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Arabs in America

A Brit perspective

I have to agree with those in this thread who are against blowing holes in the desert ( and anyone carrying the koran) thats the kind of jackass response they are after, I think you intellegence guys and army guys can learn a lot from the Northern ireland situation. We have been putting up with appalling acts of this kind for a long time in the UK (the scale is not the same of course but the principle holds true) and the jackass responce would be to invade the place or nuke it which we could very easily do ,but the politicall and humanitarian considerations are overriding in the 21st century thankfully.We have of course been taking action against the IRA and it has taken 30 years to get them to the negotiating table and that is in large part due to sucsessfull under cover intelligence work which was striking at the heart of their organisation ( soory to dissapoint you all, it had bugger all to do with clinton!) so i hope and trust that the UK government will back you guys all the way and I hope that you get the right people and only the right people.just a final thought, moderate muslims are of course against this dreadfull act and have said so but I want to hear it loud and often and they should realise that they are key to getting these nutters, its no use sending a CIA guys in dark shades chewing gum, they the muslims hold they key to victory over these scum.
 
red indian--

You make a crucial point. Until the Arab and Moslem worlds come down passionatly and unequivocally against terror conducted in the name of Islam it will be much harder to eradicate it. If we can bring the RELIGIOUS power of Islam into play against these dark forces, the chance of success are much greater. Let's hear from the so-called moderate Islamic states and let's see some real action on their parts.

ddd
 
Red indian,

your govenment has not been working 30 years to get the IRA to the table , but rather for over 300 years to take their land.
 
can of worms

Well if you want to go down that road TB there is an obvious answer and the clue is in my name.
 
Fellow Americans. For the first time in my life I am truly proud to be an American. It is at this time that we have focused ourselves together for the greater good of our nation. We are breaking through political descrepencies and personal, racial, gender, and religious differences. I pray that we find ourselves through this. May God guide every decision we make.
 
Right you are Red Indian,

Someday i'll share my manifesto solution. But not now and not here.. but you point in mentioning it is legitamate
 
Elephant Trap!

You fell right in to that one TB! but you raise a good point about the broader issues of this tragedy, how far back do you go in history to find the "real" cause of these shamefull acts? and of course one mans terrorist is another mans "freedom fighter" the palestinians of course feel their land was "taken" from them by U.S. backed israel and the IRA carry out their atrosities on innocent civilians with millions of pounds collected in the U.S. You talk of taking land? let me just add this "They made us promises, more than I can remember, but they kept but one; they promised to take our land, and they took it" Red Cloud.
 
History lesson...

The landscape is indeed littered with guilt in all directions, but we should at least try to make the distinction between the processes of assimilation that displaced the American Indian (still not right, but inevitable) and the blatant evil acts foisted upon the world in the name of a Holy Cause. The cultures of many of the Native American tribes still exist, and their influence upon our present day society has been in evidence for generations. I feel fortunate to count Cherokee in my heritage, and am sure that their part in the mosaic we call the USA is secure and profound. May the ancestors of those brave, proud warriors who lived harmoniously with nature be with us in this time of peril. You have a good point about "freedom fighters" , red indian, and I'll be happy to discuss it further, but at present it's time to finish our sad search through the rubble and begin to seek the justice that our country craves so badly. Forgive the sour attitude, my company just finished cleaning the gear of 22 Fire Departments, and unless you have a strong stomach, I'd never describe what came off them to you.....we'll clean the other 50+ departments when this mess is over, and I intend to tear up the bill and make it my contribution to the effort. Q
 
well said

you make some very good points q and thanks for your response, but make no mistake, I am 100 percent behind the u.s. on this, as is well documented else where on this site. i do not pretend to have any of the answers to these questions but i had to respond to TB,s interesting point.
 
I AM CANADIAN

I am a Canadian. I come from a country that has pryded itself on it's muticulturalizem. We (hitoricaly) aided slaves in excapping to the freedome of the north, granted Jews equil rights as sitzens, with out human rights activest breathing down our necks. We were in World War II wen the first shots were fired. We will stand by our brothers to the south against the comon foe of Terrorisim. That is the enamy here my friends. Not Muslums, or any other group of people. It is the actions of some people who we are battling, don't hate an entire race of people simply because a group of terrorists are of the same culture. Thenaveltickler, you are praposing to violate the very rights that this war is going to be fought to for. Maybe we should watch you and make sure you don't blow up any churches or building consisting of Arahbs. remember Arahbs died working in the World Trade Center that were just making a buck, every one must remeber what our two nation represent, THE NEW WORLD. New hope, New lives, and New oprotunities for some who would have none at all. Thank you for reading.
 
Red Indian- i agree you have a legitamate point but must remind you that i promised at a later time i will unviel my manifesto which will make your "how far back should we go" question" irrelavant.

SlaverTickler- lets not forget the enmemy here. It was not the IRA, it was not the Chechans, it was not the chiapas....

It was ARAB terroists... please don't be like all the wimpy politically correct liberal new casters who refuse to admitt the obviuos... (You can be honest in here- you are anonymous and won't loose your job for being so) these terroists were ARAB... ARAB TERRORIEts GET IT.?????


Yes they were individuals.. but they were ARAB individuals... Lets not forget that they were ARABS.

FACT... FACE IT
 
All,

Just a reminder, due to the unusual and stressful times we are all experiencing, I (we Mods) urge you to take careful consideration in the words and tone used in posts BEFORE hitting the "Submit Reply" button.

We are all undergoing some measurement of grief, anger and irritation, however we must try to keep it in check as best we can.

Some recent posts come across antagonistical and are instigating an argument that is bound to turn into an all out flame war. Let's avoid this route and refrain from picking any fights and/or making tasteless/senseless remarks.

Let's be strong and get through this difficult time...

ps
It's never too late to edit your own posts! (not just in this thread but in any others as well!)
 
Ethnic Profiling

It's coming. Published accounts of the FBI investigation indicate that the hijackers were terrorist moles who lived in this country for years before the attack. Habib at the 7-11 may have had nothing to do with it, may in fact be appalled, but he's going under the microscope regardless because the terrorists look like him.

It can't be otherwise. The threat is deadly and resources to combat and thwart it are finite. Should we pretend that the next attackers will be Hasidic Jews or Irish Catholics, all for the sake of political correctness?

ACLU and others like them be damned. We can sort this out, and pay compensation if it's warranted, after the war is over.

Strelnikov
 
No....

It can't be that way....we have to face our fears and be brave enough NOT to make the assumption that we can tell who is a "bad" person by sight. I have admitted my own transgression, and I am determined to master these emotions and channel them into something productive. Not to be "politically correct", for that is another way to be cowardly, but to be brave enough to extend our freedom to any that have not violated us personally. We are strong enough to do this Strel, but it isn't going to be simple, for it requires discipline and effort. Take the high road and watch over these people, 99.9% of whom are merely working to better themselves and their families lives. Not easy...not easy at all. I have been coping with anger for many years from a variety of sources, mostly related to family tragedies that seem endless and unfair, so I am aware of the effort it takes to do this.....be a "protector" until it is time to do otherwise, and then be the monster that rages inside us all at times like this. I have a feeling we're not done with the entire business yet...if I were planning this attack, I'd have another set of reserves ready to counter the retaliation that they KNOW is coming. I also feel strongly that when this spider web is untangled, it will lead back to our old nemesis Saddam.....time will tell. Q
 
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Good point about Saddam, Q...I too believe he is ultimately the source of this.

Pray for Kujman.

Pray also for all the families of the deceased.

Tomorrow is Monday. I intend to go to work and do my job just like always. I'm scared, of course, as we all are. But it we allow the terrorists to give in to fear to the point where we are afraid to leave the house, they win. Take appropriate precautions -- but go about your daily routine. Trust in God and he will protect you.
 
Cool down, naveltickler

thanaveltickler, I must sincerely ask you to cool down. Islam is not a 'barbaric' religion at all, it is abused for madmen's political causes just as much as Christianity. No truly believing muslim is part of this terrorism; the ones I know even consider those who committed this hideous crime to belong to Islam's worst enemies. No religion or race can be held responsible as a whole for the deeds of a bunch of dangerous, criminal fanatics.

So please let's stop infighting, and let's concentrate on those who are really responsible. They will be stamped out!!!
 
No matter what happens in the next days, months and years, there will always be a war that, on one crucial level, was worse for the US than any other: the Civil War--brother against brother, friend against friend. I don't even think we can conceive now of how awful this was for the nation.

Please remember this one and all (navel tickler and dark knight) before issuing harsh words and challenges....


ddd
 
Thenaveltickler and DarkKnight original posts have been removed due to flame content.
 
09/11/01

My fellow ticklers,
I, as well as the rest of the country, would like to extend my thoughts of good will and prayers to all who were affected by the heinous events of Tuesday last. I am a natural born American citizen, male, caucasian, 28 yrs. old. I am the grandson of Immigrants from Hungary on my fathers side, and the 5th or 6th generation descendent of Irish and English Immigrants on my mothers. I give you this information so that you will understand that every last one of us has a branch in our family tree that leads from North America to Europe, or Asia, or Africa, or most germanely, the Middle East.
These people are not, "foreigners", or "Ay-rabs", or any other derogatory name that you might lable them with. They are Americans! Perhaps Americans with a different genetic ancestry than most of us, but Americans none the less. We should all be cognizant of the fact that if just one American citizen has their rights violated, we are just that much closer to surrendering to the kind of thought processes that drive the animals who have attacked us.
Some evils are greater than others. Which of us hasn't lied. Or cheated. Or done any of a dozen other trivial evils. But occasionally in the world an evil will arise that is so diabolical, so dastardly, that it requires the unification of all who are civilized, regardless of race, religion, creed,or country. Hitler was one of those evils. International terrorism is another. I would like to thank you for this opportunity to air my thoughts and would like to close with a quote by Winston Churchill
"... we have nothing to give but our blood, toil, sweat, and tears.
Thank You,
sltkl
 
Every dog has its' day. They had theirs, we will have ours. But that the sadness of all this. It will never end. There will always be some pissed off person, faction or country around the world. Terrorism has now become a fact of life for everybody. My own secret fear is that this is the beginning of the end. How far are we willing to go in the name of freedom and democracy? Sure we can wipe out anybody we like, but there will be others. And in our crusade we'll piss of some others and they will be our enemies and so on and so on.... until there is no one.
 
The words of an Afghani-American who hates the Taliban – Part 1

Hey guys,

I'm a many generational American whose roots go back to Ireland and Scotland. But I found these words from an Afghani-American very instructive:


Food for thought for the Militarists
Written by an Afghani in the U.S.

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age." Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My
hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind
that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan.

When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would
exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, uffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the easons
why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

---------------------

End of Afghani-American's thoughts Part 1

MB
 
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Profiling Revisited

I never said, "Let's round them up, load them on flat bed trucks and take them to camps in the desert." We did that once, to our shame.

I never said, "Go firebomb a Lebanese restaurant." Nabeel had nothing to do with the WTC, and furthermore I don't want the Molotov cocktail to land in my lap while I'm eating lunch there.

I never said, "Damn the Constitution." Since 1914, and especially during the Cold War, liberty has nearly bled to death here in the West. We would do well to remember that centralized power is a greater long-term threat to freedom than terrorism.

Here's what I said: The WTC wasn't an IRA or JDL or Baader-Meinhof operation. Middle East types who lived among us committed this atrocity. Since resources aren't infinite, investigative efforts (including greater scrutiny at security checks) should be focused on likely threats. Profiling is a workable and legitimate tool for doing so. Let's hope that it can be used without trampling too heavily on citizen rights, but ACLU and others like them need to realize that public safety is the paramount responsibility of government.

Strelnikov
 
The words of an Afghani-American who hates the Taliban – Part 2

OK, here’s the rest of the thoughts from an Afghani-American: (sorry if this is long guys, but this is a complex issue)

We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age". Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it ready.
Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.

Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks.
Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

In Peace,

Tamim Ansary

--------------

End of thoughts by an Afghani-American.

MB
 
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