Remember Guantanamo!

[Haltickling]

I just watched a very depressing documentary about Guantanamo on Austrian TV. What happens there is a shame to the civilized world! You could expect some African or South American despotic regime to act in that way, but never USA, the self-proclaimed savior of democracy and freedom.

The reporters talked to several former inmates of Camp Delta who were released after 13 months. You may rest assured that the US wouldn't release any terrorism suspect, so these men were imprisoned illegally for 13 months, without a chance of contact to a lawyer or their families, without a court charge, as innocents. Although there are certainly a significant number of guilty persons imprisoned among the inmates, it doesn't justify the US to violate human rights in a way that besmirches the whole western civilization with shame.

In this case (and not this case alone), the US authorities arbitrarily construe their very own "international law", acting like the strongest bully in the 'hood who is sure that nobody can challenge them.

One American judge who was interviewed rightly stated that a future American president will have to apologize for Guantanamo one day.

BTW, the report was far from one-sided. The combined BBC/ORF team brought many interviews with people who support the US government. Both sides were heard equally (and equally long), and the final judgement was left with the viewer. The journalists just asked questions, and they never commented the interviews.

 

[Prime]

I just watched a very depressing documentary about Guantanamo on Austrian TV. What happens there is a shame to the civilized world! You could expect some African or South American despotic regime to act in that way, but never USA, the self-proclaimed savior of democracy and freedom.

No offense Hal. I was just thinking that i love it when people add statements like "self proclaimed savior of democracy and freedom. Its just wonderful to be grouped in sarcasm such as that. Nobody is telling us things that most probably already know or suspect. Then agian maybe everything there is on the up and up. I guess unless one of us were there we could'nt really know for sure. So what i guess i'm trying to say is that although its great to inform people about things like this you or anyone sees it would be great if you could keep the jabs at the U.S as a whole out of it. Most of us are just trying to make a living. People from other countries seem to get such great joy out of when the United states does something morally wrong or trips up. I'm sure if you take the time to look at your own countries you will find enough corruption and wrong doing to keep you busy for the rest of your life. Anyhow except for the sarcasm in the first paragraph it was a nice thread. Thanks for the info. This statement was'nt a shot at you Hal you seem to be in intelligent and nice person. I just attatched it to this thread because i saw something that irked me that a few people on this forum do. Still i guess i could chalk it up to freedom of speech. 🙂

 

[Krokus]

Considering most of them were taken from the battlefield, I could care less what happens to them. They would kill any of our men at the drop of a hat, without even thinking about it. They are barbarians who deserve death.

 

[Haltickling]

Re: Re: Remember Guantanamo!

No offense Hal. I was just thinking that i love it when people add statements like "self proclaimed savior of democracy and freedom. Its just wonderful to be grouped in sarcasm such as that. Nobody is telling us things that most probably already know or suspect. Then agian maybe everything there is on the up and up. I guess unless one of us were there we could'nt really know for sure. So what i guess i'm trying to say is that although its great to inform people about things like this you or anyone sees it would be great if you could keep the jabs at the U.S as a whole out of it. Most of us are just trying to make a living. People from other countries seem to get such great joy out of when the United states does something morally wrong or trips up. I'm sure if you take the time to look at your own countries you will find enough corruption and wrong doing to keep you busy for the rest of your life. Anyhow except for the sarcasm in the first paragraph it was a nice thread. Thanks for the info. This statement was'nt a shot at you Hal you seem to be in intelligent and nice person. I just attatched it to this thread because i saw something that irked me that a few people on this forum do. Still i guess i could chalk it up to freedom of speech. 🙂

True, Prime. Just a few points: No state or nation is without mistakes, however no other western nation boasts and brags about their democracy and freedom as much as the US. My sarcasm was specifically pointed at those double standards.

And I'd never jab at the American people as a whole, I know too many of them personally 😉 . Guantanamo is the fault of the current Bush administration, not the average hard-working American. I'm sorry if it came over as generalization.

 

[Knox The Hatter]

I've been there. Not quite Devil's Island...
I do remember, though, that I was quite happy to see Cuba's coastline recede past the line of sight for the last time.
My father-in-law, by the way, built the baseball fields and other recreational facilities there when he was a Seabee, back in 1955. I remember when I was there in 1982, I used to watch movies on those diamonds at night. If I knew back then...well, let's say it's a small world.
I guess GTMO's as good a place as any to house prisoners not eligible for Habeas Corpus by government fiat. However, in my perfect world, Robert Novak would be joining those people in the cells there.

 

[Neutron]

As Opposed To Being Responsible..

For the deaths of 40 million Untermensch eh?

All those individuals were taken prisoner while pointing guns at Americans.

They should have suffered summary execution. They owe the US their lives.

Tron

 

[JoBelle]

First, I agree that atrocities happen by all nations. The US is not innocent by any means. Your example here shows only one of many I'm sure. For those who care, though, there is a fine line that many non-Americans don't understand. It explains much of our "defensive" nature about our image. It's something that would serve you well when speaking to an American audience if you want any type of positive feedback. If you don't care, feel free to flame me and/or ignore me.

The "boasting" you hear about US "freedom" is from the people like me who in spite of the obvious problems, are thankful for what we DO have. History dictates the demeanor of a society as you well know. The birth of America came with the idea of basic freedoms. Yes, there were problems along the way with the developement of the US simply considering what the founding fathers did to the native peoples. BUT even with that, the freedoms they had were worth it to them.

The average American citizens do acknowledge the problems our government manages to create. Trust me when I say that most of the citizens of this country are more outraged with the US government than any foreign person could ever be. That does not, however, change the fact that as a woman, I'm much more pleased to be an American than a Saudi. Granted, I could do with better health care, equal wages as the men I know, and receive attention from my senator, but still...I'm happier to have my American "freedoms" than to be living under the laws of Saudi Arabia. THAT is the type of "freedom" that we celebrate. It's also the sticking point when foreigners criticize our view as being pro-democracy and freedom. When you claim through sarcasm or outright criticism that we should be ashamed of the value we give to our "freedoms," you're not only criticizing the government, you're attacking the very nature of who we are as a people.

In essense, it would be more productive to specify a disgust with the governing bodies than with "Americans." It is not a problem for the average Joe to hear his government picked to pieces,(even by people whose countries have their own crosses to bear) but the next time a non-American says "How dare you claim you're free" I'm going to be seriously ill.

Jo, hoping I made my point and didn't jsut come across as bitchy. 😀

 

[Haltickling]

Re: As Opposed To Being Responsible..

All those individuals were taken prisoner while pointing guns at Americans.

Wrong. All of the released Guantanamo inmates were innocent, most were just denounced by neighbors or business competitors, or simply for monetary rewards the US troops offered to any informer. It took the US authorities 13 months to find out about the wrong allegations, despite daily interrogations... 🙄

Anyway, this doesn't justify any civilized authority to deny the prisoners some basic rights like a quick and fair trial, or even acknowledgement of POW status. Instead, there is a lot of crook-lawyer-like hairsplitting about the difference between "detainment" and "imprisonment", and the so-called "leased from Cuba, therefore not under American law" argument. Ridiculous!

And what does this have to do with WW2? Off topic, wouldn't you think so?

 

[Prime]

To be fair to Hal its not fair to have someone throw WW2 happenings at him just becuase he is german. Its happened more than once to him or others that may post from, Germany. I'm at least a quarter German. That does not make me a quarter responsible for anything that happened. Its not a fair statement to throw into his face. People cant be held responsible for what their predecors may have done. By the way it is an off topic discussion for this thread. Sorry just trying to show i can see both sides fairly.

 

[phatteus]

Amen, Prime

I agree that to bring something as terrible as the entire history of misfortune and Malcontent on the Center of Europe would be unfair to Hal. Germans as a whole are not to be held accountable for the happenings of both World Wars. They are not to be held responsible for the Berlin Wall, and they are certainly not to be held responsible for the Holocaust. I judge all persons individually, and not by the company they keep.
That said, I am appalled by the statements made by Hal, calling my country a "self proclaimed savior of democracy", comparing my nation to a South American or African Despotic regime. I take MAJOR offense to your statements Hal. While it is true that The United States is constitutionally committed to grant a fair hearing in a swift manner, while it is true that even the accused have rights (often more rights than the free) these pleasantries are ALWAYS turned aside when matters of national security are threatened. The United States did not become the Superpower that it now is by pussyfooting around the globe making certain that no one got hurt. They did so by taking charge and showing the world the way to do things that they, the US government, thought was right. I'm not going to say that these tactics are correct, but I am also not going to sit idly by and let someone badmouth my home, based solely on some crap they heard from a European Documentary film crew.
Guantanamo is, I'm sure, a terrible place. The practices there are barbaric by American standards. WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S IN CUBA? The prisoners held in GTMO are not to be confused with the prisoners held on Riker's, or in Sing-Sing, or in any other US prison facility. The prisoners of GTMO are treated with accordance to the Geneva convention, NOT the US Constitution. NEVER get those two confused. The United States is NOT to be considered a weak nation because its people are treated well. Nor is it to be considered a barbaric nation for punishing its alleged enemies.
The Freedoms of the United States have made it a target for the hatred of those who were born into poverty and neglect: those who feel that The United States is a cruel tyrant. That is unfortunate, because its people are all over the world, trying to help, trying to make a difference. Its people are dying in foreign lands, being shot and beaten by those unfree peoples which they are trying to protect.
Remember a couple years ago, when a couple of planes crashed into a couple of buildings, and a couple of people died? It was a really small, insignificant thing, in comparison to the major events of the world. I remember. I also remember the threats that the men (and women) responsible issued against European and Asian targets. Those who were friendly with the United States were likely targets, and likely would have been hit with equally devastating attacks had those men (and women) responsible not been brought to some form of justice. These people were brought to Cuba, where they were detained and questioned; against their will, and illegally, according to the United States Contitution. Had these "terrorists" not been detained, they might still be running around blowing up landmarks and killing free, innocent people.
Like it or not, war has been openly declared on civilized democracy. Until we are living in a candy-land magic town where clouds and bees and chirping birds serenade the drug-addled masses, places like Guantanamo will be a nessecity.

On a side note, I am getting VERY tired of coming on to this forum every day and seeing post after post after post of people badmouthing my country. Any way you look at it, this is a form of prejudice and a form of discrimination. I have plenty of rude opinions of other people, other races, other nations. I keep those opinions to myself because I don't like to consider myself a biggotted snob, nor do I like to offend the people I claim are my friends. I take any comments against my country, my race, my nationality, my family, or any other aspect of my identity VERY personally. Anything you have to say about my people, you are saying about me. Lately, US bashing has become the chic thing to do in the world. I'm saying it must stop right here, right now. I'm not saying we can't have opinions, but let's just remember that people have feelings, and that hurtful statements can build up and become antagonistic.
I don't need, nor do I expect an apology, but I'd rather just see such posts worded a little differently.
Thank you.

 

[JoBelle]

Its not a fair statement to throw into his face. People cant be held responsible for what their predecors may have done.

Since we're off topic for a moment...

Let's see if we can apply that above phrase to the people currently living in the South. Yep, there are still some redneck types out there, but not all of us need to labled racists and haters just because of where we live.

My, my, my how things come full cirlce.

and...

Phatteus restated my point when he eloquently said, "Lately, US bashing has become the chic thing to do in the world. I'm saying it must stop right here, right now. I'm not saying we can't have opinions, but let's just remember that people have feelings, and that hurtful statement can build up and become antagonistic.
I don't need, nor do I expect an apology, but I'd rather just see such posts worded a little differently.
Thank you."

*sigh*

Jo

 

[Krokus]

Re: Amen, Prime

On a side note, I am getting VERY tired of coming on to this forum every day and seeing post after post after post of people badmouthing my country. Any way you look at it, this is a form of prejudice and a form of discrimination. I have plenty of rude opinions of other people, other races, other nations. I keep those opinions to myself because I don't like to consider myself a biggotted snob, nor do I like to offend the people I claim are my friends. I take any comments against my country, my race, my nationality, my family, or any other aspect of my identity VERY personally. Anything you have to say about my people, you are saying about me. Lately, US bashing has become the chic thing to do in the world. I'm saying it must stop right here, right now. I'm not saying we can't have opinions, but let's just remember that people have feelings, and that hurtful statements can build up and become antagonistic.
I don't need, nor do I expect an apology, but I'd rather just see such posts worded a little differently.
Thank you.

Amen. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[phatteus]

Thanks Jo,

And not all us "Yankees" are soft, neither!! 🙂

 

[kis123]

To JoBelle, Phatteus, and all other non-apologetic American citizens;


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I'm sick and tired of defending my country and heritage. As a woman of color, I have enough domestic issues to last into the next millenium. However, I still believe that even though some of the things in the US suck, I'm still proud to be an American!!!!!!! I don't think there's a better place to live in this world. And regardless to the group of people who think my race should "go back where we came from", I'm from the United States of America. Whoever doesn't like it doesn't have to darken our doorstep. We have enough people coming into this country and already living here that want to be here and hope the problems we have will get better to allow folks who are on the outside looking in to sling mud at us.

Show me a perfect country and I might be willing to live there. Until then..........

 

[asutickler]

Re: Re: As Opposed To Being Responsible..

Oh my GOD, Phatteus! Post of the friggin' YEAR! 😀 😀 😀

Wrong. All of the released Guantanamo inmates were innocent, most were just denounced by neighbors or business competitors, or simply for monetary rewards the US troops offered to any informer. It took the US authorities 13 months to find out about the wrong allegations, despite daily interrogations... 🙄

Only partially wrong. All of the released prisoners were innocent, but ONLY of being al Quaida members. They were still members of the Afghan (Taliban) armed forces, and were captured in a warzone. As such, they were POW's.

Additionally, why WOULDN'T it take a significant ammount of time to "find out about the wrong allegations?" Surely you must realize that every single one of the dirt-bag terrorists and/or Taliban members currently held at Gunatanamo will happily drone on about how "innocent" they are to whomever will listen...

 

[babinsky]

The reporters talked to several former inmates of Camp Delta who were released after 13 months. You may rest assured that the US wouldn't release any terrorism suspect, so these men were imprisoned illegally for 13 months, without a chance of contact to a lawyer or their families, without a court charge, as innocents. Although there are certainly a significant number of guilty persons imprisoned among the inmates, it doesn't justify the US to violate human rights in a way that besmirches the whole western civilization with shame.

....yeah..Some of these inmates had to drop out of flight school..

 

[Moses25]

They would kill any of our men at the drop of a hat, without even thinking about it.

They are barbarians who deserve death.

Hmmmm...

"...pot calling the kettle black?"



Cheers.😀

P.M.S. Relax, K-man, just an observation of two negating sentences. I do know what you meant, though...hopefully.

 

[Haltickling]

That said, I am appalled by the statements made by Hal, calling my country a "self proclaimed savior of democracy", comparing my nation to a South American or African Despotic regime. I take MAJOR offense to your statements Hal.

Please don’t twist my words, phatteus. I didn’t compare USA to despotic regimes in the Third World; I said that I wouldn’t have expected such actions like Guantanamo from the USA. Hearing your President proselytizing about the “New World Order” and a “Mission to Eradicate Evil”, listening to US officials speaking about their God-given duty to democratize and westernize the world, wouldn’t you say that this leads to the impression of the US proclaiming themselves Lord Protectors of western civilization?

I wouldn’t even object them to be, if they acted as a positive example. They are the only ones with the military power to do so. But I must judge them by their actions, not by their words. A positive example means upholding the standards of human rights and international law, not repetitive violation of both. Hence my sarcastic jab at the discrepancy between words and actions. If this insults you, too bad. The truth hurts sometimes.

While it is true that The United States is constitutionally committed to grant a fair hearing in a swift manner, while it is true that even the accused have rights (often more rights than the free) these pleasantries are ALWAYS turned aside when matters of national security are threatened. The United States did not become the Superpower that it now is by pussyfooting around the globe making certain that no one got hurt. They did so by taking charge and showing the world the way to do things that they, the US government, thought was right. I'm not going to say that these tactics are correct, but I am also not going to sit idly by and let someone badmouth my home, based solely on some crap they heard from a European Documentary film crew.

Yes, the USA usually take charge and show the rest of the world whatever the US government thinks is right, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks. Does the end always justify all means? Are they always right? That’s what my “strongest bully in the hood” remark is aimed at.

A phrase from a recent JAG episode comes to my mind: “Remember, we’re the good ones. We’re the good ones because we stick to the rules, and because we don’t shoot first.”

This documentary wasn’t some “European crap”, as you claim in a retaliatory jab. They were one of the first film crews to get a permit to visit Camp Delta, under strict military censorship rules, of course. They were in Kabul and Pakistan, and they spoke to the former inmates and several witnesses for the arrest procedure. They spoke to the International Red Cross and former inmates of the Bagram internment camp, from where most of the Guantanamo prisoners came.

Don’t sit by idly, use the internet and the international media to research it on your own. A few links:

http://www.discourse.net/archives/2003/10/guantanamo_our_collective_shame.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3238624.stm
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGAMR512412032003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1098604,00.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/tristam1106.html

The official statement: http://usinfo.state.gov/dhr/human_rights/war_on_terrorism/guatmo_policy_archive.html

Some articles from both sides: http://www.iht.com/ihtsearch.php?key=Guantanamo

Guantanamo is, I'm sure, a terrible place. The practices there are barbaric by American standards. WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S IN CUBA? The prisoners held in GTMO are not to be confused with the prisoners held on Riker's, or in Sing-Sing, or in any other US prison facility. The prisoners of GTMO are treated with accordance to the Geneva convention, NOT the US Constitution. NEVER get those two confused. The United States is NOT to be considered a weak nation because its people are treated well. Nor is it to be considered a barbaric nation for punishing its alleged enemies.

So American laws make it necessary to hold them outside the States, and then the laws are no longer applicable? Sorry, what kind of logic is that? The Star Spangled Banner flies over Guantanamo, therefore it’s American territory. Surely all the soldiers and their families are subject to US law, not Cuban law, aren’t they?

Besides, the Guantanamo inmates are denied POW status. US justice invented a new category for them. Didn’t President Bush declare war on terrorism? Then why aren’t those people POWs? They are not charged with any crimes, or they would have to appear in a regular court. And US authorities make it quite clear that the Camp Delta inmates are not imprisoned as punishment. Lex Guantanamo? What is next? I never stated the US to be a barbaric country, but I think that the US are violating both, American law and Geneva Convention, in this case.

I keep those opinions to myself because I don't like to consider myself a biggotted snob, nor do I like to offend the people I claim are my friends. I take any comments against my country, my race, my nationality, my family, or any other aspect of my identity VERY personally. Anything you have to say about my people, you are saying about me. Lately, US bashing has become the chic thing to do in the world. I'm saying it must stop right here, right now. I'm not saying we can't have opinions, but let's just remember that people have feelings, and that hurtful statements can build up and become antagonistic.
I don't need, nor do I expect an apology, but I'd rather just see such posts worded a little differently.
Thank you.

You and many others obviously confuse political criticism with personal insults. Believe me, if I had intended to insult you or anybody else, I’d have worded my post differently. I know that laying the finger on the wound hurts, but that’s the price of free speech we all have to pay. Taking an individual’s criticism against a system as personal offense is a personal problem. It can’t be solved by intimidating or attacking the criticizing person.

 

[JoBelle]

Many of your points are valid, Hal. No one is disputing that.
I will say again, as many seem not to grasp the subject...

Know your audience. If you are unable to appreciate your audience's view, then you must "deal with" the fact that you come across like a hypocritcal windbag looking down your nose at America from your pristine state of Germany.

What you are not acknowledging is that you, along with others I've met over time, seem to wrap Americanism into one tight ill-fitted compartment that contains foreign policy makers and the average American.

When you exhibit that you've learned the difference in the two aforementioned groups, you'll get respectful reply to your views. It's very hard to appreciate someone's opinion while they are in attack mode.


Jo

***Oh look, Daddy! A dead horse!***

 

[Krokus]

Hmmmm...

"...pot calling the kettle black?"



Cheers.😀

P.M.S. Relax, K-man, just an observation of two negating sentences. I do know what you meant, though...hopefully.

Well, to make it more clear, what I meant was this. The majority of people over there think that we are "infidels" .....they hate us, and they hate our freedoms. They would kill us all given the chance. If these were a peace loving people, I wouldn't call them barbarians...But the middle east is the most hopeless realm on earth. The fighting there will never stop. Even when we leave (hopefully soon, shouldn't even be there) the violence won't end. These are people who are willing to kill children...blow themselves up....these people are pure scum. And it's my heartfelt opinion that they deserve death. Please refrain from comparing me to scum like that. I have compassion, love, and respect for human life. Comparing me to animals like them is the worst kind of insult you could bestow upon me. (no offense to you, moses, and im sure you understand the type of people I was talking about.)

 

[Haltickling]

Re: Re: Re: As Opposed To Being Responsible..

Only partially wrong. All of the released prisoners were innocent, but ONLY of being al Quaida members. They were still members of the Afghan (Taliban) armed forces, and were captured in a warzone. As such, they were POW's.

Sorry, wrong again. The US authorities deny them POW status (see my reply to phatteus).

Additionally, why WOULDN'T it take a significant ammount of time to "find out about the wrong allegations?" Surely you must realize that every single one of the dirt-bag terrorists and/or Taliban members currently held at Gunatanamo will happily drone on about how "innocent" they are to whomever will listen...

If they belong to the enemy in wartimes, they should be considered POWs, which would specifically forbid the US authorities to interrogate them daily, although every single session doesn't exceed 16 hours.

From a different angle, do you think that the released Afghanis would have been set free if there had been any doubt about their innocence, regarding both Al Qa'eda AND Taliban combattants? 🙄 They weren't taken from a battlefield, they were arrested at home, on the word of dubious informers whose credibility was not checked thoroughly.

 

[Haltickling]

Many of your points are valid, Hal. No one is disputing that.
I will say again, as many seem not to grasp the subject...

Know your audience. If you are unable to appreciate your audience's view, then you must "deal with" the fact that you come across like a hypocritcal windbag looking down your nose at America from your pristine state of Germany.

What you are not acknowledging is that you, along with others I've met over time, seem to wrap Americanism into one tight ill-fitted compartment that contains foreign policy makers and the average American.

When you exhibit that you've learned the difference in the two aforementioned groups, you'll get respectful reply to your views. It's very hard to appreciate someone's opinion while they are in attack mode.


Jo

***Oh look, Daddy! A dead horse!***

Sorry Joby, I thought that I had made myself very clear: My criticism is directed at certain aspects of contemporary US politics, not at Americans as a whole. I've said that many times, even within this thread. You're simply barking up the wrong tree here. Please read my posts completely, and don't turn into "defense" or "attack" mode as soon as any criticism against the USA is voiced.

Does "know your audience" mean that criticism, irony, or sarcasm against US politics isn't allowed when speaking to a predominantly American audience? Should I take that as "don't criticize the US here, or else shut up"? I can't imagine that you're on that level, Joby.

As to the dead horse: I wrote this thread to remind of unjustly treated humans who tend to be forgotten because it's convenient. And I will continue to do so in MY words as long as I consider it appropriate and necessary.

It has nothing to do with bashing America or the Americans. I don't hate the USA, on the contrary, I care for it. That's why I will go on to criticize un-American politics, particularly if US policy damages the reputation of the Western civilization as a whole.

I don't expect to be loved for my criticism, but I object to every Non-American getting steamrollered as soon as they dare to bring up uncomfortable points. Then, and only then, I get into "attack mode".

 

[JoBelle]

GAH!

For the love of God.

I understand you. I gave validity to your post.

You just aren't grasping the point.

🙄
Jo

 

[BigJim]

Considering most of them were taken from the battlefield, I could care less what happens to them. They would kill any of our men at the drop of a hat, without even thinking about it. They are barbarians who deserve death.

Four legs good, two legs baaaaaaaaaaad!

 

[BigJim]

Re: As Opposed To Being Responsible..

For the deaths of 40 million Untermensch eh?

All those individuals were taken prisoner while pointing guns at Americans.

They should have suffered summary execution. They owe the US their lives.

Tron

I grew up in Britain, so I know a lot about taking the piss out of the Germans for starting World War 2 and unleashing history's biggest psychopath and mass-murderer on the world. I remember that episode of Fawlty Towers and I remember (not personally as it happened twenty two years before I was born) the chant that was going round England in 1966.

"One world cup and two world wars, doo-daaaaaaaah! Do-daaaaaaahhhh!"

The people of Germany have long been the butt of jokes about gassing jews and doodlebuggs for as long as I can remember. Well if the citizens of a country are responsible for the politics of it's leaders (which I don't believe they are, but am using this example as Devil's Advocate) then we should be ON OUR KNEES to the German people! Begging forgiveness that we treated them so hideousely after Versailles, grinding their country into dust, destroying their currency; and most importantly, creating the vacuum into which Hitler could stroll and be claimed as a savior, instead of laughed at as a complete lunatic. Furthermore the American people should be feeling just a tiny bit guilty that it was two of their leading citizens (Prescott Bush and Henry Ford) who DIRECTLY FUNDED the son of a bitch! We, the West, cursed Germany with decades of misery and suffering, the biggest twat ever in world politics and the whole of the second world war, then we've got the brass bollocks to take the piss for the next half a century as if it was their fault, which it bloody wasn't!

As for Guantanomo Bay, I see it very clearly. The American Constitution was created to treat everybody equally and fairly; not matter who or what they were. Not lightly or over-leniently, but fairly. Patriotic Americans hold it up and cry to the world about what a shining example it is for everyone else to follow. Shitty soap operas are full of incredibly unsubtle propaganda about how wonderful and fair their system is. Yet whenever they desire to, the American Government rips the Constitution to shred and throws it in the bin, and does exactly what they like. The Federal Government is no respector of the law or impartiality, unless it's their pleasure so to be. They break every law (Sdoes Britain, I'm well aware of this. In some respects we've become the Mini-Me to America's Dr. Evil), bypass every amendment and shortcut every legal safeguard if it's what they want to do and bollocks to the rest of the world.

Does this affect me? Nope, not really. I'm not a person who believes in the force of terrorism to get my point across, I'm British, and I'm generally an Americana lover. But it does stick in my craw when a country who is without doubt the most politically immoral in the world, is so piss-full of it's own perfection and self-importantce. At least some shithole in South East Asia makes no bones about the fact that you're in the shit if you fuck up with them. They don't try to make themsevles sound like Elysium on Earth.

There are many of you who probably think I am over-reacting. Well I've posted about America's Geneva Convention and International Law breaking actions in the first Gulf War and Afghanistan, but you might have noticed that there's no mention of the 2003 war yet? There's gonna be... there's gonna be! British and American troops have committed the most incredible acts of illegal barbarism on foreign soil and are responsible for blatant bullshit on the media that eclipses anything the USSR fed it's people duting the Cold War.

Greetings comrades! Large fire destroys derelict building in Moscow, making room for glorious new tractor factory! Let jubilation reign!

But be serious for a moment. Does anyone believe me? Nope, didn't think so. If you had it laid before you on a plate that what I was saying is true and you HAD to believe me, would you care? Precious few of you would. American and British unilateralism has become something akin to the Fourth Reich in it's approach to dealing with things and the worst thing is, it's own people rarely recognise when it's been used on THEM. So long as the other people are perceived as being the "bad guys" (possibly the world's most childish and ridiculous generalisation) then most Americans and British don't care how many laws they break, or how many innocents get killed in the pursuit of a good arse-kicking.