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The Porn Myth

MrPartickler

1st Level Red Feather
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Has anyone read this (or another, similar) write-up by Naomi Wolf?

http://nymetro.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

It's a brief article that basically states her opinion that our (i.e., men's) liberal access to so much pornography dilutes the eroticism of actual relationships. In other words, women know they cannot compete with the fantasy of "perfect 10s" who'll do and say anything men want them to, and guys (even if only on a subconscious level) find real women never measure up to the images they're bombarded with. The idea is that this <i>used</i> to be different, when access to pornography was much more limited.

(For those taking issues with the term pornography, just substitute tickling photos, clips, stories, etc. found here.)

I have to say, I have mixed feelings about it myself. I think she makes some valid points. Still, I think this article is tinged with some familiar-sounding insecurities. As if to say: "I probably wouldn't be writing this if all guys still though I was a major hottie." lol (And yes, I know she'd disapprove of that last comment, as she's a very outspoken feminist. 😛 )

Anyway, I won't spill all my opinions here yet until a few others have chimed in.
 
Ms. Wolf needs to come and take a stroll around good old Arizona State University. A SIGNIFICANT percentage of our female population is "porn quality..." Complete with the requisite surgical enhancements, "come hither" attitudes and (yuck) caked-on makeup.

Spend enough time around here, and you'll quickly come to the realization that "hot" does not automatically equate to "attractive."



MrPartickler said:
Still, I think this article is tinged with some familiar-sounding insecurities. As if to say: "I probably wouldn't be writing this if all guys still though I was a major hottie."


LOL! I think you summed it up nicely. 😛
 
She DOES have some very valid points in terms of mens expectations and objects of fantasy. But I would say that society itself is much more at blame than the porn industry. Limiting a mans access to porn will in no way make the problem go away.


Mimi
 
I actually find the a-typical porn star-ess to be quite revolting. From their pouting lips to their revolting boulders that are supposed to be breasts to their makeup that makes them look as if they've stuck their head in a cake-mix.

If a woman has big breasts, yes they look nice, but someone born smaller only makes themselves look like an Uruk Hai from LOTR when they have surgury. I need only cite the example of British glamour model Katie Price a.k.a. Jordan to prove my point.

When going for tickling models in my favourite videos I prefer normal "girl next door" types to the super-model/porn star.
 
Pff, there I enjoy porn as much as the next guy, but it's not all that. The girls tend to be plastic, porn DOES get boring, and it can get boring VERY quickly because it all boils down to the same thing really.

BTW WTF is going on with people spitting in each other's mouthes? Is that supposed to be erotic? It's revolting yet I see it happen. Oh and those facials shots are meaningless to me, I don't see the point.
 
It seems all of this is but a part of the greater ills affecting our society, this trend towards isolating ourselves from our families, and the outside world...mostly from other human beings. It's easier to deal with pre-fabricated people.

This woman's thesis just might have merit.
 
I like to give men a little more credit than that.

however… a man who is obsessed with porn (i.e. the ideals set for by porn) may fit that scenario. there are men (and women) who become so obsessed by fantasy, that reality holds no real appeal.

I don’t think it’s a man/porn thing tho… I think it’s a people thing.
 
Christy Canyon Isn'T Fake..

In fact she's a gorgeous, curvy natural woman.

AS for myself I'm not a big watcher of porn. The closest I usually get is a tickling flick.

It's not the porn industry that's causing poor treatment of women anymore than video games cause a kid to get violent.


It's poor parenting plain and simple. If your parents teach you to respect women and they don't tolerate the slightest disrespect towards them you'll respect and honor women the rest of your life. My parents, and late sister did that and for the most part, as rude as I will be to a male I'll rarely be rude to a female unless they've really really derseved it. Then I still feel ill for hours afterwards.

In todays society, encouragted by Democrats we try to blame others for our problems. Take responsibility for yourself, and your family, teach them to be accountable for their actions, while setting and example by being accountable for yours, and everyone will come out ok.

Tron
 
Wrong..

chrisheaven said:
I find myself in total agreement with Mimi
( I'm worried!!!)

Society isn't to blame. Individuals are to blame. Society doesn't cause anyoned to do anything, it's mindless. The individual can think and and having the ability to do so are obligated to make correct choices.

Tron
 
Re: Christy Canyon Isn'T Fake..

Neutron said:
In todays society, encouragted by Democrats we try to blame others for our problems. Take responsibility for yourself, and your family, teach them to be accountable for their actions, while setting and example by being accountable for yours, and everyone will come out ok.

Tron

That and voting Republican. 😀
 
i'll add some more opinions on this...

The issue with distinguishing between fantasy and reality is not black and white. This article is interesting in that it can make you wonder just at what point your fantasies and expectations do become unrealistic. When are you asking too much of your partner(s) and what gave you the idea to ask for it in the first place?

Here's an example more of us--of either gender--may be able to relate to...

Let's say you started your relationship with someone at a time when you <i>both</i> knew nothing of tickling (at least not on any serious level as we discuss on the TMF). Maybe you'd never really discovered your fetish. Or maybe, you had never really been tickled or exposed to much tickling at all in your life before. Then, one day you come accross some tickling vid clips or erotic stories or pictures on the web. After that "clicks" in your brain, you may begin to feel the need to bring your partner into it. If your partner is into it, great. If not, you may find you're suddenly no longer content with your relationship. The solution? You look for <i>more</i> satisfaction from the sole source that offers it willingly: adult entertainment, pornography, etc. This, in turn, is only likely to ultimately make you even less satisfied with the reality you live.

I'm sure there are more subtle examples than this (e.g., perhaps your partner will indulge you only a little, but not to the extent you now require), but this one is not far fetched at all. Perhaps the mere exposure to "adult material" can be, in a way, a contributor to unrest in a real relationship.
 
She DOES have some very valid points in terms of mens expectations and objects of fantasy. But I would say that society itself is much more at blame than the porn industry. Limiting a mans access to porn will in no way make the problem go away.


Mimi

Not to mention that by limiting my access to adult vid would probably limit you access to adult vids 🙂. If you don't like it don't watch it. Besides if anybody in the adult entertaiment indastry is treated poorly it's the men. Get hard, lay there, and here is 25% of what the women make... if your lucky.
 
It's a brief article that basically states her opinion that our (i.e., men's) liberal access to so much pornography dilutes the eroticism of actual relationships. In other words, women know they cannot compete with the fantasy of "perfect 10s" who'll do and say anything men want them to, and guys (even if only on a subconscious level) find real women never measure up to the images they're bombarded with. The idea is that this <i>used</i> to be different, when access to pornography was much more limited.

My suspicion is that it isn't porn specifically, but media images in general, that are producing this sort of dissatisfaction. There is experimental evidence that men exposed to large doses of the airbrushed perfect faces and bodies of the sort you'd see in Cosmo later feel less satisfied with their own partner's physical appearance (at least in the short term). Women exposed to such photos experience lower self-esteem (again, at least in the short term).

Thus, I don't think access to pornography is going to make so much of a difference, as long as advertising is saturated with perfect-looking people.

The issue with distinguishing between fantasy and reality is not black and white. This article is interesting in that it can make you wonder just at what point your fantasies and expectations do become unrealistic. When are you asking too much of your partner(s) and what gave you the idea to ask for it in the first place?

I think we do, as a culture, have higher expectations for our relationships now than we used to. A hundred years ago, when asked in a survey to agree or disagree with the statement, "I deserve to be happy in my life," only a minority of Americans agreed. Now, of course, nearly everyone believes they deserve to be happy. Add that to the fact that sites like this one now give us an idea of what possibilities exist, that older generations may never even have thought of, and you've got a lot of people with very high expectations of what they want in their relationships.

Here's an example more of us--of either gender--may be able to relate to...

Perhaps the mere exposure to "adult material" can be, in a way, a contributor to unrest in a real relationship.

By teaching you that you need this thing (say, tickling), that you might never have thought about otherwise? Yeah, that does seem valid. I'll have to think some more about how I feel about that. People who succeed in integrating these desires into their relationships can achieve a level of happiness they otherwise may have missed out on. But on the other hand, there are a bunch of people who are unfulfilled because they can't get this thing that the TMF (or whatever) has shown them they really desire. That's a dilemma... :idunno:
 
As a porn addict (seriously) I feel I have the qualifications to add some perspective on the matter.

The porn question has usually been a chicken/egg situation: can you not get lid because you watch porn or do you watch porn because you can't get laid? In my case, it was the latter. Around the time I started buying it, my complete invisibility to girls caused me to decide "if I can't have the real thing, I may as well get the next best thing" and thus my addiction was born. And I have no intention of fixing it. I have an addictive personality and given the number of things to which I could be addicted, I find porn to be the safest. Porn won't cause kidney or renal failure, liver cirrhosis, or get my legs broken by Russian mobsters.

Some of Wolf's points have merit, but then towards the end, her arguments veer into dangerous territory not because of it's seemingly un-feminist views, but rather for what it implicitly suggests about human nature.

Porn gives you variety and experimentation; things that are not only looked down upon in relationships, but sometimes quashed entirely. Some people look at standup comedy that talks about relationships as humor, but I see it as commentary on serious problems in the way humans interrelate. We don't have boring libidos--we're very flexible--but we do have stingent contexts where libidos are allowed to roam. Aside from role-playing, people don;t get to tool around much with different things, and even then, role-playing is restricted in how much creativity can go into it. Most people never get to find out what they want or like, much less cultivate those tastes, and even when they do, they often deny it if they think they shouldn't want it. Good luck getting in the practice either: you need the pretense of a relationship just to get a partner to experiment with.

Try saying "I'm bored" in a relationship and see what happens. This brings me to the second allure of porn: Escape.

Escape from what? What else? DRAMA. Oh, drama fucking SUCKS, we say so every day. Girls in porn never get paranoid, analyze the time delay between e-mails, go poking around in your belongings while demanding privacy for themselves, or concoct unbelievable intepretations of what a candy wrapper on the floor means about your feelings for her. Girls in porn like sex as much as men do, and they respond to stimulation very easily. For women, this may seem like the over-sexualization of women, but for men it's making a more sexually relatable woman who doesn't take as much work to please. We like porn because we can get a woman who is both visually and personally appealing who is as easy to please as we are and doesn't want to argue. All the benefits, none of the stress.

And don't blame porn for drama. It was there long before the invention of the daguerrotype. Men and women have always had their similarities and differences, but THEY ARE NEVER ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT IT! Nowhere in any magazine or article have I ever seen it mentioned that women and men never take the time to learn the other's language or lexicon. And even if one makes the effort, it's still gender-biased. Men are supposed to do all the legwork to learning how to appreciate a woman's emotional needs, but women are never encouraged to learn the language of sexual expression. For all of it's progressive thinking, feminism is still tied to the chivalrous perception that women are special, pure, and naturally good unless corrupted by an outside influence. It would be like admitting they were as much to blame as men. Try saying that at an N.O.W. conference without getting castrated.

I can't tell you how many arguments and asinine conversations I've seen couples have where I just wanted to slap the fuck out of both of them because they kept skirting the core of the argument with segues about implied subtext in comments and actions. I have Asperger's and even I couldn't believe that rational beings would engage in such insipid dialogue! And these things happen so much that standup comedians make a fortune telling jokes about these things without realizing how terrifying it is that these behaviors are so widespread.

But there's a telling validation to her concern...

or is it the case that the relationship between the multi-billion-dollar porn industry, compulsiveness, and sexual appetite has become like the relationship between agribusiness, processed foods, supersize portions, and obesity? If your appetite is stimulated and fed by poor-quality material, it takes more junk to fill you up.

Porn's acceptance of technology as a means of distribution is probably what gets it blamed for the effects of the digital age. We've seen that technology is affecting our social skills by allowing us to maximize communication and minimizing the effort. But the old-fashioned way was loaded with bias and baggage and anxiety-causing presumptions. Most of the push to modernize socialization came from the asphixiating protocols they had in place that I think often pushed people into psychotic romantic notions about love and hasty marriages.

In a way, porn is truly indicative of the modern age: compartmentalization. In a world where everything is scheduled and micromanaged, sexuality has been similarly boxed in. Sexual gratification is treated like a lunch break or a pilates class...open a slot for it, get your fix, then move on to the next thing. Busy, busy, busy, gotta keep moving.

If you wanted to fix this, you'd have to change everything from the structure of the global economy to the Protestant Work Ethic that dominates Americna values. Until ruthless commercial pursuits become unprofitable, you're not likely to see these trends stop.

Here is where I think she goes into dangerous territory...

It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it

What is eros? The romantic, the erotic, all of these things, where do they come from? And how good were they to begin with? Modern cultures don't teach patience or conflict resolution, so people give up easier. But the old ways discouraged sexual exploration and curiosity. It's one thing to be sexually desensitized by internet porn...it's another thing to be so deliberately conditioned to sexual ignorance that you need a how-to manual on your honeymoon not even knowing if you're going to like it once you're done.

She mentioned her friend who converted to Orthodox Judaism, where modesty translated into percolating sexual tension that probably exploded in the bedroom. She also mentioned and lamented the loss of sexual "mystery":

“Why have sex right away?” a boy with tousled hair and Bambi eyes was explaining. “Things are always a little tense and uncomfortable when you just start seeing someone,” he said. “I prefer to have sex right away just to get it over with. You know it’s going to happen anyway, and it gets rid of the tension.”
“Isn’t the tension kind of fun?” I asked. “Doesn’t that also get rid of the mystery?”

This kind of makes sense from a woman's point of view. Female sexuality requires more time to reach arousal, so this "tension" she mentions is likely the build-up that precipitates excitement. But keep in mind, that it's sensitivity to this kind of "tension" that cause men to underperform or climax too quickly. By being desensitized to the minutiae, men are more likely to last longer. From here on in, the only real loss stemming from this one of pride: knowing that a man can get turned on by even the smallest part of your body, even your scent is probably a giant ego boost, and that is probably the core of every woman's desire.

To me this looks the same as starvation dieting: you deliberately refrain from eating until the hunger builds in you until you can't take it anymore and you gorge yourself on things that taste really really good. Yeah, deliberately cultivating sexual tension through deprivation just so you can get overexcited by little things.

Sounds a lot like another addiction to me, only this one is more like an addiction to power; the power to be adored and worshipped and sought after from any trivial part of your body, including scent. Only a woman could so monomaniacally desire to possess such reinforcement that every single part of her was beautiful.

Cultivating ignorance so that we can become excited by detail is an evasive act. It over-sensitizes us and distracts us from the real problem: baggage. What is the cause of female insecurity? What is the root of male insensitivity? I think it has less to do with porn and more to do with our ideas of what it is to be male, female, or human.

I think people always got bored in relationships; it's just that the old ways took longer for the boredom to come, and it was so subtle when it did, that people believe it's not there.
 
I agree with both Mimi and Lindy: the issue goes way beyond porn; porn is just an easy target. Porn is just one expression of an unhealthy social standard of beauty. After all porn just gives the customers what they want, it doesn't make them want it. At worst it might give them unrealistic ideas about how common porn starlets are. But I think any woman who dates a man that thickheaded needs to upgrade.

I wonder what Wolfe thinks about women who enjoy or even produce porn? Is it evil for them, too, or only for men?
 
Enjoying porn is not as good as enjoying the real thing, true. Altho, porn does not limit what one can watch. It satisfies the seeing and hearing, but it cannot do anything for the touch, smell, taste.

Women in porn are not prettier, it is just that a guy can seek out what he considers to be the "perfect woman" [whatever he thinks that is] and have a jack off to that.
In real life, the said guy will probably not have a chance with his ideal looking woman. [for any number of reasons]

So basically with porn, a guy enjoys less but then there is no real baggage. A few mouse clicks is a lot less work than dealing with a real-life woman's bullshit.

Guys, wouldn't it be great if they had porn that could actually satisfy all 5 senses? Even a little?

And ladies, this may seem harsh, but at least us guys are straightforward with our desires. Unlike women who say they want a "nice guy" but then date losers or assholes.

Hey I ain't gonna lie, most of the women I dated have looked like dogs. I figured it was that or nothing, cause I never had luck with too many hotties.
 
I can see her point, but at the same time I think it's flawed because a lot of porn models are despicably unattractive.
 
I can see her point, but at the same time I think it's flawed because a lot of porn models are despicably unattractive.

You've been watching the wrong videos. Are you telling me that you think Jesse Jane is unatractive. I mean I can understand if you find what they do to be personaly unapealing, but come on she is a cutie for sure. I think everybvody should own one piece of Adult Cinema. If it's hard core stuff, or soft core like Two Moon Junktion or something. I saw the movie porkies and I think there is some truth in the plot twist of the religois nuts having a secret stash of Blue Movies in the basement of the church. If it doesn't involve kids or animals, and all parties are willing I say whats the real harm. It's up to the people to controle themselves. If we get rid of porn whats next potatoe chips?
 
The porn question has usually been a chicken/egg situation: can you not get lid because you watch porn or do you watch porn because you can't get laid? In my case, it was the latter.

Okay, but... watching porn also isn't going to help you get laid in the future. Learning about sex from porn is a recipe for failure.

Girls in porn like sex as much as men do, and they respond to stimulation very easily. For women, this may seem like the over-sexualization of women, but for men it's making a more sexually relatable woman who doesn't take as much work to please.

Exactly. That's no good if you ever want to be happy with a real one.

Nowhere in any magazine or article have I ever seen it mentioned that women and men never take the time to learn the other's language or lexicon. And even if one makes the effort, it's still gender-biased. Men are supposed to do all the legwork to learning how to appreciate a woman's emotional needs, but women are never encouraged to learn the language of sexual expression.

Bull. Pick up any random women's magazine, and you're going to see at least one article about "How to Please Your Man In Bed," "His Secret Erogenous Zones," or "10 New Sex Positions to Try Tonight!" It's no longer acceptable for a woman to just "lie back and think of England" during sex. Woman are now supposed to pursue their own pleasure, and contribute actively to his. If you think the effort to bridge this gender gap is one-sided, it's only because you (like all human beings) find it easier to notice and remember the effort that you put in, while discounting the effort of anyone else.

Sounds a lot like another addiction to me, only this one is more like an addiction to power; the power to be adored and worshipped and sought after from any trivial part of your body, including scent. Only a woman could so monomaniacally desire to possess such reinforcement that every single part of her was beautiful.

I think you exaggerate (pent-up resentment, much? 😉 ). But a woman does want a man who is sexually interested in her. If the only thing than can turn him on is porn, that's going to be unsatisfying. Wouldn't you agree?
 
Wow. This thread is almost three years old. I had to re-read my own words to figure out wtf I was smoking...er...thinking when I wrote it. lol That being said, I agree with MrPartickler. 😀

Seriously, I think exposure to new things always changes our expectations in some way. And it extends way beyond looks. It's not just perfect faces and bodies that we covet, it's perfect lives: great romance, great jobs, homes, cars, adventure, excitement, etc. I think men and women generally take what's average for granted and are drawn to the extraordinary. In many cases, it's unrealistic to expect all of those things can come a reality for us; however, we know that with some effort some of them can to an extent be realized.

Granted, we don't often know which things those are until after we actually pursue and/or experience them for a time. And we may pass up or neglect good opportunities while holding out for better ones. Ultimately, I think we all either get what we really think we want or just eventually modify our expectations. I guess it really depends on the person whether either of those ends leaves us content.
 
Okay, but... watching porn also isn't going to help you get laid in the future. Learning about sex from porn is a recipe for failure.
LindyHopper

Now we come to the Catch-22 of the situation. You can't learn in the real world without practice, and you can't practice unless you know what it is you seek to learn. Otherwise, women, even teenage girls, don't want to be with a guy who doesn't know what he's doing. And what kind of girl wants to be the experiment? You have to create the premise of starting a relationship, and when that fails--on account of you not knowing what to do--word of mouth spreads and there goes your chance of trying again.

Exactly. That's no good if you ever want to be happy with a real one.

The reason we like porn girls to be easy to get off is on account of how fucking TRYING it is to get a woman off in real life. It's one thing to watch Nina Hartley's educational videos, but you can't learn to plow by reading books and you can't learn how to fuck watching videos, you need a real person. But the female arousal and orgasm response is SO COMPLETELY FUCKING DIFFERENT than ours that we can put all of our effort and barely make a dent. It's just frustrating because we can't relate to it, and porn offers us the fantasy of a woman who cums just like us--if not better--and as frequently so we seem more compatible. Otherwise it's like trying to program a VCR in Japanese with a blindfold and an arm cast on.

Not that we don't to do right by women, but the work required to get started is almost like learning calculus. And the pressure to not look stupid or incompetent to the woman only adds to it.

Pick up any random women's magazine, and you're going to see at least one article about "How to Please Your Man In Bed," "His Secret Erogenous Zones," or "10 New Sex Positions to Try Tonight!" It's no longer acceptable for a woman to just "lie back and think of England" during sex. Woman are now supposed to pursue their own pleasure, and contribute actively to his. If you think the effort to bridge this gender gap is one-sided, it's only because you (like all human beings) find it easier to notice and remember the effort that you put in, while discounting the effort of anyone else

And a lot of these are crap articles. I've read a few of them, and they all have the same approach as one would take with a woman...the tease, the drawing out, the procedure. They treat men's sexuality as if it were a woman's: a diesel engine that has to warm up. And the agenda of those articles is to spice up the bedroom so your man stays interested in you or to cement the relationship. They don't encourage the beauty of the random wanton fucklust.

And what I meant when I said "women don't learn about men's sexuality" is that women don't learn how to factor in sexual interest and thoughts the same way men do.

I'm talking about dirty jokes, casual X-rated banter, seeing the beauty of random, non-romantic sexual thoughts and feelings. Responding and understanding sexual language of men the same way women expect men to learn to understand the emotional language of women. I surmise it's on account that women still see men's sexuality as base and grotesque and that sex in that context is degrading to women. All the sex women are encouraged to learn is simply a more aggressive variant of female sexual perspective.

But a woman does want a man who is sexually interested in her. If the only thing than can turn him on is porn, that's going to be unsatisfying. Wouldn't you agree?

For men, sexual interest is beneath basic; it rarely responds to the woman as a person until he gets to know her. Women are offended by this and think it's us deliberately trying to objectify them or completely ignoring their complexity. But it isn't; we're just defensive enough that we have to gradually integrate sex and appreciation together with a solid partner.

What I was commenting on wasn't a porn-as-turn-on, but rather the unaddressed issue of women and egomania. I read an article recently by a mother concerned about her daughter's interest in princess regalia; she found out--to her delight--that the daugher wasn't interested in being dependent on a man, but on reveling in the perks of being a princess: wealth, servants, prestige, and baubles. When Ms. Wolf commented on how the Jewish woman must have felt so hot and attractive because her sexuality was so concealed that the mere scent of her body could be arousing, it was indicative to me of the inherent megalomania women possess about wanting to be so desireable that they could command complete attention with the slightest gesture. And to extol the virtue of creating a society where sexuality is suppressed for the purpose of recreating that kind of environment everyday for every woman seems to me like the addiction to attention and power are sufficient cause for women to go back to modesty and all its risks for the sake of getting a powertrip.

I think contemporary views on a return to modesty are actually attempts to redirect attraction from visual--which is seen as male-related--to a more intricate and subtle form that appeals to women and make them feel empowered. They cant relate to the visual, so they try to convert everyone to the implied. The old idea that all male-related things are bad and demeaning still floats about, and I think a lot of old male habits like porn are an attempt to get the hell away from the burden of dealing with these issues.

After all, you can't win a fight with a woman because they often refuse to lose and they get all pissed off when they do, so it's just easier than dealing with the futile.
 
Now we come to the Catch-22 of the situation. You can't learn in the real world without practice, and you can't practice unless you know what it is you seek to learn. Otherwise, women, even teenage girls, don't want to be with a guy who doesn't know what he's doing. And what kind of girl wants to be the experiment? You have to create the premise of starting a relationship, and when that fails--on account of you not knowing what to do--word of mouth spreads and there goes your chance of trying again.
Have you considered just telling a partner that you haven't done this sort of thing very much? You might find that she's surprisingly willing to teach you. As a matter of fact the novelty of a man who admits that he has something to learn might just sell her all by itself. But if you really feel as though you need to learn first then a book such as The Joy of Sex will teach you far more than any porn flick. Not only is porn unrealistic, but the things that really make a difference don't show on video very well.

The reason we like porn girls to be easy to get off is on account of how fucking TRYING it is to get a woman off in real life...the female arousal and orgasm response is SO COMPLETELY FUCKING DIFFERENT than ours that we can put all of our effort and barely make a dent....Not that we don't to do right by women, but the work required to get started is almost like learning calculus.
Sorry, but I don't relate to this at all. Guy, if you're treating this like work then you're on the wrong track right from the get-go.

Yes, women work differently from men. But it's not all that different, really. If you just ignore the differences then yes, you're going to have trouble making a woman happy. But trust me - I've learned calculus and I've learned how to give a woman an orgasm, and there's no comparison. Calculus is hard. Making most women happy in bed just isn't.

More than that, sex is a hell of a lot more fun. Can you help me understand what part of getting a woman turned on feels like work to you?

And a lot of these are crap articles....They treat men's sexuality as if it were a woman's: a diesel engine that has to warm up. And the agenda of those articles is to spice up the bedroom so your man stays interested in you or to cement the relationship. They don't encourage the beauty of the random wanton fucklust.
I've not met many women who think that men need to warm up. In fact that's a big part of the problem, as far as they're concerned. What those articles are trying to teach is how to keep a man's sexual attention deficit disorder focused on her rather than on the next set of breasts that walks by.

If by "random wanton fucklust" you mean casual sex with random partners, then no, they don't encourage that. That's because that's not what most women want most of the time. On the other hand many women do want that some of the time. The thing is, that part really isn't hard enough to need articles written about it. Most teenagers master the whole random hormone thing early on, all by themselves. You need to shoot for doing sex and relationships better than a hormone-crazed high-school student.

Brother, the rest of your post is full of so much anger at women and so many misconceptions that I hardly know where to start. About the best I can say is that much of the time when you write "men want..." and "we want..." you need to go back and reframe that as what you want. As for this "female megalomania" thing, if you wouldn't like to be "so desirable that you could command complete attention with the slightest gesture" then I'm completely misreading your complaints about how much work it is to get and keep a woman's attention.

In all seriousness your first, best step might be to talk with someone to get these anger issues sorted out. As long as you're approaching sex as a load of tedious work that you have to slog through to finally get what you want, it's going to continue to frustrate you. Sex is like dancing, not like suffering through a dull job to get a paycheck.
 
Yeah that was kind of an angry one wasn't it?

I didn't intend to hijack the thread, so I'm hoping I can clear up what I tried to clear up in the last one so we can move on.

I think standup comedians are the philosophers of the 20th/21st Century. They comment on social behavior in a way in which the majority of the humor comes from the familiarity of the situations to the audience. Standup comedians often tell the same jokes from so many different angles and they still work because they are so prevalent that the audiences understand right away. And one of the bottomless sources for jokes is the conflict between men and women and the hypocrisy involved in gender relations.

Have you considered just telling a partner that you haven't done this sort of thing very much? You might find that she's surprisingly willing to teach you. As a matter of fact the novelty of a man who admits that he has something to learn might just sell her all by itself.
RedMage

One thing you hear CONSTANTLY is the bitching about men who don't know what they're doing. Maybe when I was a teenager I could get away with being clumsy, but since sexual relations in school are restricted to your place in the hierarchy, I and others like me didn't have and don't have access. On top of that, sex with teenagers is like negotiating weapons treaties with hostile countries: months of talks can be shot with one wrong move or word and then you have to start over again. When you reach adulthood, women are so sick of lousy lays that they dont have the patience or desire to teach someone what to do. Yes, everybody has to learn what a partner likes, but when you have to teach the basics, women are sick of it.

Sexual skills have to be learned, but you need practice to learn them. So women on one hand don't want to be sexual experiments and on the other somehow want men to know what to do when the time comes; then, they complain when they don't. How the hell do they expect us to learn these things?

Sorry, but I don't relate to this at all. Guy, if you're treating this like work then you're on the wrong track right from the get-go.

I really didn't word this one right. I meant to speak for men in general. Men IN GENERAL have a hard time relating to a woman's sexuality because it responds so differently than their own. Adam Corolla once had a great line: "The vagina is like a Rubik's Cube...men can't figure this thing out." And he meant by that how complex a woman's orgasm response is to the very crude and simple system men possess, and the frustration that can occur when trying to use your skills on a foreign system does not produce the desired results.

I don't think of pleasing women as work, but that's because I'm focused on doing the best job I can and getting the best results, so I'm in a totally different head-space than I am when I'm receiving. But other men might not have this switch-track ability and I was speaking for them, and how I can understand that if pleasing a woman takes a prohibitive amount of time and energy how a porn star who gets off on the slightest thing would be desireable.

If by "random wanton fucklust" you mean casual sex with random partners, then no, they don't encourage that.

Nonononononono. I meant random wantom fucklust in the sense of pointless, meaningless orgasm hunting. Even if a guy has a girl he loves and cherishes and cares for, he STILL gets an occasional out-of-the-blue libido jolt that says "NEED ORGASM. NOW." No explanation, no reason for being, it's just there, and usually can be gratified by a 1-2 minute quickie. A raw, primitive, animal NEED for an orgasm with a hair-trigger response. Women are VERY sexual creatures, but either they don't have or they suppress the more primitive, urgent properties of their libido because they find it too male or beneath them, and I find that offensive. It may be simple and minimalist, but there is a beauty in a fast, quick cum that women can't and don't seem to want to relate to.

Now for the rest of it...

Ray Romano told a joke once about his wife waking up from a dream in a very upset state because a woman was in her dream that he would have found attractive if he had seen her. "So now I have to apologize for what I did in her imagination." I thought this was a silly Romano moment. Then a few months later, I saw an episode of The L Word where Carmen woke up from a nightmare where Shane gave her old girlfriend a "partner" tattoo and left with her. She proceeded to wake up a very confused Shane and ask her how she could have done such a thing and then refused to speak to her for several episodes. It was Romano's joke in another medium; so maybe it wasn't as isolated as I thought.

Nobody would spend the $ it costs to write, produce, and shoot a scene that long to capitalize on a joke that nobody would get because it has no basis in reality. Unless it actually does happen, and in that case it indicates one of many potentially ludicrous emotional dysfunctions afflicting women that go unaddressed because of the defensive nature of modern feminism.

Bill Engvall also makes a fortune off of jokes that mine the treacherous depths of female insecurity and deception:

"And before we got started, she asked me 'is there anything different you want to try in bed tonight?' [shakes and trembles] OH GOD! WHAT IS THE RIGHT ANSWER?!! Because I KNOW...that the minute I suggest anything, she's gonna say 'WELL WHERE'D YOU LEARN THAT?!'"

If I hadn't heard the "what is the right answer" comment by a thousand other comedians before him, I would dismiss this as an isolated experience. But given the number of similar jokes, I doubt it is.

As for this "female megalomania" thing, if you wouldn't like to be "so desirable that you could command complete attention with the slightest gesture" then I'm completely misreading your complaints about how much work it is to get and keep a woman's attention.

If we saw a man with a sculpted body who kept showing it off for the purposes of drawing admiration from women for every single curve, bulge, and vein on every inch of himself, we'd label him an insecure prick who has to compensate by emphasizing as much of himself as he can; he literally works to make sure every peice of himself is alluring and desireable. So why can't we say the same thing for women who want to be so desireable that merely displaying her hair or a whiff of her scent can drive a man crazy? No, that same behavior is seen as validation of her true beauty and worth, not compensation for her lack of security or addiciton to worship.

I've tried to examine the misogyny of my comments and I think I've isolated the source. Because of the history of abuse women have endured throughout oh...FOREVER, contemporary reformers have tried to reverse it by making victimization as public as possible so we can see it's effects. My problem is that, while this has led to all sorts of critcism about male dysfunction--much of it well-deserved I might add--this movement has led people to overlook or ignore female dysfunction. The prevailing idea seems to be that belonging to an oppressed group of people renders you immune from bias or prejudice yourself, which simply isn't true. But efforts to point out the mistakes women make are perceived as misogynist, even if you defend women as equals.

In short, criticism is now perceived as prejudice. If you can find something negative about anybody, you're biased against them.

We talk endless oceans of shit about how men have damaged women and continue to instill harmful influences on them today. We know this. We're sorry. We WANT to fix it. But how much of the psychotic bullshit behavior women exhibit is NOT attributable to men? The kind of things comedians joke about that are actually reflective of deeper dysfunction that continues to be perpetuated and supported in women's magazines, TV shows, and political speeches? The paranoia, the duplicity, the suspicion, the anxiety, the double-edged sexuality, courting ritualism, and all the many thousands of others of disturbing and dysfunctional behaviors and associations that seem to afflict women today that nobody seems to do anything about because it's wrong to suggest that women have problems not related to men.

I am NOT a misogynist. I see women as equals. So I have VERY little patience with women who can't admit their own shortcomings and adopt a princess attitude. I'm very pissed off that men like myself can admit our failings and work at fixing them, but women in general tend to act like they have no faults or that fixing them is a betrayal of their gender.

I originally tried to say that the things women complain about in--and the symptoms Mrs. Wolf describes in her article about--porn stem from deeper issues that people seem to overlook because it's not considered proper to examine or is not perceived as a problem at all. I've tried to argue here that most of the things that are problems are things we see as normal and how the amount of complexity involved is unnecessary, burdensome, and actually contributing to the misery that people are attributing to porn and it's like.
 
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I don't find women complaining so much about men who don't know what they're doing. I think if you listen more closely you'll find that the complaints are usually about men who don't know what they're doing AND either don't know that or don't want to learn. The eager novice is still as much of a charge as he ever was.

Adam Corolla once had a great line: "The vagina is like a Rubik's Cube...men can't figure this thing out." And he meant by that how complex a woman's orgasm response is to the very crude and simple system men possess, and the frustration that can occur when trying to use your skills on a foreign system does not produce the desired results.
I never have understood why men think that a body that looks so different from theirs ought to work the same way. That's like trying to pedal a motorcycle just because it has the same number of wheels as a bicycle. If you treat a motorcycle like a bicycle then you're going to be frustrated. Still if you can accept that there are differences then your bicycle experience can be helpful.

Nonononononono. I meant random wantom fucklust in the sense of pointless, meaningless orgasm hunting. Even if a guy has a girl he loves and cherishes and cares for, he STILL gets an occasional out-of-the-blue libido jolt that says "NEED ORGASM. NOW." No explanation, no reason for being, it's just there, and usually can be gratified by a 1-2 minute quickie.
What makes you think women don't experience that? I can tell you they do.

Nobody would spend the $ it costs to write, produce, and shoot a scene that long to capitalize on a joke that nobody would get because it has no basis in reality. Unless it actually does happen, and in that case it indicates one of many potentially ludicrous emotional dysfunctions afflicting women that go unaddressed because of the defensive nature of modern feminism.
I hope that you wouldn't try to learn about Poland by listening to Pollack jokes. Comedy relies on exaggeration in most cases -- on situations that are "realistic" only if you suspend your disbelief. Ethnic comedy in particular relies on stereotypes that the audience believes to be true, but that doesn't mean that they are true. I'd suggest because of this that you limit the amount of life experience that you gain from stand-up comedy.

Women aren't "deceptive" - at least no more than men are. They just buy into the same mistake you make: expecting that men ought to work the same way they do and getting frustrated by the differences. That frustration is the basis of most male jokes about women, and of most female jokes about men.

Likewise, women aren't really all that much more insecure than men are. They're just insecure about things that men don't think are as important, and they express their feelings differently. They think most of our insecurities are just as irrational.

If we saw a man with a sculpted body who kept showing it off for the purposes of drawing admiration from women for every single curve, bulge, and vein on every inch of himself, we'd label him an insecure prick who has to compensate by emphasizing as much of himself as he can; he literally works to make sure every peice of himself is alluring and desireable. So why can't we say the same thing for women who want to be so desireable that merely displaying her hair or a whiff of her scent can drive a man crazy? No, that same behavior is seen as validation of her true beauty and worth, not compensation for her lack of security or addiciton to worship.
I'm not sure why you're comparing these two. If a woman makes a major production of showing off her body for the admiration of men, then she's usually considered vain and either stuck-up or somewhat trashy (depending on how well she pulls it off). On the other hand I don't know of any man who wouldn't like to be so desirable that he can get women to fall all over him with very little effort on his part. For both men and women, this sort of casual hotness is very much wanted. But the key is "casual." You aren't supposed to look like you're trying to be noticed, even (heck, especially) if you are.

Also, men have an option that women really don't: A man can make himself attractive by looking "handsome" in the classic sense, or by presenting himself as confident and/or successful. To a very large degree men are valued for what they do, while women are still mostly valued by how they look.

Because of the history of abuse women have endured throughout oh...FOREVER, contemporary reformers have tried to reverse it by making victimization as public as possible so we can see it's effects. My problem is that, while this has led to all sorts of critcism about male dysfunction--much of it well-deserved I might add--this movement has led people to overlook or ignore female dysfunction. The prevailing idea seems to be that belonging to an oppressed group of people renders you immune from bias or prejudice yourself, which simply isn't true. But efforts to point out the mistakes women make are perceived as misogynist, even if you defend women as equals.
Hmm, there's something to that, and many feminists are aware of it as well. Read Stiffed by Susan Faludi sometime. But you see I can recognize the truth in what you're saying here while still not getting angry about it in the way you seem to be.

I see in your writing a need to place blame for the way things are. Placing blame is usually at least somewhat one-sided, by its nature, so it slants the way you look at things. Even worse, fixing blame on other people then places the responsibility for the problem on them. Not only is real life more complex than that, but you'll nearly always get further by asking yourself what you can do to improve a given situation than you will by telling others what they can do and then waiting for them to do it.

Just to pull it back on-topic, you started off arguing that men turn to porn because women make it so difficult to deal with them sexually (because they aren't more like men). I haven't found this to be true, but in part that's because I haven't found it all that hard to learn about those differences and to enjoy them, rather than complaining about them.
 
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