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Stop Calling Grown Women "Girls"

chicago said:
That's a good point. You can find sites about anything these days, which makes finding real information increasingly difficult.

Fair enough and thank you for not being rude in that post.
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You’re very welcome. :)
 
silverstar said:
Again, if you don't want to be held accountable to the rules that you wanted to play by, because you did your fair share of insulting through condescension, let me know and we can step out of the pig pen.

Until then, the new rules are in effect.
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You didn't answer my question. No one mentioned rules or games or "winning" but you.
 
chicago said:
You didn't answer my question. No one mentioned rules or games or "winning" but you.
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Whenever you wanna stop playing victim and accusing me (and others) of the very same thing you do, and start acting like a woman, then I'm more than willing to take you seriously and have a rational conversation with you.
 
Lol notice how it's the psychotic incel manlet who is trying to dictate the terms of discourse.

Point proven.
 
meangry said:
Lol notice how it's the psychotic incel manlet who is trying to dictate the terms of discourse.

Point proven.
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^ Fraud.

Claimed I was on his ignore list, but yet here he is, watching my posts. Proven liar who doesn't believe in what he says and stands for zero.
 
meangry said:
Yeah, the responses in this thread by usgrant, IrvingKrebb, mabus, smokinj, and silverstar are essentially garbage posts.

So when I'm talking about edgelords and sexually arrested development in posters...it's people like that. It's people who are combative about a very simple request. Which, if you look through this thread, is clear in how they posted. But hey, being a trash person isn't a bannable offense, so whatever. I'll just add them to my ignore list and move on, like most people should.
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The side of tolerance, ladies and gentlemen! "Either you agree with us, or you're trash". Preaching about tolerance, inclusiveness... while at the same time essentially hating everyone and everything that does not conform. You'd have made a spiffy fascist.

I understand you believe in your ideas (so do I), and I commend you for that. But I find your approach to politics disturbing to say the least. When you start dehumanizing the opposition (I could have added that bit you said about cockroaches as an example), calling them "trash", "nothing", and god knows what else, you are not debating anymore. You are pouring out hate. And you are giving intellectual cause for abuse of said opposition.

You mentioned something about creating content. You're a great writer; I read all your stories, and I loved them. You have a massive talent, and you've been an inspiration for me. Your commissions to artists have not gone unnoticed either. You can legitimately be proud of what you've done. But that does not give you the right to pour scorn over the less talented or creative than you. It makes you appear like a very, very small and hateful man.
 
Tenebrae said:
The side of tolerance, ladies and gentlemen! "Either you agree with us, or you're trash". Preaching about tolerance, inclusiveness... while at the same time essentially hating everyone and everything that does not conform. You'd have made a spiffy fascist.

I understand you believe in your ideas (so do I), and I commend you for that. But I find your approach to politics disturbing to say the least. When you start dehumanizing the opposition (I could have added that bit you said about cockroaches as an example), calling them "trash", "nothing", and god knows what else, you are not debating anymore. You are pouring out hate. And you are giving intellectual cause for abuse of said opposition.

You mentioned something about creating content. You're a great writer; I read all your stories, and I loved them. You have a massive talent, and you've been an inspiration for me. Your commissions to artists have not gone unnoticed either. You can legitimately be proud of what you've done. But that does not give you the right to pour scorn over the less talented or creative than you. It makes you appear like a very, very small and hateful man.
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But that's just the thing: he DOESN'T believe in his ideas. He believes his ideas only apply to everyone else, but not himself. That's not believing in your ideas. He feels that as long as he at least SAYS that he stands for a higher cause, then that is enough to give his individual actions a pass.

They know that their ideas suck or have no base, so promulgating hate is all they have.
 
silverstar said:
Whenever you wanna stop playing victim and accusing me (and others) of the very same thing you do, and start acting like a woman, then I'm more than willing to take you seriously and have a rational conversation with you.
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I'm not playing victim. You're putting that label on me. Rational conversation with you went out the window a while ago. I'm not sure you're capable of such with someone you disagree with.

Tenebraes advice to meangry could apply to you as well
 
Amazing how a simple request resulted in so many different levels of misogyny.
Gotta wonder how much worse it'd be if they'd asked for something difficult.
 
chicago said:
I'm not playing victim. You're putting that label on me. Rational conversation with you went out the window a while ago. I'm not sure you're capable of such with someone you disagree with.

Tenebraes advice to meangry could apply to you as well
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You apparently just can't stop playing victim and accusing people of exactly what you do, while crying foul when it gets kicked back at you. That shows me you're genuinely not interested in a genuine discussion. This thread was DOA from the start, and was just a way for you to lecture and talk condescendingly to anyone who dared disagreed with you.
 
silverstar said:
crying
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29f9u15.jpg
 
At this point and given the turn this "discussion" has taken, I would like to make a statement.

I do not agree with Chicago. I don't think we should stop calling grown women girls. I still think it was a silly injunction from the get-go.

However, that does not mean I approve in any way the vicious way in which she (and a few others who defend the same position) has been attacked on a personal level. It really weakens the argument. Whatever point you're trying to make, it is not worth sinking that low.

Funny, I am one to think that if Chicago had written "stop calling me a girl; I'm a grown woman" she'd have gotten nothing but expressions of sympathy. I know I'd have written one. What I disagree with is the notion of offense, and the idea that all people should conform to that view. The fact that Chicago finds something offensive shouldn't be the cause for anyone to change the way they interact with others.

That's been my opinion from the start, and it hasn't varied or changed in any way. But I want to make clear that although I disagree with her, along with a number of people (yes, meangry, they are people) on this thread, I do not want to be associated in any way with the gross methods some have been using to defend their viewpoint.
 
Tenebrae said:
At this point and given the turn this "discussion" has taken, I would like to make a statement.

I do not agree with Chicago. I don't think we should stop calling grown women girls. I still think it was a silly injunction from the get-go.

However, that does not mean I approve in any way the vicious way in which she (and a few others who defend the same position) has been attacked on a personal level. It really weakens the argument. Whatever point you're trying to make, it is not worth sinking that low.

Funny, I am one to think that if Chicago had written "stop calling me a girl; I'm a grown woman" she'd have gotten nothing but expressions of sympathy. I know I'd have written one. What I disagree with is the notion of offense, and the idea that all people should conform to that view. The fact that Chicago finds something offensive shouldn't be the cause for anyone to change the way they interact with others.

That's been my opinion from the start, and it hasn't varied or changed in any way. But I want to make clear that although I disagree with her, along with a number of people (yes, meangry, they are people) on this thread, I do not want to be associated in any way with the gross way some have been using to defend their viewpoint.
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Fair enough. My intention was more a discussion on language versus offense or victimhood. I really don't think people should give a shit what offends me personally unless they're a close friend or something. At any rate, I have learned quite a bit from this thread tho, so I'm grateful for that
 
Tenebrae said:
At this point and given the turn this "discussion" has taken, I would like to make a statement.

I do not agree with Chicago. I don't think we should stop calling grown women girls. I still think it was a silly injunction from the get-go.

However, that does not mean I approve in any way the vicious way in which she (and a few others who defend the same position) has been attacked on a personal level. It really weakens the argument. Whatever point you're trying to make, it is not worth sinking that low.

Funny, I am one to think that if Chicago had written "stop calling me a girl; I'm a grown woman" she'd have gotten nothing but expressions of sympathy. I know I'd have written one. What I disagree with is the notion of offense, and the idea that all people should conform to that view. The fact that Chicago finds something offensive shouldn't be the cause for anyone to change the way they interact with others.

That's been my opinion from the start, and it hasn't varied or changed in any way. But I want to make clear that although I disagree with her, along with a number of people (yes, meangry, they are people) on this thread, I do not want to be associated in any way with the gross way some have been using to defend their viewpoint.
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These are my sentiments as well.

However, I'm not for the condescension that many of these people have laid on others who dare disagree with them on the topic, while at the same time preaching tolerance and respect of others. Condescension to me is just as much of a personal attack because it's a tongue in cheek way of attempting to paint someone as being beneath you in intelligence, status, etc. Usually the former.

As you mentioned, if she, or any female, wants to be addressed as a woman for this reason or that reason, that's perfectly fine by me. However, I'm not an advocate of one attempting to speak for an entire gender, as if the word "girl" is now somehow toxic, and that anyone who refers to an adult female as a "girl" in conversation is now some sort of dickhead and to be brought to their knees and punished. For gals of any age, I have never for instance heard of a "women's night out." I don't think most people call an adult female "girl" out of malice, or are using it as a way to be condescending. Many times, I feel it's the context in which it's used, not the word itself.

What I disagree with is like you said, the notion that all people need to start changing their behavior and the speech that they use, and conform to someone else's way of thinking.
 
silverstar said:
These are my sentiments as well.

However, I'm not for the condescension that many of these people lay on others who dare disagree with them on the topic, while at the same time preaching tolerance and respect to others. Condescension to me is just as much of a personal attack, because it's a tongue in cheek way of attempting to paint someone as being beneath you in intelligence, status, etc.

As you mentioned, if she wants to be addressed as a woman for this reason or that reason, that's perfectly fine by me. However, I'm not an advocate of attempting to speak for an entire gender as if the word "girl" is now somehow toxic, and that anyone who calls an adult female "girl" is now some sort of dickhead. For gals of any age, I have never for instance heard of a "women's night out." Many times, I can guarantee you nobody is calling an adult female "girl" out of condescension.

What I disagree with is like you said, the notion that all people need to start changing their behavior and the speech that they use, and conform to someone else's way of thinking.
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Tenebrae called me a girl out of condescension on the first page along with at least one or two others. But if I say that as a way to disagree with your statement, I'm a victim.

If I appeared condescending, it may be that I was trying to simplify my language as I felt I was being completely misunderstood when I read paraphrases of my words that seemed to be opposite of what I was trying to say.

So let me apologize for that. Clearly you're not stupid.

My issue is in general, people referring to clearly grown women that they don't know as "girls". I think it perpetuates a societal implied inferiority towards women. Understandably, there are many who don't care at all about this topic. I find it interesting.
 
chicago said:
To be fair, her original post included no links.



Not even any elaboration aside from her claim of one of the definitions being "a woman of any age."

To which she had to clarify days later with a link that not everyone can see, which ultimately makes her point meaningless, and a different definition than that which she put quotes around, implying it was something verbatim.

Thus, she purposefully paraphrased a definition which may or may not be accurate (I would imagine someone trying to support their point wouldn't choose an inconvenient and inaccessible website as their source) in order to make her seem more correct. A stance which ultimately deteriorated when pressed to elucidate.
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Admittedly, she used quotation marks when she was paraphrasing. The quote she provided later, does back up the main point about differing interpretations of girl, and the fact that it only refers to a young girl in certain contexts - i.e. it can also refer to a woman. She did also provide more information so you people can check but Wolf just implied that she'd left out something specific so as to discredit what she's saying, without giving details of course.

This aside, most people are well aware of the various different interpretations of the word in everyday speech. It shouldn't even require resorting to the dictionary in the first place since plenty of examples usage in relation to adult women have already been given.
 
turtleboy said:
Admittedly, she used quotation marks when she was paraphrasing. The quote she provided later, does back up the main point about differing interpretations of girl, and the fact that it only refers to a young girl in certain contexts - i.e. it can also refer to a woman. She did also provide more information so you people can check but Wolf just implied that she'd left out something specific so as to discredit what she's saying, without giving details of course.

This aside, most people are well aware of the various different interpretations of the word in everyday speech. It shouldn't even require resorting to the dictionary in the first place since plenty of examples usage in relation to adult women have already been given.
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And I'm arguing against that usage as is the topic of this thread.
 
chicago said:
Tenebrae called me a girl out of condescension on the first page along with at least one or two others. But if I say that as a way to disagree with your statement, I'm a victim.

If I appeared condescending, it may be that I was trying to simplify my language as I felt I was being completely misunderstood when I read paraphrases of my words that seemed to be opposite of what I was trying to say.

So let me apologize for that. Clearly you're not stupid.

My issue is in general, people referring to clearly grown women that they don't know as "girls". I think it perpetuates a societal implied inferiority towards women. Understandably, there are many who don't care at all about this topic. I find it interesting.
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No problem.

And I can see what you mean. I agree it is more, proper, I suppose the word would be for lack of a better one, to refer to an adult female as a woman. "A 38-year old woman" for instance. While on the same token, you wouldn't say a "15-year old woman." I can't fully agree though that the word itself carries negative connotations. I think it's more in just the context that it's used, and depends on the individual whether they mind it or not. I don't think it's something that's pervasive.

The best analogy I can think of is just because you have a spill of pickles on aisle four, doesn't mean the entire grocery store needs to be burned down. Western society as a whole I feel has come an extremely long way in making vast strides to correct many of these injustices such as gender inequality, racism, homophobia, etc. Are we perfect as a society and where we should be? Not at all, because humans are fallible. But when these acts of malfeasance do happen, they should be dealt with and taken care of as an individual case and I feel for the most part, are. I don't feel they are evidence of a society that is just totally consumed by racism, misogyny, homophobia, Islamaphobia, etc.

Just my sentiments on the matter. :)

turtleboy said:
I have to say that I agree with everything you said in your post, but this in particular, is a point that I've tried (unsuccessfully) to make several times over. I wish people didn't try and re-frame every legitimate objection with accusations of closet sexism/mysogyny etc
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Yes. Doing this I feel is more indicative of someone who isn't interested in having a rational discussion on the matter, but is more interested in attacking his or her political enemies.
 
Tenebrae said:
Funny, I am one to think that if Chicago had written "stop calling me a girl; I'm a grown woman" she'd have gotten nothing but expressions of sympathy.
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I have to say that I agree with everything you said in your post, but this in particular, is a point that I've tried (unsuccessfully) to make several times over. I wish people didn't try and re-frame every legitimate objection with accusations of closet sexism/mysogyny etc
 
turtleboy said:
I have to say that I agree with everything you said in your post, but this in particular, is a point that I've tried (unsuccessfully) to make several times over. I wish people didn't try and re-frame every legitimate objection with accusations of closet sexism/mysogyny etc
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Who said it was closeted?
 
chicago said:
And I'm arguing against that usage as is the topic of this thread.
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I'm aware.

The point being, you already know that the word has many different uses in everyday speech. Thus resorting to the dictionary to try and find evidence of the meanings that you don't like being applied to yourself (i.e. a child) seems like kind of a pointless exercise. Meanings of words evolve and change over time, so there will inevitably be different meanings in the dictionary. The fact that 'girl' has the same meaning as 'woman' in some contexts, whilst meaning 'female child' in others is surely self-evident.
 
turtleboy said:
I have to say that I agree with everything you said in your post, but this in particular, is a point that I've tried (unsuccessfully) to make several times over. I wish people didn't try and re-frame every legitimate objection with accusations of closet sexism/mysogyny etc
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Don’t underestimate the fact that people never want to be told what to say or not say. It’s why this thread got so testy in the first place.
 
turtleboy said:
I have to say that I agree with everything you said in your post, but this in particular, is a point that I've tried (unsuccessfully) to make several times over. I wish people didn't try and re-frame every legitimate objection with accusations of closet sexism/mysogyny etc
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Shhhh! You're gonna wake up the Wolf again, you fool! :scream: :D

Seriously, though, the discussion seems to be proceeding in a much more civilized manner now~ I'm glad :bubble:
 
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