Army Vs. Marines

[thx10050]

Here's my personal take, from an Army ROTC Cadet in college who also attended a month of Marine Corps bootcamp for highschool kids between my junior and senior years. Basically, it was a camp that condensed bootcamp into one month.

I don't think that either service is better than the other. It all depends on what YOU want to do as a person and what YOU want to get out of the service that you join. Personally speaking, I really like the Army and I have several choices of Combat Arms that I want to go into, including Armor, Cav, Mech Inf, or Sentry Dogs in MP. I like how the Army works and I don't think that Army is the bunch of slackers that the general consensus seems to be. I've met very sharp Marines and very sharp Army personnel. It depends on the people you work with.

People make the argument that the Marines are closer-knit. That's true, to an extent. As an entire unit, yes, the Marines are very close-knit and have a great deal of comradery going on. I learned about this at boot. However, in many units (Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard) there will be units that are very tight and watch each other's backs. It's all about team, getting along despite your differences, and I'm sure that a lot of Reserve or Active personnel can back me up on that. This is one of the problems I have with ROTC. It doesn't seem about team. There's all these cliques and stupid shit like that going on. No one in a higher rank really gives a shit about you sometimes, it seems, except those that have to. It's like high school all over again and that was really disappointing for my first year. But sophomore year starts soon and we'll see how the battalion works in a new year with new officers. I don't think that some of the cadets get that the Army, for us ROTC cadets, starts NOW, with ROTC. Now, some of you Reserve or Active personnel might think I'm some soon-to-be-butter-bar-LT, and that's true, in that I won't have as much experience as my enlisted men will in terms of the field. But my knowledge is different from their's and I'm trying to learn what enlisted men respect about officers. And don't give me crap about how enlisted men hate their officers, because I've talked to plenty and there are many LTs, Captains, etc, that are respected for certain traits and qualities. I'm trying to learn these now.

Anyway, sorry for my long-winded reply, but in my opinion, not one service is better. Each has its own doctrine, history, background, traditions, etc. Each is different and ALL are needed in the defense of the US.

PS: As to who has the best close-combat styles, well... The Marine Corps' LINE system was utter crap and I hear from some Marines that their new system is only a bit better. If you want what I think is the best 'system' of self-defense and close-combat, ask.

 

[areenactor]

they aren't suposed to hit you any more

but it sure smarts when you get wached with a cleaning rod!
not to mention doing push ups with a drill sgt. standing on your back!
there are ways you can get your lumps these days, but if you get them, believe me, you've earned them! now a-days they just discharge you if you're that big a frig up.
steve

 

[Flatfoot]

ShiningIce: I'm sorry to say that I didn't get to go through the Crucible. That portion of our training was eliminated, because of a hurricane that came through Parris Island, forcing us to evacuate to Albany, Georgia. The best thing I can tell you about the Crucible is that the focus on all elements is teamwork and togetherness. It tries to show you that you need to help each other in order to achieve mission accomplishment. That, plus 3 days of misery with little to no food/sleep and a helluva lot of humping a pack around (about 50 miles roughly, if I remember correctly, broken up, of course.). Oh, yeah, get used to sharing toilets with two other people at once (for pissing, not sh*tting, of course! ). Also, if you're homophobic, get used to being around a whole bunch of dudes naked, because during the first couple weeks, everyone will sh*t, shower, and shave "by the numbers."

thx10050: Line training had its problems. The biggest thing was that every manuever ended in a kill. Nowadays, that doesn't cut it. The new system is a bit better. It mixes elements from Line training with several styles (I can't remember off the top of my head which ones, in particular, but I can look up the order to find out.). What they teach may seem simple and not very impressive, but the key thing to remember is we're not talking about Bruce Lee Kung Fu. We're talking about close combat with a Flak Jacket, LBV, Kevlar helmet, and possibly a pack on. One of the most important things about the new close combat system is that they're trying to standardize it, and make every Marine a martial artist, if only at the basic level. They're also trying to incorporate martial arts proficiency into the promotion system, to make Marines want to do well. Also, like someone had already said (and as I was told by my Drill Instructor.), "Close combat is f*ckin' stupid. You've got a weapon that's capable of effectively killing someone from 500 meters away. If you let them get that close, it's your fault!" Our strong point comes in that every Marine is a rifleman, regardless of what our job is, be it cook, airplane mechanic, or Admin clerk. I can't speak about the other branches, but I've been told by others in the other branches that they don't work that way. Only the "grunt" jobs will get opportunities to handle weapons in depth. Me? I've already said I'm a technician, but I can still kill anyone as efficiently as any grunt.

areenactor: Yeah, some will still try to do what they can get away with (ShiningIce, beware if they ever take off their Drill Instructor belt and offer anyone a free shot! If they're willing to drop the professional image like that, then someone has REALLY f*cked up! Just try your best to do as you're told, quickly and efficiently!) I've been choked with a towel by a Drill Instructor (I shouldn't have had it draped over my shoulders! )! There are Drill Instructors that probably shouldn't be Drill Instructors, but for the most part, all I ever saw was yanking people up by the collar and shakin' 'em up a bit, or giving them a nice, gentle shove in the right direction.

 

[thx10050]

My problem with the LINE system is not that it isn't flashy or cool or that impressive. Believe me, Flatfoot, I may just look like a wet-behind-the-ears college student who wants to be an Army officer to you and others, but I'm well aware of KISS and how simple things can be quite effective. I'm quite aware of my own abilities in close-combat and nothing more on that needs to be said. I actually approved of the way every technique ended with a kill. That's about the only thing about LINE that was good.

My problem with that system is that everything is too choreographed. Look at the LINE book or how similar close-combat techniques are taught. Your opponent must do something first in a specific way so that you can come up with the counter for it. That's complete BS. Close-combat and fights in general are unchoreographed displays of violent and ever-changing chaos. Nothing more. You can't treat your brain like some kind of self-defense dictionary and expect to pull up specific techniques from that dictionary to attack and defend with. Your mind doesn't work that way. You're in close-combat. You don't have time to figure out how best to incapacitate an enemy. Just kill him or her quickly and move on to the next.

Life and death struggles are literally maelstroms of mayhem and confusion. Your ability to maintain awareness of your surroundings, sensitivity to your opponent's movements, maintain balance in potentially unstable terrain, and attack with body unity are the key factors in any life or death confrontation.

That's my take on close-combat and the LINE system. And that's my own opinion. People may not agree and that's perfectly fine. As for a weapon being able to kill someone at 500 meters away, that's great. Unfortunately, our M16A2s are precision weapons. Get 'em in mud and they'll jam like nothing else. I think we should learn a thing or three about the AK. A friend of mine has one and it hasn't been cleaned in over 3 years and it still fires. True, he's gotta jam the bolt in with his foot, but once that's all done, it fires perfectly. And only now are they adapting the new M4s to be able to fire AK rounds. It's a small step, but at least it's in the right direction.

 

[Flatfoot]

You brought up a good point, and I forgot about that. The whole choreographed thing is a major pet peeve of mine, and to be honest, it's still not completely out of the system, yet, although they are making attempts to incorporate the elements of improvisation (I gotta wonder if they'll ever get rid of the choreography, though.), as well as more general counterstrikes. None of us ever wanted to swallow the whole "Okay, your enemy is going to come up and attempt to choke you, like this..." BS. I gotta wonder about a lot of martial arts styles, with the whole choreographed thing. I used to hate that, even when I was in Taekwondo, briefly. As chaotic and unpredictable as combat is, I gotta wonder what WOULD be a good style to use, if any.

Oh, I didn't want to come off like I viewed you as an inexperienced "butter-bar". That wasn't my intention, at all, and you obviously know what you're talking about. I guess I just jumped the gun as to what I thought it was you didn't like about line training. I've just never heard too many people complain about line training, before, except for the martial arts instructors, who have said basically what I said about the whole kill thing. It didn't leave any chance to apprehend someone you needed ALIVE.

Yeah, I have to agree with you that the M-16A2 is a POS (Does the phrase "butter-butter-jam" ring a bell?). I know the Army is already experimenting with new weapons, but I doubt the Marine Corps will ever get away from using M-16A2's, at least not for a long time. We'll probably still be using M-16A2's while they sit in Army museums!
Even if we wanted to start using better weapons, we couldn't afford it, anyway! What would we buy them with, blue money? That's less than the Navy spends on a new ship for themselves every year! I don't know much about the AK. I remember reading somewhere that statistically, it is definitely better than the M-16. I don't know if they'd ever be willing to adopt it, though, since that's the weapon our enemy uses, isn't it? I'm all for low-maintenance, though. A weapon that can still fire after 3 years without cleanings? Sounds good to me!

 

[thx10050]

I'm glad you understand my POV, Flatfoot, at least in terms of LINE and martial arts kata and choreography. That's why you hear so many stories about martial arts masters being severely beaten, or even killed, by those who are untrained in the arts, so to speak.

An example of these stories would be this. I once heard from a friend of mine that a women, who was, and presumably still is, a master of kickboxing, was attacked by a man in the street, who spat some food in her face before attempting to strike her for reasons unknown. She responded with her training and quicky knocked the man to the ground with a few well-placed punches and kicks. However, the man feigned being more injured than he was and when she bent in close to check on his condition, he rammed a punch-dagger right into her nose, almost severing it completely.

When the police arrived, they thought that SHE had attacked HIM because there was so much of her blood on his face and clothes. The moral of this is that even the most dedicated of students to the martial arts simply aren't prepared for real-world chaotic violence, but think of themselves as ready for it because they have all this training and therefore think that they are prepared for everything the world can throw at them. I know, because I used to think this way as well, until I found this new system I've been learning this summer. But in a dojo training environment, crack-crazed druggies, who don't feel any pain because they're too high, aren't thrown at you for you to defeat with what you know, nor are those people armed with knives, hand guns, pipes, etc. Nor do those people have buddies to help them out who might also be armed or high or simply crazy. A 120 lb woman, especially if she's mentally ill, can fight like a crazed tiger if provoked, but that's another story, if you want to hear it.

Anyways, sorry for being long-winded and I hope my story made some sort of sense in this discussion. I'm tired, so I was just kinda typing. As for new weapons, I actually disagree with all this technological stuff the Army's implenting. I mean, I hear news about how the new OICW will have 20mm grenades with micro-chips in them so that they are programmed to explode above cover. Geez, what ever happend to the good old reliable WW2 M1 rifle?

 

[areenactor]

the AK47

is an incredible weapon. trust me, you don't want it firing at you!
buty in your own hands *sigh* nice...
the problem with "hand to hand" is you are trying to teach a platoon of people to use this stuff in only a few weeks. to be really proficient, you need years of training. that's why they have the choreograph system. it at least teaches you what to do with the most often encountered situations. i like the isrealies hand to hand system. simple, but effective, and you don't have to be bruce lee.
steve

 

[Ticklish9's]

As Regards ROTC...

THX, I will be a participant in the ROTC program this coming year at PSU, and I have been involved with them before as well. The people who had contracted into ROTC (and there weren't all that many) seemed dedicated and aware of the decision they were making. However, I decided to go through enlisted training and service first to get a taste of what my soldiers will go through...by the time I'm done with school I should have PLDC and the E-5 rank, so that I'll be able to appreciate lower enlisted and noncom roles. Unfortunatly, there does tend to be some derision among the lower enlisted for officers, particularly ROTC officers...sadly, this is not entirely undeserved; my XO at my AIT training company wasn't entirely sure how to salute or take command of an element. However, you appear to be highly intelligent and dedicated, and that will become readily apparent to your enlisted soldiers. They'll respect an officer who cares about them and fights for them - some battles, only an officer can win. Congrats on going Army - the Marines are some tough fighters and a tight knit corps, but I've found the Army to be relatively close as well, certainly as compared to any civilian fraternity or organization.

 

[Ticklish9's]

Re: missed this the first post

Is hand to hand combat in the Marines superior to all other armed forces fighting?? [/QUOTE


yes it is, but again that means not including the snake eater types.
the marines are the only service that still includes bayonette training. in the army they tell you "if they are close enough to use a bayonette on, you fucked up and deserve to die". the last guy from the air force that saw a bayonette in person fainted. in the navy they think it's a big knife to peel potatoes with. hehehe
steve

Having recieved some very sore muscles on bayonette training in my army basic training, I have to disagree with you on this one, Areena! However, a friend of mine in the navy did say that he's never seen a bayonette, and likewise fired a 9m handgun once - just once - in his basic training, and that's the only weapon he's ever fired.

 

[thx10050]

Hey, Ticklish9, thanks for the rather high opinion on me, I really appreciate it, especially coming from a person with prior enlisted service.

I wanted to experience the same thing, 9, and go through the enlisted ranks first so that I could better understand where the men I hopefully will eventually command are coming from. Unfortunately for me, my Indiana National Guard recruiter was a jackass and screwed up some of my more important paperwork, including my MOS choice. Plus, if that wasn't bad enough, I was ultimately DQed once the physical was over because the refraction of one of my eye lenses was slightly too high for enlisted personnel. Now, it seems the only way I can go into the Army, and military in general, is through ROTC. I'll have to apply for a LASIK waiver first though, as I had that surgery done in May. I haven't regretted it though and I see 20/25 right, 20/20 left, and supposedly 20/15 together. Needless to say, I'm extremely happy with that result.

I realize that ROTC officers are seen in a bad light by enlisted personnel and I hope to show the men I'm commanding that I'm not a person to hide behind my rank and that I actually do give a shit about them. If I don't know the answer to something, I simply don't know it, but I won't bluster and order people about in an effort to hide that fact. We were learning about leadership styles and I think I'm going to try and be delegative; I'm sure you know what that means. I feel that if I try and lead that way, allowing others to get involved in decision making, my platoon and I will feel more like a team and it won't seem like I'm acting all superior to them.

I'm actually quite nervous about becoming an officer. In all my life, I've always been a follower, be it in sports, social groups, etc. I guess that's what led up to my desire after high school to go into the Marine Corps first. One, I thought I'd be better prepared for college in terms of maturity and two, I wanted, and still do want, to experience the military. I think it's something that everyone should do. Either that, or some form of community service. Have to give back to the country and all that. Unfortunately, some events with my parents canceled that idea out, so now I'm in Army ROTC and college and I haven't really regretted it.

When it comes to the Army though, I'm somewhat of an idealist. The Army for us cadets starts in ROTC and as I mentioned before, not many people see it in that light. And not too many people in my ROTC battalion have the whole concept of team going on. I'm not the best cadet in my battalion. I don't score 300s on the PT test, ace land-nav like it's nothing, or can disassemble an M16A2 in less than a minute thirty. I'm not that kind of hard-core person and I'll admit it freely. And I'll also admit that humping a heavy ruck, while wearing LBE and carrying my weapon, for miles isn't exactly my idea of a wonderful time, nor is it truly great to be doing that while trying to maintain balance in the mud. But I try hard and I do the best that I can and I'm always trying to learn. *Shrugs* That's simply what I'm about. And also going along with being an Army idealist, to me, the most important thing for me will be the men under my command. I'll want the best for them and I'll want them to work hard as well and those two will go together. But there's that fine line between wanting the best for your men and being a push-over. I expect I'll learn that eventually. But it will be all about the men. And if I'm ever sent into combat, my goals will be to get the mission accomplished and get my men home alive. The problem nowadays is that I hear too much shit about politics between the officers in the Army nowadays and that's rather disheartening.

Anyways, I'm long-winded like I said before. Ticklish9, if you have any advice on what enlisted men expect from and respect about officers, please feel free to either reply here or PM me. Like I said, I'm always trying to learn.

 

[thx10050]

Arenaactor, I believe what you're talking about is Krav Maga. Actually, an Israeli didn't originally come up with that system. He simply took the World War 2 close-combat system developed for the GIs to kill the Japanese and altered a few things to call it his own. However, it is very effective and what I like most about Krav Maga is one of its rules: There are no rules.

 

[thx10050]

Glad they brought back the bayonet training to Army Basic, if it was there for a while and then taken away. I also wasn't sure if they still did that, if they ever did. Anyways, yeah, fighting with the oversized q-tips while wearing football helmets was always fun...

 

[Biggles of 266]

Re: the chicken stranglers, biggles?

you'll have to forgive me, but i haven't heard of that term.

the Chicken Stranglers are, of course, the Australian SAS. I've read books by the British SAS, and they say that the Australian training is harder and the men are tougher.

 

[ShiningIce]

What about the Foreign Legion of old?

 

[areenactor]

the french foreign legion

of old, or modern is some very tough fighters. don't mess with them.

steve

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: the chicken stranglers, biggles?

the Chicken Stranglers are, of course, the Australian SAS. I've read books by the British SAS, and they say that the Australian training is harder and the men are tougher.

I think they might find each others training tougher than their own. Aussie cobbers are used to the hot weather and are more suited to desert marches. Let's see them trying to do selection at Hereford and doing all those forced marches through the brecon beacons in winter, with two foot snow drifts lying around. Of course, get brit blokes in the desert and they'll go down just as fast.

 

[ShiningIce]

Lets not forget the deadly and ferocious Shriners

 

[BigJim]

Lets not forget the deadly and ferocious Shriners

At the risk of sounding dense and un-initiated.............who?

 

[areenactor]

big jim the shriners are

kind of like an upper degree of the masons.
they are highly involved in charity work here in america.
the only thing ferocious about them is the amount of beer they can consume at the anual family picnic.
steve

 

[Biggles of 266]

I've heard that the Shriners raise millions of dollars, and only donate a small portion of it.

I can back this up as soon as I get one of my books back from someone I lent it to...

 

[areenactor]

yeah, you get your book biggles

My grandfather was a shriner, and my father is a mason, so i don't like it when know nothings like you start flapping their mouths w/o personal knowledge.
try going to a masonic meeting before you say this again!
steve

 

[qjakal]

Down a notch....

Easy does it ...make your points within the guidelines, gents, ok? Q

 

[Biggles of 266]

I'll try this again...

Perhaps I wasn't polite enough the first time around.

I don't want to be called names.

I shouldn't have used such filthy disgusting sailor talk to describe the shriners.

I shall verify my information when I get my book.

lots of love and kisses,
Biggles

 

[areenactor]

keep your love and kisses

i've heard all this before, the masons are part of the tri-lateral comission, the iluminate, etc.again i say, go meet some mason/shriners, visit a shriner hospital, then open your mouth.
qkackle, why can he insult my family by calling my grandfather an asshole, but when i say it back, i get edited??? can we say hypocrocy?
steve

---------

This post edited to remove flamebait. Areenactor, look before you cry hypocrisy: Q edited Biggles's post as well as yours.

 

[BigJim]

Steve, at the risk of getting the hallibut treatment can I ask a question. I don't know anything about the Shriners; indeed I just heard of them for the first time in this thread. My question is about the Freemasons...........

Is your father's rank in one of the first three degrees?