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Moroccan Gets 15 Years in 9-11 Trial

ShiningIce

3rd Level Green Feather
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HAMBURG, Germany - A Moroccan received the maximum 15-year sentence Wednesday for helping the al-Qaida hijackers who carried out the Sept. 11 attacks — the first conviction anywhere of a suspect in the terror plot against the United States.




Mounir el Motassadeq, 28, showed no emotion but occasionally shook his head or checked his watch as he listened to the verdict finding him guilty of more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder.


El Motassadeq helped pay tuition and rent for members of the Hamburg-based al-Qaida cell — allowing them to live as students as they plotted the attacks, prosecutors said.


Judge Albrecht Mentz said el Motassadeq lied when he testified he was unaware of the plot despite being close friends with suicide hijackers Mohamed Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi and other cell members.


The defendant was "a cog that kept the machinery going," Mentz said. He "belonged to this group since its inception. ... He knew and approved the key elements of the planned attacks."


Sept. 11 victims' relatives who participated in the trial as co-plaintiffs — some offering emotional testimony that Mentz said prompted him to impose the maximum sentence — praised the verdict.


Joan Molinaro of New York City said she was "thrilled."


"It's the first small victory we've had since 9/11," said Molinaro, whose firefighter son Carl was killed at the World Trade Center. "I kind of feel like, 'OK, Carl, we got one,'" she said. "I think my son is smiling."


Another New Yorker, Kathy Ashton — whose son Tommy was killed at the World Trade Center — called the 15-year sentence "a drop in the bucket, especially for a young man, but at least it's something."


Interior Minister Otto Schily hailed the verdict as a "success in the fight" against terror. "It is a warning to all those who think they can toy with the idea of aligning themselves with terrorist networks."


While suspects in the plot detained in the United States face possible death sentences if convicted, el Motassadeq's sentence — the maximum allowed under German law — translates into a minimum of 10 years with 15 months off for time served. Even defendants in Germany sentenced to life in prison generally serve at most 15 years.


El Motassadeq, a slight, bearded man who admitted receiving al-Qaida training in Afghanistan, denied the charges during his 3 1/2-month trial. The defense, which had argued the evidence was circumstantial, said it would appeal.


In addition to 3,066 counts of accessory to murder, el Motassadeq was convicted of five counts of being an accessory to attempted murder and an accessory to bodily injury — charges introduced so five wounded survivors of the attacks, including a Navy officer at the Pentagon, could join the trial as co-plaintiffs.


Mentz said it was hard to give a man with two small children the maximum sentence, but that he had to consider the enormity of the crime and el Motassadeq's lack of contrition even after American co-plaintiffs told the court of their suffering.


Witnesses illustrated el Motassadeq's enthusiasm for the plot, the judge said.


"Al-Shehhi said, 'There will be thousands of dead', and the defendant said, 'We will dance on their graves,'" Mentz said, citing witness testimony.


Schily said the penalty was severe, a judgment shared by a lawyer representing many of the more than 20 American family members and survivors who joined the prosecution in efforts to secure the maximum sentence.





"They wanted justice and they got justice," said lawyer Ulrich von Jeinsen. "They accept that we have another system and since he got the maximum sentence they will be satisfied."

Stephen Push, whose wife was killed in the plane that crashed into the Pentagon, also praised the Hamburg judges, but added: "I'm just disappointed that the German legal system doesn't allow for penalties that are appropriate for crimes of this nature."

El Motassadeq was raised in a Moroccan middle-class family, came to Germany as a student in 1993 and married a Russian woman. By 1995, he was studying electrical engineering in Hamburg, where he is believed to have first met Atta no later than the following year.

He acknowledged being friends with Atta, al-Shehhi and other alleged members of the Hamburg cell including suicide pilot Ziad Jarrah; and Ramzi Binalshibh, Said Bahaji and Zakariya Essabar, all suspected of helping organize the cell.

Witnesses said el Motassadeq was as radical as the rest of the group, often talking of jihad — holy war — and his hatred of Israel and the United States.

Prosecutors allege he used his power of attorney over al-Shehhi's bank account, to pay rent, tuition and utility bills, allowing the plotters to keep up the appearance of being normal students in Germany. They also noted that he signed Atta's will.

El Motassadeq explained both as things he simply did for friends.

He denied for nearly a year after his arrest ever having been to Afghanistan. But on the first day of trial, he admitted training in one of Osama bin Laden's camps there in 2000, saying he thought it was a Muslim's duty to learn self-defense.

In deciding to appeal, defense lawyers cited the court's failure to obtain testimony by Binalshibh and Mohammed Haydar Zammar, two friends who they said could exonerate the defendant.

Binalshibh, a Yemeni suspect in U.S. custody, is believed to have been the Hamburg cell's key contact with al-Qaida. Zammar, an alleged al-Qaida recruiter in Hamburg, is in prison in Syria.

Both Syria and the United States refused to release the men to testify, German authorities refused turn over their files on the two, saying transcripts of their interrogations were provided to them on condition they only be used for intelligence purposes.

Mentz rejected the defense argument. "The decision of a foreign government cannot be used in Germany as the grounds for an unfair trial," he said.
 
Oh great. That comes out to less than 2 days in prison for each person this animal assisted in slaughtering. Gee, WOW! (not!) :sowrong:

Thanks a lot, Germany... :mad:
 
What was there not to understand about "MAXIMUM (verdict) ALLOWED UNDER GERMAN LAW"? Sure, it seems way too low, but that's the way our system works. So you're welcome, U.S.A. Rest assured that he could have gotten away with far less of a sentence.
 
Marauder said:
What was there not to understand about "MAXIMUM (verdict) ALLOWED UNDER GERMAN LAW"? Sure, it seems way too low, but that's the way our system works. So you're welcome, U.S.A. Rest assured that he could have gotten away with far less of a sentence.


But I must wonder if it would have been the same sentance if 9/11 happened in Germany, or would the prosecution try to press for a harder sentance?
 
Ticklemaster, our law system is different from the Anglo-American case law. It sets specific minimum and maximum penalties which can't be exceeded. Unless a special "Lex 9/11" is agreed upon in parliament, the law will remain unchanged.

Personally I think that the law wasn't designed for thousandfold mass murder, and that he should have got a life sentence, but I'm not a decision-maker or a law expert.
 
Marauder said:
What was there not to understand about "MAXIMUM (verdict) ALLOWED UNDER GERMAN LAW"? Sure, it seems way too low, but that's the way our system works. So you're welcome, U.S.A. Rest assured that he could have gotten away with far less of a sentence.


I understand "MAXIMUM (verdict) ALLOWED UNDER GERMAN LAW" quite well, thank you. What I fail to understand is the reason why this man is being tried in Germany as an accessory to murders which occurred in the UNITED STATES.

Also, I take significant umbrage at Judge Mentz's comments that it is "hard to give a man with two small children the maximum sentence." Why is it hard? He assisted in the MURDER of more than 3000 people! Why show such solicitude towards such a vile individual?
 
asutickler said:
Also, I take significant umbrage at Judge Mentz's comments that it is "hard to give a man with two small children the maximum sentence." Why is it hard? He assisted in the MURDER of more than 3000 people! Why show such solicitude towards such a vile individual?

Simple: As a human being, the man deserves to be treated as such. By treating even those who broke the law as fellow humans, and by removing them from society (as they have proven unfit to co-exist with their fellow human beings) instead of physically harming them out of thirst for revenge, we set ourselves apart from them. Kill a murderer, and you're still a murderer. It's compassion that makes us fit to live as social beings.

And, as Hal said, the sheer magnitude of the crime is far beyond the scale of current law. But laws can't be bent, broken or altered at whim. The minimum/maximum sentences anchored in German law are there for a reason, though many are in desperate need of alteration.

As to why he wasn't tried in the U.S.: He committed his crime here, not in your country. He was an accessory to multiple murder, not a murderer. He didn't fly the plane. His crime was to help the people who did, and this help was given in Germany, not the states.
 
I agree asutickler the man should have received the maximum. He help kill 3000 people and that deserves the maximum sentence. He didn't think of his family when he help plan this. Why should we? Does this mean if I want to commit some horrible acts against humanity I just need to get some kids so I can get off real easy.

He is my opinion a no good filthy murderer. He deserves no less than to die. At the very least he should have gotten the maximum sentence in germany.
 
kurchatovium said:
At the very least he should have gotten the maximum sentence in germany.

...he did


Krokus: please enlighten us all with the other reasons to despise Germany.
 
I think he did not for the judge said "hard to give a man with two small children the maximum sentence.". So from that statement I would say he did not receive the maximum sentence available in Germany. Am I right or am I missing something?
 
kurchatovium said:
I think he did not for the judge said "hard to give a man with two small children the maximum sentence.". So from that statement I would say he did not receive the maximum sentence available in Germany. Am I right or am I missing something?

Well at the very least, I am hopeful that he can be extridited to the US, and seeing that the attack happened on US soil, it should not be hard, but I think he would need to complete his sentance in Germany first.
 
Krokus said:


Well, they are hands down, the most ungrateful country in the world. I swear, when all the other country's in this world need help, we are the first ones asked, but when we need help, they scamper like lil' bastard guys.


I have to respectfully disagree. The most ungrateful nation, in my opinion, has to be China
 
Here we go with the "scampering", "cowardice" and even *gasp* "TREACHERY" (oh boy...) again...

It's really infantile to see that the most powerful nation in the world starts pouting when someone is of a different opinion. Nobody is running away when you need help. You don't need help. And we're not running. Until now, there IS NO WAR happening in Iraq. We are saying we think war is a bad idea. You react as if we started shipping your soldiers poisoned Sauerkraut to sabotage the war effort. This is pathetic. For crying out loud, all we did was say "We don't want to go to war". If you'd been attacked, we'd have sent you support at once, as we did after 9-11. Remember? We actually helped you back then, and nobody ran. This time, you say "War", we say "No". So? People have different opinions. So do governments. Good lord, learn to cope!

The Most Ungrateful Nation in the World would be Brainania. After receiving huge support payments, their leader completely failed to build the giant cloth dryer.

Re-iterating: The man DID receive the maximum sentence.

And we're NOT going to send him over to the states after serving his sentence, that's a solid fact. No man can be tried for the same crime twice.
 
Marauder said:


Re-iterating: The man DID receive the maximum sentence.

And we're NOT going to send him over to the states after serving his sentence, that's a solid fact. No man can be tried for the same crime twice.

I think there are some provisions for aiding a foreign enemy and an act-of-war
 
Ticklemaster750 said:
I think there are some provisions for aiding a foreign enemy and an act-of-war
That holds only if a state of war is declared and martial law overrules civil law. That's not the case. And even then, he would have to be treated as POW under the Geneva convention.

Besides, we don't extradite convicts to any country where he/she faces the death penalty. That's part of our law as well.

Don't get so hot about other countries' laws. You've no right to apply your American law (which has its own deficiencies, BTW) to the whole world. And I'm glad about that!
 
Haltickling said:

Don't get so hot about other countries' laws. You've no right to apply your American law (which has its own deficiencies, BTW) to the whole world. And I'm glad about that!



Well then, why does all of Europe tend to "get so hot" whenever we execute a European citizen who is convicted of murder, hmmm? I mean, y'all have no right to apply your laws to the whole world... And I'm DEFINITELY glad about that!

I sincerely hope Mounir el Motassadeq dosen't survive his incarceration... :sowrong:
 
Points well made on both sides, but I've observed a digusting trend in the growth of this thread from both sides.

The man committed a horrible crime. The German government acknowledges that the man is GUILTY in assisting in the murder of THOUSANDS of children, men and women. There is not a dispute there. Everyone here sees the guilty verdict or he would have walked free.

Problem?

The conversation went from, WHY the punishment was correct or offensive to why GERMANS and AMERICANS are correct or offensive.

As Americans, we feel the meximum punishment set forth for crimes under this charge in Germany is insufficent for the act. It's not legally wrong in our eyes. It's morally wrong. Call it our big evil ego, or our need for "revenge," but we're still disgusted that a man would serve less than 15 years after being found guilty of helping to kill so many people. I can't wrap my brain around it. I can't justify it. I've backed off my need to fry the bastards, but for him to serve such a little sentence saddens me. The Gulf War was only 12 years ago. Seems like yesterday....and yet...this man will be back on the street for the next round of affairs. :(

I can respect the fact that he received the maximum penalty under German law. It's better than most Americans even expected I think. What I'd like to know is why the German reps here find compassion for the soul of the guilty in question, but can't find it for the people with whom they are conversing here? If you could just TRY to understand the hurt and passion of the people here in this thread, you'd probably see a huge backing down of the anti-German sense that has grown in this conversation. I think this thought applies to the whole world, not just to this thread. We all know how to soothe the grieving, don't we? *hint-alot of Americans are STILL grieving the loss*

This thread would be a lot more intersting if Hal or Marauder could enlighten those of us not from their home as to law's background. Or perhaps if there are other cases in which heinous crimes were comitted and heavier punishments set out. A discussion of thhe merits of the law....why it's morally acceptable that he get such a short time, not just saying "it's the law" since ther are a lot of conversations on this board about American law and the WHYS And HOWS behind them. I'm genuinely curious as to WHY and HOW this is an acceptable decision far beyond that is is "The Law."

BLAH....don't know why I'm bothering....As most threads on the TMF lately, this will probably degenerate into a pissing contest rather than a conversation. :(

Joby
 
Personally, I find compassion for everyone in my heart. This fails only if I was personally on the receiving end of a gross injustice, or if the person who was victimized was close to me. In those cases, I completely fail to live up to my oh-so-high moral standards and turn vigilante. This is NOT a good character trait. Aside from the illegal nature of selfmade justice, it is a morally wrong act. I realize this whenever I'm not out for blood, which is fortunately almost all of the time. Acting on impulse and out of spite or revenge is always wrong. No morally or ethically sound decisions can be made when one's seeing red. So, yes, I understand the need for revenge, but this need has to be overcome.

I have respect and compassion for the victims of 9/11. I also have respect and compassion for the relatives of said victims, for their friends, colleagues and aquaintances, as for all the people who grief their deaths.

I have compassion too (though no respect) for the people who planned, committed and supported the crime. They are still human beings. Misguided human beings who need to be removed from society. If I were to make the law, I'd give them all a life sentence in single cells. I'd also give them access to cyanide pills. That way, it's their own choice whether to whither away or to end their lifes. Their actions didn't catapult them beyond the boundaries of humanity, they merely made them infinitely unfit to co-exist in any kind of society. But kill them? No, that's the exact reason why those planes struck the towers. They also thought they were killing for a reason. So do the suicide bombers in Israel. Killing is never a supportable deed, and the only person to decide upon the premature ending of a human beings life is the human being itself.

As for Europe making a fuss about European citizens being executed in the states - well, I never did. If you go to a country that has the death penalty and are convicted of a crime that demands capital punishment, it's your own fault. Me, I tread very very lightly when in any country with draconic justice systems. I sure as hell was extremely careful while in the U.S., and will remain thus (I look conspicious enough as it is...) when I visit the U.S. next time. This is the place where I should add that I still like the United States very much indeed. I can still sing the "Star Spangled Banner", know all the rules for football and my favorite beverage is Root Beer. My constant bickering lately isn't spawned by a failure to like the U.S. or loyalty to Germany but by the unfortunate intensity of the arguments and the mindless Euro-bashing that has come to pass. What we need is understanding, willingness to compromise and diplomacy, not a back-and-forth exchange of animosity and vitriol. By using every opportunity to paint the U.S. as a nation of warmongers, Europe does a gross injustice to the majority of U.S. citizens. By accusing Europe of treason and cowardice, the same injustice is done to the majority of Europe's citizens. The direct consequence of these narrow-minded, generalized accusations is a growing number of people who pick up and wave the hate flag and start spewing the same type of inflammatory generalizations. In the end, we all hate each other's guts, and everyone loses. I don't want that to happen. I don't want to have anyone snarl at me as soon as I say I'm German. Neither do I want to calmly explain to Anti-War activists here that, yes, I like the U.S. and no, I'm not a baby killer because of it.

All this arguing, and for what?
 
Over 3000 counts of murder or accessory to murder.
5 counts of attempted murder and 2 counts of assult gets you a mere 15 friggin years in jail! WHAT THE F*C*!!!!
I guess Germany is the place to go for mass murder and assult trials!

This is a pathetic world.

When is the next shuttle to a space station on some distant planet!?

Beam me up , there is truly NO intelligent life down here!

TTD:sowrong: :mad:
 
Marauder said:
What was there not to understand about "MAXIMUM (verdict) ALLOWED UNDER GERMAN LAW"? Sure, it seems way too low, but that's the way our system works. So you're welcome, U.S.A. Rest assured that he could have gotten away with far less of a sentence.

I fully understand, Marauder, they threw the book at him as hard as they could, I see that. He DID receive the maximum, after all, and certanly members of the EU also died in 9/11. I wonder, persoanlly if he couldn't have been charged with something with a harsher sentance, did the evidence not support this? But that's not my judgement towards you or your country.

That's what irks me about people who say the U.S response in Afghanistan was too harsh or went on too long, or the war on terror is misguided. These people didn't kill the white Christian leadership elite of the U.S in those buildings. They didn't kill a cross section of the U.S. in those buildings. They killed a cross section of THE WORLD.
 
Well, there you have it - the U.S.A. had a chance to show the world - including Germany - how it handles terrorist conspirators. What the world is 'supposed' to do - and Zac gets to live another day!

Now, how many hostages are going to be taken, worldwide, for people wanting freedom for their "brother" Moussaoui for the next 20-50 years? Putting him in jail forever just made him the new Rudolph Hess martyr for those who are sympathetic to his cause.

The case also shows how, while people shed tears and howl against cancer and muscular dystrophy, when it comes to a mental illness (which is just a physical illness at the tinest, molecular/checmical level) it's all about looking the other way until someone does something crazy, then laying it ALL on the back of that person.
 
Last edited:
He should have stood trial in the US. The harm he did was here. Justice would be better served if we determined his guilt/innocense and any subseqent penalty.

Personally, I'd be okay with a fifteen year sentence if he served it in the general population of a US prison. Preferably in Arizona, or maybe Texas. I think the guys might be a little bored with the run of the mill punks they get to play with on a day-to-day basis.
 
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