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The nature of the Force: Star Wars Spirituality. Dave, get over here! :-)

BigJim

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This is gonna be kind of difficult, because before the thread can really get going, it needs an infusion of knowledge from Dave2112, a.k.a. Master Ci Rynn Katarn, teacher of all things Force-like to Jedi Padawan Jimmikin. 😀

Dave, how exactly do you see the nature of the Force? As I mentioned somewhere else, my actual spiritual beliefs only deviate from the concept of the Jedi by a few salient points. We discussed that on another thread; the difference between the Living and the Unifying Force. Now as far as I'm aware these two concepts in the star Wars universe are two different philosophies about the same entity; the Force. I see them in real life (if you can appropriate these two terms and use them to describe real spirituality) as being two totally seperate things, that sometimes work in conjunction. How exactly would you describe these two terms Dave, and how would you describe the canon version of "the Force" overall? I know in r/l you're a Christian, but answer this one straight out of Lucas-ville if you can, then I'll wax lyrical a bit about how I compare similarities between r/l and the way it's described in the SW films.
 
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Actually, in real-life, I'm a quasi-Christian. I believe in the son of God concept etc. but do not follow many of Man's dogmatic dictoms. We shant get into that. However, I do follow the teachings of the Force as they relate to real life in many ways, so I can answer your question both from a r/l standpoint and an "in-universe" canon viewpoint as well.

However, I'm on my way out at the moment and want to give this a very deep going-over. Allow me to meditate on your question and I will respond later this evening. There are differences between the Living and Unifying Force, and how they spin off from the Potentium, so let me think on how best to put it into words.

CRK
 
So, you want to discuss the nature of the Force? Strap yourself in, because it gets a little tricky. Keep in mind that no matter what your outlook or what may have been discovered or will be discovered…one thing still holds true after all these years. As Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, many things you hold true will depend greatly on your own point of view. Meaning, in particular, that much of one’s intent and outlook can have a larger impact on one’s relationship and standing in the Unifying Force than actual actions.

There is a lot about the Force that simply cannot be fully understood from the films only. As a viewer of the films, we can conclude that the Force is an energy field created by all living things that penetrates everything. There are many who are Force-sensitive, and those that devote their lives to the study of the Force may become Jedi. A certain “cult” if you will exists (or once existed) that concentrated on the raw power of the Force without its spiritual guidance…those were the Sith. Notice that I didn’t say that the Sith focused on the “Dark Side”. This is because the very existence of a dark or a light side depends greatly on how you view the Force and how the “sides” are incorporated into the Living and/or Unifying Forces.

Rather than delve into page after page of my own personal views (although I’m sure that it will follow after this post), I think the best thing to do is quote a long passage from the book “The Unifying Force”, the last novel in the New Jedi Order series. It is an exchange between Jacen Solo (eldest son of Han Solo and Leia Organa) and Luke Skywalker.

First, you must understand the background of the exchange, so here’s a brief encapsulation of what brought about this revealing dialog. Jacen has been through hell in last few years. The death of his younger brother, Anakin (once assumed to be the heir-apparent to Luke Skywalker due to the ease with which he wielded his above-average power) had left Jacen questioning his place in the Force. He went through a long period in which he abandoned all use of the Force out of fear of not knowing true light from true dark and the small steps it would take to throw it out of balance (ala Kyle Katarn). Then he met Vergere. A Fosh Jedi of the Old Republic, she was on Zonama Sekot when the Yuuzhan Vong first scouted into the galaxy almost fifty years prior. Long story short, she went along with them to study them, becoming a “pet” of sorts. During the first ten books or so, it wasn’t really known what she was, a Yuuzhan Vong agent, a spy for either side…it was confusing. She secretly and deeply expanded her knowledge of the Force during her time with the Vong in order to figure out why the alien species didn’t appear in the Force. Then she came across Jacen Solo. Another long story short, Jacen was put through a nearly fatal trial of sorts, never really knowing if Vergere was helping him or using him. Having been stripped of the Force, he had to endure physical and emotional pain, utter loneliness and abandonment, and the tearing-down of everything he though he believed in before Vergere revealed her true intentions of making him into the kind of Jedi needed in the New Order, one able to come to grips with the revelations to come.

In this exchange, Luke and Jacen are standing on a precipice overlooking the landscape of the living, sentient planet Zonama Sekot (actually a two-fold description, Zonama being the planet, Sekot being the mind, the “awareness”). Having once repelled an attempted Yuuzhan Vong attack fifty years prior, the planet is convinced by Luke Skywalker to come out of hiding and join the fight against the invaders, a war that the shattered New Republic (disbanded, now known as the Galactic Alliance) is losing badly. There was a lot involved in getting to that point, so you’ll have to read the books for more info on that. However, a sabotage attempt by Nom Anor has left the massive hyperdrive core of the planet in shaky condition and caused terrific damage to the planet’s structure, and Sekot is making microjumps to test its abilities fully before returning to known space. Sekot has taken to appearing in recognizable forms to Luke and Jacen…Anakin Skywalker to Luke and Vergere to Jacen. (Vergere having sacrificed her life to save Jacen and his sister Jaina previously.)

Jacen has returned from a conversation with Sekot appearing as Vergere, explaining a little more about why she told Jacen that the Force has no dark side. It was the first Ferroan Magistar (early settlers) that coaxed Sekot to awareness and taught it that the Force was part of the Potentium…for lack of a better word, the energy of existence itself, of which the Force is a manifestation. The mystery of why the Yuuzhan Vong don’t appear in the Force is revealed…it isn’t because they don’t exist as part of it, but because at some point in their development, they were stripped of it. (I haven’t finished the book yet, so I don’t yet know why or how.) They are still a part of the Potentium. Sekot was taught by the Ferroans that evil doesn’t exist in the Force, but the Vong taught it that evil actions do. This is a quote from what it said to Jacen after he asked if Sekot would use its power against them…

“If neccessary, but without contempt. If I defeat them aggressively, if I hate them for what they have become, then I will have separated myself from the Force, and permitted ego to triumph over my desire to merge and expand my consciousness. I will have corrupted my light with darkness, stained it forever. Self-awareness tricks us into believing that there is us, and that there is the other. But in serving the Force we recognize that we are all the same thing; that when we act in accordance with the Force we act in accordance with the wish of all life to enlarge itself, to rise out of physicality and become something greater. In that sense, all beings are seed-partners, Jacen, passionate to unite with all life and to help give birth to grand enterprises-whether a starship, a work of art, or a deed that will echo through history as a noble action. To triumph over the Yuuzhan Vong, we must simply go where we wish to go. That is also what I must do to return us to known space. But the task entails far more than simply focusing on a set of hyperspace coordinates. Unless the destination is a place I wish to go, nothing will work out. Even if I execute the jump flawlessly, my actions will come to nothing…”

Ok, so having this to think on, Jacen approaches Luke as he awaits the final jump. There has been a rift of sorts (actually more like a differing of philosophies), and this sequence puts it out on the table. You could probably learn more about the nature of the Force from these few pages than in anything else you’ve read or seen, so I’m going to reproduce it here rather than explain my interpretation of it. It’s a bit long, but it’s what you asked for…

Luke felt Jacen approach from behind him, but he didn’t turn from the view.

“Something has happened,” he said, finally.
“I feel it, Uncle Luke,” Jacen said, “The Jedi, our friends…”
“It’s not only them. The danger is widespread.”
Jacen came alongside him. “Another Ithor, another Barab One?”
“Not yet,” Luke said, “but a new evil has been unleashed.”
“By the Yuuzhan Vong?”
“By the Dark Side.”
Jacen nodded. “Your real enemy.”
Luke turned to him. “You should be thinking about your own course, Jacen, not mine.”
Jacen exhaled with purpose. “I have no one but you to look to, to know which path I should take. Our courses have entangled.”
“Then I guees I’d better listen to what you’ve decided about me.”

Jacen took a moment to collect his thoughts. “From everything you’ve told me over the years about confronting your father and the Emperor, it has always seemed that neither of them was your real enemy. Each tried to entice you to join him. But they were never the source of your fear. You feared falling to the dark side.”
Luke grinned faintly. “Is that all?” he said finally.
Jacen shook his head. “On Coruscant, at the ruins of the Jedi Temple, Vergere said that the Jedi had a shameful secret, and that secret was that there was no dark side. The Force is one. And since there are no separate sides, the Force can’t take sides. Our notions of light and dark only reflect how little we know about the true nature of the Force. What we’ve chosen to call the dark side is simply the raw, unrestrained Force itself, which gives rise to life as easily as it brings death and destruction.”
Luke listened closely. Now I shall show you the true nature of the Force, the Emperor had told him at Endor.
On Mon Calamari, Vergere had tried to lead him down the same path, by implying that Yoda and Obi-Wan were to blame for not telling him the truth about the dark side. As a result of their neglect, when Luke had cut off his father’s hand in anger, he assumed that he had had a close brush with the dark side. When he stood at the side of the cloned Emperor, he had truly felt the dark side. Ever since, he had come to equate anger with darkness itself, and he had passed that along to the Jedi he had tutored. But in fact, according to Vergere, Luke had been misguided by his own ego. She had maintained that, while darkness could remain in someone by invitation, it could just as easily be jettisoned by self-awareness. Once Luke accepted this, he would no longer have to fear being seduced by the dark side.
“You’re suggesting that I’ve held myself back by not wanting to incorporate this raw power into my awareness of the Force,” Luke said.
“Vergere received years of formal training in the Force,” Jacen said. “The things she told me must have been common knowledge among the Jedi of the Old Republic.”
“Vergere was corrupted by the years she spent living with the Yuuzhan Vong,” Luke said evenly.
“Corrupted?”
“Maybe that’s too strong a term. Let’s say strongly influenced.”
“But she felt she hadn’t been influenced by them.”
“She can’t be blamed. Each of us stands at a kind of midpoint, from which we’re capable of seeing only so far in either direction. Our senses have been honed over countless millennia to allow us to navigate the intricacies of the physical world. But because of that, our senses blind us to the fact that we are much more than our bodies. We truly are beings of light, Jacen.
“The emphasis the Jedi have always placed on control operates the same way. Control blinds us to the more expansive nature of the Force. The Jedi of the Old Republic only wanted youngsters for this very reason. Jedi needed to be raised by the light, and to come to see that light as unblemished, undivided. But you and I haven’t had the luxury of that indoctrination. Our lives are a constant test of our will to exorcize any darkness that creeps in.
“In that sense, your instincts about me are correct, and so were Vergere’s. The dark side has, in a sense, dominated my life. I’ve suspected for a long time that the fatigue I sometimes experience when drawing on the Force during combat owes to my fear of abusing the raw power you describe.
“It’s true that the Force is unified; it is one energy, one power. But here’s where I think you and Vergere are incorrect: the dark side is real, because evil actions are real. Sentience gave rise to the dark side. Does it exist in nature? No. Left to itself, nature maintains the balance. But we’ve changed that. We are a new order of consciousness that has an impact on all life. The Force now contains light and dark because of what thinking beings have brought to it. That’s why balance has become something that must be maintained – because our actions have the power to tip the scales.”
“As the Sith did.” Jacen said.
“As the Sith did. The Emperor was perhaps the most self-assured person I have ever encountered, but he deliberately chose evil over good. And in the right climate, one individual, suitably driven and skilled, can tip the universe into darkness. For darkness has followers, especially where discontent, isolation or fear hold sway. In such a climate enemies can be fashioned, imagined out of thin air, and suddenly all good is lost, all perspective vanishes, and illness taked hold.”
Luke paused, then said, “Do you believe that you spoke with Vergere after her death at Ebaq Nine, or were you conversing with the Vergere who existed only in your thoughts and memory?”
Jacen thought for a moment. “I spoke with Vergere. I’m certain of it.”
“Do you believe that I had a vision of Obi-Wan, Yoda and my father after all three had died?”
“I’ve never had any reason to doubt you, Uncle.”
“Then, from where was Vergere speaking?”
“Maybe she learned to tap into a power that was more all-embracing than the Living Force.”
“The Unifying Force,” Luke said, “That might explain it. In fact, all the years since the deaths of Obi-Wan, Yoda and my father, I’ve felt as if the Jedi have been on a quest to recover the Force’s power to glimpse into the future, which is perhaps the nature of the Unifying Force. The search has been not unlike our search for Zonama Sekot. And there’s a power here, in the air and in the trees and in everything else, that convinces me we’ve found our way to something even greater than what we were seeking….”

Confusing enough? As I said, I haven’t reached quite the halfway mark of the book, but this has reinforced my views of the Force. Yes it’s true that light and dark do not exist in the Force, as it is one power. But we can bring light and dark into it. The Force is an enigma, as it envelops all life and all existence and cannot be seen from “the outside”, so to speak. Earlier in the book, Luke tells Mara that he may not fully be a Jedi Master until his final dying breath, when he finally becomes one with it. I think, in a way, that this is true. The Force has always been compared to real-life religions like Taoism and Buddhism, but this is where I feel that it is closest to Christianity in a way. God has said that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven, as it is belief in Christ and the nature of the Trinity that is man’s salvation. True belief will get you into heaven, as freedom from sin cannot…none of us are free from sin. But does this mean that we are given carte blanche to sin? No, it doesn’t. God wants us to go in a certain direction. It’s the same with the Force. The Force, as an occurance of nature, strives for balance. If one truly serves the Force, one truly serves natural balance. Using a Sith-like ability such as what’s commonly referred to as “Force Lightning” doesn’t automatically make one evil. Even using it in anger doesn’t necessarily condemn one to an irreversible path toward the dark side. Anger is an emotion, and no one is immune to it. But using it over and over at every instance of anger could very easily tip that scale. A Jedi must strive with every action to weigh the balance of his/her actions…not the actions themselves. It is how you use the power of the Living Force that determines how you exist within the Unifying Force. A Jedi levitating a rock is manipulating the power of the Living Force. The rock is part of the Unifying Force. The very action itself is part of the Unifying Force.

As I get to the end of the book, and if anything else comes up to further explain this, I’ll fill in the blanks. That’s the “canon” part of it. The personal part of it, the part that allows you to use these teachings in your own life is something that will never be fully learned, or understood.

I hope this has been of some use to you, and I’m fully willing to discuss further and help if I can…

…you’ve reached an interesting part of your training where the flashy lightsaber techniques and neat floaty tricks become secondary.
 
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Dave2112 said:
“Then, from where was Vergere speaking?”
“Maybe she learned to tap into a power that was more all-embracing than the Living Force.”
“The Unifying Force,” Luke said, “That might explain it.

That's the sentence that encapsulates it for me. Before reading that, I'd had it the other way around in my heads as regards the terms though. Let's call what Jacen is talking about the "Higher Force" and the "Lower Force". The Higher Force is what Jacen calls the Unifying Force and the Lower Force is what he thinks of as the Living Force. I'd previously thought of the Living as the higher version because it was the energy of life itself, rather than an energy field that can be manipulated by the human body to levitate, increase speed, turn into lightening, etc. I thought of the Unifying one as being the lower, because it was the one that united the physical with the non-physical and made things like telekinesis possible. Evidently the terms in the books are reversed with different definitions.


Here is how I see the real-life counterpart of the Force, using the terms higher and lower to define the differences. The connecting bridge between the two of them is electro-magnetism.

The Lower Force is generated by all living things, and provides the main ability of psychics, mediums, clairvoyants etc. A human body is a living electromagnet that is surrounded by it's own field. This field has been shown in clinical experiments to double or triple in size when a subjects drinks water that a piece of quartz crystal has been sitting in. When the new-age types talk of auras and what-not, this is what I think of. Scientists say that they've never been able to prove the existence of auras then go and waffle about the electromagnetic field that surround the body. In my view they're the same thing! Electromagnetism has huge physical effects on the world we live in. There's a train in France that actually levitates above the track because of the strength of it's field and flares and sunspots knock out and boost power grids across the world with impunity. Top secret military communications are sent by electromagnetic pulse between transmiters and receivers. If you have a human body that is attuned and practiced enough in the manipulation of this energy you have someone who is capable of telekinesis and telepathy.

The Higher Force is something of a different nature, but connected to the lower and inflenced by it. (Or more probably, it influences it.) Everything we see around us, my desk, my computer, my LCD, me, the floor, the air, the road outside, my thought patterns, my car, my intention of someday getting my arse back in training, is energy vibrating at different frequncies. We look at something solid like a tree that seems totally impenetrable, but in reality it's made of gazillions of paticles that are all vibrating, orbiting and condensing at a low enough frequency to appear as solid on this low dimension. What people think of as "spiritual realms" or "heaven" or "the non-physical" is just exactly the same as we are here, but vibrating on a different frequency; one that is higher than our own. If the particles that make up our body were vibrating at the same speed as they are, this reality would seem intangible to us and that one would seem solid. I think the etheric or spiritual body vibrates at closer to this one. All these different dimension and existences exist in exactly the same space and time as us, but are invisible or intangible because we're not attuned to their frequency. It's very similar to television and radio waves. They are flowing through our bodies constantly in a wave, rather than as particles; but they are completely non-physical to us. (Although closer to our physicality than other realms of existence.) I think the ability to see and hear people who are dead is there because some people have the ability (whether conscious or sub-conscious) to tune their minds to higher frequencies. Perhaps a different name for the Higher Force would be Creation. The boundless energy from which all in existence springs and is born. The Lower is the medium through which the Higher interacts with us. The Higher is sentinent in a way that a single human consciousness cannot perceive, because it is all pervading. That is my conception of God. Everything that exists, including every molecule of us. Not the good side of multi-consciousness, but EVERYTHING that all things serve, whether good or evil. All things Satanic or Christ-like (the dark side and the light side) spring from hukman perception and consciousness. which leads me right on to...

The light side and the dark side.

Jacen's discovery about there being no inherant dark side to the Force didn't come as a shock to me as it was a state of affairs I always assumed to be the case. I was more surprised that someone like Luke didn't already know it. 😱
The light side and the dark side were, I always assumed, just names given for different philosophies on the use of the Force. The light side was the belief that it was there to tap into, but that you were a part of it and a servant of it; that it wasn't some handy bi-product of life's existence that could be used like a box of tools; that you should strive to maintain the balance shown by unspoilt nature when you used it. The dark side WAS the belief that it was there to do as you pleased with. That pure unbridled ambition and desire could be fulfilled at the whim of the user through it. Unbalanced, out of kilter, dangerous and ultimately, self-destroying. As I said earlier, everything in existence serves the will of God/the Force, whether it be good or evil. Perhaps that is why the Sith and their attendant Dark Jedi were allowed to rise to such power under Palpatine; because the Jedi needed a lesson in the nature of the Unifying Force. Thus came the advent of Anakin Skywalker's divine conception, his role in the extermination of the Empire and the Sith, and his progeny's role in the discovery of the true nature of the Force. ( Just how long did it take for George to work all this out? 😱 )

So, do I believe in the nature of spirituality being along the lines of The Force than the fiction (or what I believe is fiction, no-one has to share that view) taught to us by religion? Yes. Do I believe said Force can give people the ability to do all the jumping, mind-tricking, safe dropping and lightsaber twirling seen in the films? Dunno about that, possibly one day when a few millenia of study into it has been done. Certainly I believe it can be used to greatly enhance every aspect of our lives. I believe it's there to tap into and I believe it's through it's bridging to the Higher aspect that psychics etc get their abilities. As for the lightsabres, well not for a looooooong time. It's probably within the ability of human science to be able to generate a stable field of energy like a lightsabre blade, but the power source and equipment would have to be the size of an aircraft carrier. The Force might form the basis of my spirituality in a way, but I don't live in a fiction world. (Despite what readers of my conspiracy threads may believe.)


Is that clear as mud, or what? :blaugh:
 
I see where you're going with this. I can't say I completely disagree, although there are a few leaps there. I think one thing that's important to note is that even though you and I, as readers and viwers of the Star Wars Universe, assumed the nature of the dark side/light side thing to be something along the lines of what's been discovered...the Jedi within this saga did not. That's pretty much the whole point. In the preceding dialog, Luke mentions his belief that the Jedi, since the time of the Old Republic, have been on a quest to (re)discover the Unifying Force, noting the ability to glimpse the Future.

Think of Yoda. How many times from Phantom Menace, through Attack of the Clones and right up to Empire Strikes Back did he try to glimpse the future only to say something like "difficult to see" or something like that. For all of his power, Yoda was not once able to give any real insight into the coming events..."The dark side clouds everything". Right? And remember Mace Windu suggesting to Yoda that they should perhaps tell the Senate that thier "ability to use the Force has been diminished"? What did he mean by that? Does this tell us that at one time a greater level of balance existed between the Living and the Unifying Force that allowed powerful Jedi to more easily see into the future?

I believe that it is the Unifying Force alone that allows this ability, as it exists in all times at once, much like the mystery of omniscience attributed to God. I once asked a theology teacher of mine to explain the paradox of God's ability to know the future while still allowing Man true free will to choose his own course. He said something cryptic...that God sees the future as the present, that time as we know it does not exist to Him. Something similar can be said of the Unifying Force.

This also reinforces Luke's belief that the dark side does exist because sentience has made the division. The Force itself has no sides, but sentient actions have made them...in a metaphysical sort of way. How else would Mace have stated that the Jedi's abilities had "diminished", rather than that they had never been there? Dark actions were throwing the natural balance off, corrupting the perfection of the Unifying Force.

One thing to remember, and this is important, is you are a little off-base on one small but vital point. The Living Force and the Unifying Force are not two seperate things, or two manifestations springing from the same welll, so to speak. They are the same thing...two different aspects of the same thing, the same Force as derived from the Potentium. Think of the Christian belief in the Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One God. Not three parts of one God, but three different things that are at the same time One. It's a paradox. And that's where Jedi often fail to grasp the true nature of the Force...

...it cannot all be explained by science. There has to be some mysticism involved that trancends what we know of the physical universe. As Luke explained to Jacen: Each of us stands at a kind of midpoint, from which we’re capable of seeing only so far in either direction. Our senses have been honed over countless millennia to allow us to navigate the intricacies of the physical world. But because of that, our senses blind us to the fact that we are much more than our bodies. We truly are beings of light...

We, as either outside viewers of the SW universe or strictly as Jedi, have yet to know what that true light is. It's a little like death...the only ones who really know cannot tell us, at least not in a way we can truly comprehend. And I think that this is what really separates Jedi from Sith...the acceptance that we will never know everything, the lack of a need to completely control that which should work in symbiosis with us. I don't need to know exactly how the physics of the Force works to be able to block a blaster shot, but I sure as hell had better have faith that it does. To assume full control and understanding is to assume equality that may not be inherant, which leads to selfishness and egotism...the real path to the dark side.
 
Dave2112 said:
Think of Yoda. How many times from Phantom Menace, through Attack of the Clones and right up to Empire Strikes Back did he try to glimpse the future only to say something like "difficult to see" or something like that. For all of his power, Yoda was not once able to give any real insight into the coming events..."The dark side clouds everything". Right?

Hmmm. I always assumed that was a bi-product of the machinations of Darth Sidious. He was only one man with a sub-ordinate Sith Lord true, but his power was in his influence of others. Two men (Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker) were responsible for the deaths of all but three or four of 10,000 Jedi and the transformation of benign and confederate Republic to totalitarian and intolerant empire. through cunning and deceit.


Dave2112 said:
And remember Mace Windu suggesting to Yoda that they should perhaps tell the Senate that thier "ability to use the Force has been diminished"? What did he mean by that? Does this tell us that at one time a greater level of balance existed between the Living and the Unifying Force that allowed powerful Jedi to more easily see into the future?

Master Windu didn't make a distinction as to what particular Force abilities had diminished. I got the impression it was their handle on the Force overall, that had diminished. This would probably affect divination above all, rather than the ability to use telekinesis or hone the reflexes needed to use a lightsabre. Certainly they were so blinded by the emerging dark side that they could sit within a few feet of a full blown Sith master and not get even a whiff of the dark side.

Dave2112 said:
I believe that it is the Unifying Force alone that allows this ability, as it exists in all times at once, much like the mystery of omniscience attributed to God. I once asked a theology teacher of mine to explain the paradox of God's ability to know the future while still allowing Man true free will to choose his own course. He said something cryptic...that God sees the future as the present, that time as we know it does not exist to Him. Something similar can be said of the Unifying Force.

Time is an abstract concept that only conforms to the laws we concieve for it when it's in this dimension of existence. If "God" was a particular being on another plane of existence rather than the sum total of all creation and the conscious energy that drives it, I have no trouble seeing how time would be an irrelavence for him.
I think it's more likely that the Yahweh/Allah character in the Koran, Torah and Old Testament was just the latest in a line of chiefs of a race known in Sumerian and Babylonian circles, as the Annunaki (or the latest name their chief opted to use, or possibly only the latest name he was given by earthly scholars) which translates into English as Those who from heaven to Earth came. I think this character decided to name himself as the Almighty God and creator of all things, when he was no such thing. Given a character analysis of his actions and feeling, as well as those of his presdecessors, he bore more resemblance to the Sith than anything of the light side. A usurper in other words. (Sounds frighteningly like the feats attributed to Satan, the great deceiver, the liar and the trickster of all humanity. Given the astounding evil committed by the hierarchy of every religious organisation that's ever existed on the planet, I don't find this hard to believe.) For me the Creator is much more than just a single entity who stands at the head of a file of saints, angels etc. It's the unsullied driving force and energy behind perfectly balanced creation that can only be corrupted by free choice people getting it wrong. Heh heh. Mindbending eh?


Dave2112 said:
How else would Mace have stated that the Jedi's abilities had "diminished", rather than that they had never been there? Dark actions were throwing the natural balance off, corrupting the perfection of the Unifying Force.

I definately agree, but not 100%. The few indications we're given in the chronicles are that it's a relatively new occurance that the Jedi knights are so hamstrung in their abilities. I don't think Yoda or Mace ever knew the true nature of the Force. I think they were too focused on maintaing the Jedi along hierarchial lines that were too closely linked to politics. The Unifying
Force seems to me to be something that they never grasped the meaning of.

Dave2112 said:
One thing to remember, and this is important, is you are a little off-base on one small but vital point. The Living Force and the Unifying Force are not two seperate things, or two manifestations springing from the same welll, so to speak. They are the same thing...two different aspects of the same thing, the same Force as derived from the Potentium. Think of the Christian belief in the Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One God. Not three parts of one God, but three different things that are at the same time One. It's a paradox. And that's where Jedi often fail to grasp the true nature of the Force...

That sounds more like a catholic philosphy than a Christian one. Was catholocism the branch of the faith that you were familiar with Dave?
I had a Church of England upbringing in both Church and school, which is a protestant organisation. We were always taught that Jesus was the son of God, not God himself in human form. We were told that Christ was a seperate entity from God, who was empowered by his father to whoop some evil ass in the mortal realm, before ascending back to heaven to prepare for the end days by the side of His Father. Given that Jesus and God often have a conversation with each other in the pages of the Bible and talk as if each one is addressing a seperate entity (This is My Son in whom I am well pleased --- Father I beg thee take this cup from my lips, but if you should not, thy will be done.) this seems even more likely. The Holy Spirit we were given to understand was a bit of a mystery. Our local reverend described it as a Christian equivalent of the ether. Of course now I understand (or should that be believe?) it to be the latest in a long line of bastardisations of spiritual meaning. Christianity's biggest mission was to remove the empowerment of women, so the Goddess figure so prominent in "pagan" holy trinities was relagated to 4th place and the personage of a blessed, but otherwise mortal woman called Mary. (Mary itself was a new variation on a sucession of Goddess names from the pagan world.) The Holy Spirit was invented to replace the female perspective of religion and the gross supression of the feminine aspect of humanity began.(My perspective, not the Christian one. LOL)
The catholic perspecive is that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are indivisible and One, inseperable from each other, in the way you describe the Holy Spirit. In a way that resonates with me, because I believe that everything and everyone is one and the same. We are all vibrating energy and consciousness that is vibrating at the frequency of this particular dimension of existence.

Of course this is entirely the perspective that I gained through my Christian upbringing and education. Protestants and catholics the world over will undoubtedly have their own that contradicts mine entirely.


Dave2112 said:
...it cannot all be explained by science. There has to be some mysticism involved that trancends what we know of the physical universe. As Luke explained to Jacen: Each of us stands at a kind of midpoint, from which we’re capable of seeing only so far in either direction. Our senses have been honed over countless millennia to allow us to navigate the intricacies of the physical world. But because of that, our senses blind us to the fact that we are much more than our bodies. We truly are beings of light...

Definately! Science is in my view, the new religion. The latest mind-prison to limit human consciousness once it became obvious that not enoug people were buying religion for it to be effective as a tool of control. Science doesn't explain the Potentium any more than religion did.


Dave2112 said:
We, as either outside viewers of the SW universe or strictly as Jedi, have yet to know what that true light is. It's a little like death...the only ones who really know cannot tell us, at least not in a way we can truly comprehend. And I think that this is what really separates Jedi from Sith...the acceptance that we will never know everything, the lack of a need to completely control that which should work in symbiosis with us. I don't need to know exactly how the physics of the Force works to be able to block a blaster shot, but I sure as hell had better have faith that it does. To assume full control and understanding is to assume equality that may not be inherant, which leads to selfishness and egotism...the real path to the dark side.

I think humanity as a whole are getting close to the collective truth. Only time will tell if we have the courage to step free of the bonds that have shackled us to this physicality. (Mahatma Ghandi eat yer heart out!😀 Ever hear of the Indian cloakroom attendant? His name was Mahatma Koht.)




*insert*
I had written a couple of hundred words about "faith" Dave, but I felt it was getting a bit too weird for public display. It realted as to why I don't hold to the church's version and seek my own answers instead. I had to delete it though. Quite frankly, people think I'm weird enough without reading that sort of thing. Most just wouldn't understand. One day I'll be totally unconcerned with what people think of me; I'll be truly liberated. Right now though, I'm not. I'm still growing towards it. I'd be happy to give you a potted version in private though, if you like?
 
Dave2112 said:
This also reinforces Luke's belief that the dark side does exist because sentience has made the division. The Force itself has no sides, but sentient actions have made them.

I suppose that this concept that the "Light" and "Dark" Sides of the Force are only products of the user than an inherent element of Force itself can be tied in nicely to what Yoda says in Empire Strikes Back just before Luke enters the cave.

Luke: "What's in there?"
Yoda: "Only what you take with you."
 
Exactly, although he probably meant it more in the context of what Luke was about to face, rather than Yoda's views on the Force as a whole.

Having read a little further today, something caught my attention that I think proves Luke's assertion that one must follow the Force as well as control it. In an attempt to storm the Yuuzhan Vong Supreme Overlord's citadel...Jacen, Jaina and Corran Horn observe Luke battling his way up numerous flights of stairs to reach the top, with hundreds of Vong warriors in his path. To the other Jedi, Luke appeared in the Force as a solitary point of light, more brilliant than even Yoda ever was...without malice or even conscious thought, having finally and completely given himself over to the balance of the Force and where it wanted to go. Not exactly controlling it, but not exactly being a puppet either.

That's the enigma and the paradox I was talking about...control without possesion and service without servitude.

This may also be the final culmination of the prophecy, although again from the infamous Kenobi "point of view". It was Anakin who brought balance to the Force in his selfless act saving Luke, and through that action it became Luke who achieved that balance and brought it to perfection.

Another thing to consider is that Jedi Masters of the Old Republic (and I'm talking way before the events of the Clone War era and even before Yoda's birth) may have known about this balance all along, at least the true Masters. As Jim noted and has been noted in several of the novels, the Jedi Temple's close proximity to the Galactic Senate (after a move which not all Jedi agreed with) put them in the thick of politics, which can corrupt even the most noble after enough time. This could have been the slow first step in losing that balance. The Clone Wars, the Purge and the Civil War left a mere handful of Jedi to bring about the ressurection fo the order, with Luke able to pass along to other Jedi only what he'd figured out for himself, for the most part. That was the second step. I see the New Jedi Order as the first step in bringing about an order along the lines of the Jedi of old, in harmony with life, the Force, the Potentium and everything.

Oh, and one more thing, Jim. Many seem to think of the Purge as Palpatine and Vader single-handedly hunting down and exterminating 10,000 Jedi. By the time the dust settled on the Clone Wars, there were very few left to hunt down. Palpatine used the Clone Wars as his extermination tool. Yes, the Wars were a contrived tool to place himself in absolute power, but more than that, they were the only way to remove the only thing standing in his way...the Jedi. Even he couldn't do it mano-a-mano with all of them.

It's important to note that the Clone Army was created for the Jedi. It was thiers to lead. The Jedi were pressed into service as military commanders and soldiers, which further corrupted the balance of the Force. Another of the Emperor's machinations.

The Jedi's role in the war against the Yuuzhan Vong is much, much different. It's more along the lines of a jihad. Jedi can partake in physical combat without risking the dark side, and I'm not just talking about self-defense or defense of others alone. I'm talking about pre-emptive action. But the way the Clone Wars unfolded was against what the Jedi should have stood for. Once you read NJO, you'll see the difference.
 
Dave2112 said:
Luke appeared in the Force as a solitary point of light, more brilliant than even Yoda ever was...without malice or even conscious thought, having finally and completely given himself over to the balance of the Force and where it wanted to go. Not exactly controlling it, but not exactly being a puppet either.

That sounds elusive and hard to obtain. May the Force be with us. 😀


Dave2112 said:
That's the enigma and the paradox I was talking about...control without possesion and service without servitude.

Now that rings a bell!


Dave2112 said:
I see the New Jedi Order as the first step in bringing about an order along the lines of the Jedi of old, in harmony with life, the Force, the Potentium and everything.

I think the NJO has a hell of a better chance of doing it than the old onw died. For some reason the old one seems biggoted and full of it's own piss and self-importance to me. The NJO is far from all-wise and powerful, but it's foundation as a praxeum seems so much more solid, because Luke was admitting that he didn't know it all and needed the help of his students to forge the way ahead. The ass-whooping they handed out to the spectre of Exar Kun was a perfect example of teamwork as each student put their strong points to the fore and had friends shore up their weak areas.

Eerie note: After my thread on religious symbolism and saying how the 12 disciples were split into four groups of three around Christ in the Last Supper was meant to illustrate the sun surrounded by the 12 signs of the zodiac, diving the year into four seasons of three months; isn't it strange that the original group of Jedi students at the Academy were numbered 12, with Luke at their centre? (Luke of course being the son of the man born by immaculate conception; Anakin.) Even more eerie when you consider that one of the 12 left the group as an outcast and was replaced by another, EXACTLY as is told of Judas Escariot. (Kyp Durron.)
Was Kevin J. Anderson having a vision, or what? 😱 😱 😱


Dave2112 said:
Oh, and one more thing, Jim. Many seem to think of the Purge as Palpatine and Vader single-handedly hunting down and exterminating 10,000 Jedi. By the time the dust settled on the Clone Wars, there were very few left to hunt down. Palpatine used the Clone Wars as his extermination tool. Yes, the Wars were a contrived tool to place himself in absolute power, but more than that, they were the only way to remove the only thing standing in his way...the Jedi. Even he couldn't do it mano-a-mano with all of them.

Oh I totally agree with you. That's why I said they exterminated the Jedi through "cunning and deceit". Also good to show that a ray of pure light growing in the heart of a Padawan who'd done barely 3 or 4 months solid training in a total of 4 years, could exterminate the enitre Sith order and bring the Empire crumbling down in ruins in the space of a quarter of an hour. That Luke dude is pure bad-ass innie? 😱


Dave2112 said:
The Jedi's role in the war against the Yuuzhan Vong is much, much different. It's more along the lines of a jihad. Jedi can partake in physical combat without risking the dark side, and I'm not just talking about self-defense or defense of others alone. I'm talking about pre-emptive action. But the way the Clone Wars unfolded was against what the Jedi should have stood for. Once you read NJO, you'll see the difference.

I havn't even progressed beyond the Academy trilogy yet. Was a bit miffed the way that Luke said the students werew ready to go out into the galaxy as Jedi when none of them except the late Gantoris had built a lightsabre yet. (And him only with Exar Kun's help.) It was definately an improvement on the thrawn Trilogy though. there seemed to be less need to bolster it's existence by contantly referring to the movies as if to remind the reader that this was STAR WARS yanno! You should be reading this because it's from those movies everyone loved!!! If I had a penny for every time someone referred to using the force as being "a hokey old religion" I'd be frigging richer than Hugh Heffner! (Alright so Kyp Durron said the same words as he and Han escaped from the Kessel spice mines, but that was the only time in the whole trilogy.)

Can't wait to progress to some of the other books now. I think I'll go for Truce At Bakura next though. (Coincidentally, Bakura is the place where I'm stuck in the Jedi Academy PC game.)
 
Dave2112 said:
Many seem to think of the Purge as Palpatine and Vader single-handedly hunting down and exterminating 10,000 Jedi. By the time the dust settled on the Clone Wars, there were very few left to hunt down. Palpatine used the Clone Wars as his extermination tool. Yes, the Wars were a contrived tool to place himself in absolute power, but more than that, they were the only way to remove the only thing standing in his way...the Jedi. Even he couldn't do it mano-a-mano with all of them.

True, and even with the dust settled, Palpatine and Vader had plenty of Darksider backup in finishing off the stragglers. As I pointed out in A Potted History of the Sith Heirarchy, the Emperor had scores of Dark Side Adepts and Acolytes at his command, if not actual Sith trainees. The Prophets of the Dark Side, the Imperial Inquisitors, and the Emperor's Hands no doubt slew many Jedi without requiring Palpatine to leave his comfy chair.

It is also important to remember that not all Jedi were killed in the Purge. In addition to the obvious survivors of Ben Kenobi and Yoda, the novels/comics/games mention Vima-da-Boda, Empatajayos Brand, Master Qu Rahn, Corwin Shelvay, Don-Wan Kihotay (though his inclusion, let alone status as a faded Jedi, is questionable), and others as having lived into at least the Rebellion Era if not later. Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn are the scions of Jedi bloodlines that stayed hidden through the Purge. The very option of playing Jedi characters in the Star Wars RPG (Both the West End Games and the Wizards of the Coast versions) imply that the Galaxy is practically littered with scores of masterless Padawans, failed Jedi, and students of non-Jedi Force techniques (such as the Followers of the Tyia, the Ysanna of Ossus, and the Witches of Dathomir) who lived only because they were deemed too inconsequential to hunt down. They may number in the thousands (at best) to be sure, but in a Galaxy of hundreds of quadrillions of inhabitants they're hardly worth the Emperor losing sleep over their continued existence. Still, the fact that the Inquisition still pursued them proves that the Purge was never a single, finite event; but rather a continuing process that lasted even after the Emperor's death in some cases.

Further, it is important to recognize that some Jedi survived because they joined Palpatine. Asajj Ventress, High Inquisitor Tremayne, Jerec and his students, Kam Solusar, Adalric Brandl, Joruus C'Baoth and others all fell from the ranks of the Jedi, either willingly in pursuit of power, or tragically from beaten, broken minds and spirits. Most of these lived well into the New Republic era.
 
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Didn't Joruus C'aboth survive because he wasn't the real thing, but a clone and had been hidden away somewhere througout the civil war?

Nice to know where Rahn came from, I had been wondering. He was the guy Jerec killed in the opening scene of Dark Forces: Jedi Knight, yeah? The master whose archives were plundered by Kyle Katarn and eventually turned him into a full-blown Jedi?
 
MASSIVE UPDATE!!!

Having just completed the final book of the New Jedi Order series, things have been put into perspective. First off, if you thought Luke's shining example of purity in the Force was something, Jacen Solo wound up topping it a thousandfold. I don't want to give away too much of the end, but if you want to keep things pure, you may skip over the next part those of you who are reading NJO, as I will give away some of the secrets of the Yuuzhan Vong and Zonama Sekot. Jim, I doubt you'll care, as you're reading the books that you more or less know how they finish anyway.

Jacen becomes the one to finally confront the Supreme Overlord (the circumstances of which are a surprise in itself, so I can't give that one away). Suffice it to say that everything Jacen has been through comes full circle, his visions finally make sense to him and he gives himself completely over to the Force without question. Whereas Luke appeared to be shimmering in light through the Force to other Jedi, Jacen practically became light to those even outside of the Force. He achieved something no other Jedi ever had...becoming truly One with the Force while still alive in the physical world of the Living Force. He became, for lack of a better word, an avatar of the Force itself, a conduit that the Force flowed through, not from. After it was over, he knew he would never achieve that perfection again, but would probably spend the rest of his life trying. Not because he didn't have the ability, but because his achievement was due to what the Force wanted and needed of him at that particular moment.

On to Zonama Sekot. As noted before, the Yuuzhan Vong had taken Coruscant and "Vongformed" it into a representation of Yuuzhan'tar, their primordial homeworld. It failed. To make a very long story short, Sekot finally explains (after coming to realize), that it was formed from a "seed" of the original Yuuzhan'tar, which was itself a sentient planet in the Vong home galaxy. The Vong were once a part of the Force, but had used the knowledge of life to create the biots that slowly became weapons. The warrior caste grew out of the protector class, and eventually the Yuuzhan Vong turned to war, exterminating all other intelligent species in thier galaxy. Yuuzhan'tar, being a thousand times more powerful than young Zonama Sekot and being a "cradle" of the Force so to speak, had stripped the Yuuzhan Vong of the Force, sending them on thier quest for a new home. They'd destryoed everything. The gods grew out of their inability to grasp the concept of the Force in later generations.

At the end, Luke gathers the Jedi together and launches into a long speech about the future of the Force, and he hit on many things you brought up. The Old Jedi were too centered around structure and rank (even Jacen wondered earlier why Padawans were considered less than Knights and Knights less than Masters when Padawans had proven thier strength in the past). Luke also realized that the concept of light and dark went even a step further. Light and dark do exist in the Force, but they do not stand at opposite poles...they are intertwined. It is not aggressive action itself that causes darkness, but evading the will of the Force, which is itself only a facet of a finely cut gem. The Jedi decide that they no longer need to be the police force of the galaxy. They will still have members on the new Advisory Council, but in the capacity of representing the will of the Force. They will protect peace and justice, but where that justice is decided by political bodies, they reserve the right to supercede them.

Many Jedi go thier own way to find what the Force wants of them. Luke will still teach what he can to those who wish, but has abondoned the responsibility of "leading" the Jedi Order. It doesn't need to be led. The Force can do that. What they learned from the Yuuzhan Vong is that even those using the Force can lose it if they turn to dominance and selfish pursuits. There is still a lot to learn, but the Jedi of old, in a way, have finally returned and the Force is in balance.

One other thing, Jim. Your comparison of Kyp Durron to Judas Iscariot isn't exactly accurate. Judas was condemned and died for his treachery, Kyp was redeemed and became one of the shining lights of the Jedi Order.

If you (or anyone else reading this) wants to read the NJO without going through all 19 books, you can just read the hardcovers. They were designed to be the main points of the story, the important stuff. While the series in between them aren't irrelevent by any means and really fill out the saga, anything vital in them is covered in one way or another by the five main novels: Vector Prime, Balance Point, Star by Star, Destiny's Way and The Unifying Force.

- CRK 😎
 
Yeah that's true, Kyp does live where JI hanged himself. I did know that, but thought the circumstances were pretty close to each other anyway. 🙂
 
BigJim said:
Didn't Joruus C'aboth survive because he wasn't the real thing, but a clone and had been hidden away somewhere througout the civil war?

Nice to know where Rahn came from, I had been wondering. He was the guy Jerec killed in the opening scene of Dark Forces: Jedi Knight, yeah? The master whose archives were plundered by Kyle Katarn and eventually turned him into a full-blown Jedi?

True, Joruus is a clone of the original Jorus, but he does reinforce my point that some Jedi survived by siding with Palpatine, since he mentions hazy memories of vowing to serve the Dark Jedi (Palpatine/Sidious) who had defeated him years ago and being made guardian of the Mount Tantis facility in return for that oath of fealty, clone or otherwise.

And you are correct, Qu Rahn is the Jedi slain by Jerec in the beginning of Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight.
 
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