Logical thoughts on the minors issue (NOT TROLLING OR STARTING ANYTHING) long post

[Markscan]

***

 

[GodlessTickler]

a point

I'm actually debating the moral side elsewhere, but I think you are talking more about the practical side of what moderators should do... and lets make no mistake about this... if certain government offices get word that a site has kiddie porn on it THEY are not going to sit there and debate. They are not going to read the stories and say... hmm, innocent tickling or a little dirty. They are going to shut this site down so fast that it makes your head spin. They are going to level fines against the owners of the site that if they can be escaped will require at least alot of paper work and possibly court costs, and they are going to very possibly investigate US the users. In my book that risk is so far from worth it it isn't funny.

To address another one of your points I am sure most, if not all of us have fond memories of tickling when we not yet 18. If I saw too small children tickling each other I wouldn't intervene (unless it was some crazy out of hand situation) but if I saw too children giving each other a little kiss I wouldn't say anything either other than an "aww" perhaps. But believe me if I saw the same two children kissing or tickling and a man on a park bench a few steps away a middle aged man unzipping his pants I would say AND do something RIGHT quick. And if material with children is on an adult forum it WILL be used that way. Now you may not use it that way, but I doubt your polite request for all the pedophiles to go commit mass suicide actually got rid of any of them. If we maintain, that all child porn (even child fantasy porn) is wrong, then we must assert that child based material has no business on an adult website, because even innocent child tickling fantasy would be used as child fantasy porn.

 

[brianspencer66]

Lets make it simple ok? There are 40,000 members here ok? Lets say someone post a story here with an adult tickling a child or even 2 kids tickling. Lets say of all the 40,000 here someone gets his or her jollies off seeing that and commits some sort of improper act with a child. He or she is taken in by the Authorities and this person mentions that he or she saw a story involving minors here or worse the police confiscate this persons computer and finds such material. Well Id think there would be true concern by the authorities. Also a concern by the people running this site that it could be shut down for indecent content involving a minor. And that concern could come to fruition. Did you know at one time AOL shut down their tickling chat at one time? I too understand that what your (the orignal poster) is talking about your merely saying in some cases there should be an artistic poetic licence. But in these so called enlightened times its more like a specific line drawn in the moral sands. There is a huge uproar right now in the media with things like child abduction child porn etc and though I understand what your saying I really dont think the mods are going to sit around and wonder which stories are playful or have artist merit.

 

[Myriads]

Every few years the twin issue of Minor content and Censorship arise here for discussion.

I like to use these opportunities to discuss how and why the TMF has come to have the policies that we do. It helps new folks understand, and reminds older ones of how we got here.

I’ll start with the big one.

The no minor content rule. It currently reads thusly:

The TMF does not allow the posting of any media content (media defined as video, pictures, artwork, prose, or discussion) that depicts a minor* involved in tickling activities.

*Minor is defined as being under the age of 18. There are additions to deal with the special silliness of magically aged or de-aged characters, because surprisingly this became a loophole issue that needed addressing.

This policy was designed and implemented by me back in my first year as the Admin based on some simple factors.

I have never been a fan of censorship. It’s not a position that I see myself supporting. I should correct that, SAW myself supporting.

But I ended up making a call to censor the forum. Contrary to what people have said about me on the newsgroups and other places, I don’t deny that the TMF practices censorship. I’m quite up front about it. We have chosen to disallow some forms of speech here. Here is why.

I was faced with the possibility of a fight that could easily destroy the forum.

When I was made Admin I was given one basic mandate. Care for the forum, it’s members, and ensure that the TMF grew and served the community those members formed.

If the forum is destroyed then I fail.

So when I look at the litigation that can arise from underage content, I have to think about the cost of defending our right to talk about whatever, vs. the forum being bankrupted and going dark.

It’s math. And the math says that if I want us to live and to keep doing all the positives for the community that the forum has done in it’s years, then I cannot allow it to be pulled into such a battle.

So I enacted the no minors rule.

In it’s earliest days it was not the blanket it was today. It covered clips, pictures, and fictional stories where there was an interaction between a minor and an adult. This was done as a compromise, because I, and others on staff felt that discussion of the experiences that made us who we were, that happened in our youth, were important things to allow discussion of.

And that was true. One of the most popular threads on the forum was the ‘Early experience’ thread that topped 100,000 views years ago. It became dozens of pages long.

And soon it was also filled with thinly veiled fantasy stories about adults mercilessly tickling children as young as single digits. It had tales of 12 year olds finding tied up adults and having their tickle ways with them. And so on.

We tried to pick these out. But the inflow was so massive that it became impossible. Such ‘Real life’ fantasy threads popped up at a stunning rate. We were swamped. Posts popped up inside other threads and took days or weeks to be noticed.

I made a call. ALL minor content got the axe.

It was made clear to me that as a community there was no grey area that I could walk the issue on. Allowing any gray opened the door to trouble from the small number of community members who desired this content.

So content of value was lost. I regret that. But so it is. Much other content of great value is safe. And I admit that’s a suck position. But it was the best that I could find to perch upon.

The OP in this thread makes points about innocent tickling and such. I agree. Innocent tickling exists. But one of the points that almost all miss, is that my censorship is not based on the content of a post. It’s based on the content of a post in the context of being made on the TMF.

Think about that subtle difference.

This issue is vastly complicated because there are so many things at work here. There are divisions in the tickling community that lie as fundamentally deep as how individuals view tickling as part of their lives. I’ve discussed those in other threads in the past. But in short, everyone comes to this fetish by a unique path. For some it’s sexual, for others it’s intimacy, for others it’s a mix. But these groups exist under the same tent and their differing views are often at odds. This lies at the basis of many problems.

An example:

About two years back a member who I know is of good heart and poses no ill will posted a link here to a persons personal blog page where there were some photos of a young woman involved in a tickle fight. I KNOW the member who posted saw this as a wonderful example of innocent tickling. And shared it in that light.

We sent over 20,000 hits to that page in a day.

A few members decided to use the e-mail address on the page to write the woman in the images and ask all sorts of questions about her tickling behavior and where she was ticklish, and so on. Some made sexual overtures. One wrote a snappy piece of fiction involving her, bondage, and tickle torture for her.

She was 13.

I got mail from mom with signs of support from a law firm. Let me tell you, it livened up a few days of my life.

Happily Mom was a rational human who understood what had happened, and why it had happened. And we came to a agreeable solution to the whole matter. It passed.

But it stands in my mind as a sterling example of the basic viewpoint difference of the ‘sides’ of our community and the trouble that arises from that friction. And that friction is a point that the tiny handful of individuals who have a sexual interest in seeing minors tickled, use to gain content for their gratification.

It’s all about context. Tickling is a behavior that is innocent to the vast majority of the planet. There is nothing sexual about it to them. It’s a curiosity, an annoyance. But HERE it’s a sexual behavior. HERE it takes on additional meaning and weight.

Because of that fact, it needs to be treated here like a sexual issue in all situations.

Our society has decreed that sexual interaction with minors is not legal. Here on the TMF tickling has sexual connotations so as a result minors and tickling do not happen here in the same post.

So such posts are vanished here. Eighteen is 100% arbitrary as an age. It was chosen here on the forum as it matched the highest basic US age of consent in all of the states. I chose it to afford us with maximum protection in maximum places.

So. That about covers it.

Always happy to discuss things. It’s why I’m here.

Myriads

 

[venray]

Well said. Good clarification....

 

[GodlessTickler]

Myriads bravo

As someone who has been bantering in this debate a bit, I just wanted to say bravo on that post. Not because it clears up any of my big logical questions, it doesn't attempt to, but because its honest. It shows the practical WHY of the choices made here. It admits censorship, but explains the very logical reasonable reason for that censorship. It really is a good post and I think sums up the practical side of the discussion quite nicely, almost definitively. Well said.

 

[method11236]

content question...

Does this mean that Tukano's memorable line of family tickling pictures is off limits? It featured a lot of ticklish situations between family members and young children. I guess there is no real reason why Tukano should be an exception other than he is a bedrock legend for the community. So, I suppose the issues becomes, what is the value of clout and reputation in this community when it comes to breaking content rules?

Methicals

 

[Myriads]

Answer: None.

Reputation does not get you a free pass to break the no minor rules.

Myriads

 

[Headsnap]

It’s all about context. Tickling is a behavior that is innocent to the vast majority of the planet. There is nothing sexual about it to them. It’s a curiosity, an annoyance. But HERE it’s a sexual behavior. HERE it takes on additional meaning and weight.

Because of that fact, it needs to be treated here like a sexual issue in all situations.

Our society has decreed that sexual interaction with minors is not legal. Here on the TMF tickling has sexual connotations so as a result minors and tickling do not happen here in the same post.

Well said. Sure it's censorship, but at the end of the day it's hardly censorship of the sanctimonious sort, although if there is some leniency being applied to users because they're "legends" of the tickling community or whatever, as implied by method above, then that needs to be stopped.

 

[totally_evil]

As someone who only turned 18 a few months ago, I'd have to say that if I'd ever found any pictures of me being tickled or tickling while I was underage on a site like this I'd have blown my top. There would have been serious pain on the broken bones/hospitalisation lines if I'd have ever found out who'd posted them.

Yes in real life people tickle a lot younger than 18, but as Myriads says the law is the law and could really screw this site over. Also would a child have given consent for the pictures to be used on a site like this, and WERE THEY ASKED and understood what the site was actually about?

 

[Headsnap]

Also would a child have given consent for the pictures to be used on a site like this, and WERE THEY ASKED and understood what the site was actually about?

To be honest a child probably couldn't be trusted to comprehend exactly what it was they were agreeing to if asked for their consent for pictures to be posted on a site like this. They're not developed enough physically or mentally to understand sexuality or eroticism. That's why the age of consent exists, and why the crime of having sex with under-age kids is called "statutory rape".

 

[TheTickleMonster]

As someone who only turned 18 a few months ago, I'd have to say that if I'd ever found any pictures of me being tickled or tickling while I was underage on a site like this I'd have blown my top. There would have been serious pain on the broken bones/hospitalisation lines if I'd have ever found out who'd posted them.

dangit, so i can't post those pics? grr! lol j/k, i would never! not that i have any anyways but yeah.

and well said myraids. i din't read all of what you said, that was long but what i did read, that was well said.

 

[Shy-n-Ticklish]

This should actually be on the General Discussion board! LOL!!

 

[TheTickleMonster]

This should actually be on the General Discussion board! LOL!!

why? it's about tickling lol

 

[Shy-n-Ticklish]

Actually, it's much deeper than that. Tickling is quite incidental to this particular topic. The subject says it - it's a "minors issue"

 

[TheTickleMonster]

Actually, it's much deeper than that. Tickling is quite incidental to this particular topic. The subject says it - it's a "minors issue"

hm, i guess ur right.

 

[Shy-n-Ticklish]

Good man!!

 

[Myriads]

The topic is of direct importance to the forum. It belongs in Tickling Discussion as a result.

This forum is the one used to discuss matters of import to the entire site.

Myriads

 

[TheTickleMonster]

Good man!!

yeah... i know the right things to say to get on a girls good side

 

[totally_evil]

dangit, so i can't post those pics? grr! lol j/k, i would never! not that i have any anyways but yeah.

Lol, I was going to say, I've only known you a couple of weeks. You would have to be extremely good with photoshop to get pictures of me tickling as a minor since I know none were ever taken.

yeah... i know the right things to say to get on a girls good side

Lol, that's certainly true, you charmer.

 

[TheTickleMonster]

Lol, I was going to say, I've only known you a couple of weeks. You would have to be extremely good with photoshop to get pictures of me tickling as a minor since I know none were ever taken.


Lol, that's certainly true, you charmer.

lol, yeah, even if i had some I wouldn't post them I care about u too much to do that, especially since you don't want any posted. And yeah, I'm glad u think it's true lol I don't think I'm a charmer though, just a sweetie .

 

[totally_evil]

lol, yeah, even if i had some I wouldn't post them I care about u too much to do that, especially since you don't want any posted. And yeah, I'm glad u think it's true lol I don't think I'm a charmer though, just a sweetie .

Awwwwww, again, cute. Well you've told me where you live now, so I could find you and hurt you if you did. Even people I love know they'd get hurt if they put anything on the internet without asking me first. And no offence but I don't love you.

 

[Myriads]

totaly evil, and mtticklemonster,

Is there a reason you are using a thread that is about a topic that is importance to the forum, for a private conversation that is off topic?

I'm pointing it out not to get on your cases in specific, but as an example of what we call thread hijacking. It's when a thread with a serious topic is basically made useless by off topic cross talk. Mostly we know people don't mean to do it, and don't even realize they are.

It's in cases like this that we feel PM's might serve a conversation much more effectivly.

Myriads

 

[renegadeguy2000]

Nail on the head

Every few years the twin issue of Minor content and Censorship arise here for discussion.

I like to use these opportunities to discuss how and why the TMF has come to have the policies that we do. It helps new folks understand, and reminds older ones of how we got here.

I’ll start with the big one.

The no minor content rule. It currently reads thusly:

The TMF does not allow the posting of any media content (media defined as video, pictures, artwork, prose, or discussion) that depicts a minor* involved in tickling activities.

*Minor is defined as being under the age of 18. There are additions to deal with the special silliness of magically aged or de-aged characters, because surprisingly this became a loophole issue that needed addressing.

This policy was designed and implemented by me back in my first year as the Admin based on some simple factors.

I have never been a fan of censorship. It’s not a position that I see myself supporting. I should correct that, SAW myself supporting.

But I ended up making a call to censor the forum. Contrary to what people have said about me on the newsgroups and other places, I don’t deny that the TMF practices censorship. I’m quite up front about it. We have chosen to disallow some forms of speech here. Here is why.

I was faced with the possibility of a fight that could easily destroy the forum.

When I was made Admin I was given one basic mandate. Care for the forum, it’s members, and ensure that the TMF grew and served the community those members formed.

If the forum is destroyed then I fail.

So when I look at the litigation that can arise from underage content, I have to think about the cost of defending our right to talk about whatever, vs. the forum being bankrupted and going dark.

It’s math. And the math says that if I want us to live and to keep doing all the positives for the community that the forum has done in it’s years, then I cannot allow it to be pulled into such a battle.

So I enacted the no minors rule.

In it’s earliest days it was not the blanket it was today. It covered clips, pictures, and fictional stories where there was an interaction between a minor and an adult. This was done as a compromise, because I, and others on staff felt that discussion of the experiences that made us who we were, that happened in our youth, were important things to allow discussion of.

And that was true. One of the most popular threads on the forum was the ‘Early experience’ thread that topped 100,000 views years ago. It became dozens of pages long.

And soon it was also filled with thinly veiled fantasy stories about adults mercilessly tickling children as young as single digits. It had tales of 12 year olds finding tied up adults and having their tickle ways with them. And so on.

We tried to pick these out. But the inflow was so massive that it became impossible. Such ‘Real life’ fantasy threads popped up at a stunning rate. We were swamped. Posts popped up inside other threads and took days or weeks to be noticed.

I made a call. ALL minor content got the axe.

It was made clear to me that as a community there was no grey area that I could walk the issue on. Allowing any gray opened the door to trouble from the small number of community members who desired this content.

So content of value was lost. I regret that. But so it is. Much other content of great value is safe. And I admit that’s a suck position. But it was the best that I could find to perch upon.

The OP in this thread makes points about innocent tickling and such. I agree. Innocent tickling exists. But one of the points that almost all miss, is that my censorship is not based on the content of a post. It’s based on the content of a post in the context of being made on the TMF.

Think about that subtle difference.

This issue is vastly complicated because there are so many things at work here. There are divisions in the tickling community that lie as fundamentally deep as how individuals view tickling as part of their lives. I’ve discussed those in other threads in the past. But in short, everyone comes to this fetish by a unique path. For some it’s sexual, for others it’s intimacy, for others it’s a mix. But these groups exist under the same tent and their differing views are often at odds. This lies at the basis of many problems.

An example:

About two years back a member who I know is of good heart and poses no ill will posted a link here to a persons personal blog page where there were some photos of a young woman involved in a tickle fight. I KNOW the member who posted saw this as a wonderful example of innocent tickling. And shared it in that light.

We sent over 20,000 hits to that page in a day.

A few members decided to use the e-mail address on the page to write the woman in the images and ask all sorts of questions about her tickling behavior and where she was ticklish, and so on. Some made sexual overtures. One wrote a snappy piece of fiction involving her, bondage, and tickle torture for her.

She was 13.

I got mail from mom with signs of support from a law firm. Let me tell you, it livened up a few days of my life.

Happily Mom was a rational human who understood what had happened, and why it had happened. And we came to a agreeable solution to the whole matter. It passed.

But it stands in my mind as a sterling example of the basic viewpoint difference of the ‘sides’ of our community and the trouble that arises from that friction. And that friction is a point that the tiny handful of individuals who have a sexual interest in seeing minors tickled, use to gain content for their gratification.

It’s all about context. Tickling is a behavior that is innocent to the vast majority of the planet. There is nothing sexual about it to them. It’s a curiosity, an annoyance. But HERE it’s a sexual behavior. HERE it takes on additional meaning and weight.

Because of that fact, it needs to be treated here like a sexual issue in all situations.

Our society has decreed that sexual interaction with minors is not legal. Here on the TMF tickling has sexual connotations so as a result minors and tickling do not happen here in the same post.

So such posts are vanished here. Eighteen is 100% arbitrary as an age. It was chosen here on the forum as it matched the highest basic US age of consent in all of the states. I chose it to afford us with maximum protection in maximum places.

So. That about covers it.

Always happy to discuss things. It’s why I’m here.

Myriads

Myriads shows us that, sadly, there are some sick-in-the-head people who are members of this forum, and we need to take precautions to protect ourselves from the very beginning.

 

[totally_evil]

totaly evil, and mtticklemonster,

Is there a reason you are using a thread that is about a topic that is importance to the forum, for a private conversation that is off topic?

I'm pointing it out not to get on your cases in specific, but as an example of what we call thread hijacking. It's when a thread with a serious topic is basically made useless by off topic cross talk. Mostly we know people don't mean to do it, and don't even realize they are.

It's in cases like this that we feel PM's might serve a conversation much more effectivly.

Myriads

*blushes* sorry, won't happen again. Just the natural flow of the conversation.