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WOW! Look at Kobe go!!

This season should teach the Lakers and Kobe a valuable basketball lesson: NEVER TRADE AWAY A DOMINANT BIG MAN! Especially when that big man is none other than Shaq!!
 
The Lakers and their owner, Dr Jerry Buss, made two lethal mistakes that cost their team this season. First, you do not let a coach like Phil Jackson, who has nine championships, including three for your team, go. Buss should have found a way to keep Jackson, and to order his players to stifle their petty differences. In Jackson's book, he quotes Kobe as saying he was "tired of being Shaq's sidekick". Well, Kobe, if you weren't so selfish, you'd realize that being a "sidekick" on a team that wins championships is better than where you are now, as the "main man" on a team that probably wont even make the playoffs.
Second, you dont trade a guy with the talent of Shaquille O Neal. The Lakers had won 3 titles with him, and he had gotten an injury riddled team to the finals a fourth time last year. Trading Shaq was a lethal mistake, one that may cost the Lakers in the standings not only this year, but for a long time to come.
Does anyone think Shaq is sitting in Miami, on a team that will likely win 60 plus games and have an amazing season, and laughing up his sleeve at how he is again playing for a great NBA team, while the Lakers have fallen apart without him. The crowning achievement for Shaq would be to win another title in Miami this year, to further stick it to Buss and the Lakers for trading him. I personally hope it happens.
Buss, who has run the Lakers at a championship level at times during his 25 year tenure as Lakers owner, made some terrible mistakes this offseason. Now, he is paying for them in the standings. Unless the Lakers get a major free agent this summer, and a coach to bring it all together, it could well be another down era for the L.A. Lakers. That is so unfortunate, after all the success they enjoyed under Jackson, Kobe, and Shaq.

Mitch
 
the funny thing about this whole thread is: people just dont pay attention to any facts. they just go on the media and that's it. let's get something straight, Shaq DID NOT carry the Lakers to the finals last year. it was THE team. let's face facts folks.

if you were a basketball owner and your "main" guy always showed up fat and out of shape, demands that he gets the ball everytime and he wont play defense until he does, actually say in the media that he's the "General Manager" which disrespects your actual GM, says why should he rehabilitate his injury in the offseason when he SHOULD do it during the season, and says he will probably retire sooner than most expected, what do you do? be honest with yourselves. Shaq is a LIABILITY in the 4th quarter because of his free throw shooting. face it folks, Shaq is a great player, but he isnt the greatest player ever.

in case no one noticed, if it wasnt for Kobe Bryant, the Lakers NEVER EVER make it past the Spurs in the playoffs. the Spurs shut down Shaq on a routine basis. it is Kobe Bryant that constantly kills the Spurs. even Mr. O'neal acknowledged that fact in 2001 and 2002. if it wasnt for Kobe Bryant, the Lakers get swept by Detroit in the finals. people say, Shaq was Finals MVP!! well duh, who in the East could match up with him? NO ONE. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. but how did they get to the Finals? Kobe Bryant.

now, Kobe Bryant isnt an angel, but he is getting a bum rap for stuff he didnt even do. it wasnt him that "broke" up the Lakers. it was between Buss and Shaq. if anyone ever decides to listen to the words Shaq says in the media, you can tell he left because of money, NOT Kobe Bryant. Shaq has said it a billion times. "I'm a business man. i will always look out for me." that's the reason why he isnt in Orlando. that's why he's no longer in LA. money, pure and simple.

Kobe Bryant is one of the hardest working basketball players ever. he dedicates a lot of time and energy in the offseason to improve his game. he can win games in the 4th quarter. but yet, he is the most hated basketball player today. i am amazed how on much people play into the media. the media has totally created this image of Kobe being the bad guy. not once did you ever hear Kobe say "give me the ball!" not once did you hear Kobe badmouth another team like Shaq does. not once did you ever hear Kobe Bryant say, "i want my own team!". not once did you ever hear him say "i cant play with Shaq". the "sidekick" comment is true and he has every right to say it. if you bust your ass in the offseason every year, but you have to play 2nd fiddle to a extremely lazy player and you are extremely talented, wouldnt you be pissed? be honest with yourself. that's like you are a great worker at your job, but just because someone else who once did great and still has the potential to do something great, bad mouths the boss, greedy and selfish himself, gets the position you wanted, you would be pissed. again, be HONEST with yourself.

as for Phil Jackson. despite the fact that he said Kobe was "uncoachable", why did he also say they worked things out and he still has respect for Kobe? isnt Phil the master of controlling egos? how come he couldnt "control" Kobe's? makes you wonder....

i think people want to hate Kobe because he is the closest thing to Michael Jordan and people do not want to see it. Kobe will NEVER be Jordan. Kobe will be Kobe. let the man be. all this stuff about him being arrogant is funny as Kobe has never said anything. Shaq ALWAYS says something arrogant, but yet, no one criticizes him. why? he's media friendly. remember the big huff on Kobe when he said "my guys are busting their tails off..."? the entire Kobe haters screamed and bitched and moaned about him saying "my guys...". yet Shaq ALWAYS says "my guys..." when he's refering to his team. no criticism. amazing, simply amazing.

people, really look into everything and stop giving opinions when you dont look at the whole truth. i am a diehard Laker fan. is Kobe innocent? no. but Kobe shouldnt be blamed for everything. Shaq, Phil, Jerry Buss and Kobe Bryant ALL played a part in the breakup. it's funny, everyone hoped the Lakers would break up, now that they did, they ridicule Kobe. i GUARANTEE you if Kobe played for another team, he wouldnt get the bad press he is getting now. the Lakers are the most hated team in basketball. they are the Yankees of basketball. i think people fear Kobe bringing the Lakers back to their dominant role. dont blink, your fear may be realized.

i just want people to have an open mind. pay attention to all the facts before ripping Mr. Bryant.
 
primetime:

I won't quote you but I agree with you completely. Kobe screws around on his wife (who trapped him into marriage by threatening abortion after she purposely got herself knocked up) and becomes the blame for everything from the demise of the Lakers to the war in the middle east!

I have never liked Shaquille O'Neal! He's an arrogant loudmouth soon to be has-been who shatters backboards but can't keep up on the floor for being too out of shape. Everytime he gets a microphone in his face he's running his mouth. I haven't heard Kobe say anything derogotory about Shaq or Phil Jackson (Mr. Ego). He may be a good coach, but his arrogance is nauseating.

I think Kobe will bounce back-he really doesn't have much of a choice if he ever plans to get the media and the public off his back and get on with his life.
 
primetime said:
let's get something straight, Shaq DID NOT carry the Lakers to the finals last year. it was THE team. let's face facts folks.


Fact. The only major significant changes were the loss of Shaq and a coach. And yet this *team* has the longest losing streak in ELEVEN years?? Fact. All because ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, a lazy, arrogant, out of shape, selfish player left? Hmm, if Shaq was as you describe, how would that really matter??

Superman and Flash have won a division. Fact. Superman and Flash work as a TEAM. Fact. Now if Shaq was as you describe, do you HONESTLY think Dwayne Wade could get along with him? Do you HONESTLY think the Miami Heat would have wanted him, yet alone pay his salary? They realize that Shaq as a leader can carry a team. Wade realizes that. Fact. MIAMI HEAT ARE DIVISION CHAMPS. Fact. I don't see Dwayne Wade insulting Shaq. Fact. I don't see Dwaye Wade demanding to be the highest player on the Heat's payroll. Shaq and Wade are going to the playoffs. Fact. Kobe has a good chance to be sitting at home during the playoffs. Maybe he should become fat, out of shape and even more arrogant and selfish. Maybe then - just maybe - the Lakers would at least just make the playoffs.
 
Ah... I thought this was about the Kobe case... nevermind... As long as they keep Kobe away from loose women, I think he'll be alright...
 
tickletoy3, you say the only significant change is Shaq and Phil. WRONG. the Lakers went from Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, Fisher, George and Fox to.....Kobe and.........yeah, exactly.

the problem with the Lakers is that they banked a lot of the season with Karl Malone and Vlade Divac being healthy and playing. they didnt project Chris Mihm and Lamar Odom as their frontcourt center and power forward. plus, the Lakers also lost their coach midseason. you dont think that will affect the team? they practiced ALL SUMMER LONG under Rudy Tomjanovich's system, then he steps down and Frank Hamblen brings back the triangle offense. only Kobe Bryant, Devean "am i worth any money?" George and Slava Medevenko have triangle experience. this Laker team is NEW. you cant expect a team to change their entire offensive philosophy during the middle of the season and be contenders.

this Laker dismal season has NOTHING to do with Kobe Bryant. if anyone ever remembers, it was SHAQ that asked to be traded. no, excuse me, he DEMANDED to be traded. Shaq is not T-H-E reason why teams win. notice all of his championship appearing teams (i.e. Orlando and LA) Shaq had a PLAYMAKER with him. Penny Hardaway and Kobe Bryant. you take out Kobe or Penny, Shaq and "his" team go nowhere. when Miami faces Detroit, Larry Brown is going to use the same strategy he used against the Lakers. take Dwyane Wade out of the picture. single cover Shaq. Heat LOSES. the same thing is happening again. Detroit is quietly playing good basketball and the Heat are getting all the attention. Detroit has championship experience and excellent team concepts. Mr. O'Neal is going to have to try and beat Detroit as Mr. Wade will be nullified by three Pistons, much like Kobe felt last year.

again, how come the Kobe haters never come up with one arrogant statement that Kobe makes routinely, but yet everytime Shaq opens his mouth, he is spewing arrogance out? you say Dwyane Wade isnt demanding the be the highest paid player on the team. what point are you making? SHAQ HAS DEMANDED EVERY YEAR TO BE THE HIGHEST PAID PLAYER. he left the Lakers because Buss wasnt going to pay him 30 million dollars a year to be fat, lazy and disrespect managment in the media all the time.

remember, Eddie Jones was a Laker. a BELOVED Laker. guess who wanted him out? Shaq. Shaq wanted Glen Rice to come in. guess who has ripped Eddie Jones this year? SHAQ. guess who is still "saving himself for the playoffs" in January this year? SHAQ. he has SAID this in the media, yet no one seems to care. Kobe hasnt ripped Shaq or Phil in the media AT ALL! Kobe takes the high road, but he's the villian. Shaq is constantly ripping Kobe and the Lakers every chance he opens his mouth, but no one says anything.

the reason why Kobe ripped Shaq at the beginning of the 2004-2005 season? because Shaq decided to blast him. remember when the Lakers went to Hawaii for training camp and Kobe didnt make it the first day because of the legal stuff? what did Shaq say? "the WHOLE team is here." uh, what about Kobe? for all this stuff about Kobe not liking Shaq, have you EVER heard Shaq say he wants Kobe to remain a Laker? NO. yet, Kobe has said, IN THE MEDIA, he could play with Phil and Shaq forever. Kobe Bryant has said, IN THE MEDIA, Shaq is the most dominant player in the game, who wouldnt want to play with him? NOT ONCE did Kobe ever say he doesnt want to be Shaq's teammate. i have NEVER heard Shaq say to ANYONE that he wanted to play with Kobe. how come no ruckus about Shaq? i will tell you why. Kobe isnt media "friendly" and Shaq is. that is why i said keep an open mind and look at EVERYTHING that went down. Shaq played the BIGGEST part in the Laker breakup last year. sorry, the Heat was already built for a good year this year without Shaq. his presence gives them the confidence they needed. they were already going to be good. Shaq will not carry the Heat. Dwyane Wade will. the Heat goes as far as Wade goes. watch and learn.....

bottom line, the Lakers are not successful this year due to injuries, Karl Malone punking out and Rudy T stepping down. once Rudy T stepped down, i told a lot of people that they were going to be hurting. this is NOT Kobe's doing. the Lakers have no big men. again, had Vlade and Malone played, they Lakers would have been okay. if Rudy T stuck around, they would be okay. all this other crap happens and people blame Kobe. amazing. leave the man alone.....
 
So a good team (Miami Heat) with potential, and all-star player (Wade) adds a fat, lazy, arrogant, management-hating center (Shaq) and becomes the team with the league's best record and division champions?

Meanwhile Kobe loses a fat, lazy, arrogant, management-hating center. A coach he never really got along with. A couple players who should have been retired anyway and some other 'good' players but not all-stars.. and the team suffers the longest losing streak in 11 years?

ELEVEN YEARS - not one or two or even five, we're talking ELEVEN! How many coaching changes have the Lakers had? Haven't they always been pretty much successful? So now a coaching change is Kobe's reason for not winning? Give me a break. It's just as difficult to coach a new player as it is to work for a new coach. As you can see Shaq has had a lot of that problem in Miami.

You do the math.
 
My view on the whole situation:

Over the years, Shaq has definitely had his share of questionable injuries, and has been out of the lineup probably more than he should. That is true. The fact is, though, that when Shaq IS in the lineup, he is the most dominant big man in the game. I dont approve of his outrageous salary demand, and for that reason, the Lakers had every right to trade him. Unfortunately, I still think it was a mistake.
While the whole Shaq- Kobe thing may have been a two sided thing, the fact is this, and this is from Jackson himself. Kobe showed a lot of disrespect to a coach who had won six titles when he came in to coach the Lakers. Jackson had worked well with Michael Jordan, perhaps the greatest player to ever play the game, and won six titles with him. Jackson describes the last meeting with Kobe last summer before leaving the Lakers, and pointedly discusses how Kobe gave him the brush off when Jackson asked Kobe his opinion on Jackson returning to the Lakers. You dont disrespect your coach like that, no matter who you are, and how much money you make, especially a guy who has won 3 titles with your team. The fact is, Kobe has an attitude. Jackson discusses such in depth. It doesnt matter how fat or lazy Shaq was or is, it still doesnt change what Kobe is. While the Lakers have had injuries and a coaching change, I still dont think that even if healthy, Kobe alone could carry the Lakers to a title. He is not Jordan, in his talent, his mannerisms, or his attitude. There is an aura about him that people dont like. If I was an NBA player, fortunate enough to make as much money as Kobe, and play for a championship team, and Jackson came to me, and asked me how I felt about him retiring, my reply would be this: "Phil, you are a great coach, and this team has won 3 titles with you. I want this championship run to continue, I'd like if you not retire. Hopefully if you dont, Shaq and I can work things out, and he'll want to stay too, so we can win more titles." This isnt what Kobe said. He wanted to be THE man, well now, he can be THE man for a mediocre team. He pointedly said he is tired of being Shaq's sidekick. I would rather be Shaq's sidekick, and score 18 a night on a team that wins titles, then score 30 a night on a team that finishes 500 and doesnt make the playoffs. Kobe doesnt see this.
Alas, the Lakers need changes this summer, and, given their recent history, they may bounce back after a year or two if they can get a good coach and a free agent or two, but mistakes were still made, and Shaq may still get the last laugh if he wins a title this year in Miami, a distinct possibility the way the Heat are playing.

Mitch

One final issue about Kobe and his attitude. Phil Jackson describes in his book how after he found out about Kobe's rape allegations, he called Kobe THREE TIMES during his 2003 summer vacation, and Kobe never called him back. That is arrogance. Jackson claims he wasnt offended, but would any of us have the audacity not to call our leader or department head back, even during vacation, if they called us three times? While it was true that Jackson couldnt fire Kobe, there is still a very negative message when a player does that to their coach. Fact is, Kobe has an attitude. He is a good player as far as his stats, but this year has proven that he alone cant carry the Lakers to where they need to be. Bottom line.
 
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the problem i have is everyone blaming Kobe for the Lakers bad season, global warming and the AIDS virus. there were so many things that went down, it's just "easy" for everyone to blame Kobe. you guys make valid points, but why not look at the other things?

for example, Phil Jackson is a great coach, no doubt. however, he isnt THAT great. Phil cant build a team. he cant get the most out of guys and make them go from the bottom to the top. Larry Brown can. Phil is like the icing on the cake. someone else puts the ingredients together, bakes the cake and sends it out to Phil to put icing on it.

another thing about Phil. did you know he was asked if he could build a team from scratch with superstars, he chose Shaq over....... MICHAEL JORDAN?????!!!! now let's get real here. Shaq is a dominant player, but you wouldnt take MJ????!!! i'm sorry, i will take a guy you works his ass off, has a "killer" demeanor on the court and wants to win every game, than some guy who takes advantage of his size and doesnt even care until playoffs. there's a reason why the Lakers never won 72 games like the Bulls. there's a reason why the Lakers never had dominant regular seasons like the Bulls. their "leader" was a lazy fat guy and the team went along with it. Jordan WILLED his guys to work hard. if not, then they have to deal with him.

no Kobe IS NOT even close to Jordan. but he has Jordan characteristics. contrary to popular belief, Jordan and Phil werent the best of friends from the beginning as well. but, Jordan eventually learned that he had to involve his teammates if he wanted to win. the Kobe-Phil situation is different. in Chicago, Jordan was the #1 option. in LA, Kobe was the #2 option, behind lazy man. if you think about it, would you blame Kobe for being upset with Shaq when he is working hard and Shaq isnt? why should the #2 guy have to be the guy willing to get his teammates better when the #1 guy is fooling around?

let's look at Shaq for a moment. granted, i do miss the guy. BUT, if you really think about it, if Shaq's size wasnt there, he has Z-E-R-O skills as a basketball player. he is only "dominant" because there is no other big man like him size wise. he cant make free-throws, he cant make consistent outside shots. he has no value if he's more than 3 feet from the rim. Kobe, much like Jordan, is effective EVERYWHERE. Kobe has skills, Shaq doesnt. he just has size. that's why Shaq is lazy. no one matches up to him pound for pound. but, Kobe Bryant gets ripped for working hard every game, but Shaq? Shaq is the "class clown". media perceptions are amazing.

how come Kobe got ripped for saying "my guys...." when Shaq says it all the time? again, media perceptions. you make a point about Kobe receiving phone calls from Phil, but not returning them. question is, did Shaq call Kobe? NO. Kobe received phone calls from everyone, including Jordan and Tiger Woods, who didnt even have Kobe's number. Shaq DIDNT EVEN CALL THE MAN!!!!! you talk about Kobe disrespecting Phil, but what about Shaq? oh, i forgot, everyone loves Shaq.

bottom line, there is blame for EVERYONE!!! Kobe Bryant is NOT the CENTRAL reason why the Lakers broke up. sorry folks, did you also read Phil's words when he said he wanted to trade Kobe BEFORE the 1999 season? the 1999 season was the first season Phil coached the Lakers. how do you know someone is uncoachable if you havent even spent ONE full year with him? Phil coached Dennis "i'm a certified loon" Rodman and managed to deal with him. i dont think Phil wanted to coach Kobe period. why? we may never know. But the blame goes everywhere. i am ripping Shaq because he is constantly flapping his gums when he had much to do with the breakup as anyone else did. Phil has some blame. Jerry Buss has some blame. notice Derek Fisher even left because of money. Gary Payton ripped Phil almost everyday, but Kobe gets criticized for "disrespecting" the coach. you would think Gary Payton, who has ZERO, rings, would listen to Phil, but he didnt. no one says a word. Kobe Bryant has a few run ins with the Coach and Kobe is the horrible man. Kobe has said in the media that he respects Phil. they arent the best of friends, but Kobe HAS ACKNOWLEDGED he respects Phil and CAN PLAY FOR HIM. Kobe has said IN THE MEDIA, that Phil has taught him a lot. but those comments always seemed to be forgotten.

the point i am trying to make is stop blaming Kobe for the breakup of the Lakers and world hunger. when asked if he would mind if Phil returned to the Lakers, Kobe said "i am willing to roll with whatever management decides." stop! i can hear you now. Kobe isnt "drooling" or "clamoring" over Phil's return. it's the middle of the season. if Phil comes back, which i doubt, then we will see what BOTH parties say. Jerry Buss has admitted he made a HUGE mistake in letting Phil go. now we will see what happens.
 
I don't argue for one minute that Shaq is no Michael Jordan. He's definitely not. I totally agree that MJ has skills Shaq can only dream about. But I find Shaq's comments humorous. When asked about his inability to shoot from outside or make free throws, Shaq's own comments were "The object is to get the ball in the hoop. It counts the same if it is one foot or 20 feet. That's what I do. Get the ball in the hoop." I have to agree with him. Then when asked again about his free throws, Shaq flashed his smile and simply said "I have to work on that one." He didn't deny it. He didn't make excuses. He simply said I have to work on it.

I just wish Shaq and Kobe could have stayed together. I agree they were the Yanks of the hardwood. It would have been fun to see how many titles they would have won. But #2 didn't want to stay #2 and #1 didn't want to give up #1. Funny thing is, at first I saw the same thing beginning to unfold in the Yankees. Jeter and A-Rod. Who was going to be number one or number two? So far they seemed to have worked it out. I just wish the other two guys wearing purple and gold could have. :sowrong:
 
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as much as i am bashing Shaq, i still wish he was a Laker. when Miami and the Lakers played on Christmas day, i felt like a kid in a bad divorce. we were left with mommy and daddy left to another town.

funny thing is, all the anti-Laker fans WANTED to see the lakers breakup for years. a lot of the problems were media created. no one outside of LA wanted to see Kobe and Shaq stay together because everyone knew they would be unstoppable. the even funnier thing is, the breakup happened and everybody wants to bash Kobe for destroying such a good thing. but isnt this what they wanted? the Laker dynasty in ruins?

now, if i owned the Lakers, this is what would have happened. i would have sat Kobe, Shaq and Phil down in my office. just the four of us. no cameras, no agents, no girlfriends, bodyguards, just us four. i would have told each the following:

Phil: look Phil, i respect you. however we have to do something about this crap in the media. i want you to stay as coach, but we have to do something about the players. in other words, we need better stiffs. Fox is done, i still miss Horry, and Fisher is okay. find me some new role players and keep your mouth shut about Kobe and Shaq.

Kobe: look, Shaq is almost a thousand years old. just hang in there a few more years and the show will be yours. do you really want to leave LA and deal with a bunch of morons and bad weather? but, you need to smile more in the media. we all know that ***** lied about you raping her, but we need to repair your media image. you may not care what people think, but you should. smile more! crack some jokes! in other words, act goofy like Shaq. people like funny people! you can be serious on the court, but you need to show that you are a human being.

Shaq: look fatty, no more coming into camp out of shape. no more salary demands. just like you said, you should heal on company time, then i am going to treat you like an employee. guess what? LAZY people dont get paid well. you want 30 million dollars a year, show me you care! show me you DESERVE it! put down the Krispy Kremes and show up like the Shaq of old. you had ONE, read my lips, ONE dominant season since Phil has been here. now that we have won titles, you seemed to go back into fat and lazy mode. make some free throws while you're at it.

Kobe and Shaq: look you two, no more griping at each other. EVERYBODY KNOWS if you stay together, we win a jillion titles in a row. we can break the Celtics record. but you two need to cooperate. trust me, the FANS DONT CARE who is #1 or #2. we wants rings! we want parades!! we just want to win! you both sell tons of jerseys! you need each other! in fact, i think i am going to send both of you to Gilligan's Island by yourselves for a month. LEARN to live with each other. i bet if you two were by yourselves without the distractions of everyone else, you would probably be best of friends. we fans have seen what it's like when you two get along. dammit, i dont care who's #1. but you two need to stop acting like some freakin children, lead this team and bring me some championships dammit!! we are the most HATED team out there, the last thing we need is to hate each other. where is the love??


this is what needs to happen. or what should have happened. Lakers fans are in pain and the rest of the world is enjoying it. but, remember, the purple and gold will rise again......we always have and we always WILL.
 
I'll say that as a life long Lakers fan, I agree with what Primetime has said about Shaq. He was fat, lazy and felt he was above the team.
Isn't it ironic that once he realized he wasn't untouchable that he decided to get in better shape to prove a point.
The Lakers are down for now, but will be back. All teams have there rebuilding times and I've been through a few of them.
As for Shaq, good for him and good riddence.
 
Sounds like Shaq and Kobe might meet each other in the finals. I bet you guys as well as the NBA would love that eh? Hey how old is Shaq? I remember when the Magic drafted him, we "grew up together" Ha! Ha! Shaq must be 32 or 33 right?
 
All I will say is YES!!! Kobe has got coming to him exactly what he deserved. He is a self-centered, selfish basketball playing rapist who is reaping what you sow. He had it all, championships galore, and ruined it just because he wants to be the "man". If that isn't selfish, I dunno what is. He got rid of the greatest coach alive, the most dominant big man in the past 30 years, just so he can get all the accolades. If there is a God somewhere, the Lakers should be a lottery team for the next 15 years. He and the Lakers deserve all of this.
 
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