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tickling is cruel?

MasterTT said:
Well this post has had me thinking for a little bit and so I decided to respond. I agree with you for the most part, but being a bit of a sadist (when it comes to tickling but also in the larger bdsm sense of the word) I can't agree with everything you said. I can not completely relate to what you are talking about because I have never really done any pay to play... but I have known some into that and I understand some of what you speak of. I think the key here (for me) is in the safeword. Since your doing a scene with a relative or complete stranger, a safeword is a necessity , in my opinion. I have seen experienced people with a great deal of trust who don't use a safeword with there longtime partners, people who subscribe to rack and so on. But in a pay a stranger to play with you situation, I think this is almost exactly what the safeword was invented for. If a sub uses their safeword, that should be it... 100% agreed. All non-con fantasies not withstanding that's supposed to be the deal there... signal safeword whatever, scene over. Ok... so that far I'm with you. I also agree that scaring is something that is completely unacceptable without special consent (I've never seen it from tickling, but I have seen it from the inexperienced and overzealous with a cane... if you don't know how to wield it, don't use it on a human being is my advise.) So in all this I think we are lockstep in thinking, but the next point is where we agree in PRACTICE, but I think we might disagree in THEORY.

In my practice, I agree, that it is a dominants job to be careful of his submissive, to respect and read her limits and how far she can go... and so on and so forth. To me, in my life, this is part of a dominants job... to balance your desires with your partner, to work as one. HOWEVER, in practice we know that there are pure, hardcore sadists who like to use women simply as objects and hurt them, or in our special niche to tickle torture them. AND we know, that their are indeed women who enjoy this kind of thing. That get off on it just as much as the sadist does. So "Mr. Tickle Torture Sadist" comes into the club, puts his money down, and wants to torture a ticklish girl... they get him a girl... club safeword is red.... torture begins, it gets more and more extreme, the girl is suffering horribly, she is in complete agony laying there thinking, as soon as this is over, I am going to quit so I never have to endure this again... She suffers, she never safewords she just suffers with it, she quits... a great asset to the community is lost. Ok, now if we start to think about this logically and without an anti-sadist bias what's the problem here. Well first off, let me say from a Dom angle I AGREE, this Dom made some major mistakes... he was probably inexperience, he didn't care about his submissive, and it looks like he didn't go through the proper negotiations about the scene with her BUT "Mr. Tickle Torture Sadist" may very well have been a college kid on his 21's birthday, getting this as a present from his friends (I've seen things like that) and he's never properly explored the lifestyle, maybe it was even his first chance to explore this fetish that he's been living with for years... now as people in the lifestyle, it would be our first thought to blame the Dom, because in the LIFESTYLE a great deal of what went wrong is the dominants fault. BUT this is not the lifestyle... it looks like the lifestyle, it may be part of the lifestyle, but what actually is going on here, is a service industry. And the sub in this scene as well as the people who run the dungeon are the PROFESSIONALS. That makes it THEIR responsibility. Both to educate the girl about the proper use of the safeword, and the girls to use it. If it is made clear to the "Mr. Tickle Torture Sadist" that the safeword must be respected and he goes ahead anyway... even if he's caught up in the moment, sure he is in the wrong, the scene should be stopped, by force if necessary, the person removed from the premises and not allowed to return, BUT if is in this case, the PROFESSIONAL submissive's responsibility, as a part of her profession to use her safeword.

We have to remember that not all people who do bdsm activities chose to make it a major part of their life as some of us do. They don't have the same codes of conduct. For them they are paying for a service. Sure you can say the girl wants to do a good job, but this doesn't alleviate her of personal responsibility. If the same girl went to work for a pizza place that had a 30 minute or its free guarantee, a guy ordered a lot of odd pizzas, she's running late... going a buck 20 down the interstate, and there's a traffic jam... but she REFUSES to use her brakes... she's gonna be a good pizza delivery girl... make the boss happy, make the guy who ordered the pizza happy... she dies in a fiery crash. Who's fault is that. The break was right there... it was her job as a responsible driver to use it.

I will even go further (with the reservation I haven't thought this out its just my first opinion) that this is part of the problem. Unlike in a relationship, a Dominant should feel ABLE to let go and be as sadistic as he desires (within the limits of a scene that should be negotiated... and if the Dom doesn't initiate negotiations cause he/she doesn't know better... one of the professionals, the person in charge of the dungeon or the submissive should do that), knowing he is working with a PROFESSIONAL and she won't let it go too far.

Because yes, I do ultimately believe that grown people have the right to do almost anything they want to or with each other if they are both consenting. Now once the safeword is used consent is withdrawn, but for me even though in the lifestyle it is different between doms and subs, the way I would treat people in my own relationships is very different and I wont get into that here, but in a service business like that, it is not fair to pass off all the blame on the "Dom" just because he decided to play Dom for a day and did it badly, when there were a variety of professional people involved who had a professional responsibility to take care of the safety of all parties.

That's just my opinion. Like I said I am not supporting ignoring safewords, or non-consensual torture or anything like that. I am just saying that there is nothing wrong with being a sadist, or enjoying the "tickle-torture" style of tickling, and of all people it would seem that one should be able to trust a professional to enforce her own limits. And no, this is not how I live my life, but I am into the lifestyle, and I take my role as a Dominant very seriously. Perhaps it is not for the best, but the truth is you don't have to have a licence to call yourself a Dom, you don't have to pass classes, and furthermore you don't have to be a Dom to go to a dungeon and play for a day. For all those reasons I feel that before you go lumping all of "Mr. Tickle Torture Sadists" together in a bad lot, you should remember that there's enough blame for these scenes gone wrong to go around.


Hey MasterTT....

I will have to read your thread a few more times, but I actually think I agree with much of what you have to say.......

my post here is a lot out of frustration, and a little venting.....

some of the club ladies that i wrote about have actually become friends of mine, so I admit to a bit of an emotional investment in this topic of cruelty in tickling...

some of the cruelty of the men in these clubs has actually worked to my benefit....I have some club lady friends who no longer do tickle sessions (they have the right to decline specific types of play) except with me or other guys that they know and trust...no more "newbies"....some are really ticklish, and would do tickle sessions under "normal" circumstances ( if only for the extra money), but they fear the arrival of "mr tickle sadist" and the discomfort that a session with him will entail....but they actually don't mind tickle sessions of a less stressful nature.....

look, if all parties are cool with the type of specified play, then i guess i say go for it....

but believe me when I tell you...actually i am sure you already know this.....there are some men in society and among us who have an actual criminally sadistically cruel capacity twoards women, men who would REALLY,ACTUALLY take a red hot poker to ladies flesh,if they could get away with it, just to hear the screams....and they are not all in prison, and they prey on the women and the weak....

and there is nothing to prevent these cowardly assholes (sorry, getting angry...just my opinion) from walking into a bdsm club....I know personally of assaults that have taken place and permanent scarring that has taken place by men who do not adhere to the rules....and the ladies really have little recourse....how much money is worth a permanent scar by some asshole?

and the club and bdsm lifestyle presents an unusual quandry when such assaults take place.....some lady "sub" gets a chunk of her cheek bitten off by some idiot, or gets severe scarring during a particularly rough "tickle session"....so the session ends.....how could she really complain or prosecute, because how can she prove that such an assault was not "consensual"? it's her word against the word of "mr tickle sadist".....

there's the fantasy world, and there is "real life"...and the real life fantasy acts by some of these men have permanent consequences......I just don't like when guys....and it's usually the men, joke about non consensual cruelty to women.....even in tickleplay.....
 
Thank you, Jaba, though I'm not quoting you fully...

jaba said:
there's the fantasy world, and there is "real life"...and the real life fantasy acts by some of these men have permanent consequences......I just don't like when guys....and it's usually the men, joke about non consensual cruelty to women.....even in tickleplay.....
Like most here I certainly understand the appeal of the *fantasy, and can blame no one for that, BUT ---- Unless there are 2 fully informed & consenting adults, it's cruel & unusual, illegal, immoral, whatever.
A NO GO.

To partially address what Master TT wrote well above, and pardon me as this is an off-the-cuff reply also --

If everyone in the scene is so ignorant & inexperienced that NOBODY discussed safewords,
then *perhaps it isn't the inexperienced Dom's fault *entirely, I think you're saying...

--- However, even if the guy is inexperienced, that's not an excuse!!
Any one, yes, any age, should KNOW TO STOP AND CHECK and certainly if *inexperienced --- that's all the more reason to do so ---
A *child would know better --- whether they'd do it is another matter, but they do KNOW BETTER than to continue when witnessing obvious extreme discomfort/agony -- Unless, again, they're "criminally sadistic"

And these are at least semi-intelligent adults we're referring to here... right??? :shock:

If no safeword (and there should be :disgust: ) STOP AND CHECK.
If a safeword, STOP PERIOD.

I also don't believe that in a scenario such as that described here, in a professional dungeon,
it isn't make ABSOLUTELY CLEAR TO ALL that a safeword or signal is to be respected.


I've only seen one "dungeon" myself, in NEST last spring, but from what I understand,
that's both common sense & standard procedure.

If a relatively inexperienced person such as myself (would have known better from childhood, and did) certainly this sort of negligence shouldn't exist in a "professional setting."

Otherwise, you have criminal assault. However it's defined.
And then the overly aggressive should be handed over to those Inquisitorial Dominatrixes Jaba made reference to... 🙄

Those in this forum who take cruelty lightly, or go for real non-con, are making excuses for criminal behavior, if not engaging in it.
 
It seems tickling has different levels for everyone , for some , a little bit of tickling will surfice , while others it's a long going ordeal . For some the littlest bit is almost torture and to go any further would be cruel . While others cannot get enough , for the ones that can't get enough it seems that it isn't a cruelty as long as it's within reason , that is , short of them being literally tortured by the tickling . Everyone one has their certain limits and every limit is to be respected however little the time or short the session , or however long the time or lengthy the session . To disregard any safety to these people would be disrespectful , humiliating and criminal ............. "Tickling and Trust" go hand in hand .............
 
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Babbles, you certainly live up to your name.

Cruelty is relative. What's cruel to some isn't cruel to others. It's up to the person to decide what they think is cruel; just don't come here looking for people to help justify your actions.

However common sense should dictate that if someone is screaming desperately for it to stop, then it's probably a good time to stop and check on the person -- or you can be completely crazy and just keep going until YOU are too tired to continue, at which point, yes, as someone said above, you deserve at least an ass kicking for it.
 
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She didn't know when to stop

One of the first time I ever did a switch tickling session was at a BDSM house in San Francisco, since defunct. The Lady, to remain nameless here, tickled me so mercilessly for the entire time I doubt I could have said the safeword.
By the way, I tickled her first and did not tickle her hard.
The result was that for the next two weeks I had severe bruises all over my ribs and stomach. The point here is that the Lady should have realized that her tickling was way over the edge and she should have stopped or at least toned it down to a reasonable level.
For me personally tickling is fun and if it goes beyond that for either party,
it should be stopped.
 
I just want to say that tickling can be cruel if when you're tickling a person who says stop, uses a safeword or indicates in some other way they've had enough and the ler ingnores their pleas. It becomes cruel because if that happens it no longer becomes fun for the lee. Also if this happens to the lee enough the lee will probably not like to be tickled as much or even worse anymore. I just think it's important to respect people's limits especially when it comes to tickling.

Also, I have look this up online and I think tickle torture was also used in China and Japan as punishment for royalty. I am not sure if this is true. Does anyone know for sure? I know that if I were tied and tickled & got to the point where I used my safeword I would want that person to respect that and give me a brief break from tickling.


:grouphug:
 
Stick to the topic.

Speedbump said:
Babbles, you certainly live up to your name.

Cruelty is relative. What's cruel to some isn't cruel to others. It's up to the person to decide what they think is cruel; just don't come here looking for people to help justify your actions.

However common sense should dictate that if someone is screaming desperately for it to stop, then it's probably a good time to stop and check on the person -- or you can be completely crazy and just keep going until YOU are too tired to continue, at which point, yes, as someone said above, you deserve at least an ass kicking for it.

At least I make sense & don't instigate or tolerate personal attacks or bullying.

That's obviously always been my point, and you just re-stated it yourself.

My only "action" would be to defend someone if I happened to witness it,
as you know all too well. It's really not wise of you to dredge up references to your previous disgraceful conduct, or my replies to it.

I suggest you attempt posting without inane, contradictory & immature flaming.
 
Speedbump said:
Babbles, you certainly live up to your name.

What was that all about?

I thought she made some relevant, intelligent points in her posts.

what points in her post don't you agree with?
 
Merely the latest installment of a very old argument on here...

...I'm surprised I haven't seen the usual righteous indignation from the pro-non-consensual quarters that we've had in the past. I refuse to believe that they've been hounded into...uh...submission.

For me, it's always been about playful fun. I don't like being sore and bruised afterwards...so, the thought of what Jaba described is an extreme turn-off to me. I want no part of it whatsoever.

When it becomes non-consensual, it most certainly becomes assault...regardless of whether the assaulter's turned on or not!

Just my opinion.
 
Babbles said:
At least I make sense & don't instigate or tolerate personal attacks or bullying.

That's obviously always been my point, and you just re-stated it yourself.

My only "action" would be to defend someone if I happened to witness it,
as you know all too well. It's really not wise of you to dredge up references to your previous disgraceful conduct, or my replies to it.

I suggest you attempt posting without inane, contradictory & immature flaming.

What's always been your point? What have I re-stated? I think you've read far too much into what I said.

Inane and immature maybe, but I didn't contradict myself. I pointed something out, then my own feelings on the subject. Aside from that first line, none of the message was actually meant for only you, anyway.
 
tickling is only cruel when it is not wanted. Even though i love being tickled even i don't want it to last forever!

i am an extremely ticklish person and need breaks every minute or so, just to breathe and get all the giggles out! luckily i have an observant bf who even tho he has no idea i love being tickled, he knows when i need it to stop
 
Just to refine a bit what I said for Babbles... I wasn't saying that if a person were inexperienced it was an excuse. What I am mostly saying is that in the huge majority of dungeons or bdsm parties safewords are in place, and if the lee doesn't use one it is as much her fault if not more so. I know some people here are really sweet... and there always concerned that anyone might be a tinny bit uncomfortable or suffering in any way... and that is great for them. But I also know a great many people into heavy play who do not want to hear you checking in after every hard flogger stroke "your still ok... your sure... cause that sounded loud and you did scream you know" ... "yeah I know go ahead" WHACK "ok that one was ok too? it didn't hurt too much?" --- this is the point of the safeword. Now, I don't really like public dungeons, I prefer to have a personal relationship with someone where I already know the signs to look for... but in the kind of situation we are discussing almost EVERYONE is inexperienced, because they have no experience with that particular submissive. I am NOT nor have I ever said that people who go past safewords are not going to far, or that if you are playing without a safeword you don't have responsibilities to the submissive you absolutely do. I just think its a combination of bias against sadism and a kind of emotionalism that leads people to say, oh the big mean sadist hurt the little bitty girl, how bad he is lets forget that she is a grown up and had any responsibility. When people have conversations about safewords I think this is one of the main points, without a safeword there is ambiguity, with one, there should not be.
For me it comes down to this... TRUE non-consensual torture can be only two things, a fantasy or a crime. I have trouble seeing many if any gray areas here, but for me the issue of consent is simple... grown ups have a right to do what they want... I know I differ with some people on that and that's ok with me, it takes all kinds, but for me that's the gist of it. If there is no safeword in place in a public dungeon, all I am saying is ALOT of people messed up not just one, and I agree the Dom in this situation is very much at fault too. If there is, then it is hard for me to agree with putting all the blame on the Dom when all this person who was suffering SO much had to do, was say a word. There are cruel sadistic people out there.... there are also extremely masochistic people out there.
I think Jaba summed it up when he said there were "men who would REALLY,ACTUALLY take a red hot poker to ladies flesh,if they could get away with it, just to hear the screams" yes there are. And I know this is really hard for people to believe, but there ARE women out there who would let them do it and like it. Not my cup of tea, I really don't like scaring period, but there are both kinds. Now I think Jaba is talking about the kind who would do it without consent, can I believe that if they act on that then they should certainly be put in jail. The key always has been, always will be consent. If a safeword is in place, in a negotiated scene, you have given consent until you retract it by using the safeword. If your using some non-safeword style of bdsm that's another issue, but that's how safewords work. As a dear subbie friend of mine said "No does not mean NO, but Grapefruit by god means NO!"
 
I agree, consent is key

MasterTT said:
Just to refine a bit what I said for Babbles... I wasn't saying that if a person were inexperienced it was an excuse.

...But I also know a great many people into heavy play who do not want to hear you checking in after every hard flogger stroke "your still ok... your sure... cause that sounded loud and you did scream you know" ... "yeah I know go ahead" WHACK "ok that one was ok too? it didn't hurt too much?" --- this is the point of the safeword....

For me it comes down to this... TRUE non-consensual torture can be only two things, a fantasy or a crime. I have trouble seeing many if any gray areas here, but for me the issue of consent is simple... grown ups have a right to do what they want... I know I differ with some people on that and that's ok with me, it takes all kinds, but for me that's the gist of it. If there is no safeword in place in a public dungeon, all I am saying is ALOT of people messed up not just one...
.....There are cruel sadistic people out there.... there are also extremely masochistic people out there.
.....The key always has been, always will be consent. If a safeword is in place, in a negotiated scene, you have given consent until you retract it by using the safeword. If your using some non-safeword style of bdsm that's another issue, but that's how safewords work.

As a dear subbie friend of mine said "No does not mean NO, but Grapefruit by god means NO!"
That last line is hysterical!! :dogpile: Yes, the safeword is the (last word...)

I agree with you in that if a sub/lee doesn't speak up or use whatever's available in terms of safety words/gestures, then of course it's the lees fault in part at least --
(except perhaps if there is no opportunity given, though that's another matter entirely, and obviously not a good or healthy circumstance. Someone stated earlier -- rep89 --- he wasn't given the chance, he was tickled so brutally he couldn't articulate the safeword..... But again, I realize that's not what you're referring to).

Otherwise, and I've seen this brought up in other threads also, I see your point as to tolerance of BDSM play of any sort generally --- Though I may be absolutely horrified by what's happening myself I won't judge anyone if they're "playing" in any manner with a fully informed & consenting adult ----
Whatever people want to do is just fine by me as long as they're all happy about it, truly & fully (and there's a safety net offered clearly, if they want it & know what they're doing or getting themselves into...)

My only problem is with those who'd inflict actual torture, as you & others mentioned -- Similar to the phrase "rape fantasy," an oxymoron --- If it's *real rape/torture, it can't be tolerable. If it's a fantasy with consenting adults, that's fine....
of course those who'd brutalize an unwilling person for kicks are in another category, and they should be... dealt with...
rather than allowed to continue traumatizing folks & getting away with it (or getting paid for copies of the video, if that's the case... Numerous threads on that topic too...)

I think/hope most people agree tickling can be real torture, and that that isn't acceptable if consent is not given or is withdrawn.... 🙁
Thanks for taking the time to explain the matter on so many levels 🙂
 
ticklejen said:
I just want to say that tickling can be cruel if when you're tickling a person who says stop, uses a safeword or indicates in some other way they've had enough and the ler ingnores their pleas. It becomes cruel because if that happens it no longer becomes fun for the lee. Also if this happens to the lee enough the lee will probably not like to be tickled as much or even worse anymore. I just think it's important to respect people's limits especially when it comes to tickling.

I know that if I were tied and tickled & got to the point where I used my safeword I would want that person to respect that and give me a brief break from tickling.


:grouphug:
There ya have it.....simpatico....

For me...being tickled was always about FUN.....and the people in my life from infancy to this very day always made it FUN to be tickled. I loved being made to laugh as it was, and it was all the better when I was being tickled. Sure...there were a number of moments where I was maybe tickled beyond my 'threshold....' but I recovered (without fanfare), and of the female members (those who tickled me most) that might've gone a little over the top were often apologetic about it, especially once they saw just how red my face might've been (from laughing so much), or if I were sort of holding my stomach....still giggling like a nut, however!! LOL!

In the experiences I've had in tickling women...whether they were friends or girlfriends....my biggest priorities were making it fun, and respecting their limitations. Most of them were very open and accepting of it; which was absolutely great, and even then....some could only take it in small increments...others liked the longer-lasting moments. Just like anything else two people can share; communication is KEY....
 
Vae said:
The Romans used it to gather information from victims too.


True, but I don't think there could be any doubt that the Chinese made tickle-torture (and I mean real torture) into an art-form
 
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