The State of Professional Wrestling

[SonoftheDragon]

I'm SonoftheDragon, and the opinions I'm about to express are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of anyone else, but they might reflect yours.

I'm a fan of professional wrestling, and for the first time in my life, I'm actually ashamed to admit that in public. As far as I'm concerned, the state of professional wrestling in this day and age stinks. I'm not saying that one particular wrestler stinks or one promotion stinks; it's the whole slimy cauldron that's got me upset.

First and foremost, there doesn't seem to be any respect for the history of the business. When I run into wrestling fans, even those who are my age, and most of the ones I run into could be called kids, they don't know the first thing about the business. They know John Cena. They know CM Punk. They know Rey Mysterio Jr. I have nothing against those wrestlers, but try bringing up Lou Thesz or Harley Race or Bruiser Brody or the Midnight Express or any of a hundred names, and they'll just give you a blank stare, like they don't know what you're talking about, because they don't. It's a funny thing: modern baseball fans know the names Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Ted Williams. Modern football fans know Johnny Unitas and Marcus Allen. But don't expect that from a wrestling fan. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone among the casual fans (which is about 90-95%) who even know the current foreign talent. They couldn't name the Japanese, Mexican or Canadian promotions, let alone who the champions are.

But I guess it's asking too much for wrestling fans to respect the business when the people RUNNING the business don't respect it. They don't even use the word "wrestling." No, that's not marketable. That's not respectable. So they got rid of that and gave us "sports-entertainment," which is the whole problem right there. Instead of selling their product as hard-fought and sportsmanlike, even if it isn't, they feed us half-baked soap operas from writers who I wouldn't let write an instruction manual for a microwave oven. They give us hot-shot matches with no time to develop and cheap non-finishes. They pack their events with has-been and never-were celebrities who probably get paid more for one appearance than half the roster gets paid in six months. These people wouldn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch. And then they wonder why they media gives them no respect. It's embarrassing and insulting. And I think it's about time that the promoters woke up and realized that WRESTLING fans watching a WRESTLING program want to see WRESTLERS WRESTLE. That's as easy as it gets. It's not a difficult concept if you just think about it.

Speaking for myself, I'm sick of "sports-entertainment." I want wrestling. I want good, old-fashioned wrestling. I'm not saying we should go back to the days of monochrome wool tights and matches that consist of 20-minute headlocks. Even I'd have trouble sitting through that. But I'm sick of these matches where huge moves are performed one after the other with no visible resistance or aftereffect as if they didn't happen. Since no one feels the need to protect the business, no one feels the need to display any psychology. That's rotten and it shows no pride in their work. There's a reason why the Ric Flair-Ricky Steamboat series of matches is considered the greatest of all time: because they knew their craft and how to do it. They knew how to keep a match moving at brisk pace while making every move count.

Secondly, there's far too much emphasis on physique over ability, leading to this rush to employ cookie-cutter bodybuilders with two left feet and no psychology. These people are all show and no go. They didn't all used to be jacked-up musclemen. Dusty Rhodes was a big fat slob, by his own admission. And that was okay because he knew how to work a crowd. Moreover, he LOOKED like the people who watched wrestling. He had a common-man image that a lot of people could identify with. People could imagine being him and it gave them something to believe in.

But even worse is that the drive to promote overblown physiques has sent the business into a literal arms race. It's time to clean up the wrestling business by getting behind talented, charismatic wrestlers, even if they don't have Herculean bodies at the expense of the guys who flood their bodies with steroid until their hearts explode before they're 50-years-old. And breaks in the touring schedules would allow them to heal their bodies and spend quality time with their families, which would lead to a lot fewer ruined marriages, fewer fatherless children, and a lot less reliance on pain pills and alcohol to work through injuries and pain that would kill us normal people.

Well, I've still got respect for tradition. I've still got respect for the sport of wrestling. And if I was a betting man, I'd bet that a lot of other people do too, if they dig down real deep.

That's my opinion.

As a bonus feature, I'll give my thoughts on the Montreal Screwjob as well. In a little less than two weeks, it will have been exactly 17 years since Bret Hart was cheated out of WWE by Vince McMahon Jr. and Shawn Michaels. The Montreal Screwjob is wrestling's equivalent of the JFK assassination: everybody's got a different theory. The situation is not helped by that fact that everybody who was there tells the story a different way. Your only real hope is to go over each story and see which elements match up.

Even 17 years later, people still talk about Montreal. The debate over who was right and who was wrong will go one possibly for generations. Me, I'm taking a different tack. After 17 years of thinking about it--nearly half a lifetime for me--I've come to the conclusion that the Screwjob itself is almost incidental to the real issue. The real issue is that Vince McMahon, as head of WWE, never should have let things get so bad in the first place. He should have dropped the hammer on Shawn Michaels and his bullshit instead of letting him prod Bret Hart's bull to the boiling point. As far as that goes, no matter what the argument, no one can convince me that Vince didn't back the wrong horse. Shawn Michaels was a pillhead on a power trip while Bret could get at least a good match out of anyone and would have been just the right man to put over the rising talent even if it meant having to lose now and then.

Oh, and Shawn? In case you're reading this, I'm really happy that you're born again. I just wish you'd gotten it right the first time.

Bye-bye for now!

 

[Laugh]

Hi Dragon, good to hear from a wrestling fan! I can relate to what you say and even agree with most of it. Just my two cents, but I think a lot has to do with Hulk Hogan. Let's be honest, HH was and still is the biggest name ever in pro wrestling. Everyone wants to be the 'next Hulk Hogan', therefore they follow the mold of the big muscleman.

A problem I have is with the ending of the last PPV. I really didn't care who won the Rollins-Ambrose match, but that ending just outright stunk. The writers were so busy trying to tie in the next PPV they forgot to actually give a decent ending to this one. Also the WWE is so busy trying to promote the 9.99 their match quality suffers in the process.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

Hi Dragon, good to hear from a wrestling fan! I can relate to what you say and even agree with most of it. Just my two cents, but I think a lot has to do with Hulk Hogan. Let's be honest, HH was and still is the biggest name ever in pro wrestling. Everyone wants to be the 'next Hulk Hogan', therefore they follow the mold of the big muscleman.

I would agree. I love Hulk, but there's only one, and that's how it ought to be. Going back further than that. everyone wanted to be "Superstar" Billy Graham. In Japan, many want to be the new Antonio Inoki. That's no way to go about it.

A problem I have is with the ending of the last PPV. I really didn't care who won the Rollins-Ambrose match, but that ending just outright stunk. The writers were so busy trying to tie in the next PPV they forgot to actually give a decent ending to this one. Also the WWE is so busy trying to promote the 9.99 their match quality suffers in the process.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

I guess Vince McMahon figures it's more financially viable to have 50 million or 60 million people paying $9.99 a month than 2 or 3 million people paying $50 a month. Most of them don't, anyway.

Paul Heyman's made an attempt to re-introduce managers into the game, but look what he's stuck with: Brock Lesnar is a man-beast, but he's a part-time wrestler who has not earned his run on top like so many others have tried to do.

WWE Hall of Fame may be a cheap marketing ploy, but at least it's SOMETHING to remember what came before. Not enough by a damn sight.

 

[Laugh]

Paul Heyman's made an attempt to re-introduce managers into the game, but look what he's stuck with: Brock Lesnar is a man-beast, but he's a part-time wrestler who has not earned his run on top like so many others have tried to do.

WWE Hall of Fame may be a cheap marketing ploy, but at least it's SOMETHING to remember what came before. Not enough by a damn sight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think it's a joke to make Lesnar a 'beast'. He can no longer compete in UFC because of health issues. He's like a dog with all bark and little bite. I guess it's only fitting he's labeled 'champion' in a scripted universe. In a world where it was actually accomplished by what you could do and not what was written, he can't do it anymore.

As far as the wrestling side goes, I totally agree. He's not even a full-time wrestler. Say what you want about Cena, love him or hate him, he still gives it his all every week. That alone earns him far more respect for me than Lesnar.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

I've made my feelings clear on what should be done:

1) Breaks in the schedule

2) No-loophole drug testing and serious enforcement

3) Insurance, health and pension plans for life after the ring.

But what about in-ring action? Here's a thought: tournaments! I don't meant title tournaments so much. Tournaments for the sake of it. It can work, and it sells the product as sport. Over in Japan, New Japan Pro Wrestling holds several tournaments a year, with no titles at stake. For the heavyweights, there's the G1 Climax Tournament. For the cruiserweights, there's the Super Juniors Tournament. You wouldn't have to have it all done in one event. It USED to be, tournaments like that were held regularly here in America. Back in ye olden days of the 1980s, the NWA held something called the Crockett Cup, which was a tournament for tag teams. So don't tell me it can't work now. No phony angles, no soap opera bullshit. Just announce a tournament and let the wrestlers show who the best man is.

And bring back managers. We know that not every wrestler is a born promo artist. Give those guys someone to do the talking so they can focus. These things worked in the past. Don't tell me they can't work now.

 

[Laugh]

I absolutely couldn't agree more! Tournaments are a great idea and would be a good way to promote talent.

I also miss the days of managers as well as having masked wrestlers in America (not just Rey or Sincara).

 

[SonoftheDragon]

I absolutely couldn't agree more! Tournaments are a great idea and would be a good way to promote talent.

My ideal notion for bringing back old-style professional wrestling would be:

--Minimal outside angles (that is, nothing to do with wrestling) with more emphasis on in-ring action;

--Greater psychology and working of matches;

--Clean finishes across the board. Let me categorize that: in the course of a feud, "cheat" finishes can be used judiciously to further the feud, but the blow-off match MUST have a clear outcome;

--I'd bring back tag team wrestling. Nowadays, the promoters want to make every individual a star. Nothing wrong with that, but the last true tag team I can think of was America's Most Wanted, when James Storm and Chris Harris were partnered up

Those are just a few ideas.

WWE HAS some great talent. So does TNA, hard as that is to believe. So does Ring of Honor. But it's so hard for them to do any wrestling because of all the nonsense going on. It's time to go back to basics.

I also miss the days of managers as well as having masked wrestlers in America (not just Rey or Sin Cara).

I'm not saying that you can't have outlandish characters in wrestling. That's fine. But the problem now is that guys are not trained to work as themselves and THEN given the characters; they're trained to play characters. (Which is partly what did in Marc Mero's career.) Terry Funk had a saying, and so did Johnny Valentine: "Maybe I can't convince them that wrestling is real, but I can convince them that I'm real." And that about sums it up.

And to anyone who is reading this who thinks that these old-school ideas can't be successful now, I got just four words for you:

"Stone Cold" Steve Austin. Austin was the purest throwback to the old, NWA, Southern "wrasslin'" style as you could hope to see: unembellished character, plain black tights and boots, good physique but not superhuman, excellent psychology, phenomenal promo artist, right across the board. And he made MAD money. If you watch his match with Bret "Hitman" Hart at Wrestlemania 13, that's an old-fashioned NWA type match, and it shows why that style was so successful for so long.

Another bonus:

I promised myself I wouldn't do this, but I actually do have a list (MY OPINION!) of people who have done and are doing the most damage to professional wrestling as we know it:

--Vince Russo

--Ed Ferrara

--John Laurinaitis

--Kevin Dunn

--Mark Madden

--Dixie Carter

That's it for now. Although, there are two others who merit mention. One is Kevin Sullivan. Admittedly, he had a lot of great ideas, but he was just such an abusive, manipulative, mean-spirited, unprofessional asshole that it destroyed the confidence of those around him and hung around long after his creative fires had died down.

The other one is Jeff Jarrett, but my outlook on him has changed a bit. Frankly, I never liked the guy. He couldn't cut a promo, his "Otis-from-Mayberry" voice grated on my nerves, he only got ahead when he was friends/relatives with someone high up in whatever company he was in at the time, he disrespected guys who made more money than he would ever see in a lifetime, and of course, he created TNA as his personal vanity vehicle. For this, he SHOULD be condemned. That said, I cannot help but notice that the quality of TNA's in-ring product was a lot better with him in charge than it could ever be under Dixie Carter. It's not that Jarrett was all that great running TNA so much as Dixie is monumentally fucking up. I'm reminded of something Ole Anderson used to say: "[Insert name here], I used to think you were a dumb-fuck. But since then, so many other dumb-fucks have come down the line that you moved up without having to do anything."

 

[Strider]

Interesting thoughts all around.

I've actually begun following again after a multi-year break. I took the break because I simply got tired of seeing DX reunite for the umpteenth time or Undetaker vs. Kane part 3,712; which more or less sums up my opinions on what ails the business at this point.

I don't have the same sourness towards the soap-operatic aspects of the sport that are being expressed here; in fact, I think they're important. Gorgeous George was arguably the first true superstar in the industry because he brought an element of theatricality in. Abdullah the Butcher was portrayed as a sort of supervillain who lurked around the edges of the territory system; you never knew when or where he was going to pop up unexpectedly and cause mayhem.

None of this is to say you can't overdo it; David Arquette becoming WCW champion was enough to make me think the most ardent detractor of pro-wrestling had a point. Nonetheless, I think those aspects have always been part of the business, and I think to downplay them is to diminish what makes it so unique.

My problem is that things move too fast, there's no slow-burn feuds anymore, and it seems like everything has to be high-stakes at all times. Whether any of us like this or not, WWE is the Wal-Mart of the industry and pretty much sets the tone for how everyone else does business. They're committed to a business model based on pay-per-views every month. This moves things too damn quickly, and I think it detracts from the importance of things like championship matches. I would go back to having championship matches being a rare and major event, and I would really allow time for feuds to develop.

If you look at Snuka vs. Muraco, Hogan vs. Andre (yes, I'm aware that one didn't exactly produce a lot of 5-star ring work, but it's still probably the most famous feud in wrestling history), or Tommy Dreamer vs. Raven; one thing that stands out is that these went on for many months, if not years. They dug into the motivations of the individuals involved, and the eventual climaxes were that much more satisfying because of it.

I don't expect that's actually going to happen of course.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

Interesting thoughts all around.

I've actually begun following again after a multi-year break. I took the break because I simply got tired of seeing DX reunite for the umpteenth time or Undetaker vs. Kane part 3,712; which more or less sums up my opinions on what ails the business at this point.

I don't have the same sourness towards the soap-operatic aspects of the sport that are being expressed here; in fact, I think they're important. Gorgeous George was arguably the first true superstar in the industry because he brought an element of theatricality in. Abdullah the Butcher was portrayed as a sort of supervillain who lurked around the edges of the territory system; you never knew when or where he was going to pop up unexpectedly and cause mayhem.

None of this is to say you can't overdo it; David Arquette becoming WCW champion was enough to make me think the most ardent detractor of pro-wrestling had a point. Nonetheless, I think those aspects have always been part of the business, and I think to downplay them is to diminish what makes it so unique.

My problem is that things move too fast, there's no slow-burn feuds anymore, and it seems like everything has to be high-stakes at all times. Whether any of us like this or not, WWE is the Wal-Mart of the industry and pretty much sets the tone for how everyone else does business. They're committed to a business model based on pay-per-views every month. This moves things too damn quickly, and I think it detracts from the importance of things like championship matches. I would go back to having championship matches being a rare and major event, and I would really allow time for feuds to develop.

If you look at Snuka vs. Muraco, Hogan vs. Andre (yes, I'm aware that one didn't exactly produce a lot of 5-star ring work, but it's still probably the most famous feud in wrestling history), or Tommy Dreamer vs. Raven; one thing that stands out is that these went on for many months, if not years. They dug into the motivations of the individuals involved, and the eventual climaxes were that much more satisfying because of it.

I don't expect that's actually going to happen of course.

What we need is for someone with a lot of passion and a lot of money to show the big boys how it's done; to take things back to basics, as it were.

 

[Laugh]

I think a lot of wrestling lost it's punch when the title belt started becoming a prop for angles and storylines, instead of a symbol of respect and appreciation for hard work in the industry. I remember the days when saying Ric Flair was a "7 time world champion" meant something in the industry. These days if you don't have over 10 you are considered mid card caliber. Ridiculous.

 

[wolfman40]

I've not watched in ages, however the recent return of Sting has certainly piqued my interest!

 

[wolfman40]

Only seen the results of Mania this morning, so won't spoil, but one of them was surely a bit of a surprise?

 

[SonoftheDragon]

Only seen the results of Mania this morning, so won't spoil, but one of them was surely a bit of a surprise?

Not necessarily a good one, wolfman28. Allow me to explain.

The more time goes by, the more I realize that I am no longer the target demographic. Indeed, I'm at the point now where I can join Jim Cornette, Ole Anderson, Bill Watts, and any number of other names in the camp of old-timers longing for the good old days.

I think a lot of it can be blamed on the transition from owner-operated to corporate-owned. Specifically, the change from booking to writing. The old bookers knew (mostly) how to put the right elements together. Now, it's all "sanitized for your protection." Instead of letting the wrestlers use what creativity they have and letting them grow as talent, they're fed lines and given scripts. Talking points is one thing, but when you force these guys to repeat lines, it takes all the life and feeling out of it. Worse, you know they don't believe it.

And let us not forget all the talent who have been "future endeavored" just because "the writers have nothing for you." Well, the easy solution to that is FIRE THE FUCKIN' WRITERS!

All of this comes down to one thing: the ever-increasing diminishing of actual in-ring content. It's almost an afterthought. Vince Russo, Ed Ferrara and Kevin Nash are the worst offenders in this regard, but they're dragging the whole thing with them. Let's take this year's Wrestlemania, just as an example.

Number one: except for Maria Menounos, who looked a lot skinnier than I'm comfortable with, and Arnold Schwarzenegger, who got a shameless plug for Terminator-I-Don't-Know-How-Many, I didn't recognize any of the "celebrities" involved. Maybe that says more about how out-of-touch I am, but at least they played a minimal role. And just to show that I'm fair, as much as I like the Oak Ridge Boys, I didn't cry over WWE removing them from showings of Wrestle War '89.

Number two: I really didn't have any problem with the pre-show matches, save one: Big Show's battle royal win. On the face of it, it made sense, but under closer scrutiny, having Big Show win was a step backwards. Reason being, and I mean no disrespect to the guy, he's just flat washed up. Ever since he found his way into WWE, they have failed to take the obvious route of making him a monster and have undercut him continuously. And then they act surprised when attempts to push him fall flat, especially when they try to make him a comedy figure. "Funny don't draw money" as Cornette often says. Giving him the win was too little, too late.

I won't say anymore on the chance that people reading this thread haven't seen it yet.

 

[wolfman40]

Being old and a fan of US wrestling since the 80's it was very interesting to see the recent interview vince did on stone cold's show, I caught it on youtube.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

Being old and a fan of US wrestling since the 80's it was very interesting to see the recent interview vince did on stone cold's show, I caught it on youtube.

Keeping with what I was saying earlier, surprises can be good, if done right. But sometimes, just taking the obvious route can be just as rewarding. Just because you know something is coming doesn't make it any less satisfying.

Onto business. Even with the problems I had with Wrestlemania 31, I can't judge it too harshly. Up until the twist ending, Lesnar vs Reigns was good, old-fashioned wrestling: just two guys telling a story, and what a story.

I didn't see the whole NWO vs DX thing coming during the Sting--HHH match coming, and it WAS pretty cool. Maybe it took away from the match itself, but it had spectacle. I wasn't upset over it.

 

[magic fingers]

SOD, I normally agree w/your posts, but I have to take issue w/this one. HBK by all accounts was a complete a-hole, and nobody liked him. I get that. However IMHO he was still a much better in-ring performer and athelete than Bret Hart ever was. HBK was a better high flyer and a very underrated ground technician. Bret as a performer by comparison was boring and predictable in the ring.

Shawn was consistenty adding more moves and wrestling holds to his reperetoire. He was incorporating new wrestling manuevers, and techniques well into his forties(like the moonsault, and the indian deathlock). Meanwhile, if you've seen one Bret Hart match you've seen them all. Every Hart match was pretty much the same. Not to mention that he came across as a sore loser and jealous crybaby after Shawn beat him the first time for the belt at Wrestlemania.

Now I don't doubt HBK was a punk, and Bret definitely got screwed in Montreal and deserved better. I also feel horrible for all the tragedy, and pain that Bret has had to endure over the years. And the fact that he forgave Shawn a couple years ago, shows me he's a man of great character and integrity. But strictly as a wrestler I was never all that impressed w/him. I actually thought his own brother the tragically late Owen Hart, was a better performer but never got the push he deserved.

Today I don't even watch the WWE. I'm strictly an ROH man. Watch this match and it might make you feel a little better about being a wrestling fan;

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+roh+bullet+club+vs.+ach+cedric+alexander+matt+sydal&FORM=VIRE3#view=detail&mid=55D2D03882A4DB1960EB55D2D03882A4DB1960EB

 

[magic fingers]

I've made my feelings clear on what should be done:

1) Breaks in the schedule

2) No-loophole drug testing and serious enforcement

3) Insurance, health and pension plans for life after the ring.

But what about in-ring action? Here's a thought: tournaments! I don't meant title tournaments so much. Tournaments for the sake of it. It can work, and it sells the product as sport. Over in Japan, New Japan Pro Wrestling holds several tournaments a year, with no titles at stake. For the heavyweights, there's the G1 Climax Tournament. For the cruiserweights, there's the Super Juniors Tournament. You wouldn't have to have it all done in one event. It USED to be, tournaments like that were held regularly here in America. Back in ye olden days of the 1980s, the NWA held something called the Crockett Cup, which was a tournament for tag teams. So don't tell me it can't work now. No phony angles, no soap opera bullshit. Just announce a tournament and let the wrestlers show who the best man is.

And bring back managers. We know that not every wrestler is a born promo artist. Give those guys someone to do the talking so they can focus. These things worked in the past. Don't tell me they can't work now.

Ah yes, I remember the Crockett Cup. They held the 1987 Cup in Baltimore, and I was there for both nights. It was incredible weekend topped off by an epic match between Barry Windham and Ric Flair. Crockett promotions loved Baltimore, and they held some of their biggest events there, even though the Baltimore Arena was (and still is) a dump! And SOD I agree the NWA in the mid-late 80's was bad-ass!! My favorite was the Midnight Express w/Jim Cornette(who was funny as hell on the mic).

But I also think there are a lot of positives in today's wrestling. Even the WWE is a lot better now than the cartoon show it was back in the 80's(w/no slow moving no talent clowns like Hillbilly Jim, Tugboat, Earthquake, etc.)

ROH does have matches, tournaments w/New Japan Pro Wrestling, which gives it an international flavor. In fact just this weekend Jay Lethal wrestled Jushin Thunder Liger! However ROH operates on such a shoestring budget, they can't afford to keep a lot of their top talent for more than a year or two.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

SOD, I normally agree w/your posts, but I have to take issue w/this one. HBK by all accounts was a complete a-hole, and nobody liked him. I get that. However IMHO he was still a much better in-ring performer and athelete than Bret Hart ever was. HBK was a better high flyer and a very underrated ground technician. Bret as a performer by comparison was boring and predictable in the ring.

Shawn was consistenty adding more moves and wrestling holds to his reperetoire. He was incorporating new wrestling manuevers, and techniques well into his forties(like the moonsault, and the indian deathlock). Meanwhile, if you've seen one Bret Hart match you've seen them all. Every Hart match was pretty much the same. Not to mention that he came across as a sore loser and jealous crybaby after Shawn beat him the first time for the belt at Wrestlemania.

Now I don't doubt HBK was a punk, and Bret definitely got screwed in Montreal and deserved better. I also feel horrible for all the tragedy, and pain that Bret has had to endure over the years. And the fact that he forgave Shawn a couple years ago, shows me he's a man of great character and integrity. But strictly as a wrestler I was never all that impressed w/him. I actually thought his own brother the tragically late Owen Hart, was a better performer but never got the push he deserved.

Today I don't even watch the WWE. I'm strictly an ROH man. Watch this match and it might make you feel a little better about being a wrestling fan;

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+roh+bullet+club+vs.+ach+cedric+alexander+matt+sydal&FORM=VIRE3#view=detail&mid=55D2D03882A4DB1960EB55D2D03882A4DB1960EB

You make a persuasive argument, magic fingers. Very persuasive. And I agree wholeheartedly (or is that whole Hartedly) with you assessment of Owen Hart. I always felt he was the best of the family, performance-wise. That being said, my argument was that, of the two, Bret would have been the smarter long-term investment, as his low-risk (to euphemize your description) style meant (on paper) a longer career, and his not being the immature, giant asshat HBK was (and maybe still is) meant greater willingness to put over other talent.

Lastly, my problem is not with wrestling. My problem is with "sports-entertainment."

 

[SonoftheDragon]

Ah yes, I remember the Crockett Cup. They held the 1987 Cup in Baltimore, and I was there for both nights. It was incredible weekend topped off by an epic match between Barry Windham and Ric Flair. Crockett promotions loved Baltimore, and they held some of their biggest events there, even though the Baltimore Arena was (and still is) a dump! And SOD I agree the NWA in the mid-late 80's was bad-ass!! My favorite was the Midnight Express w/Jim Cornette(who was funny as hell on the mic).

Oh, yeah! As you can tell, I'm a Jim Cornette guy. He and I are pretty much simpatico in our outlook on the wrestling business. And he's still funny as hell. Youtube him sometime.

For those reading this who are too young to have seen it, too old to remember, or just weren't into wrestling back then, NWA/JCP from roughly 1984 to 1990 was the place to go if you wanted an old-school, blood-and-guts alternative to the cartoonish WWE fare of the time. They had "Nature Boy" Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard, the Road Warriors, the Midnight Express, the Rock and Roll Express, the Fantastics, the Varsity Club, Barry Windham, Magnum TA, Great Muta, Terry Funk, Ricky "the Dragon" Steamboat, the Steiner Brothers, and so many others. For managers, they had Jim Cornette, "Number One" Paul Jones, Paul Heyman (back when he was Paul E Dangerously), Hiro Matsuda and so on. And they had the two best announcers past and present: Jim Ross and the late Gordon Solie. Solie, more than anyone else, sold the performances as gritty sport without needing to raise his distinctive voice, and sold the story of the match rather than pushing angles. When a wrestler "wore the crimson mask," you knew it was serious.

Indeed, JCP/first-year WCW's slogan was "We Wrestle." It was a thinly-veiled swipe at WWE, which did not allow blading, focused on outlandish characters with enhanced bodies and had Hogan posing for five minutes. Then corporate suits took over and decided that they'd "follow the leader." Meanwhile, the suits were so stupid, they couldn't have drawn a house if they'd HAD Hogan. Ugh.

But I also think there are a lot of positives in today's wrestling. Even the WWE is a lot better now than the cartoon show it was back in the 80's(w/no slow moving no talent clowns like Hillbilly Jim, Tugboat, Earthquake, etc.)

Like I said, WWE has some great wrestlers. Which is why it sucks they they're not allowed to wrestle. (Off-topic, John "Earthquake" Tenta was a heck of a guy, and could have been better than he was.)

ROH does have matches, tournaments w/New Japan Pro Wrestling, which gives it an international flavor. In fact just this weekend Jay Lethal wrestled Jushin Thunder Liger! However ROH operates on such a shoestring budget, they can't afford to keep a lot of their top talent for more than a year or two.

Even with Sinclair Broadcasting backing them?

Lethal vs Liger. Wish I could have seen that! Say what you want about WCW back in the day, but they weren't afraid to experiment with new concepts. They had working agreements with NJPW in Japan and AAA in Mexico. They kind of introduced those styles here.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

SOD, I normally agree w/your posts, but I have to take issue w/this one. HBK by all accounts was a complete a-hole, and nobody liked him. I get that. However IMHO he was still a much better in-ring performer and athelete than Bret Hart ever was. HBK was a better high flyer and a very underrated ground technician. Bret as a performer by comparison was boring and predictable in the ring.

Shawn was consistenty adding more moves and wrestling holds to his reperetoire. He was incorporating new wrestling manuevers, and techniques well into his forties(like the moonsault, and the indian deathlock). Meanwhile, if you've seen one Bret Hart match you've seen them all. Every Hart match was pretty much the same. Not to mention that he came across as a sore loser and jealous crybaby after Shawn beat him the first time for the belt at Wrestlemania.

Now I don't doubt HBK was a punk, and Bret definitely got screwed in Montreal and deserved better. I also feel horrible for all the tragedy, and pain that Bret has had to endure over the years. And the fact that he forgave Shawn a couple years ago, shows me he's a man of great character and integrity. But strictly as a wrestler I was never all that impressed w/him. I actually thought his own brother the tragically late Owen Hart, was a better performer but never got the push he deserved.

Today I don't even watch the WWE. I'm strictly an ROH man. Watch this match and it might make you feel a little better about being a wrestling fan;

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+roh+bullet+club+vs.+ach+cedric+alexander+matt+sydal&FORM=VIRE3#view=detail&mid=55D2D03882A4DB1960EB55D2D03882A4DB1960EB

As far as this goes, magic fingers, I can't say that I would have done any differently than Vince McMahon did in his position. Bret was leaving, Shawn was staying. It was that simple, regardless of how immature both guys were being. The point I was trying to make was that Vince should have put his foot down and not let it get that bad between the two of them. But because he's so hung up on HBK, he let him get away with tons of crazy shit.

Say what you want about Bill Watts: he kept discipline in his ranks, even if it was only to the point where the talent hated him more than they hated each other.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

Let me state a personal fact on this. I was weaned on both old-school Southern "wrasslin'" and "sports-entertainment." As one started to resemble the other, I stopped watching. I can safely say that from January 1994 to the summer of 1997, I watched no wrestling. Did not want to even know about it. So, when I got back in, it was like a world gone mad. Just to hit the list:

-Hulk Hogan was now a black-clad bad guy and hung around with Razor Ramon and Diesel

-Sting was now the Crow

-Perennial jobber Shane Douglas was champion of this ECW thing

-Dustin Rhodes was now a freak painted up like an Oscar statue who rubbed his ass on people

-"Stunning" Steve Austin was now a bald redneck who drank beer and said "ass" every other word

-"Flyin'" Brian Pillman was a wild-eyed maniac who pulled guns during interviews

-Ron Simmons headed up some pseudo-Black Panthers gang

-Cactus Jack was now a doofus in tye-dye who spouted hippie cliches

-The Road Warriors had reformed to put over a pair of adolescent mullet-heads

-Shawn Michaels' new friends were some dude with a big nose and a woman who looked like a man at first glance

-Johnny B Badd was now a boxer and hung around with this silicone-titted blonde

-Bret Hart was now a bad guy who trashed on America

-WCW had all of these masked Mexicans flying around the ring

-Undertaker was at war with Paul Bearer and some "Kane" guy was in the shadows

Did I miss anything? Needless to say, I had a LOT to catch up on. Looking back on it now, the sport had gotten away from me LESS in three+ years not watching it than in the last 18 years of watching it continuously. I look at it now and I think, "what the fuck?"

 

[SonoftheDragon]

Another piece of tradition has left and gone away. On June 11th, 2015, "The American Dream" Dusty Rhodes went on to that big stadium in the sky.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

I stopped watching for good around 2012. I felt that wrestling was terrible a few years before that. The main reason is the WWE. They don't want or have competition and as long as that's the case it won't get any better. Plus, it just seems too perfect. I liked the look of the attitude era when wrestling looked raw and gritty. It looks too much like a production today.

But I can get my fix by watching the good ol' stuff like I was doing earlier. I guess it was because I was young at the time but I really appreciate what Goldust brought to the game.

 

[gilmourwaters]

I'm SonoftheDragon, and the opinions I'm about to express are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of anyone else, but they might reflect yours.

I'm a fan of professional wrestling, and for the first time in my life, I'm actually ashamed to admit that in public. As far as I'm concerned, the state of professional wrestling in this day and age stinks. I'm not saying that one particular wrestler stinks or one promotion stinks; it's the whole slimy cauldron that's got me upset.

First and foremost, there doesn't seem to be any respect for the history of the business. When I run into wrestling fans, even those who are my age, and most of the ones I run into could be called kids, they don't know the first thing about the business. They know John Cena. They know CM Punk. They know Rey Mysterio Jr. I have nothing against those wrestlers, but try bringing up Lou Thesz or Harley Race or Bruiser Brody or the Midnight Express or any of a hundred names, and they'll just give you a blank stare, like they don't know what you're talking about, because they don't. It's a funny thing: modern baseball fans know the names Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron and Ted Williams. Modern football fans know Johnny Unitas and Marcus Allen. But don't expect that from a wrestling fan. In fact, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone among the casual fans (which is about 90-95%) who even know the current foreign talent. They couldn't name the Japanese, Mexican or Canadian promotions, let alone who the champions are.

But I guess it's asking too much for wrestling fans to respect the business when the people RUNNING the business don't respect it. They don't even use the word "wrestling." No, that's not marketable. That's not respectable. So they got rid of that and gave us "sports-entertainment," which is the whole problem right there. Instead of selling their product as hard-fought and sportsmanlike, even if it isn't, they feed us half-baked soap operas from writers who I wouldn't let write an instruction manual for a microwave oven. They give us hot-shot matches with no time to develop and cheap non-finishes. They pack their events with has-been and never-were celebrities who probably get paid more for one appearance than half the roster gets paid in six months. These people wouldn't know a wristlock from a wristwatch. And then they wonder why they media gives them no respect. It's embarrassing and insulting. And I think it's about time that the promoters woke up and realized that WRESTLING fans watching a WRESTLING program want to see WRESTLERS WRESTLE. That's as easy as it gets. It's not a difficult concept if you just think about it.

Speaking for myself, I'm sick of "sports-entertainment." I want wrestling. I want good, old-fashioned wrestling. I'm not saying we should go back to the days of monochrome wool tights and matches that consist of 20-minute headlocks. Even I'd have trouble sitting through that. But I'm sick of these matches where huge moves are performed one after the other with no visible resistance or aftereffect as if they didn't happen. Since no one feels the need to protect the business, no one feels the need to display any psychology. That's rotten and it shows no pride in their work. There's a reason why the Ric Flair-Ricky Steamboat series of matches is considered the greatest of all time: because they knew their craft and how to do it. They knew how to keep a match moving at brisk pace while making every move count.

Secondly, there's far too much emphasis on physique over ability, leading to this rush to employ cookie-cutter bodybuilders with two left feet and no psychology. These people are all show and no go. They didn't all used to be jacked-up musclemen. Dusty Rhodes was a big fat slob, by his own admission. And that was okay because he knew how to work a crowd. Moreover, he LOOKED like the people who watched wrestling. He had a common-man image that a lot of people could identify with. People could imagine being him and it gave them something to believe in.

But even worse is that the drive to promote overblown physiques has sent the business into a literal arms race. It's time to clean up the wrestling business by getting behind talented, charismatic wrestlers, even if they don't have Herculean bodies at the expense of the guys who flood their bodies with steroid until their hearts explode before they're 50-years-old. And breaks in the touring schedules would allow them to heal their bodies and spend quality time with their families, which would lead to a lot fewer ruined marriages, fewer fatherless children, and a lot less reliance on pain pills and alcohol to work through injuries and pain that would kill us normal people.

Well, I've still got respect for tradition. I've still got respect for the sport of wrestling. And if I was a betting man, I'd bet that a lot of other people do too, if they dig down real deep.

That's my opinion.

As a bonus feature, I'll give my thoughts on the Montreal Screwjob as well. In a little less than two weeks, it will have been exactly 17 years since Bret Hart was cheated out of WWE by Vince McMahon Jr. and Shawn Michaels. The Montreal Screwjob is wrestling's equivalent of the JFK assassination: everybody's got a different theory. The situation is not helped by that fact that everybody who was there tells the story a different way. Your only real hope is to go over each story and see which elements match up.

Even 17 years later, people still talk about Montreal. The debate over who was right and who was wrong will go one possibly for generations. Me, I'm taking a different tack. After 17 years of thinking about it--nearly half a lifetime for me--I've come to the conclusion that the Screwjob itself is almost incidental to the real issue. The real issue is that Vince McMahon, as head of WWE, never should have let things get so bad in the first place. He should have dropped the hammer on Shawn Michaels and his bullshit instead of letting him prod Bret Hart's bull to the boiling point. As far as that goes, no matter what the argument, no one can convince me that Vince didn't back the wrong horse. Shawn Michaels was a pillhead on a power trip while Bret could get at least a good match out of anyone and would have been just the right man to put over the rising talent even if it meant having to lose now and then.

Oh, and Shawn? In case you're reading this, I'm really happy that you're born again. I just wish you'd gotten it right the first time.

Bye-bye for now!

I agree 100%. I've been an avid fan and follower of professional wrestling since the territories days and the days where Bruno was champ. I've had the honor of meeting and speaking with all the greats from that era ( not sting yet but that time will come!) , and I can honestly say im absolutely disgusted with what the mcmahons have done with the product HIS FATHER started in the decade or so! SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT is not professional wrestling! He took the tradition of the womens division and turned it into a freak show so his core demographic ( early teens and younger) can have something to jerk off too rather then have god forbid women with actual wrestling ability. I have ZERO respect for that company know. What happened to the days of dusty Rhodes , ric flair , Harley race , Baron Von Rascke , Bruno Sammartino , Ricky Steamboat , The Von Erichs..I could go on and on.

 

[SonoftheDragon]

I agree 100%. I've been an avid fan and follower of professional wrestling since the territories days and the days where Bruno was champ. I've had the honor of meeting and speaking with all the greats from that era ( not sting yet but that time will come!) , and I can honestly say im absolutely disgusted with what the mcmahons have done with the product HIS FATHER started in the decade or so! SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT is not professional wrestling! He took the tradition of the womens division and turned it into a freak show so his core demographic ( early teens and younger) can have something to jerk off too rather then have god forbid women with actual wrestling ability. I have ZERO respect for that company know. What happened to the days of dusty Rhodes , ric flair , Harley race , Baron Von Rascke , Bruno Sammartino , Ricky Steamboat , The Von Erichs..I could go on and on.

You and I are speaking the same language. Vince McMahon's success cannot be argued, but he did it in a way that shot the entire business in the foot. When he finally let the cat out of the bag in 1989, a LOT of wrestlers and promoters were pissed off like you wouldn't believe, and with good reason. How were they supposed to sell it as sport after that?

And you just nailed it: sports-entertainment is NOT professional wrestling, because it's not supposed to be. Like I said, wrestling isn't marketable. Well, Vince, there's a reason UFC kicked you ass in PPV numbers!