STAR WARS: Leia's parents

[Oddjob0226]

O.k., please forgive the misspellings, but I was cooking.....


If Darth Vader/Anakin is Luke's Father, if Luke & Liea are brother & sister, if Amidala is Leia's mom... so, is Vader Leia's father, too? So, in the 1st movie he chased after his own daughter, submitted her to the mind probe, killed off her home planet, then tried to kill her on Yavin 4, but never clued her in? He "Felt something" when Ben Kenobi was on the death star, and he knew the "Force is strong with this one", (Luke) in the trench fight, but felt nothing regarding Leia when she was on the death star?????
And where does she get the surname Organa?

Maybe they are half brother/sister... which would account for Luke being strong in the force ( from Vader/Anakin) but Leia pretty weak in it ( Amidalla, but not with the Vader/Anakin 'boost' of the Force)...... hmmmmm... maybe Amidala & Vader had Luke, but Amidala and an impetuous, emotional Ben "got with" Amidala and THEY had Liea, which was a betrayal to Anakin, which started the animosity, Anakin's anger brought him to the Dark Side, which gave rise to Vader and made Ben run to Tatooine in shame...... which is why Ben is so anti-Dark Side now, since he's been there/done that, having given in to some degree, and seeing what it did to Anakin. So Ben is the cause of the worse turmoil in the Star Wars universe!

 

[Dave2112]

Ok, here's the deal. (Finally, a thread that I AM an expert at! LOL)

You're pretty much right in the first part of your thread. Luke and Leia were twins born to Anakin and Padme (Amidala).

I don't want to give away the circumstances surrounding their removal, as that would totally blow Episode III, and those facts are only hinted at in a few books to begin with.

Vader knew that he had a son. He didn't know who he was, but he knew he had one out there. What he didn't know was that he had TWO children. Luke was the stronger of the two in the Force, and Leia was raised as far from the Force as you could get. In the Death Star trench, Vader sensed the Force in Luke, but didn't find out that the mysterious pilot was his son until a few months after. This hunt was covered in the Dark Horse comic series "Vader's Quest".

Leia got the name Organa from her adoptive father Bail Organa, Chancellor of Alderaan. She was raised as his daughter and was thrust into galactic politics at a very early age.

There was a passage in one of the earlier Star Wars books about Anakin appearing to Leia after his death as a shade, as Obi-Wan did with Luke. Leia was less than receptive to his apology and he never appeared to her again.

Hope this clears a few things up.😎

 

[Oddjob0226]

Wow- thank's Dave! GREAT information!

It bugs me though, just a personal pet peeve, that things are introduced in films and then you have to track the details down in other media, over time. I like the films to stand on their own. Another example- like or hate Blair Witch, it pretty much stood on it's own....but now there are journals, comics, and other videos that further explain things that occured in the film, or reveals info that one must need to further follow the movies ( especially the supposed part 3 prequil). I like learning more about what I enjoy ( Star Wars, whatever - I still remeber going crazy as a little kid when I saw 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye' out in a local bookstore...MORE Star Wars for an eager 9 year old!) I like the 'extra' stuff, the background and shading in of gray areas, but UUUHHHH, it drives me crazy when details that specifically pertain to a film series and upcoming film events aren't in the films themselves... going just by the Star Wars movies alone, you'd never know who was related to whom!

But that's just personal whining - you answered my question perfectly! Thanks!

 

[Dave2112]

Stay tuned, Oddjob....all of this WILL be explained in Episodes II and III of the prequel movies. That' pretty much the reason for making them.

All will be explained.😎

 

[Oddjob0226]

Like you say- YOU'RE the expert! You've put a LOT of time into your research! I'm really looking forward to Parts 2 & 3. What I really thought was interesting about Episode I was how they really got into the "senate" and the beginnings of "the Alliance" and the "Rebbellion" in dealing with The Emperor... you know, all the buzzwords from the 1st films that seemed like background stuff, you actually got to see the workings of it in Episode I. That was cool! Reall looking forward to the new films and appreciate all the info! Thanks, Dave!

 

[Dr|zzt]

theres alot of clever links between the first movie and the 4,5+6...

the senate were massive in ep 1 - and if you remember one of the first things that is said when one of the imperial captains walks into the room in ep4 is "the senate has just been completely dissolved!"

there are loads of reference to explain the parents thing in the first 3 movies - when vader is reading lukes mind inbitween fighting - "you have a twin sister? obi wan was right to hide her from me" - this indicates that he didnt know that he had a daughter.

when luke is on the forest moon of endor talking to liea - "my father had it, i have it, and my sister has it" - he also sais that she will learn to use the force in time... which means that there is some power in her. she just has to learn to use it.

one thing im not sure about is the reason anikin turns bad? i heard a story that anikin and obi wan get pissed off with each other because of anikins love for amidala - they then battle and obi wan wins - anikin is badly injured (on the face - as seen in episode 6) and has to don a big black mask as a life support machine. (helps him breath!) - am i close dave? - i didnt put spoiler! because its only a rumor.

Question for dave - how did Vader find out that luke was his son then?

 

[MadKalnod]

I've neither read or heard anything to confirm this, but my hypothesis is that Anikin will turn to the Dark Side in a futile attempt to protect or avenge his still-enslaved mother. He'll be resentful towards the Jedi for leaving her in harm's way, and for taking him away so he couldn't be there to save her. In a scene cut from the script of Return of the Jedi, Ben's ghost explains to Luke that he and Anakin fought on the edge of a volcano when Skywalker Sr. turned to the Dark Side, and when Anakin fell into the lava Ben left him for dead. Anakin escaped, but then required the suit of cybernetic life-support armor to survive afterwards. I don't know if this is going to be retained in Episode III.

As for Leia's Force-using abilities, these are expanded upon in the Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End series from Dark Horse Comics. In this 14-issue story set just after Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, Leia does wield a lightsaber and display that she has received some Jedi training from Luke. However, she decides not to pursue further training in the subseqent Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson, since she feels it's more important to provide a stable government for the New Republic as a normal person. Much of Palpatine's propaganda during the Purge painted the Jedi as power-hungry elitists, so the average citizen of the Galaxy is reluctant to trust a Force-user as Chief of State.

The last Star Wars novel I read was the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy by Roger MacBride-Allen, so I don't know if any of that changes in the Hand of Thrawn or New Jedi Order series. Dave would know.

 

[Dave2112]

This is becoming an interesting thread. MalKalnod is pretty close to Anakin's mother being the central force behind his turn. The forbidden love between him and Amidala will play into it as well.

Leia did start to use a lightsaber (acquired from Vima-da-Boda for those who care), a crimson one, actually. But as Mal stated, her life of politics took precedence over any Jedi training. She has latent abilities, but no real control. By New Jedi Order, little has changed there.

There is more to Anakin's turning than just his own feelings, though. Remember that Darth Maul was slated to be in the place Vader wound up as Palpatine put his plan for control of the Senate into play. Palpatine sensed the power in young Anakin and you'll see that he quickly needs a new apprentice. I don't know how he'll do this, this is speculation. But it stands to reason that Palpatine exerted some form of persuasion on the young Jedi. Throughout the books, it became clear to the forming republic exactly how deep his influence over the galaxy went. Mara Jade still had an embedded message in her brain since his death, and he called to her as he was thrust down the shaft by Vader. This was what led to her hunting Luke at first.

Obi-Wan was famous for telling people things that were shrouded in mystery and "point-of-view", so be careful tracing back anything he said in the original films. But I've also heard the volcano story from a lot of sources over the years.

On a last note, twins seem to run in that family. Amidala bore Luke and Leia, and Leia bore Jason and Jaina as twins. Subtle hint?

Anything else I can help with about Star Wars, I will be more than happy to answer!😎

 

[Scooby112211]

uhh...umm...I like the part about the Ewoks...😛

 

[Oddjob0226]

Leia using a lightsaber.... I do indeed rember that now, since my mind is being refreshed..... although my my question(s) of her lineage/use of the Force is more based on ONLY what the movies give us, there is indeed a huge Star Wars universe out there..... as far as Vader falling into a volcano, wow, I remeber reading about that in my 1978 Dynamite Magazine where there were supposed to be up to 12 (!) Star Wars films!!!!!

Now I wonder if the "clones" and twins in the Skywalker family have anything to do with one another...and remeber, in Episode One, Yoda says "Always two there are" refering to Darth Maul as an apprentice to the Dark Side, and supposedly he is a clone (the first?) so I guess- only a guess - is that the "two" Yoda refers to is a secnd Maul. Why find two apprentices to evil when you can grow 'em!

 

[Dr|zzt]

nah, yoda was refering to Maul being sidius's apprentice... it was a hint at the fact that they havent killed the emporer - and the real evil is still there.

i first thought the clones were the storm troopers - because after the battle of naboo, they realized that it was very easy to mass distroy battle droids - so to prevent that from happening again. they cloned humans - hence the storm troopers.

However, ive heard rumors that boberfett and his kind are something to do with the clones???

any news on this Ci Rynn Master?

 

[Dave2112]

First off, Yoda's reference to "always two" was as DrIzzt (sp?) said. He was referring to the fact that Sith worked in pairs. A Master and Apprentice. This was an edict handed down by Darth Bane after the Battle of Ruusan, in which the Jedi believed all of the Sith destroyed. Bane made this order to continue the Sith legacy, but fly under the radar of the Jedi. It remained this way for the "thousand years" that the Sith were thought extinct. This doesn't mean that there were no Jedi who turned Dark, but there would never be anymore than two Sith LORDS. Fallen Jedi and true Sith are often two different things. It's like the difference between someone who hates America and wants to do some damage and a true member of the Taliban itself. If anyone is interested in the origin of the Sith and what constitutes the term, I'll be happy to expand this.

As far as the clones and the stormtroopers, I don't want to give anything away. This will be covered in Episode II. Boba Fett and his father Jango Fett, who will be in Ep II, really had nothing to with being clones. They are humans from Mandalor and the armor worn first by Jango, then Boba is simply the remnants of their military or something close to that. They were bounty hunters who were interested only in paying jobs. In fact, at one point during the Han Solo Trilogy by A.C. Crispin, Boba Fett surprises Han outside of the Mos Eisley cantina and tells him not to worry, he's not after Han. He was relaying a message from Han's former love interest. It was shortly after this that Jabba announced the bounty on Han's head.

Palpatine's influence went deeper than anyone could have imagined. The entire premise of the Trade Federation blockade was not only to force Amidala into calling for the resignation of the Chancellor, paving the way for Palpatine to take over, but also as a sticking point for his plea that the Republic is "poorly defended" and needs an army. Up until this point, most systems took care of their own security and the Republic actually had a smaller military force than you'd think. Enter the clones.😎

 

[Dr|zzt]

Dave, id be interested to here more about the sith... i dont remember them being mentioned in the first trilogy. was there a time that there were lots of them?

is palpatene/sidius a sith?

and ive always wondered - does he use the Force. that blue stuff that comes out of his hands, is that just some other magic or what?

cheers

 

[Dave2112]

At the time of The Phantom Menace, Palpatine/Sidious was the last Sith Lord, perhaps the most powerful since Naga Sadow. The history of the Sith is a long thread and I'll start a new one for that so as not to take up a lot of space here.

As for the "blue stuff" that came out of his hands, it is known as Force Lightning. This is an ancient part of Sith magic and alchemy (explained in other thread). He was one of the few who knew the secrets of using it. Palpatine claimed to have knowledge of creating a Force Storm, something not seen since the Hyperspace Wars, but this was never proven or documented.

Thanks for the interesting questions.😎

 

[Oddjob0226]

Just a kind of FYI - nothing really worth anything - but I don't think the word "Sith" is mentioned in the 1st 3 movies, but it IS mentioned in the novelization of Star Wars, which I read in 1977 after seing the movie. I also got a trading card from the "blue series" (again in '77) with Darth Vader on it that called him "the Lord of the Sith"... but in both of these instances, "Sith" was never really explained..... so even then details were being brought up that were years away from being explained or reffered to.

 

[Dave2112]

Please see my thread regarding the start of the Sith in this section of the forum. If there is enough interest, I'll continue it, because there is a lot more to tell.

As for things not being in the movies, this is something I wanted to respond to before, but didn't take the time.

In anything regarding Star Wars, the movies are considered canon, nothing in the films is wrong, so to speak. But there are a lot of references built upon even the tiniest things in them.

For instance...

When one of the Imperial officers states at the "round table" of the Death Star chamber that "This station is the ultimate power in the Universe...I suggest we use it." Christopher Lee, playing Grand Moff Tarkin, gives him a rather strange sideways glance of disapproval. This small bit of acting may have gone unnoticed by most, but was explained in later books.

He was the author of something called the "Tarkin Doctrine"...a belief that "the threat of force can be more persuasive than force itself." Palpatine twisted this to mean something totally different. Tarkin's glance was meant to show his disapproval of using the weapon for what it was built for, rather than just a threat.

The reason I bring this up is simple. The movies have facts than cannot be thrown aside. BUT...the "expanded universe", as it is called, of the novels has tried to take everything into consideration to make a well-rounded Universe. Even if the movies seem to contradict the films, if you look closely enough, they don't. Every writer who has ever written a Star Wars book has been under the strict rule that they not introduce anything that goes against the films. This may mean that they have to take some liberties, but if you look at the big picture, all makes sense in one way or the other.

It was like when Obi-Wan gives Luke that uncertain look before telling him about his father in "A New Hope". You could take it several ways if you wanted to, especially if you don't take the other films into context. If that film was the only one ever made, the scene would stand on it's own as simply a tough thing for Obi-Wan to say. But the writers had an opening to include the "Vader is Luke's Father" idea in subsequent films. Of course, this was already planned by Lucas, but you get my point.

Thanks again for the interesting thread.😎

 

[Oddjob0226]

Grand Moff Tarkin! He's another I'd like to learn more about! I'm lovin' this thread! I won't insult you by correcting your mistake about Christopher Lee playing him, but instead compliment you on your knowledge of both Star Wars and Hammer Studios! Now I'm going to go back and watch these movies all over again, closer... but I wonder, did the actors really know all these details about the expandeduniverse at the time? I've read recently that, while filming, they weren't even sure that Ben was going to die ( or "die")until it got closer to film the scene... and, in fact, in THE HIDDEN FORTRESS, the Ben character doesn't die in the big duel. How much, I wonder, did Lucas have planned out and how much just fell into place well? And how far do we go into the Star Wars universe? Can we really take anything from the Star Wars Holilday Special of '78 seriously - besides the intro of Boba Fett - or is anything in the Marvel comics series to be considered in this universe? And we both know that reps for Lucas were following that pretty close so nothing was either contradicted or given away early from Lucas' vision, so Lucas took it pretty seriously.. can we? I mean, in general, what is part of the Star Wars universe and what is strickly entertainmnet using the Star Wars characters , where continuity or "facts" don't so much matter; where is that line?

 

[Dave2112]

Ok, first off, that was a BIG mistake on my part, attributing the Tarkin character to Christopher Lee and not Peter Cushing, to whom it rightfully belongs. I was typing fast and had Christopher Lee on my mind, as he is going to be playing Count Dokuu in the next film. My bad.

As far as the Marvel Comics adaption of the '70's, they were "apocryphic", not having anything to do with the actual continuing story.

Many of the actors were (and still are not) told how thier parts fit inot the big picture, for reasons of secrecy. Alec Guinees was told only to act as if he "had to come up with something quickly" in the aforementioned scene with Mark Hamill.

In "The Empire Strikes Back", Mark Hammill wasn't told until the day of final shooting that Vader would reveal his heritage to him. The initial rehearsal shots had David Prowse (later to be dubbed by James Earl Jones, so they could pretty much get away with anything) saying that Obi-Wan was Luke's father.

Lucas is really anal about giving anything big away to even his own actors. In a recent interview with the woman playing Zam Wessell, an Ep II bounty hunter, she said that she was only given the script pertaining to her part and still doesn't know exacly where or how she fits in. The same goes for the actors playing Jango and Boba Fett.

Don't take anything in the Star Wars Holiday special seriously. It was an isolated thing.

There were, and still are, a lot of ways that Lucas keeps his actors on their toes and almost everyone save the executive producer, Rick McCallum (sp?), has no idea how the final product will come together.

Many of the things about Star Wars history are previous rumors that have taken on a life of their own.

"Splinter of the Mind's Eye" was a touchy book. It was written by Alan Dean Foster when no one was sure that there would even BE a sequel to Star Wars. Many of the things in that book contradicted future parts of the expanded universe. Luke was nowhere near ready to do what he did against Vader in that novel, but even that was explained later. It was said that the spirit of Obi-Wan "Possesed" Luke to do battle.

Pretty much anything after "The Empire Strikes Back" can be taken as part of the legitimate Star Wars Universe. Anything before that, you have to be careful, as a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon between '77 and '79.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Thanks, Dave - great answers! I guess you're right, after '79 -'80 or so is when the Star Wars universe really expands and gets more solid. I still remeber reading how Staw Wars, and certainly on the Empire Strikes back, how everyone got scripts with different color pages, and they only got the colors that corresponded with their characters, and so on. And Dave Prouse didn't even realize Vader was Lukes father until he was in the theater watching it! The associated rumors with what was going to happen to Han Solo... filming under the title "Blue Harvest".....it's hard to know what to belive!

I think it's great having Christopher Lee in the nest film. I knew a few years ago he was quite sick and was possibly going to die, but he now seems to be making a mini comeback. Putting Lee and Cushing both into the Star Wars saga is wonderful, I think!

Thanks for all the great details and sketching things out, Dave. I'm beginning to get that feeling all over gain of 77-78 ... realizing that thatere was already so much wonderful Star Wars materail out there, and realizing with childish impatience that there was so much more left to come!

 

[Dave2112]

Thanks for all the great questions! Star Wars is kind of special to me, more modern-day mythology than pure Sci-Fi.

On a side note...Not only is the previously ailing Christopher Lee playing a Dark Force user in the next film, he apparently did most of his own swordplay with Hayden Christiansen. Not bad considering he recently played Sauramon in LOTR as well. It's nice to have some of the classic actors taking predominant roles in new films.

Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing both brought some respectability to the acting of Star Wars back in '77 when the others were mostly unknowns. When Ben and Luke meet Han for the first time and Han brags about the speed of the Falcon, watch the look that Alec Guiness gives him...there's a lot of words in that look. This subtlety would have been lost on the other actors at that time.

This really has been a great thread, thanks again.

😎

 

[Biscuit]

Just have to chime in ...

First of all, I've read almost all of the novelizations, and althought I don't claim anywhere near Dave's level of competence, I am thoroughly familiar with the SW universe and characters. So let me just say something, from the bottom of my jaded heart ...

Star Wars (the movies) is NOT science fiction in the true sense of the word. Actually, most of the hollywood type SF is actually a completely different genre called "space opera". Let me furthere state that many of the fine books written by some of the better authors are actually SF, but I strongly disagree with anyone that calls Star Wars science fiction. The story could have been told just about anywhere, with some relatively minor adjustments. Allow me to elaborate:

Science Fiction is a genre of literature that deals specifically with science, technology, and future social and ethical developments as they pertain to the human condition. Extrapolation of the present into the future is the goal of true SF, as well as investigating the ethical and social dilemmas that our increasing understanding of the universe provides. True SF is actually rare, most books and films billing themselves as such fall under the "action/adventure that happens to be in the future", "fantasy", or "Space Opera" genre, which are most definately NOT SF.

Movies that ARE SF

The Day the Earth Stood Still (classic)

Contact

Dune (the new one is better at portraying the books, but the original had much better acting overall)

Soldier

Blade Runner (classic)

AI


Action/Adventure

Any Arnold S. "Sci-fi" with the exception of the Sixth Day

Starship Troopers (this was actually a VERY good book, that was thoroughly butchered by this shallow interpretation)



Space Opera

Star Wars (all of them)

Most of the Star Trek series, although they generally try SF themes, they usually are far too shallow to qualify as true SF



I'm sure that many of you will disagree with me most strenuously. In my defence, let me say that I Loved all the Star Wars movies, considered them unlike anything I had seen at the time. Liked some of the Star Trek movies, most notably the least SF of them, ST II! So I'm really not intending to be snobbish, just clarifying. I like to call a spade a spade.

What do I read ...

Dorsai and the Final Encyclopedia series

Dune (1st three only)

Ender's Game and series

Now That's Sci-fi!

Comments and fruit throwing welcome! (bring it on, Dave, I know you're just seething by now 😉 )

 

[Dave2112]

Actually, Biscuit, I'm not seething at all. You're pretty much right on the mark. I never really liked Star Wars being pigeonholed as Sci-Fi. I've always said that it's a story that's been told before, in just about every society in one form or another. The Unassuming Farmboy hooks up with the Old Wizard and the Reluctant Pirate to rescue the Beautiful Princess from the Dark Overlord, and Discover his Destiny.

The last thing I read that I'd call True Hard Sci-Fi was Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy.

Thanks for the input, my friend.😎

 

[Oddjob0226]

I agree with Dave, Biscuit; you are on target. Star Wars, on the surface, is Sci-Fi as a genre; underneath, it could be contained in any genre ( some compare it to a Western, and The Hidden Fortress, from which it borrows heavily, was a war film.) It is mostly a morality tale dealing with mythological lore and figures... it is SF only in how it is presented....

 

[Dave2112]

No problem at all, Biscuit. I'm glad that there are some out there who know the difference, actually. I think that's what drew me to Star Wars in the first place. It DOESN'T rely on the toys and gadgets and "Sci-Fi" stuff to work. It's really about the people and their beliefs.

Rebellions have risen against Empires in many eras on this planet. The Small have overcome the Mighty thousands of time. This one just happens to take place in an advanced society with more real estate to deal with.

To say that Star Wars is about spaceships and lasers is to say that the Nazi Occupation of Europe was about bullets and tanks. The technology was secondary to the struggle itself and the reasons behind it.

That's why I had a hard time really getting into Star Trek. It always seemed that after devoting fifty-five minutes to an episode, I always got handed the same solution to every dilemma..."Fire a cross-phased, modified, de-parallaxed proton burst...that should break it up/kill them all/reverse time..." Not to slam Star Trek fans in any way, just to point out the difference between the two.

😎 😎 😀 😎 😎

 

[BigJim]

Leia did start to use a lightsaber (acquired from Vima-da-Boda for those who care), a crimson one, actually. But as Mal stated, her life of politics took precedence over any Jedi training. She has latent abilities, but no real control. By New Jedi Order, little has changed there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Leia's first lightsabre come from Luke who built a green-bladed one? This was in the Thrawn Trilogy if I remember correctly.

Also for those of you wondering about Leia wasting the Force, although she didn't pursue development of it to Luke's standard herself, all 3 of her kids were immensely powerful Jedi; particularly her third, Anakin Jr.