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The Dungeon */f
- Thread starter ViperGTS
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I believe Celtic is right in his post about people needing to be critiqued, not just blindly complimented regardless of the quality/circumstance of the piece provided. If everyone was told "hey, that's great!" there wouldn't be any need for anyone to ever practice their technique, and we'd end up with even more bad art than already exists. We don't need any more rathergood Quiznos ads, thankyouverymuch.
Now, I'm no art scholar, but I'm fully capable of pointing out technique issues and flaws in the general overall approach. I feel bad critiquing without having anything of my own to offer, but I guess I'll just have to go ahead regardless.
Keep in mind that all of my critiques will be only my opinion, and that I'm no authority whose word should be heeded with puritanical fanaticism. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.
I'm going to call things as I see them, and not mince words or sugarcoat. Conversely, I'm not going to point out things that need not be pointed out for the sake of being mean or overdoing it with the criticism. If I say something, I'm not saying it to be an asshole. I have nothing to lose or gain by telling anyone anything, so there's no reason for me to be nice or mean. Sometimes I'll be harsh, but it's only because something harsh needed to be said.
I've decided to start with this one because, well, it was one of the first ones I saw. I haven't visited this area of the forum until just a few minutes ago, and the first two posts I've seen have been the one about how we should be critiquing, and then a few of these images.
Okay. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this netculture reference, but there was a cartoonist... still is, I guess... named David Gonterman who did his best to draw anime and believed himself to be the next greatest thing since Japanese pop culture. He couldn't understand why people criticized his work the way they did, and he responded very poorly to criticism. Often, he'd draw... erm, well... try to... draw... the critics into a cartoon with vague, childish threat implications in his works. David Gonterman is a douchebag. I say this to demonstrate a lesson in how to handle criticism. If someone says something you don't like, don't get all worked up and pissy about it and draw them into a badly-drawn webcomic.
I also bring up Gonterman for another reason. This drawing style is very similar to his. Let's start with the bad:
Viper, I recommend you download images of nude women from the internet and practice drawing them. It's not anime, but it will give you a feel for the curves and proportions of the human body and how everything comes together. A lot of young aspiring artists want to dive right into drawing what they want to draw, but in the end, without the basic fundamentals of art and figure drawing, they're never going to really understand what they're doing, and will probably never get all that good at it. Practice drawing real things first. Sketch your own hand. Get into details with fingernails and wrinkles and folds and hair. Focus on how the hand itself looks, with the tendons and veins, and the proportions of finger bones to each other and to the hand itself. Draw a single eye, over and over and over again until you like how it looks. Look at how people and things actually look, in real life, and what the dimensions of their bodies are. If you look at anime, you'll notice that it's not just a cartoon, it's often a very detailed representation of the human form.
Specifically, in this image:
Upper arms, where they meet the torso, thin out. Shoulders don't just turn into lumps between the top of the arm and the neck when the arms are raised. Put your own arm up in a mirror and see how the shoulders react to that change.
Hands are all wrong. Totally disproportionate to the rest of the body. They'd probably slip right through the cuffs. Make a fist and compare its size with your wrist. It's not going to just taper off, unless you're a Child of Thalidomide.
Breasts - Like two eggs nailed to a post. Breasts (natural ones, at least) usually curve inward from the tops and outward from the bottom, with the nipple generally as the point where the two curves meet. They're not just these nebulous balls on someone's chest. Yes, supported by a sports bra, they're going to be more supported and thus "rounder", but not that round.
Below her breasts, her torso is shaped like a bowling pin. Again, a figure drawing session would help significantly. Study how the breasts sit upon the rib cage, and how the rib cage and the belly meet. She has no curves. She has a flat torso.
Again, with the curves: Hips. Where are her hips? Study how the sides curve out just below the belly. Unless she's a twelve year old with apparently breast implants, she shouldn't have a body this lacking in curves. While I'm not saying that all women that you draw should have an hourglass figure, they should at least have some form to their bodies. Most women, whatever their weight, have at least SOME level of hips. Draw some real life nude images that you find online.
Her left leg (our right) is the same width the whole way down. It's like a tree trunk. Calves/shins and thighs shouldn't be the same size and shape. Knees are too nebulous. On the straight leg, it's nothing but this slight, vague lump. The other leg is much better, but still feels unnatural and somehow wrong. Look at real people. I can't stress this enough. Stand in the mirror and lift your leg as you'd imagine this girl would be doing. Draw a line figure "skeleton" of the position in which you want your character to be, then draw around/over that skeleton. It may help to think of things as basic shapes. And that foot is totally off.
The head is asymmetrical. It doesn't really even meet the typical "anime" look. I mean, I know what you're going for, and that you're going to say "well, I'm going for that kind of look!" I think you have the right idea down, but you have to set a good foundation in figure art. Anime artists base their art on real life.
I'd suggest actually drawing a background, so that the feathers aren't just coming out of these holes from nowhere. I'd also add some substance to the chains so they're not just lines. Nothing in real life is just a line.
Shading is another story entirely. Where is the shading? It would take too long to really give a shading tutorial, but you should look into some books online for various shading techniques. Again, looking at reality and real objects and nude models will help out A LOT. You can get a good feel for how light works when cast from different angles over the body. Get away from the flat, two-dimensional thing, too. From what I've seen so far, it seems like you tend to stick close to images of girls straight-on. Though let's take this one step at a time.
Aside from that, download a lot of anime pictures and try copying them. Even focusing on little details like different kinds of anime mouths and anime eyes will help in getting a feel for the "anime" style in general. I really, seriously hope you take this advice for practicing to heart. I feel there IS some level of potential here, and if you take the time to dedicate yourself to practicing technique and developing your style, you can produce some great-quality images.
(There's more, but I'll save it for another time, or other images.)
Now, the good:
Effort is indeed appreciated. As there are so few people who contribute artwork to this forum, it's fantastic that you take the effort to make these pictures and scan them for everyone to see. I commend you for your bravery in this. Your idea is good, and the general pose and scenario is well thought-out.
You're not bad, it's just that you lack a feel for the human body and its proportions, and anime's reality-base. You have the idea, but you really just need to hammer it out and work with all the details.
Seriously, draw things in real life. Draw a vase. Draw a clock. Draw a roll of duct tape. Draw a bowl. Draw a cluster of rabbit turds that you see in the yard behind your house. Draw people. Draw nude models that you find pictures of online. Sketch CD's. Sketch eyeballs. Draw the view from your bed. Anything. It'll help develop your founding basis for reality in the anime. Trust me on this.
Take care, and good luck. Sorry if it was a bit harsh, but it had to be said.
Now, I'm no art scholar, but I'm fully capable of pointing out technique issues and flaws in the general overall approach. I feel bad critiquing without having anything of my own to offer, but I guess I'll just have to go ahead regardless.
Keep in mind that all of my critiques will be only my opinion, and that I'm no authority whose word should be heeded with puritanical fanaticism. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.
I'm going to call things as I see them, and not mince words or sugarcoat. Conversely, I'm not going to point out things that need not be pointed out for the sake of being mean or overdoing it with the criticism. If I say something, I'm not saying it to be an asshole. I have nothing to lose or gain by telling anyone anything, so there's no reason for me to be nice or mean. Sometimes I'll be harsh, but it's only because something harsh needed to be said.
I've decided to start with this one because, well, it was one of the first ones I saw. I haven't visited this area of the forum until just a few minutes ago, and the first two posts I've seen have been the one about how we should be critiquing, and then a few of these images.
Okay. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this netculture reference, but there was a cartoonist... still is, I guess... named David Gonterman who did his best to draw anime and believed himself to be the next greatest thing since Japanese pop culture. He couldn't understand why people criticized his work the way they did, and he responded very poorly to criticism. Often, he'd draw... erm, well... try to... draw... the critics into a cartoon with vague, childish threat implications in his works. David Gonterman is a douchebag. I say this to demonstrate a lesson in how to handle criticism. If someone says something you don't like, don't get all worked up and pissy about it and draw them into a badly-drawn webcomic.
I also bring up Gonterman for another reason. This drawing style is very similar to his. Let's start with the bad:
Viper, I recommend you download images of nude women from the internet and practice drawing them. It's not anime, but it will give you a feel for the curves and proportions of the human body and how everything comes together. A lot of young aspiring artists want to dive right into drawing what they want to draw, but in the end, without the basic fundamentals of art and figure drawing, they're never going to really understand what they're doing, and will probably never get all that good at it. Practice drawing real things first. Sketch your own hand. Get into details with fingernails and wrinkles and folds and hair. Focus on how the hand itself looks, with the tendons and veins, and the proportions of finger bones to each other and to the hand itself. Draw a single eye, over and over and over again until you like how it looks. Look at how people and things actually look, in real life, and what the dimensions of their bodies are. If you look at anime, you'll notice that it's not just a cartoon, it's often a very detailed representation of the human form.
Specifically, in this image:
Upper arms, where they meet the torso, thin out. Shoulders don't just turn into lumps between the top of the arm and the neck when the arms are raised. Put your own arm up in a mirror and see how the shoulders react to that change.
Hands are all wrong. Totally disproportionate to the rest of the body. They'd probably slip right through the cuffs. Make a fist and compare its size with your wrist. It's not going to just taper off, unless you're a Child of Thalidomide.
Breasts - Like two eggs nailed to a post. Breasts (natural ones, at least) usually curve inward from the tops and outward from the bottom, with the nipple generally as the point where the two curves meet. They're not just these nebulous balls on someone's chest. Yes, supported by a sports bra, they're going to be more supported and thus "rounder", but not that round.
Below her breasts, her torso is shaped like a bowling pin. Again, a figure drawing session would help significantly. Study how the breasts sit upon the rib cage, and how the rib cage and the belly meet. She has no curves. She has a flat torso.
Again, with the curves: Hips. Where are her hips? Study how the sides curve out just below the belly. Unless she's a twelve year old with apparently breast implants, she shouldn't have a body this lacking in curves. While I'm not saying that all women that you draw should have an hourglass figure, they should at least have some form to their bodies. Most women, whatever their weight, have at least SOME level of hips. Draw some real life nude images that you find online.
Her left leg (our right) is the same width the whole way down. It's like a tree trunk. Calves/shins and thighs shouldn't be the same size and shape. Knees are too nebulous. On the straight leg, it's nothing but this slight, vague lump. The other leg is much better, but still feels unnatural and somehow wrong. Look at real people. I can't stress this enough. Stand in the mirror and lift your leg as you'd imagine this girl would be doing. Draw a line figure "skeleton" of the position in which you want your character to be, then draw around/over that skeleton. It may help to think of things as basic shapes. And that foot is totally off.
The head is asymmetrical. It doesn't really even meet the typical "anime" look. I mean, I know what you're going for, and that you're going to say "well, I'm going for that kind of look!" I think you have the right idea down, but you have to set a good foundation in figure art. Anime artists base their art on real life.
I'd suggest actually drawing a background, so that the feathers aren't just coming out of these holes from nowhere. I'd also add some substance to the chains so they're not just lines. Nothing in real life is just a line.
Shading is another story entirely. Where is the shading? It would take too long to really give a shading tutorial, but you should look into some books online for various shading techniques. Again, looking at reality and real objects and nude models will help out A LOT. You can get a good feel for how light works when cast from different angles over the body. Get away from the flat, two-dimensional thing, too. From what I've seen so far, it seems like you tend to stick close to images of girls straight-on. Though let's take this one step at a time.
Aside from that, download a lot of anime pictures and try copying them. Even focusing on little details like different kinds of anime mouths and anime eyes will help in getting a feel for the "anime" style in general. I really, seriously hope you take this advice for practicing to heart. I feel there IS some level of potential here, and if you take the time to dedicate yourself to practicing technique and developing your style, you can produce some great-quality images.
(There's more, but I'll save it for another time, or other images.)
Now, the good:
Effort is indeed appreciated. As there are so few people who contribute artwork to this forum, it's fantastic that you take the effort to make these pictures and scan them for everyone to see. I commend you for your bravery in this. Your idea is good, and the general pose and scenario is well thought-out.
You're not bad, it's just that you lack a feel for the human body and its proportions, and anime's reality-base. You have the idea, but you really just need to hammer it out and work with all the details.
Seriously, draw things in real life. Draw a vase. Draw a clock. Draw a roll of duct tape. Draw a bowl. Draw a cluster of rabbit turds that you see in the yard behind your house. Draw people. Draw nude models that you find pictures of online. Sketch CD's. Sketch eyeballs. Draw the view from your bed. Anything. It'll help develop your founding basis for reality in the anime. Trust me on this.
Take care, and good luck. Sorry if it was a bit harsh, but it had to be said.
At the same time my dear Machival, it was not directly stated that he was shooting for anime in this current thread. Rajee, whose works lacks shading and all the fine touches, are that way because he shoots for a more cartoon look.
Not all people shoot for reality, they may tend to draw their own fantasies. The lack of proportion on the body isn't anything new anyway, even in anime. Oversized breasts, skinny bodies, it has all be done before in earnest.
I agree that it was just critiquing, but just consider commenting on different points of view.
If I was attempting to draw the mona lisa as a cartoon, then I might give her a large head, tiny body etc. If I did it in an anime style, it'd probably have her with a ridiculously large mouth. It all is in style.
This is just my two cents though, and I haven't slept in a few days, so i'm going to bed, night.
Not all people shoot for reality, they may tend to draw their own fantasies. The lack of proportion on the body isn't anything new anyway, even in anime. Oversized breasts, skinny bodies, it has all be done before in earnest.
I agree that it was just critiquing, but just consider commenting on different points of view.
If I was attempting to draw the mona lisa as a cartoon, then I might give her a large head, tiny body etc. If I did it in an anime style, it'd probably have her with a ridiculously large mouth. It all is in style.
This is just my two cents though, and I haven't slept in a few days, so i'm going to bed, night.
rajee
Level of Cherry Feather
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2001
- Messages
- 10,968
- Points
- 38
Getting better
😀 I liked the theme of the cartoon. Great job on the feathers. I liked the choice on the colors. You have gotten better since I've seen in your post of your older work. From an improving cartoonist to another, I applaud you for taking a chance and putting your cartoons for other members to see. I, myself have been thinking on how to improve my cartoons and have been practicing.
All I can add is don't be afraid or intimidated to show your progress, like you have already done, in either forum. Use the constructive advice to guide you as you get better and take the rest of the critiques with "a grain of salt."
😀 I liked the theme of the cartoon. Great job on the feathers. I liked the choice on the colors. You have gotten better since I've seen in your post of your older work. From an improving cartoonist to another, I applaud you for taking a chance and putting your cartoons for other members to see. I, myself have been thinking on how to improve my cartoons and have been practicing.
All I can add is don't be afraid or intimidated to show your progress, like you have already done, in either forum. Use the constructive advice to guide you as you get better and take the rest of the critiques with "a grain of salt."
@Myst - I appreciate you taking the time to see my point of view. 😀
Celtic_Emperor
3rd Level White Feather
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2002
- Messages
- 9,619
- Points
- 0
@ Machival-
First off, thank you. That was totally unexpected though greatly appriciated. And good for you.
Its always good to see another brave soul who isn't afraid to speak their mind (within their means and allowance) come out. I know there any many more out there, perhaps more here than can be counted. I wish they would come out and say something to further legitmize what we are doing.
Second, like myself, you appriciate the value that a critique can have. Like myself, you do not so do to 'eat alive' an artist or presenter or to hurt their feelings, rather you give your honest opinion with reasons to boot. Everything you said about critiquing with the exception of not having anything to present (since I do) I agreed with. Good form. I perhaps couldn't have said it better myself. And the fact you said something in whole or in part because of me, makes me glad.
Third, be prepared for the aftermath of your posts at all times. Provided what you said was not an attack then all should be well. Although there will be those that choose to see it as nothing but an attack despite your efforts and proof of the contrary. You will find that there are certain people that will cling together to protect a common sentiment the same as we would be doing in protecting our right to fair opinion. Obviously you've read the incidental threads, since you mentioned me by name. While I don't need to recap the results (which were favorable), I mention it only as a verification to what I just said.
Be prepared. Critiquing doesn't make one popular, and its not for the faint of heart. But obviously you have meticulously proven that that is of no concern to you. Well done.
Now, on to the actual art which I have my own opinions about to add to this "discussion" as Myriads put it.
@ Viper-
I like this picture. Its a definite improvement over what I've seen from you before, especially the last thread I posted in where the angle and expression/tickling was an issue.
The point is, its not an issue here. The feathers are more real and pronounced. They have a sense of depth and weight to them. Thus, they look as if they really are ticklish, and the girl's expression looks as good as the tickling does.
Its obvious you paid more attention to the details (however minor they may be) in this one, and I applaud you for that.
However, like Machival said basically, the proportions could use some refinement in my opinion. Theres no need to go over what exactly, since Machival pretty much covered everything.
Overall though, you win out with this picture and should feel good about it, because its definitely an improvement over pictures past. You really seem to be developing quite nicely with your art and thats always a treat to see. Keep it up, I'm rooting for you. 🙂
First off, thank you. That was totally unexpected though greatly appriciated. And good for you.
Its always good to see another brave soul who isn't afraid to speak their mind (within their means and allowance) come out. I know there any many more out there, perhaps more here than can be counted. I wish they would come out and say something to further legitmize what we are doing.
Second, like myself, you appriciate the value that a critique can have. Like myself, you do not so do to 'eat alive' an artist or presenter or to hurt their feelings, rather you give your honest opinion with reasons to boot. Everything you said about critiquing with the exception of not having anything to present (since I do) I agreed with. Good form. I perhaps couldn't have said it better myself. And the fact you said something in whole or in part because of me, makes me glad.
Third, be prepared for the aftermath of your posts at all times. Provided what you said was not an attack then all should be well. Although there will be those that choose to see it as nothing but an attack despite your efforts and proof of the contrary. You will find that there are certain people that will cling together to protect a common sentiment the same as we would be doing in protecting our right to fair opinion. Obviously you've read the incidental threads, since you mentioned me by name. While I don't need to recap the results (which were favorable), I mention it only as a verification to what I just said.
Be prepared. Critiquing doesn't make one popular, and its not for the faint of heart. But obviously you have meticulously proven that that is of no concern to you. Well done.
Now, on to the actual art which I have my own opinions about to add to this "discussion" as Myriads put it.
@ Viper-
I like this picture. Its a definite improvement over what I've seen from you before, especially the last thread I posted in where the angle and expression/tickling was an issue.
The point is, its not an issue here. The feathers are more real and pronounced. They have a sense of depth and weight to them. Thus, they look as if they really are ticklish, and the girl's expression looks as good as the tickling does.
Its obvious you paid more attention to the details (however minor they may be) in this one, and I applaud you for that.
However, like Machival said basically, the proportions could use some refinement in my opinion. Theres no need to go over what exactly, since Machival pretty much covered everything.
Overall though, you win out with this picture and should feel good about it, because its definitely an improvement over pictures past. You really seem to be developing quite nicely with your art and thats always a treat to see. Keep it up, I'm rooting for you. 🙂
Last edited:
Lauren Tyler
1st Level Red Feather
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Messages
- 1,191
- Points
- 36
That's pretty good. Remember, nobody starts off knowing how to draw. You've got to learn to walk before you can run, as quoted as in one of my artwork books. So don't give up!
Myst said:
I agree with you, and I just thought I'd mention that anime are just cartoons anyway (anime being short for 'animeshion', animation romanized). As I've said to many people, in Japan anime is the term used to refer to anything animated, even something like Simpsons or Spongebob Squarepants. Well, anyway, before I go off on a tangent -- there just isn't really one specific anime style. Look at Crayon Shin-chan for instance, or Ebichu. So yeah, many many styles, 'anime', Japanese or otherwise, doesn't all have to look the same. ^^x
Myst said:
There's a difference between drawing things stylistically disproportionately and inadvertantly making them disproportionate because of lack of skill. I was referring to the latter, not the former. I'm perfectly aware that various styles of animation use massively disproportionate heads, bodies, whatever. In fact, if most cartoon females were made into real women, they'd have such tremendous back problems that they wouldn't even be able to stand up. I'm not talking about the style of cartooning as opposed to photographic realism, I'm talking about the basic concept of continuity within a drawing. If one thigh is half the size of the other, it's not because he wanted it to look like a cartoon. If the hands taper to points, it's not that he's making them sylistically disproportionate because he wants to make it like a cartoon. There's a major difference between "wanting something to look like a cartoon" and "having untrained or poor drawing skills". If I drew a woman with one arm half the length of the other, and she was supposedly supposed to portray a "normal" woman (that's not the case in this drawing, I'm using it as an example) could I just write it off as "wanting it to look like a cartoon"?
Also, I'm clear on the definition of 'anime'. Most often, when someone speaking English refers to 'anime', they don't mean the literal Japanese translation of "anything animated", they mean the particular style of animation commonly attributed to the Japanese.
