Stabbed shopkeeper may be charged with Assualt

[General Zod]

A shopkeeper who was stabbed by a shoplifter today said it was "ludicrous" that he may be prosocuted for lashing out at the thief

Colin Moore,32,who owns four convinence stores in Norwich,was stabbed in the back when he chased after a gang who had just robbed his shop

Mr. Moore admits he punched one of the thieves but claims it was self defense

The knife wound waswithin two inches of his spinal cord and millimeteres away from his kidneys

He was arrested and released on bail after the youth complained to the police

Here is the link

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3570962


Anybody else pissed of at that as much as I am? Or am I one of the few humans on this misserable planet angry that someone can walk into a store and steal from you,but if you try and get the stuff back or defend yourself you get bought up on charges?

 

[AffectionateDan]

Too many damned laws, not enough JUSTICE

We need to take a step back to a simpler time, where if you broke the law, you actually got punished for it, and the punishment fit the crime. Shopkeeper shoulda blown the punk who stabbed him away, both barrels, then reloaded in case his friends felt lucky.

 

[steph]

Ya know what? When I was a kid my Mom decided her neighborhood needed a Neighborhood Watch program. The Sheriff came and told us, "If ya get your house broken into and you have to draw your gun, make sure you shoot to kill, because if you shoot the a-hole in the leg, he'll sue you and WIN!" 🙄

XOXO

 

[buggs]

I am pissed. For some reason the criminals have more rights than the victims, or people who are just defending themselves. This is why he should have had a gun in his store to protect himself. This story just speaks volumes of why I am so ticked off with the way society is now. There was a time when this sort of thing would never have happened to the guy. Damn shame.

And Steph. A sherrif told my Mom the same thing when a criminal was brought in to my moms emergency room with a shot in his arm or something, and the guy who's house he was robbing who was protecting himself was in another car going to the station for shooting the criminal. He told my mom that if the guy had killed the criminal it would be all fine and well, but because he just injured him, this poor guy who was just trying to protect his home and family, will go to jail for it.

 

[Mitchell]

This is a travesty of justice. How the hell can a guy or should a guy be charged for a crime when he was the victim of one by some punk? Makes one see just how screwed up the justice system is. Laws need to be changed to actually favor the victim, because in so many cases of crimes it seems like only the criminal has rights.

Mitch

 

[AffectionateDan]

You do the police a big favor...

...by doing a little genetic weeding and wasting the scumbags. You just tell them, "I was afraid for my life," and it makes the paperwork SO much easier.

 

[General Zod]

Well in this case it's not like the shop owner could use a firearm It took place over in the U.K.

 

[kis123]

Many years ago, a friend of a friend of mine bought an air gun, filled it with rock salt, and kept it close to her. One day, some scumbags tried to rob her, and she let the rock salt fly. Rock salt wounds them and then the salt melts in the wounds. No amount of water is going to fix it either. It's an automatic trip to the hospital!!

The only way I could take a life is if me or my children's lives were really on the line. And I'd still have problems even if justified. So I'd try not to kill them, but they'd better never give me an ultimatum!

We live in one helluva time when the violators have more rights than law-abiding citizens!

 

[Neutron]

Damn!

Two years ago a kid egged my house. I found him and made him eat the rest of his eggs raw.

By the way kis, when I was a boy in Ohio I got railed in the back with a load of rock salt when I was stealing watermelons from a farmers field. I didn't end up in the hospital but it HURT like HELL.

Tron

 

[Azrael]

I Don't Suppose...

...that the owner filed charges against the shoplifter?

I realize that this doesn't make the fact that he was brought up on charges of assault any less grating.

But, to the person who mentioned it being alright to steal, and not alright to assault a person stealing from you...

First of all, it's not alright to steal, but if you don't file a report, nothing's going to happen about it. People are arrested for stealing every day, so clearly the police do in fact do something about it.

You can file a report even if the person you're reporting is charging you with assault. If you don't, when given the opportunity (the police will typically understand that you couldn't file promptly given a serious stab wound) then it makes you look guilty. It doesn't sound like this individual filed a report... it sounds like he took off after a gang of kids and got what his idiocy merited him, as well as lowering himself to their level. I don't know about you, but my life is worth more than cash, candy, or whatever the hell those kids took.

As far as the shopkeeper only defending himself, how do we know that? We have nothing other than this shopkeeper's word. If evidence shows that he acted in self-defense, he will be aquitted. That, however, is up to the courts to determine, as in every other case of reported assault.

Here's a thought. Maybe the shopkeeper got tired of young punks breaking into his store and stealing things. Maybe he'd been robbed before, and didn't report it then either, and the thefts continued because he'd forged himself an unfortunate reputation for being an easy mark. Reporting a crime isn't just an 'option,' it is your duty as a citizen to notify the police of such wrongdoing. Police do not have sensors in the 21st century.

So, the owner got angry, and punched the kid. Y'know what? I've seen it happen, and it's not all that outlandish a story. And I don't care how many mars bars a dumb kid stuffs in his pocket, or how many expensive new DVDs he walks out the door with; that gives you the right as a shop owner to call the police, but not to lay a hand on him, and certainly not to attempt to injure him--the former is often in fact forgiven in America today.

I'm not saying that this is exactly what happened. For all I know, the kid might've stabbed the guy for the fun of it before he even bothered to rob the place, and the punch was a last desperate effort to fight back. All the police are going to see, regardless, is one guy with a stab wound and a kid with a bruise, and both claiming self-defense. They cannot, no matter how ratty or greasy the kid might be, make generalized presumptions about who's guilty and who's innocent, and it doesn't help the idiot shopkeeper that the kid filed a report like you're supposed to whilst that guy went chasing after a gang of thugs like a lunatic.

If the punch was self-defense, it's going to be found that way. Forensics is very advanced at this point in time, but it's still necessary to go through all the phases of legality. People are wrongly accused in serious crimes where a lot of evidence needs to be taken into consideration, the crime is usually covered up, and the criminals involved attempt to deliberately mislead the police.

Criminals do not have more rights than their victims. They have exactly the same ones, until proven guilty in a court of law, and their rights must be respected until they are proven guilty, as with any other individual. Arbitrarily shooting any 11-year-old who pockets a Milky Way or flips the birdie to a shopkeeper is murder, potentially mass murder, and rightly so.

I for one am much happier living in a society with a legal code like what America has today, than living in one where gangs of people beat each other on the back and then run around shooting petty thieves and other minor criminals. All it takes is one shouted word and the wrong impression, and you're gunning down innocents on the spot. The whole reason things are the way they are is so that no judgement, however apparently obvious it might be or whatever the at-first-glance nature of the people involved, is reliant upon the opinion of a single person.

 

[kis123]

Azrael;

I can understand your compassion (believe me I do) but you have a whole lot of "what ifs" in your post.

What if these kids did attack the man and he was defending himself?
What if this man did defend his property? I don't care if it's a pack of gum, either pay for it or stay out of the store. People have gotten themselves killed for a lot less.
What if the kid would've asked for what he wanted instead of stealing it? Me and my ex owned two stores and would sometimes feed the neighborhood children. We knew some of them had nothing and it did keep the stealing down to a minimum. But no matter how nice we were, there were some who stole anyway. There were some who tried to sell drugs and harrass my children anyway. There are some people in this world who just want something for nothing and will gain at someone else's expense.

We had a story in our local news a couple of weeks ago about three children, the oldest one thirteen, stole a construction vehicle off a site and made about 1,000,000 dollars worth of damage. Kids just being kids, huh? Go tell that to their parents who may never be able to pay that back. These kids know better and should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law!

Wrong is wrong no matter how you cut it. If the kids weren't stealing, none of this would have ever happened. Nowadays, people have grown impatient and dispassionate about what children do. The kids know better but do anyway, then they better be prepared to deal with the consequences. They're lucky they weren't killed. What's even worse, they'll go to someone else's store and steal from them. They probably haven't learned a thing!

 

[kis123]

Unfortunately, the law has nothing to do with justice-that's why she wears the blindfold. I say govern yourselves and not put yourself in the situation to begin with. People are packing pistols and are itching to use them. It would be horrible to get yourself shot over a candy bar, but it has happened and will continue to happen.

 

[jugner]

This happened in the UK firstly, so I don't know how the legal system works there. Secondly, I own a pistol, and a license to carry it, but I would never use it unless I was in danger. I've mentioned before I'm in a wheelchair, so I'm an easier mark, so I think I should.

From what I read, the guy gave chase and was then stabbed. So in a way he was asking for trouble. To be honest, I wouldn't argue too much. I would file charges back, for just punching a guy he might have to go to anger-management, maybe pay a little money. The other guy stabbed him, he'll be in jail and have to pay a lot.

Maybe the guy will take it as a lesson, the police may be slow or at times may not work at all, but doing it yourself is a risk both legally and physically. Like it or not, that's how it is.

 

[kis123]

The guy wasn't asking for trouble. He went to work like a decent law-abiding citizen and the thugs in training were the ones asking for trouble. He was minding his business and going through his day doing what people are supposed to do. He wasn't asking for trouble.

I do not buy the "kids will be kids" Dr. Spock crap that I hear when it comes to making kids accountable for their lawless behavior. Parents are scared to discipline their children when they're young so they don't become jail bait or worm food when they get older. They'd rather make excuses for their lack of parenting ability. When their kids disrespect them, they act like it's okay and a part of the child expressing his/herself. GARBAGE!!!! I love my kids and will give them the world, but I will not tolerate disrespect on any level, not at all! This mess tends to start at home and spread abroad. If you've raised a child who respects authority and property at home, you'll have one that will do the same in the street when they're not with you.

The man acted impulsively out of anger and frustration. The police around here show up to a crime scene whenever they feel the mood to do so. No telling how long it took for the cops to show up! He reacted instead of taking appropriate action. But he wasn't the one asking for trouble-the brats in question were! Whatever happened to them during a commission of a crime is their problem and the shopkeeper should not be held responsible for it.

That's what's wrong with society today-we don't like to take it to the source of the problem (kids disobeying the law). We'd rather take the path of least resistance (shopkeeper defending his store and losing his temper). I don't buy it and I hope the court doesn't either!

 

[jugner]

When I said he was looking for trouble, I meant by giving chase, I understand he was mad and frustrated, but he almost died. The system doesn't always work, but like I said, it's all we have.

 

[buggs]

Another example of the stupidity of gun control. It gives crooks the balls as the people have no way to defend themselves. And now when a person uses the only option they have to defend themselves, their hands, why he is at fault and not the person who used a knife on him. Yeah, another example why I will always fight gun control. I remember watching videos of cops in England back in the mid 90's getting the crap kicked out of them by people as they could not defend themselves. In fact, I remember one of the highest victim statisitics in the country when I was watching the video was the cops themselves. And I know that Austrailia's crime rate has gone up sionce the outlawing of guns. Oh well, eventually one day someone will get a clue that it does exactly the oposit of what it was intended to do. And this guy who was just trying to defend himself after getting stabbed in the back. Man, this just disgusts me to no end.

 

[jugner]

I'm extremely opposed to outlawing guns. Several drugs are illegal, does that mean no-one ever gets them, obviosly no. It just means those who do get them illegally are not afraid because they know that most don't have them.

Something to think of is cars kill a lot more people than guns, and yet we'll give people a license at 16.

 

[General Zod]

I'm extremely opposed to outlawing guns. Several drugs are illegal, does that mean no-one ever gets them, obviosly no. It just means those who do get them illegally are not afraid because they know that most don't have them.

Something to think of is cars kill a lot more people than guns, and yet we'll give people a license at 16.

Ain't that the sad and sorry truth?

 

[jugner]

Afraid so.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

Keep in mind, cars are a tool and means of transportation. Only use a gun has is to kill.

 

[General Zod]

Keep in mind, cars are a tool and means of transportation. Only use a gun has is to kill.

No argument there Cosmo But the point is is that cars and other motor vehicles do kill a greater number of people every year than guns It just seems that there is no great plan to try to reduce that number

 

[Cosmo_ac]

well, keep in mind zod, you have a majority of 300,000,000 people who use there car every day. If that many people shot there guns at each other every day, i bet the fatality rate would deffinitly change as to who got killed by what very quickly.

 

[jugner]

True cosmo, but they don't. And zod is correct, the point is that no-one is trying to pass laws to create more laws for public transportation and such. Car pooling is reccomended because of the enviroment, not because it would take away a lot of traffic.

I just don't see the point of taking away guns at all.

 

[Psycho]

Its a shame.


BTW does this seem like the kind of thread Lime would make to anyone else.

Psycho

 

[TummyDragon]

A shopkeeper who was stabbed by a shoplifter said today it was “ludicrous” that he may be prosecuted for lashing out at the thief.

Colin Moore, 32, who owns four convenience stores in Norwich, was stabbed in the back when he chased after a gang who had just robbed his shop.

Mr Moore admits he punched one of the thieves but claims it was in self-defence.

The chronological timing of the punch is unclear, but, one would assume the punch happened after the shoplifting and after the shopkeeper gave chase. We do know that he was stabbed after giving chase.

Not sure how the laws in Scotland work, but, if this were to happen in the US, the same result of shopkeeper arrest would occur. The shop owner gave up his right to assert self defense the moment he gave chase. At that moment he turned from victim to vigilante. The key to self defense is for a resonable and prudent person to believe there is "imminent life threatening danger". The shoplifters must have already fled for the shopkeeper to have "given chase" and therefore his person was, at the moment he began his chase, no longer (if he ever was) in imminent danger. He became the attacker. A second thought here is that this is stated as being a "shoplifting" as opposed to an "armed robbery". Shoplifting would require avoidance of, rather than confrontation with, the shopkeeper which would also indicate that the shopkeeper was never in danger at all until after he foolishly chased the gang.

The two events are actually two separate crimes. There is first a shoplifting then followed by the shopkeeper's assault. We have the right to defend against attack, but, we do not have the right to chase down someone fleeing from us (even if that someone committed a crime against us), attack him, and still make a claim of self defense.

This particular case, at least with the scant information we have read, just doesn't come close to passing the self defense litmus test. I can fully understand the shopkeeper's ire and desire to 'get those punks', but, it's not within the law to do so.