Question about religion

[Biggles of 266]

Someone asked me this and I couldn't answer, so I thought maybe Strel, Omega or another religious member could help me out.

Say you live a good life, helping those less fortunate, loving your neigbour, being generally kind to animals etc, and you live a happy life until one day you die. However, you don't belong to a religion. So you're a really nice guy, but not christian, jewish, jehovah's witness...

Say the christians were right and there's a huge perfect heaven. Will you be accepted? Or will all the unbelievers who are great people go to hell with the sinners?


by the way, does anyone have anything to say about jehovah's witnesses? My boss is a witness and he wants to argue religion with me. I know they don't accept blood transfers for their sick children. Anything else I should know before I discuss with this guy?

Biggles

 

[omega]

Say you live a good life, helping those less fortunate, loving your neigbour, being generally kind to animals etc, and you live a happy life until one day you die. However, you don't belong to a religion. So you're a really nice guy, but not christian, jewish, jehovah's witness...

Say the christians were right and there's a huge perfect heaven. Will you be accepted? Or will all the unbelievers who are great people go to hell with the sinners?

Biggles

Many people ask this question. At the heart of this question is an issue of fairness. Is it fair for God to keep a good person out of heaven just because they refused to follow a certain religion? I can help to put this issue into perspective by asking this question: How good is good enough? You point to this issue when you write, "being generally kind to animals etc," What is being generally kind? Does it mean I don't abuse animals but if my neighbor's dog digs up my petunias, look out.

Also a follow up question should be: Who gets to decide what good enough is? If it is up to each individual then Adolf Hitler could say about himself that he was good enough to get into heaven. If it is up to another human I don't trust them. They don't know if I've been good enough.

Obviously if there is a God then that God should get to decide how good is good enough. If Jesus Christ is the Son of God and he was sinless then how can any of us match that? The answer is that Jesus took the punishment for our sins. That punishment is seperation from God. He did not deserve that punishment but took it for us. When we put our faith in Jesus his perfection is given to us and we are then good enough for heaven. Not because of what we did or what we did not do but because Jesus is perfect.

Also we need to consider what heaven and hell really are. Heaven is being in the presence of God. Something we choose when we put our faith in Jesus. Hell is being apart from God. Something we choose when we decide that we don't need a relationship with Jesus. Remember I have written this before, "God is a gentleman. He does not force us into heaven or hell. If we say that we don't need God then God will allow us to go into eternity without him. I suppose you could say that God gives us exactly what we want."

 

[TicklingDuo]

Very well put, Omega.

As a Roman Catholic, after much prayer and reflection, I find that I personally believe what the Church teaches. Let me point out that what I believe is what the Church REALLY teaches and not what many THINK she teaches. Omega is right in line with me as to the nature of heaven and hell. He's also in line with the Church's teaching on who goes where.

However, there's one thing he didn't mention that I'd like to add. That is the fact that we make a final decision AFTER we die. I believe that, when we die, all truth about our own lives, the nature of God and the world around us is revealed to us. It is with that knowledge that WE make our decision (as Omega stated) of whether or not to accept God/Jesus and be with Him.

Many of our brothers and sisters from other Christian backgrounds do not feel that purgatory exists...that we immediately go to heaven if that's what we choose. The difference lies in our understanding of what Jesus did for us. I believe that He died to save me and that His own punishment takes away the penalty for my sins. On this, we agree. It is the timing in which our beliefs differ.

The fact that many may make the choice to accept God even after living "sinful" or "unbelieving" lives is why there's a purgatory. I believe that purgatory is not a place of punishment...as many believe. Rather, it is a place of preparation where we are given time to more fully accept what (or more importantly, Whom) we have chosen and thus be able to stand in His presence. Scripture teaches that nothing unpure can enter the presence of God. It also teaches that it is the will of God that ALL be saved and join Him in glory. Purgatory is that place of purification/preparation where we prepare to share in His presence.

So...to answer the original question...WE decide where we're going. God simply honors our choice and provides accordingly. Even in the final denial of Him, our free will is honored.

As to the other portion of your question...Though I've spoken with a few JWs over the years, I don't have an appropriately defined understanding of exactly what they believe and why to address that part of your question. When they would visit me, I would place a condition on sharing with them...that condition being that I would hear them out only if they would also hear me out. It was my impression that they were not allowed to enter into debate, but simply to preach what they themselves believe. If that's true, it may be something to keep in mind.

Hopefully, someone else here will be able to address this more fully.

Ann

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

"Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

The requirements for getting into Heaven are simple!

1. Accept that you are not perfect and that you need God.
2. Ask God to forgive you!

It is nothing you can earn by living a life that is "Good", because no matter how good your life may have been, it was not perfect.

God is perfect, that is what Holy means. And being Holy God cannot be in the presence of anything that is not perfect or Holy. And since we are not Holy by ourselves, we need something to become Holy in order not to be separated from God.

So God sent down his Son, who died on the cross, so that His blood would cover all of our sin. In this God is then able to view us as Holy and then we can once again be together with God.

It is NOTHING that you can earn.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Christ Jesus." Romans 6:23

 

[ShiningIce]

I think if you just do what deep down inside you know is right then you're going to be as close to holy as a human being can get.

 

[Krokus]

Well

I have personally found no reason to "worship" God with every bone in my body. I believe that there is a God, but I don't think he is as great as he is built up to be.

 

[shark]

Without knowing the actual verse or quote,the Bible does address this.The New Testament says that a nonbeliever who lives an exemplary live shall be noticed.

 

[Moses25]

Without knowing the actual verse or quote,the Bible does address this.The New Testament says that a nonbeliever who lives an exemplary live shall be noticed.

Here here!! 😀

Btw, I am a Born Again Hindustani Buddist-Muslim-Jedi.

Ask me anything...

"Oommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

The Bible also says...

"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord."

So someday, you're right. Even the non-believer will be noticed!

 

[guitman69]

Well, I have no comments as to the first part of your post, except to say the it seems most the the true believers here believe that the good non-believer will not get into heaven.

I did want to say this though. Don't argue religion with a Jahovah's Witness! From my personal experience (and I've known quite a few, even lost a best friend to the religion) they are the most closed minded group ever. They 'know' they're right, and there is nothing you can do to change their minds.

I don't know this guy, but I think the only reason he wants to talk to you about religion is to try and convert you.

 

[Iggy pop]

I look at this way. If your religion gives you comfort go with it. If you religion causes you boredom, pain, or you just dont like it get rid of it. If you worry that your religion is the wrong one stop worrying. If your lack of religion makes you feel empty find a religion that feels the void in your life. If your lack of religion frees you then keep on non-believing. No matter what religion you are there is always somebody who thinks you are going to hell, but then again would you want to go to heaven with those people? Heaven? Hell? Meet the new boss just the same as the old boss. By the way if you do find yourself in Hell, Cheer up. I hear they have better music there.

 

[Biggles of 266]

you're right about that, guitman. I listened politely while he made his points, but then as soon as I said something about science, he walked away and said 'I don't know anything about that science rubbish'. It's impossible to argue with him... he just gets louder and louder until you give up!

Biggles

 

[JoBelle]

I'm not one to knock another's religious views, as I hold a basic faith that tells me "You never know until you get there." This questions SEEMS to be addressing the Christian faith, but my views are outside of it.

In regard to my interpretation of Christianity, and thanks to the nice girl here in our TK community who once told me I was "going to hell no doubt" since I didn't follow Jesus, the basic premise is that unless you confess Jesus as your Lord and Savor, you just aren't gettin' into the club in the sky. *shrug* Faith is a silly thing....it never can please more than one person in the same way.

I have what I call the "Bicycle Wheel Theory of Religion." LOL

Let's picture a bike wheel.
The hub in the center is "God."
The outside rim is humanity.
The spokes? Let's call those the paths to God.
In the end, I think we all end up in the same place. As long as you're true to your "spoke" 😉 you'll be one a steady path. Go spoke-hoppin' or waste your time trying to break another's "spoke" and you're just keeping yourself farther from center. I know this has yet to gain popularity, but I really think the Church of the Holy Bike Tire will catch on. *smile* It's just going to church in those funny spandex shorts in winter that will be a problem. 😀

Joby

 

[Haltickling]

A different outlook...

It seems that most monotheistic religions preclude non-believers from their heaven, and that’s the biggest problem I’ve got with any organized religion. So if you’re a Muslim or Hindu, you haven’t got the merest chance to get to a Christian defined heaven. The only monotheistic religion that allows believers of a different monotheistic faith into their heaven is Islam; Christians and Jews are permitted to go to the lowest of seven heavens if they never tried to convert a Muslim, and if they haven’t committed a mortal sin. Islam respects Abraham and Jesus as Allah’s prophets, but Muhammad as the last prophet overrides all their teachings. According to Islam, Jesus will even proclaim the beginning of the Eternal Judgment Day, but Muslims don’t accept him as God’s son. Still, they discard several billions of Buddhists, Hindus, or other faiths as “infidels”; they will end up in Islam’s deepest hell.

Hindus believe in many gods, as well as in reincarnation. The way you lead your present life eventually decides about your next incarnation: If you are “good”, you’ll be reborn in a higher caste, or you may actually become a minor deity yourself. If your life is considered “evil”, you might get reborn in a lower caste, as a crippled person, an animal, or even a rock. That’s their concept of heaven and hell. They believe in a “Nether World”, but that’s only for the dead during the period between two incarnations.

Buddhists believe in a completely different concept. They, too, believe in reincarnation 40 days after your death, but for them, reincarnation itself is the saddest thing that can happen to them. If they manage to lead a life of enlightenment (very abbreviated description), you’ll be able to escape the eternal cycle of reincarnations, and you’ll reach “Nirvana”, the Great Void. They don’t consider Buddha a God, he was merely their greatest teacher and founder of their faith.

So who really decides what is wrong or right? If Christians are right, all the billions of others will never reach heaven. Buddhists can’t even be “near to God”, as omega described heaven, because they don’t have a God. Personally, I think I’m just too dumb to make that decision which destines my eternity myself. I don’t believe in any ‘Supreme Being’; instead I try to lead a peaceful life, hurt others as little as possible, and respect all those who believe in one or the other concept of life as long as they don’t hurt me or others.

This lengthy review is meant to make you aware of the considerable amount of entirely different concepts for life, and that the predominance of Christians here in this forum is not nearly representing the whole world…

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

Sometimes I think that we look to much at our own thoughts.

You're right Hal, it's not any easy subject. Many times we do not know what the true answer is, and most likely, until we die, we won't.

However, there is a big key verse in the Bible that people always forget...

"While in no way is that a possibility with man, with God all things are possible."

Now, what I am saying here is that while we can't explain who gets into Heaven, God can... and He most likely is NOT casting out all of these people of other religions who truly are searching for the right God! He loves us all, and they are simply struggling to find Him, He won't let that happen!!!

 

[QBWeaver]

I was raised a Roman Catholic and went to parocial school. I was told, back then, that only a Catholic would go to Heaven. That really scared me. My best girlfriend wasn't Catholic and she was really nice. I tried and tried to get her to come to church with me. Of course I was only about 8 at the time.

ok... time passes and little miracles happen in life that open your eyes. Realizations bring enlightenment. For example, Jesus was Jewish. If Jesus was Jewish then according to the Catholic religion, as I was trained, how could he be in Heaven? See? It doesn't make sense.

My feeling is that if you follow the Golden Rule, Do unto others as you would have done unto you, then you can't go wrong. I choose to call my Supreme Being God. Some call him Buddha or Jehovah or Allah or Mohammed or Mother Nature or whatever. If you live your life to the best of your ability and take others into consideration. If you are kind and caring and learn from the error of your ways... I believe you will go into what we call Heaven.

I've gotten into discussions about this whole thing with people who are "Christian" yet their christian beliefs can often be viewed as quite harsh. I recall a discussion with a gal after the 9/11 tragedy where she insisted those who were not "Christian" who died would all go to what she called Hell. I do not believe that for a second. I do believe that those who did wrong during life will have to answer for their actions but I also believe that God is a forgiving God. I feel that those people who lived a good life on earth found a good life in Heaven without regard for the humanized version of religion. It would be a mightly lonely place if we didn't have all our brothers and sisters from all the different faiths in Heaven with us.

None of us will know the truth until it's our time to go. The feeling of freedom from our worldly concerns frees us in a way that we will not understand until then. I look forward to that time without fear. I look forward to reuniting with family and friends who have passed. In my extended family I have Hindu's, Muslims, American Indians, and Jehovah Witness as well as the Christians and Catholics and many more that don't come to mind. These are all good people who follow their own beliefs and their hearts and will end up the the reward of a beautiful life beyond our physical world.

 

[TicklingDuo]

I like what Joby said about the bike tire. I had a dream with a similar message once. I'd been wondering about this whole issue of who's going to make it and which faith will get them there. One night I had a dream that put my mind and heart at ease.

In the dream, I was on a path through a vast forrest. Though the woods were thick, I could still see far ahead and all around me. As I went along on my own path, I noticed others on other paths. Most seemed happy enough on their paths. There were spots where each path would become easier or more difficult. There were mountain tops and valleys and rivers to cross. Sometimes, the paths came close to or crossed one another. What struck me the most was that all of these paths led to the same place, which we all knew to be one of peace and joy. Sometimes we would talk a bit as the paths neared or crossed one another. But, there was never any arguement about which path was best. In the end, we all reached the same destination.

After that dream, though the degree of faith in what I believe to be true was unchanged, I was very much at peace with the fact that others didn't believe the same as me. Though I still sometimes felt concern for the ease of the journey, I knew that we were all headed to the same place in the end. I enjoy discussing the similiarities and differences of my faith with others...as long as everyone involved respects the right of the others to believe differently. When I share my faith with another, it is to share my joy with them. If they decide that they want that, wonderful. If not, that's fine too. Not everyone finds peace in the same way.

I do believe, that we must accept Jesus. But, I trust that the opportunity will be given after this life as well as now. It's our choice and He will honor it.

Ann

 

[Biggles of 266]

Re: A different outlook...

The only monotheistic religion that allows believers of a different monotheistic faith into their heaven is Islam

So who really decides what is wrong or right? If Christians are right, all the billions of others will never reach heaven. Buddhists can’t even be “near to God”, as omega described heaven, because they don’t have a God.

Very nice Hal. I'd like to reply to a couple of your points, if I may.

Did you know that Islam is the only major religion to condemn racism in its scripture? I think the Mormons have something that says how dangerous the "red and yellow people are", and the Witnesses... jeebus, don't get me started...

Have you ever heard the joke about the Jewish guy being shown around heaven? His guide shows him all the beautiful scenery, all the great sights, all the famous people, until they get to this huge high wall. The Jewish guy says "what's this here for?" and his guide says "keep your voice down. The Christians are on the other side and they think they're the only ones here!"

Very interesting thread 😀 Biggles

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

The truth is...

God is a woman, and She takes the earthly for of a Unicorn!

J/K...

I guess we won't know... until we die!

 

[Strelnikov]

Quoting QBW:
"I was raised a Roman Catholic... I was told, back then, that only a Catholic would go to Heaven."

That, and the doctrine of Original Sin, are the main reasons I parted company with the Catholic Church. My paternal grandmother was a saintly old lady, and grandfather was a true Christian gentleman. They belonged to the Evangelical and Reformed Church - think of Presbyterians with a German accent. I wouldn't accept the notion that they were hellbound, and was expelled from a church youth group because of that.

These days, my views are pretty much like the Padre's, with a bit of Joby's thrown in for flavor. Read my posts here if you want more details:
http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2918

Strelnikov

 

[omega]

My feeling is that if you follow the Golden Rule, Do unto others as you would have done unto you, then you can't go wrong. I choose to call my Supreme Being God. Some call him Buddha or Jehovah or Allah or Mohammed or Mother Nature or whatever. If you live your life to the best of your ability and take others into consideration. If you are kind and caring and learn from the error of your ways... I believe you will go into what we call Heaven.

Again, I have to ask the question I asked in my first post on this thread: How good is good enough? According to the theory quoted above everyone will go to heaven because I'm sure everyone, no matter how evil, has done at least one good thing.

Saint Peter introducing the newest arrival to heaven, "Here is Mother Theresa who lived a lifetime of good. And over here is Charles Manson who once refrained from kicking a dog."

 

[shark]

A priest once said in his homily that we will be surprised who made it into heaven,and who didn't.

 

[Iggy pop]

I heard that if you do find yourself in Hell, that they do have really cool music and hot women. Oh yeah, the new refrigiation system that keeps the beer cold, so you no longer have to worry about warm beer eithier. I swear that place just keeps on getting better and better.

As far Jehova's witnesses go, I go with the standard, "I didn't see the acident. Leave me alone."

 

[Biggles of 266]

From the Woody Allen movie, 'Deconstructing Harry':

Harry, to the devil: You guys have air-conditioning down here?

Devil: Sure, it f*cks up the ozone layer!

😀

 

[Iggy pop]

According to the theory quoted above everyone will go to heaven because I'm sure everyone, no matter how evil, has done at least one good thing.

Maybe everyone does go to heaven