are not carried to extremes. We would not want to argue that we have the right to attack a country, and certainly not a democracy, just because doing so would give us some small gain in the war against terror.

A number of veteran American statesmen, such as Brent Scowcroft, say, in effect, that while removing Saddam may be or may become essential, we should proceed prudently, making sure that all potentially necessary preparatory steps are taken. Among the concerns of these cautionary gray-beards are agreement of the American people, support from allies, acquiescence from Arab states, building up a large military force, and making reliable arrangements for the future governance of Iraq. Trying to get everything doubly assured in advance is the path of bureaucratic comfort, but prudence dictates the dangers of delay. When facing an enemy like Saddam, with America as vulnerable to terrorist attack as it is, every delay poses a great danger. Saddam’s ability to produce and deliver biological and nuclear weapons increases with time.

It will never be possible to convince all skeptics or to find a risk-free policy. But the message the Bush administration has delivered to Congress, the American people, and the world is clear: Saddam Hussein is building, and in the past has used, weapons of mass destruction. He has committed aggression against two of his neighbors; he has attempted to assassinate a former American president; and he actively cooperates with al Qaeda. He is not supported by his people or even by his own military forces, as he rules Iraq by totalitarian terror and torture. Because of his past actions, we and others have a right to remove him from power.

The safety of Americans requires that his regime be removed and Iraq be turned over to its people. Because the danger is increasing, and because the war against terror cannot proceed in the Middle East until he is removed, America must act quickly. America needs to liberate Iraq soon—for our safety, for the Iraqi people, and for the future of the Middle East.

This article appeared in the New York Sun on August 29, 2002, and is reprinted with permission.

If you are interested in Alqaeda and Iraq there is a link below it is not all about Iraq and focuses mainly on Alqaeda and Anthrax. It does seem to be backing up its statements however. It is a long article though. I offer it to you for your own consumption and to be a bit contrary.

http://cryptome.org/alqaeda-anthrax.htm
 
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Who knows, Jim!!

But at least now we've all had a chance to read it again, we can be sure that it's going to bring to light new opinions and a fresh open minded perspective on the issue. I feel certain that everyone is pleased to see it again and can't wait to dive in and get started!

*Look Daddy, a dead horse! Can I have a stick too?!*

Joby 🙄

((Oooh, sarcasm! Where'd I learn that?))
 
ROFLMAO... (thanks for that Joby....I needed a smile today)

Ven
 
welcome back biggles

i really mean that, btw.

now, i thought it was against posting rules to post whole artickles?
aren't we suposed to post a link, and short synopsis?

steve
p.s. the last i saw you you called me a racist, and wouldn't respond to my e-mails, pm's, etc.
 
Actually, he's not back. A thread that he started in January 2003 has been revived by Big Jim.

He may be lurking here and reading these responses to his thread, but a check of his profile shows that Biggles last posted in February 2003.

I find his signature picture highly offensive for several reasons, the most important reason being this: It shows an American flag that has been shredded by a bayonet.

I recognize and will defend his right to free speech, including the symbolic speech of that image. But I am also free to think and speak, and in particular free to form an opinion of him based on what he has chosen for his signature.

I have, and I will refrain from posting it.


(edited to correct error pointed out by JoBelle)
 
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HEHEHE
Hey, Ven...I'm trying to avoid saying something cheeky like, "IF ya think I made ya smile just now...just wait til I make ya laugh!" ....Trying....very...hard...😛

Milagros, I agree with your statements. In order to be nice, I'm shutting up too. LOL 😛 By the way though, it wasn't Kurtch who revived it. Kurtch replied to the thread back in January. Jim brought it back today. Just didn't want that on K's back. 😀

Joby
 
Apathy

is great marketing tool for the current administrations of the western world, who would like nothing better than for the public to think of these ongoing outrageous issues as "a dead horse".

Kurchatovium, the first two posts in this thread should be reversed; the article you posted is a good example of the spin that was already debunked in the title post. 😛

~Rose~ still watching the world.
 
Re: Apathy

Roseblossom said:
is great marketing tool for the current administrations of the western world, who would like nothing better than for the public to think of these ongoing outrageous issues as "a dead horse".
~Rose~ still watching the world.

Indeed, apathy is not only a convenient tool, but it's dangerous and contagious. I have a huge soapbox regarding political apathy that I've hopped on repeatedly here. I just shudder to think that some people who have such noble opinions on the world tend to do fuck all about it.

The deceased pony I refer to here, just for clarification sake, is the one that involves the same people, sharing the same views on the same board without change or interest in another person's views. Point in case that it is a thread that is almost 9 months old that was revived....lol

New conversation with others is always a good thing I think. What are your views Rose?
Joby
 
milagros317 said:
I find his signature picture highly offensive for several reasons, the most important reason being this: It shows an American flag that has been shredded by a bayonet.

I recognize and will defend his right to free speech, including the symbolic speech of that image. But I am also free to think and speak, and in particular free to form an opinion of him based on what he has chosen for his signature.

I don't know if you've noticed this Milagros, but that picture isn't Biggles showing his disdain for the American flag. Look closely and you'll see that soldier has Bill Clinton's face. It's a poke at Republicans who think Democrats are so far left as to be flag-burning communists. Biggles isn't being anti-American as you seem to think, he's showing his sense of humour at the most extreme examples of the American political right.

You might be further interested to know that it's because of you and what you said to him regarding his signature, that he left the TMF. There were several people around who he didn't mind having pointless arguments with, but he thought you were pretty cool. I think your total misunderstading of that picture in his sig made him lose what little faith in American humour he may ever have had.
 
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Re: Re: Apathy

JoBelle said:
Indeed, apathy is not only a convenient tool, but it's dangerous and contagious. I have a huge soapbox regarding political apathy that I've hopped on repeatedly here. I just shudder to think that some people who have such noble opinions on the world tend to do fuck all about it.

The deceased pony I refer to here, just for clarification sake, is the one that involves the same people, sharing the same views on the same board without change or interest in another person's views. Point in case that it is a thread that is almost 9 months old that was revived....lolJoby

Well pardon the hell out of me for commenting on a thread I hadn't seen before! 😡

On a more discussional note though, it's interesting that you should mention voter apathy Jo. When I get around to posting Part 5 of my series, I seriously want you to read it as it's especially relevant to you. Of course you know my opinion already. You get a choice of two people who were both selected by and are both controlled by the same people running the same system. Voting for either makes no difference in your life and creates no ripples in politics whasoever.

It's a system that has been dead for years and making the pilgrimage to the ballot boxes is only shoring it up and if that ain't whipping a dead horse, nothing is! We're trying to prevent a festering corpse from stinking the place to high heaven by trying to get it to eat. The democracy we have is a complete fallacy and to say that it gives us freedom is to be the victim of the biggest delusion in modern times.

I realise that this attack on our system may require a lot of defence and answering of inevitable questions. I promise you faithfully Joby-Wan, that I will do so, but I can't do it in this thread because it requires a huge post. I will give my entire view of the problem and it's possible solutions as soon as I can get round to posting the 4th in the series. As soon as Part 5 goes up, I promise you even more faithfully that I will PM you the thread URL through Yahoo and the TMF and you can read it and appraise it. As you've worked in local government and are a staunch believer in the reliability of the current system your opinion means more to me than someone who just agrees with me.


As an ending note; when I replied this thread had only a single reply. It was a subject that is ever more relevant in these days and I see nothing wrong in reviving it when there is something new to say on the subject. Something like this is an ever-evolving topic and I fail to see the reason why it's being brought up again at a later date should result in eye-rolling and finger-twirling.
 
Now, Jim....

Get off the defensive streak there love.

If you want to know what had my "eyes rolling," I'll tell ya. It wasn't the topic at hand. It was the fact that simply resurfaced something that garnered little response the first time around. Had you done something other than bump it, I could have understood. You didn't even respond to it. Seemed pointless to me. Let me repeat...seemed pointless to ME, and possibly to another though I won't speak for them.

To address the off-topic part of your post that was an advertisement for another of your threads....Since you've taken the opportunity to bash me for my belief that our current system is not as bad as you "conspiracy theory" approach would have everyone believe, I will tell you again where I stand.

I believe the current system works on a local level. Your local system and ours vary in procedure. You seem to have, from my limited education, a lot more appointed officials than ours allows. That makes a huge difference in what voter apathy does in relation to lifestyles. Now, as far as presidential elections....hell....until something better comes along...I'll work with what we have anyday rather than have our own Castro in office. Yes, yes, I know..Bush, Clinton...ALL of our leaders throughout history were just as bad. We Americans are repsonsible for killing a million Iraqi babies I heard you comment once.

Sorry, I digress....

All in all, I was just irriated with the resurfacing of a thread without anything beind added to it. Just like people who copy and paste whole articles to a post without some kind of comment. I've begun lurking rather than posting because of things like that. It's been easier for people to let others' words represent them and that makes conversation impossible.You've made it out as a personal attack on your beliefs and values. Maybe I'd see if differently if I ever read your threads about everything under the sun. But to be honest with you Jim, I can only digest half of what you write and I agree with probably less than 1% of that. I never got past thread one. I doubt I'll get to number 4 or 5. It's just not my cuppa tea you could say.

Now that we've got that cleared up. I'd like to recap so there is no confusion.

I found it tiring to see a post resurface with nothing added to it. Boring.

And ALL of the rest is a response that should satisfy your intial comments directed toward me. If you care to continue this, please feel free to email me at [email protected] as it's now taking up space in a thread that it should not be.

Thanks,
Joby
 
jim please hurry with part 5!!!

oh my friend, i'm champing at the bit, to rip a new asshole in that one! lol!
i'm salivating at the chance to show how wrong you are on this one!
i'll be happy to show the differences between the political parties here in america, and i bet i can show a thing or two about your british versions.

ooo look at the goose bumps!

steve
p.s. interesting that you say biggles posting signature was anti-right. i took it as an anti-left pic., showing they don't love our country, and it's flag. it is because it has clintons face that i came to this conclusion. like it came out of an nra magazine.
 
This thread died a long time ago. Most of the stuff isn't even relevant anymore, time-wise. If you want to keep discussing this, that's fine. But let's keep it civil, ok? It can easily disappear again. 😎
 
Re: jim please hurry with part 5!!!

areenactor said:
oh my friend, i'm champing at the bit, to rip a new asshole in that one! lol!
i'm salivating at the chance to show how wrong you are on this one!
i'll be happy to show the differences between the political parties here in america, and i bet i can show a thing or two about your british versions.

ooo look at the goose bumps!

I'm glad you're that enthusiastic about it my friend. 🙂 Your disagreement with me on most of the issues mentioned was the main reason I asked you to view them.

I think though, that trying to show superficial differences between the Dems and Reps will go closer to proving my point. On the surface, Stalin and Hitler were classical political opposites. If you weren't in either's good books though, living in either country would have been equally as shitty. As I said elsewhere, both were into cenralised control, military dictatorship, ethnic cleansing and concentration camps. Neither was any different from the other when you strip the skin from the body and examine the skeleton. I believe it's the same with current politics, although less extreme in variations. Any comments you have will only be good for the debate. I'm sure your participation will be good. 🙂

steve
areenactor said:
p.s. interesting that you say biggles posting signature was anti-right. i took it as an anti-left pic., showing they don't love our country, and it's flag. it is because it has clintons face that i came to this conclusion. like it came out of an nra magazine.
Biggle's signature was taken from www.whitehouse.org . I gather it was meant to reflect an exaggerated view that Republicans have of Democrats. Quite a sophisticated kind of satire, you might say. Picturing Bill Clinton in a US Army uniform and shredding Old Glory with a bayonet is too extreme even for Republican humour.😉 It's the sort of lampooning parody the web-site does and to be frank, it gells quite closely to what I remember of Biggle's SOH. Seeing as Biggles was hardly likely to do something that could be taken as support of the right in American politics, that seems to be the likeliest explanation. I think Milagros took it as a sentiment from Biggles of anti-American feeling though; rather than seeing it as a strike against the extremities Republicans can go to in their view of Democrats and liberals being leftist.

Here's another classic example of the web-site's mickey taking of Republican style critiscism of Democrats...
anniegun.jpg


And another...

dockmonkeys.jpg


You see what I mean? This isn't poking fun at the left. It's lampooning how extreme the right can be in it's condemnation of the left. That's what Biggles was expressing; not a hatred of America as I think Milagros thought. ( Correct me if I'm wrong Mil mate. 🙂 )
 
thanks for the explanation jim

when viewing other examples from that site it's easier to see they are lampooning the right, and not the left.
but when only seeing one pic, esp. one of bill clintion in a ww1 army uniform, it's easy to imagine it's a poke at the liberals. i mean when you consider how both bill and hillary used to spit on the marine guard detail members when they were in a bad mood, the sight of bill in a uniform has to be taken as a joke! and his support of flag desecration is well known. so it fits.

steve
 
JoBelle said:
Now, Jim....

Get off the defensive streak there love.
Consider it gotten off and frying in the pan. 🙂 Sorry if I came across as so ratty. It's no excuse, but I just felt riled because I felt you wouldn't have reacted that way to a thread that agreed with your view, rather than poked fun at it.


JoBelle said:
If you want to know what had my "eyes rolling," I'll tell ya. It wasn't the topic at hand. It was the fact that simply resurfaced something that garnered little response the first time around. Had you done something other than bump it, I could have understood. You didn't even respond to it. Seemed pointless to me. Let me repeat...seemed pointless to ME, and possibly to another though I won't speak for them.

Well sorry if I was unoriginal too. I wold think you speak for more than just yourself. I know neither of us can speak for anyone else, but I think it's likely.

JoBelle said:

I believe the current system works on a local level. Your local system and ours vary in procedure. You seem to have, from my limited education, a lot more appointed officials than ours allows. That makes a huge difference in what voter apathy does in relation to lifestyles. Now, as far as presidential elections....hell....until something better comes along...I'll work with what we have anyday rather than have our own Castro in office.
That worries me just a bit. suggest anything other than what it the current status quo and a lot of americans automatically assume you're a communist or a anarchist. You already have a dictatorship over there, which is why I believe in change. Not anarchy or the Devil's sputum of communism. Just a change to a government that presents choices to the people and gives them a better say in their lives.

As for the second bit. Well if I think a change in the system would cause a huge change for human wellbeing, I'm not going to help a crappy, failing, pile-of-pants system that's being dying on it's arse for decades, last any longer. You say "until something better comes along". Well it's people like me who are trying to bring that day closer! Holding up a house built on sand is not going to help that effort any though, as it keeps the current in place. My personal belief is that the phenomenon that has become known as "voter apathy" is not the all-horrifying terror that our media paints it to be, (which of course it would paint that way, seeing as how the media is owned and controlled by the same people who own and control our alleged "leaders") that will cause everything we know to come crashing down in chaos. I think it's a sign that people have finaly woken up to the fact that whoever they vote for, the same people hidden from the public view will be dictating the policy, deciding who gets candidate nomination, who gets the publicity and the funding and ultimately, what their policies once they're in office will be. "Voter apathy" is for me, a sign that better times are on the way. It's not dangerous, it's not a shame. It's our bloody saviour! LOL

JoBelle said:
Yes, yes, I know..Bush, Clinton...ALL of our leaders throughout history were just as bad. We Americans are repsonsible for killing a million Iraqi babies I heard you comment once.

Again, a very worrying and increasingly American trait. Accuse people like George Senior of killing innocent Iraqis through a terror campaign easilly the equal of any of Saddam's efforts, and they (Americans) assume you're accusing the whole country; including them and their friends. No, non, nope, nada, no-how, no way. Following that logic I would be accusing myself of the killings that have been done by the UK forces in the name of "freedom".
This is a classic reason why I support people changing their view of themselves an the world. We are all One! We are all each other and our destiny and our fate is inextricably bound together. Not just Americans and Brits either, but Iraqis, Afghanis, Iranians, Japanese, Australians... yadda yadda yadda. Even though the people who masquerade as being our leaders do their best to deny it, they are part of us too. They've done their best to make us believe otherwise. They've given us different religions, countries, political parties and flags to do it. It's about time the people of the world saw through the smoke.

JoBelle said:
All in all, I was just irriated with the resurfacing of a thread without anything beind added to it. Just like people who copy and paste whole articles to a post without some kind of comment. I've begun lurking rather than posting because of things like that. It's been easier for people to let others' words represent them and that makes conversation impossible.You've made it out as a personal attack on your beliefs and values. Maybe I'd see if differently if I ever read your threads about everything under the sun. But to be honest with you Jim, I can only digest half of what you write and I agree with probably less than 1% of that. I never got past thread one. I doubt I'll get to number 4 or 5. It's just not my cuppa tea you could say.

That's fine. 🙂 It does illustrate a wonderful example of my philosophy of "it's useless to fight fire with fire" though. Complaining about this thread's lack of worth has only ensured that it has remained at the top of Page 1 of General Discussion. If you thought such a thing was against the best interests of the Forum, would'nt it have been more effective to drop a line to a Moderator and ask if they could keep an eye on it, so it could be locked if it got too frivolous? I'm not being sassy Jo, just asking a question that seems relevant.

You may never have got past thread 1, but that comment about over a million Iraqi children dying was in thread 3. 😀 Do I have a secret fan here? 😛

Okay, so you agree with less than a hundreth of it. Good! Dammit but I like to be disagreed with! The problem is, no-one who has ever disagreed with me has ever posted with a full list of reasons why my information is crap. The only person who has come close is the ever-reliable Hal. His words has provoked some very intelligent discourse between the two of us, but no-one else (apart from a half-hearted attempt at mass-stereotyping by Myriads) has bothered. If you find what I'm writing to be against your train of logic, puh-leeeeeeezzzee say why! I'm not someone who only seeks replies from fans and people who agree. I like the discourse. So much so, that I even PM'ed Steve (areenactor) the thread URL's and asked him specifically to PM me or post everything he thought I had wrong. I specifically chose him, because him and I are political opposites and when he puts his mind to it, he can delve as deeply into an argument as anyone.

Part 4 (the next one to be posted) probably won't be of much interest to you Jo, as it deals with the facts behind 9/11 and why the official explanation is such a humongous lie. Although the info will be pertinent to any person, it'll be very like the previous three. i.e. Long-winded, detailed, slow, and harder to get through than a Japanese version of War and Peace. If you can bring yourself to read it for an hour or so, then I think would prove rewarding for people to hear the true facts. (Easilly verifiable.) Part 5 is the one that I'd like you to read as it's the "Just what the hell are we supposed to do about all this?" thread, that several readers have asked for. I'm going to write in it about all the things we can actually do to make sure the Elite stop manipulating us as they have done and what we can do to impove our poltical and economical systems. When I post that thread Jo, I promise you you'll be the first one I e-mail the thread URL to. 🙂 Even if you disagree with my views in (very possible) anything you have to say on the subject would be very welcome.
 
Re: thanks for the explanation jim

areenactor said:
when viewing other examples from that site it's easier to see they are lampooning the right, and not the left.
but when only seeing one pic, esp. one of bill clintion in a ww1 army uniform, it's easy to imagine it's a poke at the liberals. i mean when you consider how both bill and hillary used to spit on the marine guard detail members when they were in a bad mood, the sight of bill in a uniform has to be taken as a joke! and his support of flag desecration is well known. so it fits.

steve

My pleasure mate. 🙂

I hope it also explains the situation to you too Milagros? It was largely because of your reaction to him, that Biggles left, so I hope you realise that he wasn't being a flag-burner; just a satirist.
 
a couple questions jim, if you please?

ok you say voter apathy is good, cause you're hoping it will lead to a different/better system. i too don't mind voter apathy, cause it means the uninformed, uneducated, lazy, aren't bothering to come out and be counted. that makes my voice heard even louder!

now though, what exactly do you mean by a different system? do you mean a change in the faces, and parties? or to you want the whole system chucked out the window, and no more democratic republic? pray, what system would you have us replace it with?

next you assert that we are all one, not just the americans, and brits, but the whole worlds peoples. i don't buy into that just yet. when we really start to colonize space, and possible meet other societies in the universe, then i think we'll all start to view all the people of earth as one.
steve
 
BigJim said:
I don't know if you've noticed this Milagros, but that picture isn't Biggles showing his disdain for the American flag. Look closely and you'll see that soldier has Bill Clinton's face. It's a poke at Republicans who think Democrats are so far left as to be flag-burning communists. Biggles isn't being anti-American as you seem to think, he's showing his sense of humour at the most extreme examples of the American political right.


I did read your explanation of the picture when you posted it many months ago. I did realize, after seeing that the "soldier" was really Bill Clinton, that the picture is from a left wing website and is intended to mock the right wing's over-the-top exaggerated criticisms of Bill Clinton. I do recognize that some of Clinton's critics have indeed engaged in vastly overstated criticisms of him. And yet:

I do not care for what purpose the image of an intentionally shredded American flag is used. It is offensive to me in any context, used for any purpose. It is very highly offensive.

Let me try to make this clear to you. If somebody published a drawing of my mother with her throat cut, and claimed it was drawn to mock the extreme elements of a political party, I would not care about the purpose. I would not care about the context. I would not care that the artist had nothing again my mother, and did not actually wish to see her murdered. I would still find it highly offensive.




You might be further interested to know that it's because of you and what you said to him regarding his signature, that he left the TMF. There were several people around who he didn't mind having pointless arguments with, but he thought you were pretty cool. I think your total misunderstading of that picture in his sig made him lose what little faith in American humour he may ever have had.

I am interested but astonished, in that I never said anything to him directly.

I posted my criticism of his signature in a thread started by Shinning Ice, which was deleted within a day. Apparently he read the post before it was deleted. I had then, and have now, no objections to his being a member of this forum and posting here.

I can only say that I am astonished that my opinion would cause him to leave.

(edited to correct a misspelling on Sept. 29)
 
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Jim,
I'm not going to debate you here. I told you that already. I asked you to email me at the address provided. BUT...apparently that point didn't get through to you. I don't have your email addy, so I will post this here and hope it makes a point without being ugly.

It's a worthless task to debate you on any point in that you throw your subtle darts at people who disagree with your opinion that you claim is based on so many countless hours of investigation and educated study. I desire no part of that in visiting the TMF. I simply fail to believe the facts as you present them. Somehow that makes me wrong. That orders my place in one of your decidedly "American" traits that disturb the wise minds.

Jim, I just disagree.
I don't buy it.
I can't accept that you think only Americans disagree with you.
That doesn't make me a weak kook who follows blindly. That makes me someone who is doing the best they can within the generally accepted boundaries of public knowledge. I did do my civic duty in local politics. I enjoyed it. I had some measure of success and I left it. I feel that backs up my personal opinion on some things. I feel no need to have your validation. I will not (because I so choose to avoid the task) and cannot change your perceived history of the political world. I leave that for mightier minds and more brilliant keepers of fact like you. Good luck with that. I do however ask that you not insult me. I ask that not darken my contribution or opinion simply because it does not meet with your standards. I do not claim to have all the facts about the topics we're addressing, and do not claim that all of what you say is false. However, you are not the keeper all things true or false....and I will not have a discussion with someone who presents himself as such. It's not a smart move....you appreciate that don't you?

If you would speak to me as someone whose opinion might be as valid as your own, then we could talk. But that won't happen based on history. You don't see how you come across. You failed to recognize that simply by further promoting of your other threads when you know I do not have any desire to read them.

Indeed, controversial topics are often fertilizer for anyone with a seed to plant, but it still doesn't mean it's a healthy and prosperous crop. I don't like them. Sue me. It's not a personal attack. It's a personal preference. Yes, I did read that "baby killer" post after someone commented to me what was said. I didn't like it. I couldn't believe you, of all people...someone I like and respect would go so far in a direction such as that. It floored me frankly. Rather than add to that feeling about you that I'm not crazy about....I avoid it and focus on the fun and witty guy that I first knew.

Don't ask me to read those threads. Don't ask me to like it when you go off what I like to call "the deep end" into things that I try very hard to avoid commentary on simply because I hate being rude to you.

Just let us agree to disagree.

And if you have to revive a thread....at least say something in it. That's all this was really about. I'm just very sad that it had to be more.🙁

Joby....if you must dissect my post and respond bit by bit, at least put little hearts on each one so I know you love me. 😛
 
Re: a couple questions jim, if you please?

areenactor said:
ok you say voter apathy is good, cause you're hoping it will lead to a different/better system. i too don't mind voter apathy, cause it means the uninformed, uneducated, lazy, aren't bothering to come out and be counted. that makes my voice heard even louder!

Heh heh. What a thought. 😉

"Apathy" is the name it is given by the media in an attempt to demonise and castigate it. True apathy is bad, but I think this is something different. I think it's people protesting at being given no true choice in the way their lives are run. People are walking away from the system in droves because it's rigged and unrepresentative.

areenactor said:
now though, what exactly do you mean by a different system? do you mean a change in the faces, and parties? or to you want the whole system chucked out the window, and no more democratic republic? pray, what system would you have us replace it with?

I believe that democracy can be fair and representative. I don't believe what we are given is true democracy though. Having said that I wouldn't undermine what we have with violence or subversion because that threatens society and it's core values. I'm a firm believer in law and order forming the basic structure of any society. Any change that would occur has to happen peacefully and constructively or it's doomed to become the same as what it's replacing; faulty. The names of parties don't matter really, whatever they're called, so long as they serve the people who elect them and pay their wages through taxes, I'd be happy. I've thought long about it and I can't see any system this side of heaven that'd work better than democracy. Right now though we're given a choice of two, or at the most, three "faces". All the support behind those faces, and indeed the faces themselves, attend the same meetings and private groups. It's at gathering like those of the Bilderberg Group that real policy decisions are made. In 1995 it was decided early on that John Major wasn't following his orders closely enough with regard to monetary union and closer political integration in the EU. Just weeks later there was a leadership challenge which he barely won. The message was simple. "Play the game, or you're out!" That's what I want to change; the way the people who are presented as running world affairs are puppets on string and the real power brokers are unelected and unnacountable. I would also change any shred of "51 people can tell 49 what to do" as I don't think of that as freedom either. While democracy by it's nature bows to the majority, I don't think our system preserves the rights of the minorities enough.

areenactor said:
next you assert that we are all one, not just the americans, and brits, but the whole worlds peoples. i don't buy into that just yet. when we really start to colonize space, and possible meet other societies in the universe, then i think we'll all start to view all the people of earth as one.
steve

If people bought into it, it'd happen over night. That's quite literally all it would take. If you think it and believe in it, it becomes a physical reality. The whole world is a physical reflection about what we think of ourselves. Whenever something particularly pisses you off about someone else, it's because you can see it in yourself; most probably you see it sub-consciously. If it was a mannerism that wasn't some subtle part of yourself, you wouldn't even notice it. I think trying to change your life by changing everything around you is like trying to change your appearance by altering your reflection in a mirror. If enough "common" people change themselves to the degree that they believe everyone is part of them as much as their own siblings are, then the transformation from prison to paradise would occur like lightening. The "we are all One" thing is coming from a spiritual perspective, as well as a physical one. I think it's vitally important that more people realise it. Just imagine if Saddam had decided to make war on the Ayatolla and ordered his troops into action and most of his army had turned around and said "Get stuffed ya tached numpty! I've got cousins who live in Iran." Further imagine Iranian troops saying the same thing about their Iraqi relatives to Homineh. (Or however you spell his bloody name.) In one stroke the evil of two fanatic leaders would have been reduced to the level of two stroppy children having an argument in a school yard. The power in a pyramid is definately at the bottom. Wars, famine and all the rest can only happen if Arabs, Jews, Africans, Americans, Germans, Brits and all the rest swallow the lie they're constantly fed, that they're different from one another and allow themselves to be manipulated into killing and hating each other because the people who posture as their leaders tell them they have to fear each other. Every individual person, country or creed has their own way of expressing their humanity, but they all look the same from the inside.
 
milagros317 said:
I do not care for what purpose the image of an intentionally shredded American flag is used. It is offensive to me in any context, used for any purpose. It is very highly offensive.

Let me try to make this clear to you. If somebody published a drawing of my mother with her throat cut, and claimed it was drawn to mock the extreme elements of a political party, I would not care about the purpose. I would not care about the context. I would not care that the artist had nothing again my mother, and did not actually wish to see her murdered. I would still find it highly offensive.

I'm with you, but still a bit confused about the political thingy. As it was a leftist dig at Republican hard-liners who had publicly called Clinton everything from a flag-burner to a communist, is it the satirical leftists you are annoyed at for the use of Republican extremeism in their poster, or the Republican critics for erroneously using the "flag-burner" analogy? If it's the latter, then Biggles wouldn't have been the one you had a beef with as he wasn't the one who drew the picture; only used it. I mean if certain rightist hard-liners are going to use the "flag-burning" label, it's not a surprise if leftist humour pictorially depicts it.

On a personal level, I have to say I find it mildly shocking that you find a satire based on Bill Clinton defacing Old Glory, to be on the same level of tastelesness as one of your mother having her throat cut. Of course, we're all entitled to our own personal opinion and I know just how fiercely proud of their country (and ergo, their flag) most Americans are. Certainly it means more to them than Europeans and Brits. ( I consider Brits to be seperate from Europeans. 😉 ) Not that we don't have pride in ourselves and our countries; we just imbue it in things less ephemeral than our flag. I've seen arabs protesting against our involvement in the Gulf, burning the Union Jack in the streets. My response was a wry smile, a shake of the head and a fervent hope that the world learns from it's mistakes as soon as possible. I guess I'd rather they burnt a flag than burn me. lol


milagros317 said:
I am interested but astonished, in that I never said anything to him directly.

I posted my criticism of his signature in a thread started by Shinning Ice, which was deleted within a day. Apparently he read the post before it was deleted. I had then, and have now, no objections to his being a member of this forum and posting here.

I can only say that I am astonished that my opinion would cause him to leave.

(edited to correct a misspelling on Sept. 29)

Maybe Biggles was feeling sensitive that day? Who knows for sure? I doubt he feels you object to his presence. Given what you've said, I think it's more likely (I havn't asked him directly or anything) that he found your unwillingness to find humour in it simply because it used the flag as the object of the satire, as quite disappointing. (As it was Biggles who pointed me to that comic strip I posted about SAPS, I think it probably was. I may be taking his name in vain here though.) I think biting humour was very much part of his posting "character", so he felt like he'd be better off gone if it was going to cause such an adverse reaction in so many people.

Anyway, I doubt he'll be back(at least for the foreseeable future), so I guess it's a moot point. Shame really, because through the humour, he had quite a lot of insight into many things.
 
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