Is tickling bad – the ethics of tickling

[A Secret Person]

Sorry if the title is too close to clickbait. No, I don’t hate tickling. I don’t think it’s bad. I don’t think the community is bad.
But there is a potential for harm.
I lurked on the site for 5-6 years, but now want to say something important about moral. I write it because I didn’t find other discussions like this on the forum (which is expected, as the forum is mostly an art and interest forum). Most questions on the forum connected to ethics or moral are personal and “spiritual” (though it isn’t the best word of course), like “is it ok for a pedicurist to have a tickling fetish if they still do their work properly”, or just “I am not sure if I am comfortable doing X”, where even if the answer is “no”, there is no direct and obvious harm done. What I am asking is about moral in a society, and our effect on the world, rather than just what we feel.
Maybe all the answers for my questions are obvious and everybody knows them already, and I would be happy to hear this is the case.
<B>Of course, not all people are interested in the topic, or should be. You can ignore this post. </B> But I would really like to hear the opinions of people who do care.
Sorry if my manner of speaking is too abstract of philosophical, and for any problems I have with English.

Tickling (or, at least, sadistic tickling) is very similar to BDSM. It is a forceful action to create a physical response, the response is so strong people often need to be tied. Many people enjoy it, but the people who don’t enjoy really suffer from it. And even if it sometimes is not sexual in nature, and sometimes is done without negative emotion, it is often both sexual, and is regarded by both ler and lee as a form of torture (even if enjoyable one). 90% (rough estimate) of the fictional stories on the forum are focused on tickling as torture too, even if often it is technically consensual.
The problem is that BDSM is something people understand the danger of. People understand that BDSM is a serious thing, it requires security measures, consent, and safewords. Some people ignore it, but they consciously ignore it because they are irresponsible or just bad people.
With tickling many people don’t think this. Both because it is regarded as something natural and normal, and because it’s hard to find the exact boundary between innocent everyday tickling which many people engage in, and the sadistic torturous tickling I described earlier. And if such things do happen, it’s possible (not very probable, but possible) for the lee either to not understand they have the right to feel harmed or angered, or be ignored by others, because being tickled will not be considered a serious problem. And there are cases when the consent for such tickling is only partial, so even if there was no aggressive violation of rights, there was still harm. I don’t think it happens often, but the probability is far higher compared to normal BDSM.
Because of this cultural phenomenon, I assume non-consensual tickling of this kind happens rarely, but relatively consistently. I can’t be sure, as I don’t have exact statistical numbers, and I doubt it’s possible to have them at all. But I think this is the situation.
This is not anyone’s fault, and there is nothing to do here beyond changing the nature of humanity, right?
No. because there is another factor here – the tickling community. The community, both on this forum and generally on the internet is, as all communities are, focused on finding similar people and discussing interests, making them more visible and easy to find. For people who love tickling to find each other. And for people who want to read stories about tickling to read them. This is great.
The problem I am worried by is that, as the amount of tickling (serious sadistic tickling) in the world – and people talking and hearing about this kind of tickling – rises, the amount of non-consensual tickling rises proportionally.
And even if this potential fraction of percent of non-consensual tickling in the world is not the community’s fault, but a natural result of human nature and society, still the fact is that if there was no community, less people would have engaged in (sadistic) tickling, and less of it would have been non(or not fully)-consensual.
The conclusion is <b>obviously not</b> that the community is bad. The conclusion is: <B>“guys (“guys” being gender-neutral here), let’s think with our maximal brain power, what can we do so the increase in the amount of tickling would not increase the fraction of it that is non-consensual, how to inspire and encourage tickling knowing that the only kind of tickling we encouraged is good tickling” </B>. I am not talking about just the rules of the community itself – those rules obviously already exist and are already followed when people tickle each other. What I am asking is for ways to spread those rules even to people outside the organized tickling clubs and meetings, so people generally will know (if they already know that tickling is a fetish and it BDSM adjacent) that tickling is a serious business and requires explicit consent and safe words. To reinforce care for safety as an inherent part of tickling culture.
That applies to art like stories or pictures too. Of course, making up fictional bad things is not morally wrong, and reading stories about torture doesn’t make you a sadist, just like playing violent video games doesn’t make you more violent. But it can reinforce, cultivate and normalize those things if they already exist. If I wrote stories here (which I want to do, but don’t really have the option right now), I would always write in the beginning of every story “this story is not only fictional, but also a bad example, never repeat anything from the story, and don’t learn from the characters in it”. but that’s just a personal opinion.
That's not a classical "moral panic" about "bad content", but rather a question - "how to handle the content so it doesn't become bad, or cause harm".
What other ideas do you have?
Of course, all those things should be 100% voluntary, and not limit anyone in any way, as it is stupid to demand anything from people to prevent problems that may exist only in my imagination (even if I am still convinced they are real).

There is also the <b>related but different</b> problem of clip production. It exists in all parts of the porn industry, of course, and there is always the idea of “maybe supporting porn in general will cause some harm somehow”, and there are always rumors like “well I heard this guy is a jerk, maybe I shouldn’t buy his clips”. It’s nothing concrete. For example, everyone discusses the “innocent” studio, that is most likely lying about how horrible they are [1]. Let’s suppose they are lying (even if the lack of lawsuits by itself doesn’t prove anything [2]).
But what if we discover some studio that actually breaks the rules, that doesn’t have safewords, or doesn’t tell the models those are fetish videos, or that it would be distributed at all? Or, in a purely theoretical and crazy situation, if a studio actually tickles random people against their will?
What can be done in situations like this? Not in a “well I guess I will not buy those videos because I would feel uncomfortable with this” way, but a “what can we do so the studio will stop directly harming people, as fast as possible?!” way. There are a lot of problems in the world, of course, but these specific problems would not exist if there weren’t tickle communities purchasing those tickling clips.
Edit:<b>To clarify. The clip production part is completely separate from my main argument, I only mention it as a "that's also a related problem" thing, as I know people already discussed it a lot on this forum.</b>


[1] Though I think that first, if someone pretends to do illegal and immoral things, they should usually be treated like they do illegal and immoral things, and “but what if they just pretend?” shouldn’t be a concern; And second, the fact that a studio pretends to break the rules for safe tickling and advertises it because it makes the videos more appealing and fantasy-fulfilling, by itself says a lot about the culture of the tickling community (as are the fictional stories in which tickling is recorded and uploaded to the internet, but is believed by the watchers to be fine).
[2] I don’t know about South America, but can say with 100% certainty that in places like Russia, with the complete corruption of police and courts, it is completely possible for people to do things like this (and many other illegal things) even if it could result in serious lawsuits.

 

[Phineas]

But what if we discover some studio that actually breaks the rules

This is the only part of that rambling mess that made any sense to me, so I'll address it.

In 99.99% of the cases, "the rules" are not moral rules, but legal rules. You are not legally allowed to lie to models about the nature of the shoot. You are not legally allowed to do something to a model they haven't consented to. You are doubly not legally allowed to do something to a model they haven't consented to while they are tied up. You are EXTREMELY not legally allowed to creepshot unsuspecting women in public and make porn videos out of it. In short, if you can think of it and it seems wrong, there's a law against it as far as porn goes.

If you find a studio that is legit breaking the law, report them to their provider and/or law enforcement. They'll then be forced to produce paperwork and/or model testimony that everything is above-board or they'll get prosecuted for assault, fraud, 2257 violations, and whatever else the AG can get to stick because tossing creeps who abuse women in jail is a Good Thing. Furthermore, Clips4Sale no longer allows a lot of things that they used to allow so even if the clip was produced legally, if C4S decides it's sketchy enough they'll remove it and sanction you anyway, because after the PornHub thing everybody is gunshy about having the camera turn on them next, so to speak.

I've reported sketchy studios to the moderators here (said studios were advertising on the Clips forum), and they are very diligent about investigating these things and refusing to let those studios continue to post if they find any wrongdoing. So you have plenty of avenues to pursue if you think a studio is operating in a dishonest, abusive, or criminal manner.

 

[A Secret Person]

This is the only part of that rambling mess that made any sense to me, so I'll address it.

Sorry that it was a rambling mess, I try my best to be comprehensible.

In 99.99% of the cases, "the rules" are not moral rules, but legal rules. You are not legally allowed to lie to models about the nature of the shoot. You are not legally allowed to do something to a model they haven't consented to. You are doubly not legally allowed to do something to a model they haven't consented to while they are tied up. You are EXTREMELY not legally allowed to creepshot unsuspecting women in public and make porn videos out of it. In short, if you can think of it and it seems wrong, there's a law against it as far as porn goes.

If you find a studio that is legit breaking the law, report them to their provider and/or law enforcement. They'll then be forced to produce paperwork and/or model testimony that everything is above-board or they'll get prosecuted for assault, fraud, 2257 violations, and whatever else the AG can get to stick because tossing creeps who abuse women in jail is a Good Thing. Furthermore, Clips4Sale no longer allows a lot of things that they used to allow so even if the clip was produced legally, if C4S decides it's sketchy enough they'll remove it and sanction you anyway, because after the PornHub thing everybody is gunshy about having the camera turn on them next, so to speak.

I've reported sketchy studios to the moderators here (said studios were advertising on the Clips forum), and they are very diligent about investigating these things and refusing to let those studios continue to post if they find any wrongdoing. So you have plenty of avenues to pursue if you think a studio is operating in a dishonest, abusive, or criminal manner.

Thank you for the thorough answer. It is reassuring to hear (about the second issue, at least).
To clarify, by rules I did I mean legal rules, not only moral, and my question was "what should be done" without the (possible) insinuation that not enough is being done (on the second issue, the clips).

 

[FrenzyTickles]

Thank you both.

 

[gnomes101982]

Jesus man, I was gonna give a response but the OP is a novel. I'm not reading all that.

 

[jklopez]

I thought it was going to be one of those topics where a person equates tickling someone without letting them know it's a fetish to actual rape. People actually have said these things. But, it seems it's about ethics in tickling clips. I didn't really read it, it's far too much and is just a wall of words.

 

[A Secret Person]

I thought it was going to be one of those topics where a person equates tickling someone without letting them know it's a fetish to actual rape. People actually have said these things. But, it seems it's about ethics in tickling clips.

It's not about clips. I mentioned it incidentally, and kind of regret it already, as it directed the attention in the wrong direction.
Tickling can of course never be as bad as rape [1]. But the idea that falsehood of one extreme automatically proves the opposite extreme is wrong - the fact that tickling can't be bad as rape doesn't mean it can't be just bad. Regardless of knowledge or lack of knowledge about fetishes, tickling (at least, the prolonged sadistic tickling our forum is often interested in) someone who doesn't want to, or even doesn't really want to, is bad. Not catastrophic. But still bad. And I write about it because I didn't find anyone else who wrote about it (this specific topic. A lot of people wrote about clips, and that is the reason why clips are less important here).

I didn't really read it, it's far too much and is just a wall of words.

Jesus man, I was gonna give a response but the OP is a novel. I'm not reading all that.

I'll put it as short and simple as I can: "tickling is good, but in some small amount of cases it can be bad. What ways do we, as a community, have to ensure that the growing interest in tickling (the main goal of the community) will cause as much "good" tickling as possible, and as little "bad" tickling as possible?".



[1] It is not actually that obvious, but the question of "why exactly and how much bad is rape" is both very complicated and very uncomfortable, and is an even bigger deviation from the subject.

 

[Wolf]

I'll put it as short and simple as I can: "tickling is good, but in some small amount of cases it can be bad. What ways do we, as a community, have to ensure that the growing interest in tickling (the main goal of the community) will cause as much "good" tickling as possible, and as little "bad" tickling as possible?".

I'm not sure what "growing interest" you're referring to. This is a sexual fetish/paraphilia/kink, or whatever. It's not a religion. It's not bad or good, it's what some of us happen to be into. How we express it can be bad or good, and that's purely a personal thing.

It is not actually that obvious, but the question of "why exactly and how much bad is rape" is both very complicated and very uncomfortable, and is an even bigger deviation from the subject.

You're talking about issues of consent, and treating people as actual human beings, with their own thoughts and feelings, rather than just "victims" to inflict things on in order to get off. Not a popular topic around here.

 

[jim66e]

I think you didn’t provide any proof of your underlying arguments, that first, the tickle related material is growing more widespread and second that the grow leads to a proportional increase in non consensual tickling in the wider world. I could alternatively suggest that the presence of the tickling community actual reduces such incidents but concentrating interested people in to themed groups/forums so material is less likely to seep everywhere. The community also exposes interested parties to each other so there is slightly less chance of a person acting out their desires on a non consenting individual. Finally, the community provides a place for people to learn proper rules of behavior in such situations. Without more examples on your end I don’t see how the development of tickling communities doesn’t reduce the amount of “bad” tickling in the world.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

I can kind'a see what your saying, in the sense that a lot of the art/fiction in the community are more so of a darker/non-con type of situation. However, most people who take the time to really have a look at things realize that this is fantasy for many, as opposed to a real interest. Strangers who come here and look at this stuff will likely fall into three categories. 1. The people who are curious, and take the time to get a better understanding. 2. the people who are shocked and disgusted and won't take the time to try and get a better understanding. 3. The people who really won't care, and might think we're a bit weird.

We can't control any of those peoples reactions. We can simply explain things for those who want to listen.

 

[tickletherapist]

We can't control any of those peoples reactions. We can simply explain things for those who want to listen.

And this is where the difficulties begin, because most either can't explain it right, or will explain it in their own understanding.

 

[A Secret Person]

You're talking about issues of consent, and treating people as actual human beings, with their own thoughts and feelings, rather than just "victims" to inflict things on in order to get off. Not a popular topic around here.

I am not sure if those words are serious or sarcastic (or both), so I will answer seriously, by default: yes, I know, people don’t. That is exactly the problem. But I can’t just come and say “people, you are thinking wrong!”, then I would be wrong myself.
This is an interest forum, so obviously most people here will not care about my discussion of culture building and moral responsibility for microscopic effect on the world minor actions cause. But some will, and I write for them.

I'm not sure what "growing interest" you're referring to. This is a sexual fetish/paraphilia/kink, or whatever. It's not a religion. It's not bad or good, it's what some of us happen to be into. How we express it can be bad or good, and that's purely a personal thing.

Well, a lot of people may have it, but not act on it in any way, beyond being weirdly excited about one scene in TMNT. I am talking specifically about the expressions. And there is also a specific culture in the community, beyond just having a fetish.

I can’t exactly describe what this culture is (both because of familiarity, and because it is generally a hard task), but the culture is the main point I am thinking about. I am concerned about the consequences of spreading this culture, and about doing everything I can so that spreading this culture would cause only good things, and not any damage. Though of course, others could disagree that my concern is justified, or that they have to do anything about it.

I think you didn’t provide any proof of your underlying arguments,

Yes, I don’t have a proof, of course. All I have is a concern. This concern may be justified, or unjustified. I would be happy to believe it is unjustified. But I must voice this concern anyway.

that first, the tickle related material is growing more widespread

I speak retroactively, about the existence of the community at all. Yes, it is already widespread. Yes, I better have talked about this 10 years ago. Or even better, 20 years ago. But I had the option only now. And doing at least something is always better than doing nothing, if something can be done at all.

and second that the grow leads to a proportional increase in non consensual tickling in the wider world.

I think there is an increase, despite not being exactly proportional. I am not a mathematician, and don’t know how exactly that is called, but I mean the situation where as a number grows, the fraction taken of it gets smaller, but the smaller fraction of a large number is still bigger than a big fraction of a small number. For example, if we assume a theoretical “wild state” with 1000 active lers (only in the US, or the whole world, doesn't matter), and 1 in 1000 is bad, then only one is bad. And if the more organized community grows to 20000, and only one in 10000 is bad (so 10 times lesser chance)…there are still twice of them over all.
Of course, all the numbers here are completely arbitrary, just an example.

I could alternatively suggest that the presence of the tickling community actual reduces such incidents but concentrating interested people in to themed groups/forums so material is less likely to seep everywhere. The community also exposes interested parties to each other so there is slightly less chance of a person acting out their desires on a non consenting individual. Finally, the community provides a place for people to learn proper rules of behavior in such situations. Without more examples on your end I don’t see how the development of tickling communities doesn’t reduce the amount of “bad” tickling in the world.

We can't control any of those peoples reactions. We can simply explain things for those who want to listen.

Well, yes, the community obviously does this, and I am very happy for it. I am not saying the community is bad. My question here (as someone who knows the surface level of the community, but nothing about the community itself) is “is it enough?” and “maybe there is a way to do it even better?”. Again, maybe someone already thought about it a lot. But while there are actions in this direction, it seems like most are in a “well, I guess this should happen” way, rather than “now let’s sit and think what is the best way to improve things” way. Though I may be wrong in thinking that the second way is better.

I can kind'a see what your saying, in the sense that a lot of the art/fiction in the community are more so of a darker/non-con type of situation. However, most people who take the time to really have a look at things realize that this is fantasy for many, as opposed to a real interest.

I know this is a fantasy. What I am talking about is things that (maybe?) can be done so that it stays only a fantasy rather than a (to some extent) worldview to as much people as possible, even if the "worldview" almost never results in actual actions.

 

[sonnymadler]

Unless someone starts doing active research with official stats and opinions, all we can do is hope that the people who visit this forum are mature enough to know the difference between fantasy and reality. That's why the Stories section is divided into the fictional and true sections. When it comes to changing people's attitudes and developing a better awareness of consent and 'ethics', I think our community is too small to even make a dent in that issue.

Because the issue at its core isn't in people who browse porn, visit fetish forums or actively practice their kinks. You'd have to change society as a whole, because our society for the most part sucks at basic social psychology. Any conflict, from a simple argument to acts of abuse, stems from miscommunication and inability to read each other's behaviour and respond to it properly. So if a person doesn't understand the concept of respect and consent in tickling, then they very likely devote just as little attention to those two things in everyday society.

So before we could figure out 'a way to to do it even better', it would be better to see if it's a serious problem in the first place. Because unfortunately in your convoluted mess of numbers and analogies, you are being about as clear as mud.

 

[Wolf]

Well, a lot of people may have it, but not act on it in any way, beyond being weirdly excited about one scene in TMNT. I am talking specifically about the expressions. And there is also a specific culture in the community, beyond just having a fetish. I can’t exactly describe what this culture is (both because of familiarity, and because it is generally a hard task), but the culture is the main point I am thinking about. I am concerned about the consequences of spreading this culture, and about doing everything I can so that spreading this culture would cause only good things, and not any damage. Though of course, others could disagree that my concern is justified, or that they have to do anything about it.

What "culture" are you talking about?

You're taking this far too seriously. Again, this is a fetish/paraphiia/kink, whatever. It's not a way of life.
It's harmless, as long as you have a little common sense and a little empathy for other human beings.

 

[duderino84]

You're talking about issues of consent, and treating people as actual human beings, with their own thoughts and feelings, rather than just "victims" to inflict things on in order to get off.** Not a popular topic around here.

Technically we inflict things on each other all the time throughout our entire existence. Say I don't really like talking but I hear the same demands for attention. Every. Single. Day. I'm "inflicted" upon with bullshit.

I lurked on the site for 5-6 years, but now want to say something important about moral. I write it because I didn’t find other discussions like this on the forum (which is expected, as the forum is mostly an art and interest forum). Most questions on the forum connected to ethics or moral are personal and “spiritual” (though it isn’t the best word of course), like “is it ok for a pedicurist to have a tickling fetish if they still do their work properly”, or just “I am not sure if I am comfortable doing X”, where even if the answer is “no”, there is no direct and obvious harm done. What I am asking is about moral in a society, and our effect on the world, rather than just what we feel..

By that barometer, if someone can put aside their devious thoughts to complete mundane tasks, no foul.... right? It's when it creates a clear interruption of duty it creates problems.

Tickling (or, at least, sadistic tickling) is very similar to BDSM. It is a forceful action to create a physical response, the response is so strong people often need to be tied. Many people enjoy it, but the people who don’t enjoy really suffer from it. And even if it sometimes is not sexual in nature, and sometimes is done without negative emotion, it is often both sexual, and is regarded by both ler and lee as a form of torture (even if enjoyable one). 90% (rough estimate) of the fictional stories on the forum are focused on tickling as torture too, even if often it is technically consensual.
The problem is that BDSM is something people understand the danger of. People understand that BDSM is a serious thing, it requires security measures, consent, and safewords. Some people ignore it, but they consciously ignore it because they are irresponsible or just bad people.

Let's simplify it: "anger" is in the "danger" of your BDSM remarks.

With tickling many people don’t think this. Both because it is regarded as something natural and normal, and because it’s hard to find the exact boundary between innocent everyday tickling which many people engage in, and the sadistic torturous tickling I described earlier.

You're talking about normal people who don't have the proverbial cart in front of the horse because they have "normality".... established relationships and commitments and threshold for bullshit. A lot of tickling community people are simply repressed.

The conclusion is: <B>“guys (“guys” being gender-neutral here), let’s think with our maximal brain power, what can we do so the increase in the amount of tickling would not increase the fraction of it that is non-consensual, how to inspire and encourage tickling knowing that the only kind of tickling we encouraged is good tickling” </B>..

Oh wait wait I know this one!..... get married and sell out. That usually fixes everything. And have kids. Every time you think immoral thoughts. Since you wanted the change, tho, you go first. Report back in 9 months.

 

[duderino84]

What "culture" are you talking about?

You're taking this far too seriously. Again, this is a fetish/paraphiia/kink, whatever. It's not a way of life.
It's harmless, as long as you have a little common sense and a little empathy for other human beings.

I think we have those things, otherwise we'd fail in our attempts. I think they're just..... diminished characteristics. I tickle someone, they look happy, I happily trade to a less dominating position for some reciprocal action that would make me happy.

I think ultimately as I get older and opportunities lessen, commitment is the whole "cure" thing. Especially for tickling. Most relationship concerns are if people get disinterested or feel disrespected, not over how much they get tickled.

 

[A Secret Person]

Technically we inflict things on each other all the time throughout our entire existence. Say I don't really like talking but I hear the same demands for attention. Every. Single. Day. I'm "inflicted" upon with bullshit.

Well, you ARE right. That is a problem too. But saying that a second problem exists doesn't stop the first problem from existing. And if there is a relatively simple thing that could be done to mitigate the first problem, it should be done even if the second problem exists. Though I agree that raising awareness of the right of people to be introverted (used as a general name for many things) is also important.
(Though I must also specify that most of the time, demanding attention is not a physical forceful action on the body that causes involuntary physical reaction, so the comparison was wrong from the beginning)

By that barometer, if someone can put aside their devious thoughts to complete mundane tasks, no foul.... right? It's when it creates a clear interruption of duty it creates problems.

Those are examples of the "ethical questions about tickling", and yes, the answer is really simple. Because those are questions about what the people themselves feel, rather than what they make other people feel. It's more "spiritual" than "ethical", in my opinion.

Let's simplify it: "anger" is in the "danger" of your BDSM remarks.

Not exactly, but close.

You're talking about normal people who don't have the proverbial cart in front of the horse because they have "normality".... established relationships and commitments and threshold for bullshit. A lot of tickling community people are simply repressed.

I am talking about the people who are paradoxically interested enough in tickling to have some surface level (the "i read a couple of stories about tickle torture" level) interactions with tickling community (otherwise their actions have nothing to do with the community, and it's theoretical moral responsibility), but not deep enough to actually seriously think about what tickling is, or to be actually explained by the community what the rules for safe tickling are.

Oh wait wait I know this one!..... get married and sell out. That usually fixes everything. And have kids. Every time you think immoral thoughts. Since you wanted the change, tho, you go first. Report back in 9 months.

There is no such thing as immoral thoughts, only immoral actions. And in that case, the actions are only immoral as a result of ignorance. I would not have caused this harm anyway. And even if someone was married, it would not prevent the problems I describe.
I understand that your words are just a reductio ad absurdum joke, but I explained why it was a reductio ad absurdum of something I didn't even say in the first place.

I think we have those things, otherwise we'd fail in our attempts. I think they're just..... diminished characteristics. I tickle someone, they look happy, I happily trade to a less dominating position for some reciprocal action that would make me happy.
I think ultimately as I get older and opportunities lessen, commitment is the whole "cure" thing. Especially for tickling. Most relationship concerns are if people get disinterested or feel disrespected, not over how much they get tickled.

Then you have a good relationship. That is great. But my question was not "how good is it for you", but "how to prevent it from potentially being bad for some people you never heard about", basically. As it often is, with most problems.

What "culture" are you talking about?
You're taking this far too seriously. Again, this is a fetish/paraphiia/kink, whatever. It's not a way of life.
It's harmless, as long as you have a little common sense and a little empathy for other human beings.

Yes, I am taking this very seriously. Because everything must be taken seriously at least by someone. And then other people can listen to the serious opinion, or ignore it, it's their choice.
Tickling is a fetish and not a way of life, I know. But around this fetish there is a culture. Or attitude. Or a set of assumptions. Or similar thought pasterns. Or whatever you want to call it. (By the way, there is a couple of them, probably. There is a big chance the tickling culture of TMF is slightly different from the tickling culture of Deviantart, for example)
And the problem with tickling is that while it is only harmful without common sense, as you said, it requires a smaller lack of common sense to be harmful compared to most other fetishes I know of. It is common sense that tying someone and whipping them requires very serious consent and would be harmful without it, it is less common sense that tying someone (or just pinning, even) and tickling them for a long time requires very serious consent and would be harmful without it (it would be less harmful than the first option, of course, but still harmful).

Unless someone starts doing active research with official stats and opinions, all we can do is hope that the people who visit this forum are mature enough to know the difference between fantasy and reality. That's why the Stories section is divided into the fictional and true sections. When it comes to changing people's attitudes and developing a better awareness of consent and 'ethics', I think our community is too small to even make a dent in that issue.

It's less about ethics, really, and more about...attitude? Though it is an abstract enough thing that I can't say exactly what this attitude is. But I AM convinced that the community is big enough to do things. Not to affect all people who browse porn, but to some extent "control" the attitude of the community itself. The one it projects.

So before we could figure out 'a way to to do it even better', it would be better to see if it's a serious problem in the first place. Because unfortunately in your convoluted mess of numbers and analogies, you are being about as clear as mud.

Of course, there is no way to prove it is a problem. It's almost a black box, by definition. The only thing that can be done is to consider how much should be done if this is a possibility. Of course, nothing drastic should be done, even if it is real. I am not demanding anything specific. Only raise attention to something that could, maybe, be important.

Because the issue at its core isn't in people who browse porn, visit fetish forums or actively practice their kinks. You'd have to change society as a whole, because our society for the most part sucks at basic social psychology. Any conflict, from a simple argument to acts of abuse, stems from miscommunication and inability to read each other's behavior and respond to it properly. So if a person doesn't understand the concept of respect and consent in tickling, then they very likely devote just as little attention to those two things in everyday society.

You are 100% right about society and the cause of conflicts. I do things about society too (try to, at least). But I am still convinced that it is possible (not certain, but still possible) that some amount of that harm is caused by the attitude/culture/ this...encouragement of tickling, as something that is inherently good? Something like this.


<B>I think I managed to articulate the thing I want to say in the clearest simplest form</B>: The tickling community/culture, by definition, encourages tickling, that's the primary thing it does. And I feel like this encouragement is too "unconditional", if that is the right word. And at the same time, tickling as a form of BDSM is adored by all the BDSM-leaning people (because not all tickling fetishists are BDSM-leaning) for being sadistic*.
I agree that tickling should be encouraged, but also think that to completely prevent potential harm, the encouragement should be more "conditional"? "Reserved"? "Cautious"? I don't know the exact word in English.
I also have no idea what exactly it would mean for the encouragement to be reserved, despite feeling it is necessary. I point in a direction, but I don't know enough either about the specific community of TMF (like the social structure and who are the admins and how they organize things), or about organizing communities in general to say how to reach that direction. And maybe I am wrong to point in the direction at all.
I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion, as I said basically anything I could. I am not sure if there is a problem, but it is my moral responsibility to raise awareness that a problem CAN exist, and if it can exist it would be good if people put some minimal effort into preventing even the possibility, if they can, but they don't have to.


*There are a lot of related examples, but the most representative was the post (which I can't find) about God creating tickling, the point of which is "tickling is sadistic ad devilish because it not only makes you suffer, but also makes you look happy and encourages people to tickle you even more, and that is good".

 

[oldgeezer]

Consensual tickling is acceptable.

Non-consensual tickling is not acceptable.

 

[Wolf]

Well, you ARE right. That is a problem too. But saying that a second problem exists doesn't stop the first problem from existing. And if there is a relatively simple thing that could be done to mitigate the first problem, it should be done even if the second problem exists. Though I agree that raising awareness of the right of people to be introverted (used as a general name for many things) is also important.
(Though I must also specify that most of the time, demanding attention is not a physical forceful action on the body that causes involuntary physical reaction, so the comparison was wrong from the beginning)

Etc etc etc...ad infinitum.

It seems as though you’re trying to “out-think” your own desires in a vain attempt to gain control over them.

At best, you’re just sucking the fun out of them.

 

[Wolf]

Consensual tickling is acceptable.

Non-consensual tickling is not acceptable.

Human interaction is rarely that black and white.
Plenty of gray areas where a reasonable person would consider it okay, even without express (expressed?) consent.

 

[rapazrox]

Consent is everything. We can fantasy about unconsensual, but its only fantasy. I have no real desire to do anything that the person is not ok with. Especially because its sex related! I cant understand these guys who would enjoy something sexual that the other person is not ok! There's a name for that!

unconsensual defenders says "but tickling is not technically a crime", but thats what pedophiles says to!

I believe those who really desire unconsensual stuff are just sadisct people who dont see tickling as a sex-complement. Because if they liked sex they would not desire a partner who hates the experience!!!

 

[rapazrox]

The best consensual experience that "feels like" torture its with BDSM fans, girls who like be chocked and dominated and who eventually want to try tickling (I believe most of these youtubers doing tickle challenges fit in here).

There's no direct pleasure in the tickling, but THERE IS pleasure and desire of being dominated, and the person ASKED FOR IT. In this way, its diffent than with a tickle fetishist, there's real terror, but CONSENSUAL. To me its the most far you can go with the fetish.

Unconsensual sexual torture = rape
Unconsensual regular touching = harassment.
PERIOD.

When you're 13 years old its natural to tickle a girl who already said no because even you dont really get totally what's happening.. But when you are an adult, there's no excuses to keep touching women against their will and saying its a joke.

 

[jklopez]

People with tickle fetishes really need to stop over thinking something as simple as tickling, it's not that serious.

Just don't go over anyone's boundaries or force someone to take part in tickling that clearly they aren't interested in and everything will be fine.

People get tickled everyday, b.

 

[rapazrox]

It seems as though you’re trying to “out-think” your own desires in a vain attempt to gain control over them.

At best, you’re just sucking the fun out of them.

Its called reconize something you desire its wrong and not doing it. Your argument could be use for every very bad thing people do all over the planet.

Not everything is black and white. BUT CONSENSUAL SEXUAL STUFF CERTANLY IS BLACK AND WHITE.

Im not saying the person must sign a tickle me contract. Its very clear if the person is ok or not .

Example:
A. dont tickle me, i told you its not funny, godammit whats wrong with you, no means no.

B. oh no its torture.. hahaha. somebody help me... hahah im gonna tickle you back!! (not really trying to get away)

which one did consent? its easy man

 

[Wolf]

Its called reconize something you desire its wrong and not doing it. Your argument could be use for every very bad thing people do all over the planet.
Not everything is black and white. BUT CONSENSUAL SEXUAL STUFF CERTANLY IS BLACK AND WHITE.
Im not saying the person must sign a tickle me contract. Its very clear if the person is ok or not .

Example:
A. dont tickle me, i told you its not funny, godammit whats wrong with you, no means no.
B. oh no its torture.. hahaha. somebody help me... hahah im gonna tickle you back!! (not really trying to get away)
which one did consent? its easy man

Yeah, save the righteousness, I'm actually on your side in the larger argument.
And, not to put to fine a point on it, your examples illustrate reactions, not what leads up to it.

My point is, there are a ton of situations where what you might call non-consensual would be considered cute or flirtatious with the right circumstances.
Intent has a lot to do with it, too.