fetish vs. faith

[Gadilici]

Well, after they all got off the ark, God said there would be enmity between creatures, and that the beasts of the field were available for food, and that they would fear man. Must be significant if He said it at that point. One would deduce there may not have been any such issues with wild things at the time.

And have you ever seen "A Lion Called Christian"? The name is nothing more than coincidence. It's about a pair of guys in London who raised a lion in their flat. Then he got too big, and they took him to Africa. A year later, they went back, and not only was the lion in charge of his own pride, but he recognized them, and was quite affectionate. In his 450 pound way.

So men can get along with predators under the right circumstances.

We are fervent. But you keep asking

Christopher

 

[john getty]

I know I'm determined to get the last word, aren't I, sorry. So what did God get up to before He created the heavens and all his angels?

 

[Gadilici]

I dunno. When you got all eternity to fill, and you're all-powerful, I'm sure you can think of something.

I've always wondered since He's omnitemporal, would he need to fill in eternity past? or would hes simultaneous, omnipresent Nature existing in every instant of eternity to come keep Him occupied? I wonder sometimes if there are universes beyond ours with a race created much as we are, in His image, but that did not fall. That have always been in Eden.

Maybe we're the only beings in His image that blew it.

Or maybe He's created many that all fell.

Well, people don't commonly walk on water, or split seas, but those were done. And it wasn't the Red Sea. The Hebrew name is Yam Suph (or something like that) translates into Reed Sea. It was actually an inlet on the Mediterranean. But you can see from how I may have misspelled the Hebrew, maybe a translator way back, messed up and put too few E's in. Or maybe the spelling rules of the day only needed one E.

But of course, believing about Jonah presupposes you believe in the supernatural.

Christopher

 

[Libertine]

Omniscience Vs. Hell

Do you have kids, Libertine? Ever intentionally let them make a mistake?

Now, God, being perfect (just follow the assumption, perfection can be argued separately), stands to reason He'd create something that was done. But it was without form. So, one line of thinking is that He created it complete. Then was Lucifer's rebellion, and when he was cast down, it caused destruction throughout creation. ...

Being omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, it's a real possibility He's done that.

Being all of the above, why does 'God' create beings whom he knows perfectly well, eons before he even got around to creating them in his perfect, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent sort of way, will make choices that will damn them for all eternity?

No sane individual would let a blind person walk off a cliff to teach him a lesson.

Keep on tickling willing partners in a guiltless sort of way, folks.

The 'Creator of the Universe' is guiltier of far worse than you are.

 

[Gadilici]

Now how would you feel if you made a universe and your creation told you you did it wrong?

Maybe the blind man was told the cliff was there, and warned he would die if he continued. But he didn't believe and went anyway. Now, do you force him to not go over? Or do you respect his right as an individual to make his own decisions? I believe that the rights of the individual to make his own decisions (unless they are willfully harming another) should be respected. Even if it leads to their end.

Or would you force your will upon a blind man?

Perhaps He knows something we don't. Being able to see all ends of the things.

And perhaps in seeing all ends He knows that in the end, it will still be better with some who have chosen Him, and some that have not, than it would be if there were never any at all?

And how can the One who makes the rules and sticks to them utterly be guilty of anything?

But yes, by all means tickle on without guilt. We're not ticklish by accident, you know. No sense in wasting such a gift.

Christopher

 

[Libertine]

Woe to Him Who Hath a Brain and Will Not Think.

Now how would you feel if you made a universe and your creation told you you did it wrong?

Maybe the blind man was told the cliff was there, and warned he would die if he continued. But he didn't believe and went anyway. Now, do you force him to not go over? Or do you respect his right as an individual to make his own decisions? I believe that the rights of the individual to make his own decisions (unless they are willfully harming another) should be respected. Even if it leads to their end.

Or would you force your will upon a blind man?

Why do the police or passers-by risk their lives trying to prevent suicides on bridges and the edges of cliffs? Are they more merciful and caring than your God?

Anyway, I'm absenting myself from this discussion. Recent studies have shown that there's a strong genetic basis for religious belief, (like left handedness, or homosexuality, for instance) traits which are often found in identical twins so since your brain's wired for God, and mine isn't, there's no point in talking further. This link might provide further explanation.

http://www1.umn.edu/umnnews/Feature_Stories/Religious_faith_may_be_genetic.html

 

[Tickaler]

You can tickle all you want, for as long as you want, but technically, under Christianity, as long as you repent enough, you'll be ok. How else do politicians get into heaven? Ehhhh Ohhh!

So go forth and fornicate!

 

[Gadilici]

Untrue, Tickaler. Unless your church has confession, and most of us Protestants dont.

And if that's the view a "Christian" takes, possibly not truly a Christian. Are you repenting because you know you've done wrong and hurt Him who gave so much for you? Or are you repenting for fire insurance? Ok, not you specifically, but whomever you're talking about in your statement.

And tickling is not fornicating. It can be used with it, but it itself is not. Or do you wish to argue a parent that tickles their child is fornicating?

I know you're not watching, Libertine, but I'll respond anyway.

Do they love more than God? No. But they are very much trying to force their will on the suicider. God lets people reap the rewards of what they sew. People are always trying to protect people from themselves. Unless they're just trying to talk him out of it. And if that's what you mean, how do you know he's not having a similar conversation with God inside himself?

Too much in the way of a persons actions is attributed to genetics. Just an attempt to take away personal responsibility for doing wrong, and take away any congratulations for doing right. The evening out, homogenization of society. I am not Christian because of genetics, I am Christian because I can see it. I can figure it out. It makes sense to me. If the genetic theory holds true, my wife shouldn't be a Christian. Her mother is very anti-Christian. But she came to God thru following the scientific method. She didn't look for what religion she liked best, she looked for truth. Whether she liked the answers or not. When someone presented a logical argument for Jesus being God, and the Bible being true, she was able to look deeper and deeper, until she came to the conclusion that He was in fact the true God.

Genetics can make someone have an influence, but in the end, it's really a decision. Otherwise, why would there be so many atheists with such hardcore Catholic parents?

But you will believe as you do till you decide to change your belief, if in fact you ever do. That's your call. And I won't think less of you for it. I have more atheist/agnostic/pagan friends than Christian ones. One must deal with their beliefs themselves. And that's the way it's designed to be.

Christopher

 

[waitin2btkled]

I think the main problem here is that unwitting and inherent demand of the oppressive majority (Christians) to be respected....i.e. if you don't believe in our prophet and Son, you will go to hell. It's a very life-denying philosophy in my book. That's why Hinduism and Judaism seems to be far less oppressive (don't bring in the whole middle-eastern conflict, that is over land, not God, and don't bring up "God's" land), because those faith systems do not condemn the outsiders (i.e. those that do not believe in their faiths).

A wise Jewish professor once told me that, though God can be an integral part in Judaism, it is more about the cultural and familial ties of the Jewish people and their traditions ties that bind them.

I am neither Jewish nor Hindu, fyi.

I don't believe such a loving God would subject people to be burned forever in "hell". That is a whole other pandora's box to be opened.


Historical Proof that this took place.

The ancient Mayans were one of the first civilizations to understand the concept of zero. They mapped out the starts and came up with a calendar that includes leap year which is what formed our global calendar today.

They also had artifacts dating back over 1600 years. All of what i said is FACT. Keep that in mind when reading this.

 

[Tickaler]

Untrue, Tickaler. Unless your church has confession, and most of us Protestants dont.

And if that's the view a "Christian" takes, possibly not truly a Christian. Are you repenting because you know you've done wrong and hurt Him who gave so much for you? Or are you repenting for fire insurance? Ok, not you specifically, but whomever you're talking about in your statement.

And tickling is not fornicating. It can be used with it, but it itself is not. Or do you wish to argue a parent that tickles their child is fornicating?

Can I assume from your reply that a 'true' Christian repents because they know they have done wrong after the fact, and that they have hurt their God? And not for fire insurance? If so, then how can Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. be true Christians when they propogate wars that need not be fought? Do they not know they are doing things contrary to the Christian life?

What I'm trying to say is that the world is full of Christians that know their lives are sinful, but believe, at the very core of their being, that if they repent enough, everything will be OK. (OK, for Protestants, it would be to worship Jesus as much as possible by living in his image, right?)

And yes, I would argue that Adult Tickling is fornication, in the Christian sense (lust after the body, etc.) Obviously, parent tickling the kid is completely different.

 

[Tickaler]

I don't believe such a loving God would subject people to be burned forever in "hell". That is a whole other pandora's box to be opened.


Historical Proof that this took place.

The ancient Mayans were one of the first civilizations to understand the concept of zero. They mapped out the starts and came up with a calendar that includes leap year which is what formed our global calendar today.

They also had artifacts dating back over 1600 years. All of what i said is FACT. Keep that in mind when reading this.

Dude, the only FACT you're proving is that there was possibly some crazy shit going on in the solar system in those years....that doesn't prove God did it.....

 

[Gadilici]

Who says those particular Presidents are? That's between them and God, and as an observer I can't say for sure that they really were. I will say that I am unimpressed with all of them as Chief Executive.

But that doesn't really mean much, does it?

Well, there are Christians of faith, and Christians of religion. A Christian of faith believes that Jesus took our sins, and to believe that He is God, and the Son of God (it was a familiar concept in 1st century Judea, the begotten firstborn being equivalent to his father), that he was born of a virgin, lived sinless and sacrificed Himself to take our sins from us. But the key is, you must accept this gift He offers. Satan believes in God, knows Him on sight, even. believes in Jesus, the virgin birth and all the rest. So,obviously, that's not all there is to it. It's belief ON Him. accepting him as your Sovereign, to use an older but very correct phrase. So the Christian of faith has accepted the Gospels as truth, AND decided to follow the God of the Bible.

A Christian of religion believes IN all of that, but thinks that they can EARN their way to God by following all the rules, and condemning anyone who makes a mistake. This is not what the Bible says works. All the rules are there for good reasons, and I'll debate the reasons with anyone separately from the thread, should you so choose. But the Bible explicitly states that works will not get you to God. Only acceptance of what He's done will. So RELIGION is not the answer in the Book. FAITH is. Paul said we are saved by Grace, not by works.

I think the ones you're talking about fall into one of two categories. First is the religious, if I work hard enough, I can erase the sins category. The second group claims they are, but truly are not. You can be suspicious of them, as to the veracity of their claim, but like I said before, only they and God know the truth about their faith. Or lack of it.

Forgiveness itself isn't about Hail Mary's, or asking God to forgive you repeatedly. Do you feel convicted? Are you sorry in your heart that you did what violates your faith and conscience? Or are just like "wow, better cover my butt on this one"? The latter is false repentance. The first is true repentance. But, once you've asked forgiveness out of a true sense of contrition, God forgives, and now it's time for you to let it go as well. Remember it. Learn from it, but don't be chained by it. After that, if you feel guilt, it can be damaging. Guilt is being unable to forgive yourself even after the offended party (God, someone you cheated, whatever) has forgiven you. That's the difference.

Now, not to say that people of faith are sinless. I can't keep track of how many times a day, I screw up in the sin department. I have committed some whoppers, and occasionally, I still gotta fight out feelings of guilt from acts long forgiven. I've done bad things. After me and my ex wife split, I got plain stupid. I know I'll mess up. I know I'll be mad at myself when I do. I just work to limit how often I blow it. Never be perfect in life. No one ever will, there was only One who was. It's about improvement, and climbing back on that wagon, to borrow a phrase from recovering alcoholics. Just because you fail at something doesn't mean you should lay in the dirt and surrender. You get up, and fight on.

As far as war goes, it is not necessarily a sin. Why have you fought the war? Was it a sin to fight Hitler? Sometimes the sin is more in how a war is conducted, and how a leader treats the men in harm's way. Sometimes the war itself is unjustifiable. Saddam invading Kuwait. War of greed. It's all in the motivations. You can say that Bush or Clinton or Obama have waged war for greed. Truth is, only they know the truth of their motivations. We can only make guesses and assumptions. But again, I have to say, I don't know that they really ARE followers of Jesus, or just claim it.

But some wars must be fought. Some wars should never be fought.

God does not consign people to Hell. Humanity blew the deal early on. A race destined for Hell. think of it that everyone is born with a train ticket. At a certain age, the Age of Accountability (the age at which you now can make the choice to follow or deny Jesus, which is different for everyone because everyone develops differently, hence a baby is still "innocent" because it cannot comprehend this yet), the ticket becomes active. The ticket is for "Hell" (which is not a final destination). But then someone comes and gives you a choice. He says that he will redeem your ticket, buy you off the train, if you follow him. Or, you can continue to wait on the platform, and one day, board the train. It's your call. He offers you a way to leave damnation. You're already on the way there. It's only your choice to accept the gift that determines if you board that train or go hop a plane to a better destination. And that's it. Nothing you do in life "sends" you to Hell. Already en route. The choice is accept Life, or continue with Death.

And no, this is not a license to rape, murder, steal, beat up old ladies and kick dogs. If you decide you want that lifestyle, and you'll "convert" just before you die, doesn't work. That's fire insurance. If you look at your life and say that there must be something better and something more, that's where true conversion comes from. But you can't do it solely out of fear. That's fire insurance again. It must be because you believe that Jesus is the Truth, and the Word.

It's late, and I'm not sure I'm saying it the way I mean to. I apologize.

Oh, and it's only fornicatory (a new word?) if you're actually lusting after the flesh. Is it fornication to have your eyes roll back in your head when someone scratches your back? Is it fornication to get a massage because your muscles hurt? These are pleasures that we seek and are in the physical flesh. It's your motivation. I've tickled since before I knew what attraction to the opposite sex was. Before I felt any attraction to the ladies, I loved tickling. Its a catharsis (like some people get from the gym, or listening to the fourth movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony), it's bonding with a friend, it's a sport like basketball. Or it can be dirty, sexual, part of intercourse, (or any other sex act), about nothing but carnality and lust. It is what the individual decides to make of it.

You decide what you want it to be. For you. Don't decide what it is for me, because it might not be what you think.

I don't mean that last bit to sound irritable, it isn't. It's all in why are you doing it, was all I's saying.

Christopher

 

[Carsomyr]

I don't believe such a loving God would subject people to be burned forever in "hell". That is a whole other pandora's box to be opened.


Historical Proof that this took place.

The ancient Mayans were one of the first civilizations to understand the concept of zero. They mapped out the starts and came up with a calendar that includes leap year which is what formed our global calendar today.

They also had artifacts dating back over 1600 years. All of what i said is FACT. Keep that in mind when reading this.

Dude, the only FACT you're proving is that there was possibly some crazy shit going on in the solar system in those years....that doesn't prove God did it.....

Did you two even read the whole thing? Maybe I'm missing something here since I haven't really been paying attention to the debate, but that link has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christianity or the bible; it's someone trying to prove the Nibiru Collision, which is supposedly what will end the world in 2012.

Or to put it another way: A crazy person just threw in a bible reference out of convenience, along with a couple of LEGENDS (I assume that I don't have to explain why I stress the word "legend") to "prove" his or her ridiculously outlandish claim. Kinda just shows that, by manipulating facts and mixing them up with myths, legends and lore, you really CAN prove anything. I mean, the article could just as well have been about proving a passage in the bible, but it is actually trying to prove that a woman called Nancy has a brain implant that allows her to communicate with extraterrestial beings. These beings in turn are telling her that another planet is about to pop out of nowhere and smash into Earth in the very near future.

Coming from someone who studies to become a historian - a profession where critical thinking is, well, critical - I laugh at this supposed "historical proof" REGARDLESS of why it was put up on the Internet. No offence, but it never ceases to amaze me how people allow themselves to be spoonfed bullshit just because it enforces their world views...

 

[jackbw]

Looks like this thread has been taken over by new folks... arguing pretty much the same things. So I'm not going to bother to respond, haha. Anyone can message me if they care what I think.