A really cool analogy

[BrightEyes1082]

I'm going to take a step of faith and post this, because I found it really moving. I really hope this doesn't result in flames or angry replies. If you don't believe in Jesus, this is not a condemnation in any way. It's just a really cool story I received and wanted to share.

Happy reading!
Bright Eyes


There was a certain Professor of Religion named Dr Christianson, a
studious man who taught at a small college in the western United States.
Dr.Christianson taught the required survey course in Christianity at
this particular institution. Every student was required to take this
course his or her freshman year, regardless of his or her major.
Although Dr Christianson tried hard to communicate the essence of the
gospel in his class, he found that most of his students looked upon the
course as nothing but required drudgery. Despite his best efforts,
most students refused to take Christianity seriously.

This year, Dr. Christianson had a special student named Steve. Steve
was only a freshman, but was studying with the intent of going onto
seminary for the ministry. Steve was popular, he was well liked, and he
was an imposing physical specimen. He was now the starting center on the
school football team, and was the best student in the professor's class.

One day, Dr. Christianson asked Steve to stay after class so he could
talk with him. "How many push-ups can you do?"

Steve said, "I do about 200 every night."

"200? That's pretty good, Steve," Dr. Christianson said. "Do you think you could do 300?"

Steve replied, "I don't know.... I've never done 300 at a time."

"Do you think you could?" again asked Dr. Christianson.

"Well, I can try," said Steve.

"Can you do 300 in sets of 10? I have a class project in mind and I need you to do about 300 push-ups in sets of ten for this to work. Can you do it? I need you to tell me you can do it," said the professor.

Steve said, "Well... I think I can...yeah, I can do it"

Dr. Christianson said, "Good! I need you to do this on Friday. Let me
explain what I have in mind."

Friday came and Steve got to class early and sat in the front of the
room. When class started, the professor pulled out a big box of donuts.
No, these weren't the normal kinds of donuts, they were the extra fancy BIG
kind, with cream centers and frosting swirls. Everyone was pretty excited it was Friday, the last class of the day, and they were going to get an early start on the weekend with a party in Dr. Christianson's class.

Dr. Christianson went to the first girl in the first row and asked,
"Cynthia, do you want to have one of these donuts?"

Cynthia said, "Yes."

Dr. Christianson then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve, would you do
ten push-ups so that Cynthia can have a donut?"

"Sure." Steve jumped down from his desk to do a quick ten. Then Steve
again sat in his desk. Dr. Christianson put a donut on Cynthia's desk.

Dr. Christianson then went to Joe, the next person, and asked, "Joe, do
you want a donut?"

Joe said, "Yes." Dr. Christianson asked, "Steve would you do ten
push-! ups so Joe can have a donut?"

Steve did ten push-ups, Joe got a donut. And so it went, down the
first aisle, Steve did ten pushups for every person before they got
their donut.

Walking down the second aisle, Dr. Christianson came to Scott. Scott
was on the basketball team, and in as good condition as Steve. He was
very popular and never lacking for female companionship.

When the professor asked, "Scott do you want a donut?"

Scott's reply was, "Well, can I do my own pushups?"

Dr. Christianson said, "No, Steve has to do them."

Then Scott said, "Well, I don't want one then."

Dr. Christianson shrugged and then turned to Steve and asked, "Steve,
would you do ten pushups so Scott can have a donut he doesn't want?"

With perfect obedience Steve started to do ten pushups.

Scott said, "HEY! I said I didn't want one!"

Dr. Christianson said, "Look, this is my classroom, my class, my desks, and these are my donuts. Just leave it on the desk if you don't want it." And he put a donut on Scott's desk.

Now by this time, Steve had begun to slow down a little. He just stayed on the floor between sets because it took too much effort to be getting up and down. You could start to see a little perspiration coming out around his brow.

Dr. Christianson started down the third row. Now the students were
beginning to get a little angry. Dr.Christianson asked Jenny. "Jenny,
do you want a donut?"

Sternly, Jenny said, "No."

Then Dr. Christianson asked Steve, "Steve, would you do ten more
push-ups so Jenny can have a donut that she doesn't want?"

Steve did ten....Jenny got a donut.

By now, a growing sense of uneasiness filled the room. The students
were beginning to say "No" and there were all these uneaten donuts on the
desks.

Steve also had to really put forth a lot of extra effort to get these
pushups done! for each donut. There began to be a small pool of sweat
on the floor beneath his face, his arms and brow were beginning to get red
because of the physical effort involved.

Dr. Christianson asked Robert, who was the most vocal unbeliever in the
class, to watch Steve do each push up to make sure he did the full ten
pushups in a set because he couldn't bear to watch all of Steve's work
for all of those uneaten donuts. He sent Robert over to where Steve
was so Robert could count the set and watch Steve closely.

Dr. Christianson started down the fourth row. During his class, however, some students from other classes had wandered in and sat down on
the steps along the radiators that ran down the sides of the room. When
the professor realized this, he did a quick count and saw that now there
were 34 students in the room. He started to worry if Steve would be
able to make it.

Dr. Christianson went on to the next person and the next and the next.
Near the end of that row, Steve was really having a rough time. He was
taking a lot more time to complete each set.

Steve asked Dr Christianson, "Do I have to make my nose touch on each
one?"

Dr. Christianson thought for a moment, "Well, they're your pushups. You
are in charge now. You can do them any way that you want." And Dr.
Christianson went on.

A few moments later, Jason, a recent transfer student, came to the room
and was about to come in when all the students yelled in one voice,
"NO! Don't come in! Stay out!"

Jason didn't know what was going on. Steve picked up his head and
said, "No, let him come."

Professor Christianson said, "You realize that if Jason comes in you
will have to do ten pushups for him?"

Steve said, "Yes, let him come in. Give him a donut"

Dr. Christianson said, "Okay, Steve, I'll let you get Jason's out of the
way right now. Jason, do you want a donut?"

Jason, new to the room, hardly knew what was going on. "Yes," he said,
"give me a donut."

"Steve, will you do ten push-ups so that Jason can have a donut?"

Steve did ten pushups very slowly and with great effort. Jason,
bewildered, was handed a donut and sat down.

Dr. Christianson finished the fourth row, and then started on those
visitors seated by the heaters. Steve's arms were now shaking with each
push-up in a struggle to lift himself against the force of gravity. By
this time sweat was profusely dropping off of his face, there was no sound except his heavy breathing; there was not a dry eye in the room.

The very last two students in the room were two young women, both
cheerleaders, and very popular. Dr. Christianson went to Linda, the
second to last, and asked, "Linda, do you want a doughnut?"

Linda said, very sadly, "No, thank you."

Professor Christianson quietly asked, "Steve, would you do ten push-ups
so that Linda can have a donut she doesn't want?"

Grunting from the effort, Steve did ten very slow pushups for Linda.

Then Dr Christianson turned to the last girl, Susan. "Susan, do you
want a donut?

Susan, with tears flowing down her face, began to cry. "Dr.
Christianson, why can't I help him?"

Dr. Christianson, with tears of his own, said, "No, Steve has to do it
alone, I have given him this task and he is in charge of seeing that
everyone has an opportunity for a donut whether they want it or not.
When I decided to have a party this last day of class, I looked at my
grade book. Steve here is the only student with a perfect grade. Everyone
else has failed a test, skipped class, or offered me inferior work. Steve
told me that in football practice, when a player messes up he must do
push-ups. I told Steve that none of you could come to my party unless
he paid the price by doing your push ups. He and I made a deal for your
sakes."

Steve, would you do ten push-ups so Susan can have a donut?"

As Steve very slowly finished his last pushup, with the understanding
that he had accomplished all that was required of him, having done 350
pushups, his arms buckled beneath him and he fell to the floor.

Dr. Christianson turned to the room and said. "And so it was, that our
Savior, Jesus Christ, on the cross, plead to the Father, 'into thy hands I commend my spirit.' With the understanding that He had done
everything that was required of Him, He yielded up His life. And like some
of those in this room, many of us leave the gift on the desk, uneaten."

Two students helped Steve up off the floor and to a seat, physically
exhausted, but wearing a thin smile.

"Well done, good and faithful servant," said the professor, adding "Not
all sermons are preached in words."

Turning to his class, the professor said, "My wish is that you might
understand and fully comprehend all the riches of grace and mercy that
have been given to you through the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ. He spared not only His Begotten Son, but gave Him up for us
all, for the whole Church, now and forever. Whether or not we choose to accept His gift to us, the price has been paid."

"Wouldn't you be foolish and ungrateful to leave it lying on the desk?"

 

[Knox The Hatter]

This might get moved to the P&R forum...

...nevertheless, I liked this. It was presented very well.

 

[drew70]

That was....awesome! Thanks for sharing this!

 

[Mastertank1]

I'd have refused to participate.

The moment Steve did pushups for someone who turned down the doughnut, I'd have left the room, and tried to persuade as many others as possible to go with me.

I'd have gone straight to the school administration, and complained that a teacher was using a required course to proselytize to a captive audience, and that seeking converts was not his job, which was merely to insure that the students knew what Christianity is and was, not to make them dutiful churchgoers!

If they failed to discipline the teacher, I'd have done something to interfere with any government funding they recieved, because that kind of activity is prohibited in any educational institution that recieves government financial support.

If someone chooses to pay for something I neither need, nor want, and will utterly refuse to accept, that is not my problem; that's their problem. If the price they paid was a high one, again it's their problem.

I was never asked if I wanted him to suffer for me. If asked, I'd have said no. So would most people; that's probably why he never asked. His willful act of self immolation imposes no obligation or burden on me, and I will not be manipulated by an action clearly intended to impose feelings of guilt on large numbers of people who have done nothing to feel guilty about.

Here's an analogy; some guy you never met buttonholes you at work, and informs you that he loves you so deeply that his life will be reduced to abject misery and utter despair unless you reciprocate and become his significant other. Even if you believe that he is sincere, does that obligate you to love him back? Does it impose a duty to become his lover?

I'm not talking about telling them soothing lies to escape the immediate situation, I'm talking about DO YOU HAVE TO LOVE THEM BACK? The answer is of course not! If you advise them to seek professional counseling before you run screaming, you've gone beyond any reasonable requirement!

I would have found that teacher's actions deeply and mortally offensive, and would have made every effort to disrupt the demonstration.

As for Steve, I'd have tried to get him psychiatric help. He needed it. Badly. He has a deathwish level martyr complex.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.

 

[hivoltage]

Ah yes, Heaven is a gift for those who worship at Kristian Kreme instead of Dunkin' Muslims or the Hindu / Buddhist Donut shop.

You lucky, lucky Christians. How foolish those billions of Asians and North Africans are to be born in countries where Dunkin' Muslims or the Hindu / Buddhist Donut shop is where everyone goes. Where "free will" to be a Christian means a fundamental break with your family and community, unlike in the U. S. where Kristian Kremes are EVERYWHERE.

If I was God I would send those who choose the wrong Donut store to Hell too. For eternity.

 

[isabeau]

i hate donuts.... but wonderful analogy.... thanks for it.

isabeau

 

[BrightEyes1082]

Thanks to those of you who truly read it, and to anyone who read it, didn't like it, but chose to keep the harsh and ugly words to themselves.

Like I said in the original post, I didn't post this to "offend" or chastise anyone. I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't chastise Christians. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you. I just thought this was a great analogy. I'm glad there were a few who could relate.

BE

 

[steph]

My family is from Sicily so of course I was raised Roman Catholic. These days, I consider myself more spiritual than religious. I never attend Church anymore unless for wedding/funeral/being Godmother to my friends' kids~Catholicism and especially the Church, IMHO, have failed to change with the times. I, for example, beleive in birth control. But~I did find this a really interesting read~thanks for sharing it with us.

XOXO

 

[Mastertank1]

Why is all disagreement 'ugly' to you?

Thanks to those of you who truly read it, and to anyone who read it, didn't like it, but chose to keep the harsh and ugly words to themselves.

Like I said in the original post, I didn't post this to "offend" or chastise anyone. I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't chastise Christians. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you. I just thought this was a great analogy. I'm glad there were a few who could relate.

BE

I was not chastising Christians; I was disagreeing vehemently with anyone, of any rekigion, sect or cult, who tries to ram their beliefs down the throats of others who don't share them.

I'm not saying you were doing that; I'm saying that the teacher in your story was doing that, and that 'Steve' was his willing accomplice. I'm also saying that by doing so he was stepping way, way outside the boundaries of proper conduct for an educator, and that neither he nor 'Steve' should be admired for what they did.

'Steve' should have been required to attend counseling, and the teacher should have been disciplined.

Mastertank1

We who play and dance are thought mad by they who hear no music.

 

[hivoltage]

Thanks to those of you who truly read it, and to anyone who read it, didn't like it, but chose to keep the harsh and ugly words to themselves.

Like I said in the original post, I didn't post this to "offend" or chastise anyone. I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't chastise Christians. I'm not forcing my beliefs on you. I just thought this was a great analogy. I'm glad there were a few who could relate.

BE

The moral of your analogy: Those who choose not to eat the Christian Donut, no matter how decent a human being they may be, is eternally damned. See Mark 16:16 for one of many Biblical references.

This is a discussion forum, and I strongly disagree with the premise that Heaven is for believers in Christianity (or any other religion) over being a decent human being.

We apparently have differing views on what "ugliness" is. Believing that the religion of your country / community / family is the one true religion is ugly.

But we can agree to disagree on that point.

 

[RobAce]

Not to be Mr. Uppity here...but wasnt there a problem with a certain person going into a thread that he didnt agree with and posting remarks others found to be wrong and demeaning to the original thread?

We all need to give the same level of respect whether we agree with the subject matter or not. There are many threads I read daily I could really have a good ol time blasting, belittling or just being a nuisance about, but instead I choose to not say to anything.

As for the post itself I found it intriguing...I not being a very religious person myself cant fully understand the full impact of something like this, but Im sure there will be those moved by it.

The only other thing I noticed is that this was a course on religion and the only schools Im aware of that require a course like this are christian colleges so there would be no need for any discplinary action against the teacher.

But I think this was just meerly meant as "inspirational words" rather than to illict a discussion, that way this post doesnt get moved to the P&R. If anyone would like to argue the message, lets take it to the P&R and let Brighteye's post satnd for what they meant it to be. A message. Not a lecture.

Rob

 

[sole seeker]

A terrific post! Great analogy too. Really teared me up.

Some folks can't recognize a gift of love. It's not their fault. They just don't have that capacity.

Thanks, Brighteyes.

 

[tickledorange]

'ey, go fight in your own damn forum:

http://www.ticklingforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=150

Either way, I thought it was neat. I thought the whole "pushups for donuts" thing was a little wierd, though, but I get it.

 

[Redmage]

Well, the analogy points to the Doctrine of Sacrificial Atonement, which I've always found to be a bit foolish theologically. But as analogies to bad theology go, it's pretty good.

My personal favorite Christian analogy was credited to the 12th century mystic Hildegard of Bingen, though I can't confirm that she actually said it. I like it because it speaks to the nature of prayer in any faith.

When you first begin to pray, she said, it's as though you have to walk a mile to a stream for water and carry the buckets back on your shoulders. You keep at diligently, though, and through daily practince eventually you dig a well for yourself, and you can haul the water up much more easily.

And then, she said, if you continue in your practice, one day it rains.

 

[BrightEyes1082]

Robace, Sole, and Heels, many thanks for your kind words. I'm glad a few were able to see the true meaning and enjoy it.

BE

 

[Mastertank1]

Even if one were

a Christian, which I'm not, I can't imagine any intelligent person not being disturbed by the doctrine of salvation through faith alone, with good works considered totally irrelevant.

If one can be saved by faith without good works, and one can NOT be saved by good works without faith, then good behavior has no reward for anyone, believer or not, and bad behavior has no penalty, as long as one is a believer.
Sounds like a strong DIS-incentive to good behavior, and an even stronger incentive to become a hypocrite.

I mean, look at it practically;
Live a life of sin and depravity until you're on your deathbed, then repent and accept Jesus as your savior and go to heaven?

Live a life of altruism and self-abnegation, always doing everything for others, never anything for your own benefit, suffer and strive and commit no sins ever in life, then die, and if you have not accepted Jesus as your savior, go to hell for eternity?

Oh, yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense.

As for fight on your own forum; when I see something that needs to be challenged and fought, I won't let the fact that it was placed on the wrong forum in hope of gaining immunity stop me. I invite the mods to move this thread to P&R where it belonged from the beginning!

Even looking at the story as a pure analogy, it has lots and lots of holes in it.
Salvation is not a donut.

If salvation is truly what Christians say it is, there can be no legitimate reason to turn it down when offered, unless one is an unregenerate individualist who balks at accepting anything of value that they haven't earned. Like me.

There can be any number of perfectly legitimate reasons for a person to not want a donut.
They may be on a diet.
They may be diabetic.
They may be a recovering sugar addict.
They may be hypoglycemic.
They may have just eaten and be full.
They may have an allergy to something in the donuts.
(Example; Many donut shops use a mixture of vegetable oils which include peanut oil. Even the most miniscule trace of such oil will send a person with a severe peanut allergy into life-threatening anaphylactic shock.)

The situation that teacher created was designed to leave anyone who refused to accept feeling guilty and ungrateful. Worse, it made them appear guilty and ungrateful to a classroom full of their peers. Kids that age are extremely vulnerable to that kind of pressure, and for a teacher to engineer such a situation is unconscionable. The parents of the students ought to have sued him.

So, considered ONLY as an analogy, the analogy stinks.
Considered as to the teacher's purpose in presenting the analogy, it's even worse. Go back and read the original post; his intent was to use guilt and shame to manipulate students who were unenthusiastic about his subject matter into becoming more pious.

I find that objectionable, no matter how common the practice is (and it most certainly is) in the many variants of Christianity.

No emoticons, no signature image or quote. This post is not light hearted. The subject is too serious for that.

Mitch Geller
aka Mastertank1

 

[BrightEyes1082]

I disagree. The analogy is designed to show what Jesus did. He died for our sins, even if we never accept his gift, he still gave it. The guy who wanted to do his own push-ups shows how people try to get into Heaven based on their good works. If we could get into Heaven on our own good works, nobody would need Jesus. But we all fall short. Even the most wonderful people who do all the good works there are to do still fall short of God's glory. If you didn't like that analogy, how about this:

I'm standing next to an Olympic long-jumper at the Grand Canyon. How many feet wide is the Grand Canyon? I don't know, but for simplicity's sake let's just say 1,000. I can jump maybe 4 feet. If I try to jump across the Grand Canyon, I'm going to fall to a very rocky death. But the Olympic Jumper, perhaps he just won a gold medal, can jump 24 feet. Even though he can jump 6 times farther than I can, he's still going to fall to a rocky death too. Does that make sense?

My gift as a Christian is not evangelism. I'm not very good at sharing my faith with others. It just turns into an argument. I'm not here to argue. I just made a post that I found interesting. If you didn't like it, that's perfectly fine, you could have ignored it. People post demeaning things about Christianity all the time on the P&R forum, and I don't argue with them.

Anyway, that's the last I have to say on this here. If you really want to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me.

Happy weekend, everyone, almost.

BE

 

[MrMacphisto]

This was a good analogy, albeit rather predictable.

I like the inclusion of "Jason," because it seems to accurately portray the confusion and utter alienation that many people experience in Third World countries when missionaries come to their country and speak of "the good book." Don't get me wrong, humanitarian work is admirable, but I wouldn't do it for the sake of spreading ideology or religion. People have their own cultures, of which I consider their own business, not mine.

Whatever the case, I'll have a donut as well. Even if there is a God and the traditional interpretation of Christianity is correct, I can continue onward as an agnostic without any moral concerns. After all, it wasn't me that struck this "deal" of Christ's. Any sins to be sacrificed for are ultimately God's fault, if indeed, he made us and knows what the future holds. Some of us were literally born to be damned, if you think about the nature of omniscience and omnipotence in combination.

 

[hivoltage]

Well explained, mastertank1 and mrmacphisto.

Those who live in Christian countries are particularly unable to see the intolerant and offensive nature of the "one true religion" concept, especially when their core beliefs are presented in a "tearjerker" story format.

But they usually know intolerant Muslims when they see them.

Putting the message that "Christianity is the one true faith" and therefore Muslims / Hindus / Jews / Buddhists / Atheists are subject to automatic damnation in the General Discussion forum does not exempt it from disagreement.

The idea that my remarks should have been censored or self-censored is preposterous and disturbing.

Sorry, true believers, but sometimes you're gonna hear a view much different from the one you grew up with (or hear in Church now).

 

[MrMacphisto]

The mentioning of Islam demonstrates an interesting parallel. If you want to get a vague idea of how Christianity used to operate in much of the Middle Ages, look at Islam in the Middle East today. There is a lot of dogma and even fanaticism to the point of murderous behavior in the name of Allah. Thankfully, most American Christians are far more tolerant than Third World Muslims, but the trend remains clear: First World nations are usually more culturally peaceful and adaptive through being more secular.

The average Christian in America is religious but not fanatically so. This is a good thing. The analogy mentioned in this thread is one of love, which is also a good thing. The logic might be somewhat flawed, but at least this is a start.

Granted, another aspect of what makes the First World a more adaptive and desirable place to live is tolerance. This is something that religious people, secularists, and people like myself often struggle with. I admit that the tone of my previous post isn't exactly tolerant, but I've been trying to find a less offensive way of debating the logic behind religious belief. It's not easy....

BTW, thanks hivoltage...

 

[RobAce]

Again, Im glad this hasnt been put into the P&R because that was not the intent of the original poster. I ask Jeff, Mimi, Myraids, and all the Mods to please leave this thread be unless the thread originator wants it moved.

I mean again I have to mention when a few months ago when there was a thread here about DOM/SUB relationships and when people against it came on to that thread and complained and belittled the SUB/DOM lifestyle many people on this thread that are comming on here complaining about this thread are the very same ones telling those in the DOM/SUB thread to go away and that they were being "Trolls"

People take your own advice.....geesh. If you dont agree with a message or appreciate a post for what it is....then take the advice some of you gave to someone else, and dont post in it.
I really like everyone on this forum and things had calmed down, lets NOT go back to the attitudes of a month or so ago.

Let brighteyes have their post as they intend it and if you want to argue about this post.....lets take it to the P&R, as a matter of fact Im going to do that right now, and lets let this thread remain the gift of a kind word or story from one human to another as it was originally intended.

Rob

 

[isabeau]

i was just about to say something along those lines, Rob.. but not as eloquently as you.. if people wish to argue about the religious aspects of this thread.. start another one in the p&r thread..

i think the idea is beautiful.. i liked that analogy very much..

isabeau

 

[RobAce]

Thanks Izzy!!

I try to see things from both sides on everything. And can appreciate something for what it is not what it can be interpeted as.
Not that interpeting is a bad thing.

Rob

 

[hivoltage]

Fair enough.

I certainly agree with the bulk of the message of Christianity - "Do unto others", "turn the other cheek", be charitable, don't bear false witness, etc.

But the analogy in this thread was not about those things, and that is where I decided to voice disagreement, even though I knew that it would raise some hackles.

No more to say on the subject.

 

[Mastertank1]

Sorry Robace, but

Again, Im glad this hasnt been put into the P&R because that was not the intent of the original poster. I ask Jeff, Mimi, Myraids, and all the Mods to please leave this thread be unless the thread originator wants it moved.

I mean again I have to mention when a few months ago when there was a thread here about DOM/SUB relationships and when people against it came on to that thread and complained and belittled the SUB/DOM lifestyle many people on this thread that are comming on here complaining about this thread are the very same ones telling those in the DOM/SUB thread to go away and that they were being "Trolls"

People take your own advice.....geesh. If you dont agree with a message or appreciate a post for what it is....then take the advice some of you gave to someone else, and dont post in it.
I really like everyone on this forum and things had calmed down, lets NOT go back to the attitudes of a month or so ago.

Let brighteyes have their post as they intend it and if you want to argue about this post.....lets take it to the P&R, as a matter of fact Im going to do that right now, and lets let this thread remain the gift of a kind word or story from one human to another as it was originally intended.

Rob

That fact that something so pernicious and potentially evil comes disguised as something so benign makes it all the more needful to call it what it is and openly oppose it.

See you on the P&R. But, if there are more misguided posts here, I'll continue to counter post here too if any of them need countering.

I actually believe that I have a duty to oppose this kind of thinking. It is destructive of human freedom and dignity, and profoundly anti-human.

Mitch Geller
aka Mastertank1