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Part 2 of World corruption, lying politicians and the tragedy of 9/11.

BigJim

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If you havn't read the first main thread in this series, then you really should to get an idea of how I got ono this subject matter. Click on this link to find it.http://www.ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28158



In this thread I'll be writing about the Bush family mainly, and the sort of activity they get up to, when they're not inventing wars. This doesn't mean that they're the only "I-Word" family who does this, just that they're the most prominent family in the most prominent country of the world today.
Most people accept that there is "some" corruption in politics, but I seriously doubt if they know what their leaders get up to. So before we go through the utter fairytale of the official explanation of 9/11, let's have a peek at some of the peeps.
These people are the ones who tell us about what "officially" happened on that awful day, they also tell us who did it and what action we should be taking as a result. Wouldn't it be a good idea to know a bit about their backgrounds first?
One thing to remember though is that "public" people are nowhere near as powerful in world affairs as the public thinks they are. They are being dictated to by other further up the "Illuminati" hierarchy. Here we go.................


The Bush family has been quite prominent as public faces to the "Illuminati" at a public level, for most of the 20th Century and into the 21st. The most graphic achievement of them is to have produced two Presidents of the US from their ranks. As both are called George Bush, I'll always refer to the current Pres as "Dubya". As Presidents go George senior is quite high up the ladder of the Illuminati. It's more usual for a Pres to be more of a puppet, than someone who actually means something in the hierarchy. A President on the public stage is more like a lieutenant or a captain than a colonel or general in the Illuminati ranks. Of course his son Dubya, has just about got the brainpower to put his underpants on the right way round. (Without having to pull them on over his head.)
George senior and his wife Barbara have a common genetic descent from a bloke called Godfroi de Boullion; who was well known for leading a Christian crusade in 1099 against the Islamic faith, to recapture Jerusalem. With that done, he parked his bum in the king's palace on Temple Mount. This particular place has been an obsession for the "Illuminati" throughout history and is the alleged site for Solomon's Temple. When you take that into account it's not difficult to understand why that area has had such a tragic history for Muslims, Christians and Jews. Godfroi de Boullion was the first King of Jerusalem and also held the title Duke of Lower Lorraine. (The Alsace-Lorraine region is a big centre for "Illuminati" activity.) So when Dubya, who is a descendant of GDB through both his mother AND father talked of a "crusade" against "Islamic terrorism" it wasn't a verbal gaffe, like we'd usually expect from the man. It was a calculated statement. From the original crusade came the order known as The Knights Templar, who are still a major player in world events today. (It was from them that the Sacred Scottish Rite of Freemasonry evolved and they count among their ranks some of the biggest and most important, media, banking, political and business heads in the world.)
George and Barbara Bush come from an "Illuminati" family called Pierce that was originally called Percy, before fashionably changing it's name after leaving England in 1605. This was because Thomas Percy (a major Bush ancestor) was one of the main plotters. George and Barbara of the same line as former US President Franklin Pierce, who was in the White House from 1853 to 1857. Other blood relatives of the Bushes include the Grosvenor families of America and England, the Tafts of Ohio (who sired William Howard Taft who was the Pres from 1909 to 1913), and the Delano-Rossevelts who also produced two Presidents. (Franklin 1933-1945 and Theodore 1901-19. *broken, not consecutive terms*)
English Grosvenors include the Duke of Westminster who owns significant properties in the City of London, one of, if not the BIGGEST centre for secret societies in the entire world. The American Grosvenors are most famous for founding the National Geographic, which is notorious for plundering archaeological treasures from all round the world (especially those with religious significance) and placing them in the Smithsonian Institute in Washington D.C. This institute is controlled by the Grosvenor's cousins the Smithsons, who are descended from the Percy line which gave birth to the Bushes. Both Georges can also trace their lineage to Charlemagne and King Alfred the great. (34 of the 43 Presidents can be directly traced to Charlemagne.) With both of them having such a mass of royal and aristocratic connections, Dubya is a very well connected person indeed. Even more so when you consider that his father has business dealings with the Queen of England, who is his 13th cousin once removed. Apparently the Windsors and the Bushes are very closely connected.

The Bush family has long been closely connected with the Skull & Bones society at Yale University in Connecticut. This is a junior version of the more well known societies at adult level throughout the world and is based in a windowless mausoleum known as "The Tomb" which is adjacent to the Yale campus. Every year 15 young students (all of them from one of these families) are initiated into the society. (in a ceremony that involved lying naked in a coffin, with a black ribbon tied around their John Thomas, shouting about their sexual conquests while briskly jerking the gherkin) The amount of Skull and Bones members who subsequently leave Yale and go into positions of media, banking, military and political power is staggering, to say the least. Dubya, George senior and his father Prescott Bush are all Bonesmen. Prescott was most famous in the society for being part of the gang who raided the grave of Geronimo, the Apache leader. (This was in May 1918.) The group took turns robbing the grave at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, while one of their number stood watch. The skull and other trinkets from the tomb were taken back to Yale and used in various sick-minded ceremonies. This was revealed to a man called Ned Anderson (the Tribal Chairman of the San Carlos Apache tribe) when he was negotiating to have the old chief's remains returned to the tribe. A 1989 article in the New Yorker said that he saw "about 30 skulls, not all of them human" scattered about the "Tomb" at Yale. This is the mentality of the people who contest for your vote every 4 years! Nice eh?

The Bush family also has a very long history of attendance at a place called "Bohemian Grove" which is a private estate near Monte Rio in Sonoma County. This is about 70-80 miles north of San Francisco and is set in 2,700 acres of redwood forest. Every July this place opens for members of these families and their close associates. It becomes a ritual and sexual playground (think Eyes Wide Shut X100 and a whole lot sicker) for American and foreign politicians, mobsters, bankers, businessmen, media magnates and entertainers. They are all initiates of the various secret societies and private groups like the Bilderbergers, or serve the "Illuminati" in some form or another. Among the attendees who have been to this place are Jimmy Carter, Ronald Regan, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, George Schultz, Casper Weinberger, James Baker, Alexander Haig, Alan Greenspan, Walter Cronkite and David Rockefeller.

So why hasn't this ever been reported and publicized? Well it has................sort of. In 1991's July sexual-free-for-all season, Dirk Mathison, the San Francisco Bureau Chief of People magazine sneaked into the grove on a total of 3 occasions. (He's bloody braver than I am!!!) For those of you who don't know, People magazine is owned by Time-Warner, which is an Illuminati front. Well on the third time he was spotted by an exec who worked for Time Warner and thrown out. Subsequently his story was vigorously suppressed. Mathison said that an attendee called John Lehman (a former secretary of the navy) was giving a speech talking about 200,000 Iraqi casualties in the first Gulf War. A figure that hadn't been publicized. Another speaker that year was one Al Neuharth, the founder of USA Today, who was identified in the official programe as the chairman of the Freedom Foundation. You know the significance of that? The Freedom Foundation is an organisation (worth $700 million) that is dedicated to the free press! AAARRRGGGHHH!!!! Somebody call the cops! Oh shit, the chief of the police was probably there too! *shrugs* If you want an in-depth look at the goings on at Bohemian Grove, then try reading a book called Trance-Formation Of America by Cathy O'Brien. She was apparently a servant of these people for close to 3 decades. IF what she talks about is true, then every member of the American public should seriously start shitting in their shorts right about now! Some of the "ceremonies" she describes can be identified with most people would regard as "Satanism". I'm sure you can imagine the sort of thing. Goat's blood, severed chicken heads, sexual whasnames in various positions etc. And we thought WE were perverted for loving tickling? But it gets worse........................
In 2000 an American talk-show host called Alex Jones sneaked into the grove equipped with a souped-up camera and a super long-range lens. The picture he took that was only circulated through low circulation newsletters and newsgroups (I simply can't imagine why it wasn't on CNN) was of a group of robed and hooded people conducting a ritual in a clearing with a fire and a 40 foot high stone owl! What was going on has since been described as "the Cremation of Care", which is some sort of Babylonian ritual. The 40-foot owl was symbolic of Moloch, an ancient Babylonian deity who was renowned for eating children. Ewww. Charming eh? If you want to see this footage (I'm told the sound quality is quite good) then I think it can be bought from www.infowars.com. If you want to see that this is for real, check it out.

Okay, now comes the seriously scary shit. Among the most prolific activities of the Bush family (especially George senior) is the putting of illegal drugs like cocaine and heroin onto the streets of America. (Not to mention the rest of the world.) It was he "Illuminati" families in the UK and US who started the whole drugs trade and still maintain it. (A good example being the UK's notorious desecration of China in the 18th and 19th century opium wars.) These buttwipes use their government agencies to "bust" any of the opposition and leave the business wide open for themselves. So when you hear news about the coastguard busting a boat full of Colombian cocaine or a "major drugs find" on the streets of LA, it's not at all. If anything it's bad, because it's leaving the field freer for the major players to control. The real bastards never get touched because they also control the law enforcement authorities. This narcotics network not only pours fund into their coffers, it destroys lives on a massive Death Star like scale. Not only that but it creates a massive scale divide-and-rule through the colossal division and crime by those who lie, cheat and steal to try to fund their habits. For instance, the Skull & Bones society is owned by the Russell Trust, an organisation owned and controlled by the Russell's, another Illuminati family. These people flew the skull and bones flag on their ships as they transported drugs for the British Empire from Turkey to China and elsewhere during the aforementioned Opium Wars. The "Skull & Bones" is another ancient "Illuminati" symbol that is frequently used in its secret codes and languages. One of the biggest proponents of this are the Knights Templar, under their more modern pseudonyms. Samuel Russell created Russell and Company in 1823 and within only 7 years it had absorbed the Perkin opium syndicate based in Masachussets. (sp?) Russell's chief bod in Canton, China was a certain Warren Delano Jr. who was the grandfather of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the future President. FDR was not only related to the Bush family, he was also a cousin of Winston Churchill, Britain's Prime Minister during the same period. Others from these families were associates of this drugs network. Coolidge, Forbes, Perkins, Low and Sturgis. It was Sam Russell's cousin William Huntingdon and the relation of the Bushes, Alphonso Taft (father of future President William Howard Taft) who created the Order of the Skull and Bones at Yale in 1832 and conscripted America's major bloodline students into it. These families are names that have dominated American government, business, finance, banking and intelligence agencies. Rockefeller, Harriman, Taft, Lord, Kellogg, Goodyear, Whitney, Vanderbilt, Bundy, Sloane, Perkins and Bush. It's a Who's Who of American prominence. More information on the side of narcotics and narcotics trafficking will go up in the future. There is so much to wade through that I'll have to selectively edit it, or I might just as well start my own damn web-site.

Talking of the Bushes, let's go onto Prescott Bush; grandfather of the current President. (Who was also a partner of President Dwight D. Eisenhower.) Eisenhower was a man like Colin Powell, who enjoyed incredible success from his "Illuminati" connections. But Ike's career faltered somewhat after he publicly warned about the dangers posed by the "Military-Industrial Complex", in the last few days of his administration. Strange that, eh?
Prescott was a very big fan of the eugenics movement (master race engineering) along with some of his closest friend in the "Illuminati", the Rockefellers and the Harrimans. It was this sorry bunch (masterminded by the Rockefellers) who funded the work of Adolf Hitler's buddy, Ernst Rudin. (A genetic purity scientist.) This was such a big deal that Rudin ended up occupying an entire floor of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Genealogy and Demography, situated in the German capital, Berlin. Shortly after Hitler's abolition of the ballot box in 1933, the Rockefeller funded and Bush-Harriman supported Dr. Rudin was ordered to begin work on the Law for the Prevention of Hereditary Diseases Posterity. This involved the forced sterilsation of anyone considered genetically inferior and was repeated in America in the 1950's with any child who scored below a certain IQ. I've talked about that in more detail in the other threads. George senior's massive funding of "Population Control" programs is a modern equivalent of this sick obsession. (Harry Truman, President at the time of the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was also a cousin of the Rockefeller family BTW.)
Anyone who's read my posts saying that both sides were funded by the same people in both world wars, probably won't be surprised to learn that one of Hitler's major financiers was Prescott Bush. He did this through a company called the Union Banking Corporation. Fritz Thyssen, an entrepreneur in the German steel industry and also banking, funded the Nazis from the early 1920's. His banking setup in the Fatherland was closely connected through a subsidiary to the W.A. Harriman company in New York. (Called Brown Brothers before 1933.) This was funded (certainly more detectably in the early days) by the House of Rothschild. (Another big family who have ruthlessly exploited innocent Jewish people and then slung the moniker of "anti-Semite" at anyone who's tried to expose them. Well if they were such a good, Jewish family, why did they offer to invest money held in Swiss bank accounts that was taken from Jewish people pre-World War 2 and invest it in the apartheid regime in South Africa? These bastards are some of the biggest exploiters of Jewish people since the war!) The Harriman family's other pet project, had been supporting the Russian Revolution, and also Adolf Hitler and the eugenics insanity. It was a Fritz Thyssen company that controlled the Union Banking Corporation in the US, and a certain E. Ronald Harriman (another member of the Skull & Bones Society) was on its board, with other Nazis and nazi financiers. Prescott Bush was also on the board and owed his secure financial position to the Harrimans.
The connection between Bush and the Nazis was put under the spotlight more recently by John Loftus, who is the President of the Florida Holocaust Museum. He pointed out that Prescott Bush derived a significant portion of his money from a connection he had with a Nazi controlled bank. Loftus (who used to be employed as a prosecutor in the Justice Department's Nazi War Crimes Unit 100% confirmed that Prescott Bush was a senior principal in the Union Banking Corporation (located in Manhattan) during the 1930's and the 1940's. and that the bank was owned at the time, lock stock and barrel, by leading Nazi industrialists. He said that money was being ploughed into the UBC via a bank secretly located in Holland and that this continued long after the United States had declared law on Germany. The bank was wound up in 1951 and Prescott Bush received $1,500,000 as part of the dissolution arrangement. Loftus goes on to say that he has a pile of paperwork "this thick" that links Bush and the bank, to Nazi funding.
"That's where the Bush family's fortune came from. It came from the Third Reich." That remark came from a speech Loftus gave in the Sarasota Reading Festival. He also wrote a book called 'Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis And Swiss Banks'. (One to check for those of you looking for reading material on this subject. JoBelle sweetie, you hear that? Loftus documented the Swiss bank accounts that were used to store funds confiscated from concentration camp victims, and also the involvement of Italian priests in smuggling Nazi war criminals to safety in boltholes located in Canada, Central and South America and the United States after the war. coughcoughPROJECTPAPERCLIPcoughcough
One member of the Floridian audience who was listening to Loftus speak, (one Nancy Krauss from Punta Gorda) said... "I am absolutely shocked. I wish this had come out before the election. My husband voted for Bush. I don't think he would have voted for him if he had known."
And that's the whole point. If more people in the world knew exactly what the Bush family had gotten up to and the extent of their infliction of misery on innocent people, the whole lot would be thrown into jail and the key would go up with the next shuttle.
Now let's move on to the funding of the Russian Revolution. The Harrimans and their close buddy, Prescott Bush, also funded this. E. Ronald Harriman was the brother of W. Averill Harriman (another member of the Skull and Bones Society) who was a director of a company called the Guaranty Trust, which was providing funds to Lenin and Trotsky when they were orchestrating the October 1917 uprising. Half or more of the board members of the Brown Brothers Harriman and their buddies in funding the communists, J.P.Morgan, another load of Skull and Bones initiates. Roland Harriman, Prescott Bush and Percy Rockefeller were all in exactly the same group of Bonesmen initiates. Averill Harriman would make huge amounts of money from Russian financial ventures in later years (sort of the Henry Kissinger of his day) and would also land the job of American Ambassador to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Wonderful way of advancing the Illuminati agenda in that country eh? Reading that little lot are you now so sure that the US and Soviet governments were on "opposing" sides during the Cold War? Hardly. The buggers couldn't have been more closely connected if they'd been Siamese twins. One thing on the surface for the masses to be taken in by, a whole different story underneath. And these countries invested billions making arms dealers and companies rich, instead of providing better lives for their citizens. But then of course, they didn't give a shit about their citizens so long as they were always there to provide a reasonably unlimited source of labour and fodder for their ridiculous wars.
Averill Harriman was also a covert voice of authority in the Democratic Party and the main puller of President Roosevelt's strings during his time in office. Harriman had a wife called Pamela who lasted a long time in political circles herself. At the time of her death in 1997 she was the US Ambassador to Paris and a major manipulator behind the scenes in Bill Clinton's rise to power. (The chief reason she was made French Ambassador. He owed her a favour. Oddly enough (and things are not usually "normal" in this tale) her husband Averill was a big time motivator to Prescott Bush and much later, to the Bush family in general. Now this lot are reputedly Republicans, but Averill Harriman was "officially" a Democrat. Not the first time the official line has been utter bollocks and it won't be the last either...
Pamela Harriman was also married to one Randolph Churchill who was the son of Winston Churchill; Prime Minister of Britain during World War 2, an offshoot member of the noble Marlborough family and a cousin of Franklin Roosevelt. She was also known to have had affairs with Giovanni Agnelli the boss of the car company, Fiat; and also with Baron Elie de Rothschild: both of them big-time Illuminati people. You have to admit it's a damn small world when you're dealing with the "Illuminati".

Into this melting pot of genetics and political intrigue, was born a certain George Herbert Walker Bush on the 12 of June 1924. From the day of his spawning he was groomed to perform a number of roles for the "Illuminati". Among his public jobs have been US Ambassador to the UN, Chairman of the Republican Party (at the time of the Watergate scandal), Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, Vice President and President of the United States of America. (Although in truth he was President in all but name for 12 years. The rapidly getting more senile by the day Regan, was even more of a puppet than most Presidents.)
His middle names come from his grandfather George Herbert Walker (unsurprisingly a member of the Skull & Bones society at Yale) who was another bedfellow of Prescott Bush in the orchestration of the Russian Revolution, the propagation of the sick-minded eugenics movement and the financial backing of Adolph Hitler. IN the sport of Golf a competition called the Walker Cup is named after him. Wherever you look in the life of George Bush you will always find "Illuminati" people, child abusers, manipulators of humanitarian disaster and more. It follows him and his associates like the stink on a plague rat. George Bush himself is all of these things. In the future, I will be going into his past in particular, with a fine-toothed comb. George senior not only controlled Regan; he is very much the power behind the throne in the presidency of his witless son. Here is a brief summary of the crimes that form a background to George senior in particular, and his immediate senior in the "Illuminati" ladder, Henry Kissinger. This will give you a quick deck at the mentality behind the creation of the 9/11 tragedy and the subsequent actions of Project TWAT.
Bush senior served the "Illuminati" in China while Kissinger and the Chinese were busy propping up the regime of Pol Pot during the massacre of God alone knows how many innocent Cambodians. Certainly you could count their numbers in millions. He returned to the USA in 1975 when Kissinger sent him a telegram telling him that he was being nominated by President Ford (or in other words, Kissinger himself) to be appointed Director of the CIA. Bush held this post through to 1977 and is even no so deeply involved with the agencies activities that it's HQ at Langley was named the George Bush Centre for Intelligence. (Kind of a misnomer when you think about the current President. Maybe George junior should join. He could definitely use some.)
The CIA is a segment of the reputed "inner fed" of the secret government that also consists of the NSA, FBI, NASA and the Federal Reserve. (The cartel of privately owned banks that most American believe is a state owned resource or "Central Bank".) It is through so an interconnected weaving of apparently unconnected departments and agencies, that the incredible coordination that most people believe is too difficult for a worldwide conspiracy, can take place. Once again we're seeing the overall pyramid that enclose all the other smaller ones. A huge portion of the funding for this stuff comes from the drugs trade, which the intelligence agencies and the "Illuminati" families like the Bushes manipulate. Without so many weak minded idiots happily pumping their arms and nostrils full of death every day, this structure would groan under it's own, teetering weight. If you're a drug user, remember that next time you go for the powder, pills or whatever. Not only are you fucking up your own body and life, you're helping to propagate an evil system of covert control as well.
Even before his 1977 appointment, George Senior had direct connection with the intelligence community. In fact, it can be traced back to his time at Yale if you include the Skull & Bones connections to the web.
In Russell S. Bowen's book 'The Immaculate Deception', he names George senior as a senior agent of the community even back before the agency's botched operation in the Bay of Pigs on the 17th of April, 1961. That particular incident turned President Kennedy's attention towards reform and restructuring of the CIA. He had great plans for its breakup and lessening of its power apparently. Makes you wonder doesn't it? If it doesn't, it should. Bowen was an ex-Brigadier General and had done plenty of the Bush family's clearing up before. He says that Bush worked with a bloke named Felix Rodriguez and a gang of other anti-Castro Cubans. Here comes another coincidence. The restricted code name for the Bay of Pigs invasion was 'Operation Zapata'. And the name of George Bush's oil company? Zapata Oil!!!!! Hold me back, I think I'm gonna faint! Rodriguez would later show his face again during the Iran-contra scandal. This incident was the direct cause for COLLOSSAL amounts of hard drugs being made available to young people on the streets of the United States. Remember that next time you think about voting for people like this.
And if you want even more coincidences, get a load of this lot! A large amount of people involved in the Plumbers Group that broke into the Watergate Building, were also involved in the Bay of Pigs fuck-up. (Not to mention being involved in the Kennedy assassination too!) William Buckley (a coordinator who worked for the CIA) once said that if he told all he knew about the Bay of Pigs and Kennedy killing, it would "be the biggest scandal ever to rock the nation". Buckley was later murdered in the Middle East. Just a coincidence, nothing to worry about. There is plenty of evidence to support the theory that George Bush Senior was a CIA asset long before the Kennedy assassination, during which time the family friend and supporter of Adolph Hitler, Allen Dulles, was the head of the CIA. Not only are the Dulles family bloodline "Illuminati", they are cousins to the Rockefellers. Not surprised? Nah, me neither. JFK sacked Allen Dulles and was planning further purges that would have shattered the control network of the CIA into infinitesimally small shards. Before he could complete the operation though, he had his head blown to pieces in Dealey Plaza in Texas November 1963. This same Allen Dulles was then appointed to sever on the Warren Commission. You see the irony here? The very man who was almost certainly involved in the planning of the killing was on the board of enquiry that reached a ludicrous "official" ruling on how it was carried out. The hypocrisy and criminality here runs deep.

From his HQ at Langley in Virginia, George Bush formed a team of people to administrate his CIA role. One of these was Theodore Shackley, who was made the agency's deputy director for covert operations. Shackley was head of the CIA station in Miami during the 1960's, where E.Howard Hunt and his fellow Watergate sneaks would later sprout from. During the Vietnam War he was head of the Saigon station. From here he masterminded the infamous "Operation Phoenix". This involved the systematic killing of tens of thousands of Vietnamese civilians who were suspected of working for the Viet Cong. (Being literate was usually acceptable evidence of this guilt.) Shackley ran a massive drug running and assassination operation from Saigon and two names involved with him were two close Associates of George Bush; Felix Rodriguez and Donald Gregg. This operation came under a serious threat when JFK started the process of withdrawing the US from Vietnam. That whole war was orchestrated like all the rest and resulted in the deaths of 50,000 Americans and over 2,000,000 Vietnamese.
This Theodore Shackley was then appointed by George senior to an important position within the CIA when it was within his jurisdiction and would later be given more employment as a speech writer to Bush, during the election campaign of 1979-1980 in which Bush gained himself the Vice-President's position. (Although in reality he was the boss, while the near senile Regan stumbled through his lines each day. (That Robin Williams impression springs to mind right now. "Nancy and I are still looking for the other half of my head."
After he "retired" from service to George Bush, Shackley went to live in Medellin, Columbia. A town that is home to a huge drug cartel. Kind of fitting really, in a sick, perverse kind of way. Another name that comes out of the hat is Thomas Clines. He was a former 2IC of the Miami CIA station and yet another Bush CIA appointee who was up to his neck in the Iran-Contra affair. Yet when the storm broke publicly, Bush declared he knew nothing about Iran-Contra. George Bush you are a lying bastard and not even a very good one. However you are in good and multitudinous company, because many more lying bastards with little talent for subterfuge are to come.
While Bush was the boss of the CIA, his agents knew they could get away with murder, because their director was a master at looking the other way. He held a massive amount of clout in the intelligence community because of the way that Gerald Ford, a seriously sick man with a nasty habit of raping women and abusing children, ran the business. (Yup, that's another whole 8000 word post just describing that lot! Abuse of women and children is more widespread than brown envelopes around these guys.)
An article about this very subject in the New York Times said that Ford had..."centralized more power in the hands of the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency than any had had, since the creation of the CIA. Among the placemen Bush had in South America was the evil Nazi "Butcher of Lyon", Klaus Barbie, who had jumped ship from Europe thanks to help from US intelligence. It was this bugger who was the brains behind the so-called "cocaine coup" incident of June 1980(in Bolivia), when the profit money from CIA aided drug networks financed a neo-nazi style overthrow of the Argentinean government. This is further supported by Mike Levine, a former US Drug Enforcement agent who reported seeing the overthrowing troops wearing swastika armbands.
And let's now branch into religion; that so often manipulated side of life. An organisation closely connected to Bush senior is the Moonie Church of Sun Myung Moon. (Notice his first name and it's connection with my writings about the importance of sun symbolism in pagan and modern religions?) The Moonie Church is connected not just to Bush, but to many hi-vis political personages around the world, among whom is Ted Heath; the British Prime Minister between 1970 and 1974 and the man who delivered the UK trussed, apple in mouth and legs wide apart for systematic anal raping by the EEC, soon to be the the EU. Bo Hi Pak (Moon's 2IC in his church) was among the first vultures to gather round the carcass when the shit storm hit La Paz after the 'cocaine coup' incident. Moon had invested four million dollars in the coup and coincidentally enough went on to heavily finance George Bush's presidential campaign in 1988. The Washington Times newspaper (an ardent admirer and supporter of Bush politics) is owned by the Moonies. Funny eh? These coincidences just keep on coming don't they?

When Bush became director of the CIA, he gave the job of advisor on national security to an old mate, Donald P. Gregg. Gregg dragged along the Bay of Pigs dude, Felix Rodriguez as well. These two were connected to Theodore Shackley during his time as a drug runner and assassinations marketer extrordinaire in South East Asia. Charming bunch I must say. These two were now working out of George Bush's back room! Doesn't that stimulate just the slightest bit of worry amongst y'all? Too know what these guys had been up to, and ended up getting involved in the running of your corporation? Oops, sorry. I meant country...honestly. :)
Now it was strictly taboo under US law for the government or any of its agents to sell arms to the Iranians. Or to fund and arm the Nicaraguan "freedom fighters" (in other words terrorists, just like the IRA, hard as that may be for some Americans to hear) called the Contras, during their war with the Sandanista administration. It was DEFINATLEY illegal to do such and then accept payment of narcotics in return for them! That wouldn't prevent the Regan-Bush administration from doing it all though. One of the ways the administration secretly undermined the Sandanistan government was to plant mines in Nicaraguan harbours. This was done through a company by the name of Continental Shelf Associates Incorporated, which is based on Jupiter Island near Florida.
Jupiter Island is a curious and interesting place. It became a private (notice I don't say THE) kingdom of the Harriman set a few years back before this all started. (George Bush senior has a home there.) It has long been a base of sorts, for many "Illuminati" families. CSA has a long list of clients and these include many government agencies and oil companies. Among them are Exxon (Rockefeller owned) and Pennzoil. (Connected to the Bushes.) CSA was also used as a cartographer prior to the US invasion of Grenada in October 1983 and also during US operation in Lebanon. This company was run by Robert Stevens, a close co-worker of Theodore Shackley and Felix Rodriguez when they were all involved in the drugs trade in South East Asia and the Bay of Pigs debacle. Another company under the CSA umbrella and indeed, hosted at the same address is 'Acta Non Verba', which is Latin for 'action, not words'.
In a very interesting book called 'George Bush: The Unauthorised Biography' (written by Anton Chaitkin and Webster Griffin Tarpley if anyone is interested in having a butcher's hook at it) a very high level CIA officer is quoted as saying of the CSA subsidiary... "Assassination operations and training company controlled by Ted Shackley, under cover of a private corporation with a regular board of directors, stockholders etc, located in Florida. They covertly bring in Haitian and South East Asian boat people as recruits, as well as Koreans, Cubans and Americans. They hire out assassination and intelligence services to governments, corporations and individuals..."
Again George Senior's close buddy Theodore Shackley is up to his neck in it. The mining of the Nicaraguan harbours caused such an international rumpus that laws preventing such action (they were called the Bolan Laws) were strengthened. However, at a secret conclave of the National Planning Group on the 25th of June 1984, Bush, Regan and their top bods decided to "bypass" these laws. They eventually decided on funding the Contras via Honduras banks, exactly as they had done with El Salvador against the Sandanista. George Bush traveled to El Salvador with a certain Oliver North.
On the 18th of January 1985 Felix Rodriguez met Ramon Milan Rodriguez (not related I don't think) who was an accountant and money launderer working for the Colombian drug cartel in Medellin. This incident was both confirmed by Felix and reported in the Miami Herald in the June 30th 1987 edition. From his cell in the North Carolinian jail in Butner, Ramon told investigative journalist, Martha Honey: "[Felix offered]...in exchange for money for the Contra cause he would use his influence in high places to get the cocaine cartel some US goodwill... Frankly, one of the selling points was that he could talk directly to Bush. The issue of goodwill wasn't something that was going to go through 27 bureaucratic hands. It was something that was directly between him and Bush."
When you take into account that Rodriguez was working out of Bush's office, what he was proposing would have been a piece of piss. (English slang for being very easy.)
A memo dated in early September 1986 sent to Oliver North by a retired army Major General called John K. Singlaub said that Rodriguez was talking of having "daily contact" with George Bush's office and that this could damage President Regan and the Republican Party. North even wrote in his notebook..."Felix has been talking too much about the VP."
In a 1987 book called 'Out Of Control' a former CBS NEWS broadcaster by the name of Leslie Cockburn presents utterly damning evidence of George senior's hidden hands operating in the Iran-Contra affair and drug running. She says that planes chartered by the Central Intelligence Agency and jammed to the rafters with cocaine flew straight into the Homestead Air Force Base in Florida, using a CIA coded signal. Colonel Albert Carone (who was later murdered) said in a sworn affidavit that he had seen Oliver North making more than 20 diary entries showing how profits from narcotics sales were being utilised to buy arms for the Contra guerillas. One entry for July 5th 1985 reputedly said... '$14 million to buy arms came from drugs.'
If you find this stuff disturbing, then you aren't unjustified. What this means is that the very people you vote for are deeply implicated in the trafficking of human misery so they can fund their "divide and rule" wars in the corners of the globe. Do you really think that people like George Bush should be allowed to be important public servants when they knowingly cause this much misery and pain? And the ultimate question is (given that this will eventually get around to talking about 9/11) do you trust these people to tell you the truth about al-Qaeda and the twin towers disaster? Do you really think that people like this are the ones you should be listening to when you're deciding whether to send American troops overseas to blow the shit out of targets that you've been manipulated into believing were vital to the US's security? And don't take my word, or any one particular author that I've read's word for it. If you really think it's worth investigating, then do some trawling through the books mentioned above and confirm it for yourselves. I could go on indefinitely about this particular string, but that would be extremely time consuming. Already this post has totaled some 7,000 words. If I included every name and every instance that was known on this subject, it could stretch easily to 70,000. As it is, people like George Bush and his family have enough to answer for and you can read about the rest I'm too lazy to write about in the books.

But there is one very important point to make in closing of this post. If you believe in what you've just read, then you are quite possibly fuming and ready to take the battle to the people you've trusted, who betrayed you. Violence is pointless and counter-productive! As is undermining the democratic system, which at its root, is as good a system of government as we'll ever have on Earth. Towards the end of this posting spree of mine, I'll go into some depth about what I believe we can do to get some honesty and integrity into out governments and our lives. You should remember right now that these pyramidal structures of corruption are only there, because we're holding them up. The strength of any pyramid is in its lower layer. If all of us (the lower layer) suddenly upped sticks and walked away from it, the whole pile of shit would collapse like a house of cards in a force 10 gale. Any day that the collective change of humanity's minds occurs, will be the end for the "Illuminati", because people will finally have finished with giving their minds and control of their lives away and will take it back. That doesn't require violence or revolution. That's just for people who want to replace the old corruption with new corruption. Fighting fire with fire doesn't work.


That's this post finished now. There will be more to come, including some very fine detail about the contradictions and blatant lies we've been fed about 9/11 and Project TWAT. I'll include links to and from all threads in the series IN all threads in the series.
 
Jim, while I still think that some of your conclusions are a bit far-fetched, I felt reminded of several novels by Robert Ludlum (Trevayne, The Matlock Paper, The Matarese Circle, The Parsifal Mosaic et al). He bases quite a lot of his work on some secret society behind the US government. You should try one of them, you might like it, even if it's written as pure fiction. :)
 
Haltickling said:
Jim, while I still think that some of your conclusions are a bit far-fetched, I felt reminded of several novels by Robert Ludlum (Trevayne, The Matlock Paper, The Matarese Circle, The Parsifal Mosaic et al). He bases quite a lot of his work on some secret society behind the US government. You should try one of them, you might like it, even if it's written as pure fiction. :)

Oh yeah? I know who he is, but never read any before. I kind of blank out even at Tom Clancy novels, so God knows what Ludlum would do to me. :blaugh:
 
Actually Hal, I gotta question. Can youi be specific about what parts you find far-fetched; because I'll try and supply more supporting evidence on anything you can specifically name.
 
Well, once again you're relating everything to everything else. That's what I had meant in my comment to your first post: Your theory can't explain really everything.

A few minor points: You tie all religions which deal with the sun (or its name in the case of Sun Myung Moon) to your conspiracy. That's what I'd call far-fetched. All the very early cultures, long before Mesopotamia, revered the sun as life-giver, which it really is, even in the scientific sense. In fact, the sun probably was the first God of mankind, as the most powerful factor of nature the early humans became aware of.

Apart from that, "Sun" is a very wide-spread and common Korean surname (like "Kim"), and has nothing at all to do with the meaning of the English word "sun".

You seem to be so enthralled by your theory that you smell a conspiracy behind every corner. Even rather harmless names rouse your suspicion. I'm sure you know who Emilio Zapata was, and that he's still a national hero for the Mexicans and many people from Central America. So neither the Operation Zapata nor the name of an oil company is necessarily related to any conspiracy. BTW: Zapata is just another common name in Mexico.

I don't know enough about the secret societies and family relations you mentioned, so I can't really comment on that. Only one thing: If you go back far enough, we are all related to each other. Godefroi de Bouillon must have several hundred thousand more or less distanced relatives by now.

I think your theory would gain a lot more credibility if you restricted it to one topic circle, like the English-American connection. Instead of trying to explain everything back to the Neanderthals, I mean.
 
Haltickling said:
Well, once again you're relating everything to everything else. That's what I had meant in my comment to your first post: Your theory can't explain really everything.

A few minor points: You tie all religions which deal with the sun (or its name in the case of Sun Myung Moon) to your conspiracy. That's what I'd call far-fetched. All the very early cultures, long before Mesopotamia, revered the sun as life-giver, which it really is, even in the scientific sense. In fact, the sun probably was the first God of mankind, as the most powerful factor of nature the early humans became aware of.

Apart from that, "Sun" is a very wide-spread and common Korean surname (like "Kim"), and has nothing at all to do with the meaning of the English word "sun".
Yeah that's true, Sun is a common name; as someone who does Tae Kwon Do I should probably have mentioned that. I guess I found it funny more than anythnig else, so I included it. Sorry if it seems like I am clutching at straws. To be perfectly honest though, no-one has to clutch at them. If you search there are a lot of "straws" that throw themselves at you.
 
Haltickling said:
I don't know enough about the secret societies and family relations you mentioned, so I can't really comment on that. Only one thing: If you go back far enough, we are all related to each other. Godefroi de Bouillon must have several hundred thousand more or less distanced relatives by now.
Yeah but if you go back to "Adam and Eve", the genetic characteristics are a hell of a lot more watered down. If you tested YOUR DNA or if I did mine, I seriously doubt it would show a geneic connection to the Bush family. A certain amount of genetic continuity has to be maintained for that to happen. Granted we're talking quite distant relatives someimes, but it doesn't always follow that that means the connection is weaker. I think it indicated a very wide source of propogation at source. That I think is why a person who's a 13th cousin once removed of the Queen of England, sitting in the Whitehouse in the same lifetime.

Haltickling said:
I think your theory would gain a lot more credibility if you restricted it to one topic circle, like the English-American connection. Instead of trying to explain everything back to the Neanderthals, I mean.

Possibly it would, although it would definatley be no less controversial. The problem with that is that I'm then editing the information I've got, to only write what I think will make me look better. That effecivley turns me into the very thing I'm complaining about. Who the hell am I to decide I'll filter the information so it makes me look more credible? That means I'm becoming a censor. I'm not forming a political party or a religious cult, so if people read this stuff, it's up to them to decide what they do with it. Granted there are certain things that I havn't mentioned on purpose, but that's because I've yet to prove all the things I've come across to myself. I think there's a difference between selective editing and not mentioning something because I'm not certain about it myself.

There will be more to conme on all this. At the very least, even if it's impossible to make everyone believe in a Machivellian conspiracy, that the United States Government has lied through it's bare-faced teeth to us all. There are a mass of lies and inconsistencies in it's statements about 9/11 and when I eventually have finished all 6 or 7 "thesis" in the series, there will be a lot of questions that people want answers to.
 
Haltickling said:
Instead of trying to explain everything back to the Neanderthals, I mean.

Posting this as an afterthought.


Most people think Neanderthal life was around 30,000 years ago. My theory says that not only is it untrue that Neanderthal Man was the foremost human life at the time, but that civillisation on a standard that makes Sumer and Babylon (and possibly even our own today) existed for about seventy to eighty thousand years before the cataclysm chains of 10,500 to 12,000 years ago.
Certainly they were more spiritually advanced than us, but given the sites around the world that show signs of artificial radioactivity dating from 100,000 years ago, they possibly even exceeded us.
 
The Religion of Conspiracy.

Or

Myriads’ reply to the core topic of this series of posts.

Answering the specific claims of a Conspiracy theory is non-productive. For, like a glob of quicksilver, it will close about any argument and drown it in the special way that selective facts and supposition only can. It’s far better to chop at the root of the issue. The faith itself.

As science, and the principles behind it’s method, have taken root in western culture over the last thousand years, it has had a profound effect on the form that faith and belief has been expressed and held in our culture. The main one being, a serious splintering of the major faiths hold on the peoples of the Western world. Simply put, people don’t believe as deeply or as blindly as they once did, they question and doubt. People do not see God as the all purpose answer He once was. People who still have the same worries and fears about life, and the unanswerable questions that surround it, as their ancestors did, find themselves adrift in a universe that is looking more and more chaotic by the year, and in it’s basic unorderedness they are troubled. It’s very disturbing to them.

Humans like order. They like reasons. They like to know ‘Why’.

God used to be the all purpose ‘Because’. But in the 21st century, God simply is not cutting the mustard of ‘why’ as effectively as it once did. Science has undercut him in it’s slow quiet rational way.

People still believe, but their ability to use that belief as a shield against the chaos they see in day-to-day life has been fractured, if not destroyed.

So new faiths are stepping into fill the void. Faiths with roots in the basic aspects of the psychology of human behavior.

And one of the first among them is the Conspiracy.

It’s psychological basis? People seek control. So there must be some group that HAS control.

It’s a comfort to know that all the whys for what plagues the planet have a handy answer. It was supposed to come out that way. There is a directing hand. A group with a plan. A group with power so massive they can do as they Will, when they will, where ever they will.
Deny it? Then you are a dupe, manipulated by their control of information, or you are one of them furthering their goals of secrecy. Like arguing against Gods existence, one can’t prove the negative of No illuminati, only the positive points of no sign of them. And like Gods nonexistence, those points are easily brushed aside by the believer with the final answer of ‘you can’t see the truth from where you are.’ Dupe or tool. Pick your box, or join the believer.

Like any faith, Conspiracy offers a handy set of tools for the user to organize the world with. And it does a very good job of it. People WANT order. Even one that they find horrific. That even has the added bonus of being a positive stroke to the ‘believer’ who sees through the machinations of the Illuminati. They are now better then the blind sheep all around them, who baaa through their days unseeing. A good faith always makes it’s user feel special. Here is Conspiracies gift. You, the believer, who have ‘seen’ are inherently more clever and observant then your fellows. You’ve done something that few can! Seen the truth! Feels good no? Now you even have a righteous cause to fight for also. You can fight ‘Them’.

I can continue, but my point is simple. Conspiracy is just another faith substitute. An ordering tool to see the universe with like any other faith. However, I see it as a particularly dangerous one, for it gains its strength from fear and division. It makes the case of “them’ and you, good and bad, right and wrong. It’s not a belief structure that challenges people to be better and to grow, but acts as a tool to beat down those who have achieved already with the handy tonic of class division based this time in advantage gained from membership in secret orders and societies. It’s a belief structure that says your life and world are not as you want it to be because someone has stopped you from outside.

it owes a lot to the early Socialist ideas of the mid 19th century and early 20th when that political direction was as much a faith as an expression of the workers power. A faith of justified frustration that became a political movement and produced real change. Only this time, the problems that are causing the average man’s bad life, the lack of control, are not as obvious as the Industrialist or Banker who in their greed, truly shafted the workers of their days. Today, Globalization, Economies of scale, Advance of unifying technologies, Merged markets, fluid culture, Media presence, and true world wide forces leave such a diffuse target that it can’t be readily fought or even understood by an individual. So... give it a face. The Illuminati. THEY did it! Now you can direct that anger. That frustration.

If you gaze upon chaos unblinkingly for long periods, you will create order to comfort yourself. And a world wide organization that controls it all, is much more fun and comfortable then perhaps the simple chaotic fact that sometimes ‘shit happens’ and no one at all is in charge.

Now, some might say I’m an agent of disinformation, working to cover the exposure of the Masters above. But no, I had a reason for writing this up. Why? Because I was bored and had a spare quarter hour. No sinister motive. Just some fun to distract during a quiet afternoon at work.

Myriads
 
I had a nice, drawn out reply to your thread, BJ, and then my comp froze just as I was finishing (ain't life grand?), so I've tried to re-assemble the gist of it with what my pea-brain could remember. So, as you read on, please try to envision that the original was something to behold, and that this secondary effort, well, is just the meat and potatoes of an original 5 course meal...*sniff*.:sowrong:
_________

Big, Big, Smelly Jim...I read yer above "article" with a sense of trepidation and awe.

Since I am feeling retarded these days (it's true) I have some questions for you:

1) Does the movie "The Skulls" have anything to do with what you are talking aboot? It makes sense that the "Illuminati" would start recruitment at the college level...

2) Are you saying that 9/11 was a hoax? That the Illuminati, or whoever, staged this sacrifice so that Bush would be able to invade any country he wished in the search for natural resources (like oil), snuff out any Muslim groups that got too big for their britches, and basically rule the world, once again, under the guise of anti-terrorism?

Some of my Muslim friends have postulated such a theory, but I refused to believe such blasphemy. I mean, could a Western government that was elected to protect it's own population willfully murder 3000+ of it's members? How come? I'm not being facetious here, I am genuinely asking...

It is easy to believe in theories if one remains unchallenged, so I will remain cautious here, but I was led to believe during my scholastic days that the "Checks and Balances" system of American government was so tight; so well-structured, that any breach of trust by its Executive branch would result in almost instantaneous investigation that would eventually lead to its downfall.

Yet, Bush presses onward. Is this b/c the Republicans hold the majority? Had Gore been in office and/or the Democrats held majority, would 9/11 have ever taken place? And what aboot the botched Presidential election? Is it possible that it was staged as well - with the people holding true power wanting to get America "back on track"?

3) Finally, if the Illuminati and its lineage are against the Jewish people as well, how do you account for the Jews proliferation in American culture, economics, politics and media? It has been stated many times that the only reason Israel still stands is b/c of the US. I believe this to be so, but this backing must have come from a very powerful lobby group: The Jewish Empire, or whatever you want to call it.

I would continue, but my medication is kicking in and I have to go lie down. Thanks fer yer attention, BigJim - the above dissertation by Myriads notwithstanding.

Cheers.:D

P.M.S. It just occurred to me (duh!!) that 9/11 happened a mere 8 months or so after Bush took office. And why was the Supreme Court so quick to dismiss Gore's legitimate argument(s)?
Hmmm...
 
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Myr I'm very glad you decided to post on this topic, because you're the one person who this discussion would've been incomplete without. As I'm sure you'll remember, we had a chat about this subject some 6 months ago in the chatroom. I was impressed with your candor then, although your conclusions I found quite chilling and in some cases, horrifying.

Myriads said:
The Religion of Conspiracy.

Or

Myriads’ reply to the core topic of this series of posts.

Answering the specific claims of a Conspiracy theory is non-productive. For, like a glob of quicksilver, it will close about any argument and drown it in the special way that selective facts and supposition only can. It’s far better to chop at the root of the issue. The faith itself.
I see what you mean, but what you're essentially saying is that you can't refute individual pieces of evidence, so you'll make a broad, sweeping, largely unsupported statement as if it's fact. Well although you're more coherant and well thought out than most, what you've written is just YOUR opinion from one perspective of perception. Sort of a "discussional atom bomb": the challenge of refuting the evidence is too fiddly or time consuming so you make what sounds to me like a very condescending statement about a "glob of quicksilver" and attempt to remove the whole thing in one go. I also note that you say "it's far better". Not "it's far more effective" or something of the same meaning, but "far better". I don't want to turn into Sigmund Freud here, but that choice of words speaks volumes to me. It seems that even though you're someone who it's impossible to outwardly provoke (indeed I've never known anyone with such a regular pulse-rate) you're basing your opinions on what feels better from your perception of reality; not what seems more likely or logical given the "facts". Of course, I may be disappearing up my own psycho-babbling arsehole here, but it seems that way to me. So if you think I'm using "selective facts and supposition", don't try to scorn the "root of the faith". Actually tell me where I'm wrong.
Of course the problem from perspective in this debate, is that if we went into a tie-break to be decided by Occam's Razor, you'd get the majority of people's opinions. Of course as I've said before, that doesn't bother me any more. I don't feel the necessity to "convert" anyone. I put out what I see from my perspective and people can take it how they want to. If people reply to me (as you've done) then I'll comment on the points they make, or in your case, the holes they try to pick in my logic and thinking.

Myriads said:
As science, and the principles behind it’s method, have taken root in western culture over the last thousand years, it has had a profound effect on the form that faith and belief has been expressed and held in our culture. The main one being, a serious splintering of the major faiths hold on the peoples of the Western world. Simply put, people don’t believe as deeply or as blindly as they once did, they question and doubt. People do not see God as the all purpose answer He once was.
Humans like order. They like reasons. They like to know ‘Why’.

God used to be the all purpose ‘Because’. But in the 21st century, God simply is not cutting the mustard of ‘why’ as effectively as it once did. Science has undercut him in it’s slow quiet rational way.
I'd agree with that partly. But it's also worth noting that "science" didn't become so prominent until religion was being questioned too much to be as effective a tool of control as it once was. These days it's considered to be respectable to stick to the principles of "science" and believe that if science can't explain it, it doesn't exist. The problem is that science is no more closer to answering humankind's question than religion is or was. Science was just another pile of poo, loosely based on a reality that would have been better explained and perceived by combining the two.
A few years back I saw this guy called Ronald Crauf who was some sort of aeronautical and astro engineer. He was talking about the possibilities of inter-stellar travel and was generally pooh-pooh'ing the whole idea. His insistence was that the speed of light was the ultimate speed in the universe and that that was backed up by very good "evidence". Now this wasn't some turn of the century theorist. It was a guy with 3 degrees and about 35 years of practical, hands-on experience. Speed of light is unbreakable? This was in the mid-late 80's and even now we know that he was talking through his hat. Sure we don't have X-Wings and Capital ships equipped with hyperdrives, but we are quite capable of sending sub-atomic particles faster than the speed of light. Given that in the 30's nuclear technology was only good for poisoning anyone within 100 miles when the atom was split, and what nuclear energy can do now, it's not a huge leap of logic to believe that another 50 years will destroy Crauf's theory in it's wholeness. The whole reason behind this waffle? That "science" is just as capable of being wrong as religion is. No single belief system or dogma is capable of encompassing everything. Which is why I leave that space on forms that asks my religion, blank. It's not that I'm nothing, I'm just not anything. When you limit your beliefs behind a word with ism or ianity on the end, you're limiting what you can conceive. So the upshot is, that science didn't undercut God, it tried to replace him when people stopped buying him (or to be more accurate, the vision of "Him" that was being peddled at the time), and eventually failed because it isn't broad-minded enough.


Myriads said:
So new faiths are stepping into fill the void. Faiths with roots in the basic aspects of the psychology of human behavior.

And one of the first among them is the Conspiracy.

It’s psychological basis? People seek control. So there must be some group that HAS control.

It’s a comfort to know that all the whys for what plagues the planet have a handy answer. It was supposed to come out that way. There is a directing hand. A group with a plan. A group with power so massive they can do as they Will, when they will, where ever they will.
Hmmmm, you're assuming quite a few things here Myr. While they may be true with some, even a lot of people; they're not true with anywhere near all of them. Because you're limiting your vision to believing that all of humanity is narrow-minded to one degree or another, you're falling victim to the same thing yourself. Simply put, you believe that when people believe something, there has to be a reason behind it that's a foundation of weakness or limitation.
Myriads said:
Deny it? Then you are a dupe, manipulated by their control of information, or you are one of them furthering their goals of secrecy. Like arguing against Gods existence, one can’t prove the negative of No illuminati, only the positive points of no sign of them. And like Gods nonexistence, those points are easily brushed aside by the believer with the final answer of ‘you can’t see the truth from where you are.’ Dupe or tool. Pick your box, or join the believer.
Are you thinking that I'm denying the existence of God, or are you just using that as an example? For the record, I have a conception of God, but it's unique in that it has no limitation.
The "perception" of God in religion was created by people who lived centuries ago and worked to the tune of their own, evolving, cultural agendas. I think that although you can't prove that "God" doesn't exist, it's quite easy to prove (or at least heavily suggest) that their presentation was fiddled and distorted.
Unlike the "Illuminati" however, who in one guise or another have worked from those times till now, while religion is still practiced the only main evolvements have been people's personal ones. (Rather than any churches.) The "Illuminati" are a tangible presence because of their various organisations, traceable manipulations and physical symbolism. (A lot of which is tied into religion of course.) I use the term as a collective for the people who manipulate world matters in all arenas and industires.
As for brushing aside anything, well that's up to individuals to judge for themselves. I'm not recruiting for anything. People will form their own opinions based on what they read here and (hopefully) their own checks into the background of these matters.

Myriads said:
Like any faith, Conspiracy offers a handy set of tools for the user to organize the world with. And it does a very good job of it. People WANT order. Even one that they find horrific. That even has the added bonus of being a positive stroke to the ‘believer’ who sees through the machinations of the Illuminati. They are now better then the blind sheep all around them, who baaa through their days unseeing. A good faith always makes it’s user feel special. Here is Conspiracies gift. You, the believer, who have ‘seen’ are inherently more clever and observant then your fellows. You’ve done something that few can! Seen the truth! Feels good no? Now you even have a righteous cause to fight for also. You can fight ‘Them’.

I think everyone benefits from order in society, but I feel that "Conspiracy" offer precious little of it. All this research has done to me is make my life very unsettled and my feelings too. All being "inherently more clever and observant then my fellows" has done is laid me open to ridicule and being thought of, as a wacko. However I'm luckier than most, because I'm learning to let go of any worry about what people think of me. When someone starts opening up to unconventional ideas (such as the "Illuminati" for example) the first thing that happens, is that all bloody hell breaks loose in their life. One either learns the lesson of tolerance, or dies of a heart attack. It doesn't feel like a righteous cause, like a gang of missionaries tempting fate by entering the canibal's village. It feels like you're stepping out of an air-lock into a vacuum, with no life support. Hardly the sort of set-up one goes into to try and find a new faith to lean on Myr. And certainly not feeling "good" about it either. If I ever feel good about it at all, it'll be some years down the line. I think it's far more likely that science is hopelessly defending it's dogma from the next generation of free thinkers. Even though it can be more flexible than conventional religion, science won't explain it all. I personally think you fall into this category. If science's castle fell tomorrow, you'd be suddenly bereft. All the things you live your life through would have vanished and all you'd be left with is a hollow feeling. If I was proved wrong tomorrow, then I'd roll with it and life would continue. Does that sound to anyone, like I'm trying to defend a faith or a shielding belief system?


Myriads said:
I can continue, but my point is simple. Conspiracy is just another faith substitute. An ordering tool to see the universe with like any other faith. However, I see it as a particularly dangerous one, for it gains its strength from fear and division. It makes the case of “them’ and you, good and bad, right and wrong. It’s not a belief structure that challenges people to be better and to grow, but acts as a tool to beat down those who have achieved already with the handy tonic of class division based this time in advantage gained from membership in secret orders and societies. It’s a belief structure that says your life and world are not as you want it to be because someone has stopped you from outside.
Myr, that paragraph shows how little you truly understand about what I'm talking about. If you truly believe that what I've been talking about is purely negative, then you've either got what you said to me you havn't (a dogma to defend), or you just havn't been paying much attention. The whole point about what I'm saying is exactly how to grow and be better and how to advance. It's nothing to do with thinking that the whole world is against you and there's point in trying to live a productive life.
Of all the things you've said so far, this one has been the furthest off the mark. Certainly what I believe challenges the idea of material gain and a lot of things people thought were wonderful and true, ( CNN bulletins for example :sowrong: ) but it's bugger all to do with 100% give up and roll over. I think the most dangerous thing in this debate so far, is that you think you know everything there is about the psychology of what you've dubbed "The Religion of Conspiracy". Without wanting to appear condescending Myr, you've got a lot to learn about it. No wonder you think it's hollow, miserable and dangerous if all you think it's about is destruction of what people are proud of. When you read the last "thesis" style post of what I want to write, you won't be able to seriously suggest that what I'm talking about is dangerous and negative. The main and undying principle of what I believe in, is that destruction of anything is mindless and wrong. Even if something is negative, it can be turned to good without any fighting or rallying round a flag. Perhaps the "Illuminati" have been mankind's greatest servants, by showing us what can happen when we allow pourselves to think negativly and give in to violence, hatred and fear. That's what I'm talking about and no-one can seriously suggest that that sort of philosophy is "dangerous", even if the Illuminati DON'T exist.
I also refute that "It’s a belief structure that says your life and world are not as you want it to be because someone has stopped you from outside". It's not that at all. My point has always been that the strength of a pyramid is at the bottom, not the top. That means if something bad is happening to us as a people, then it's because we've gotten too used to letting it happen. Again you've shown a fundemental lack of understand about the most important things I'm talking about.
One possible future I think is truly negative and free of all possible positivity, is the one I think you await with enrapture. A whole populace linked to a central computer by a personal microchip. As I'm certain you're aware, the technology is already available to implement this, with microchips so small, that they can be implanted through a syringe. Having chips inside me that not only send information from me to the computer, but allow the computer to send information back, is really quite a horrifying vision. As was your reply to my exclamation that I thought you were souless; which was if you'll recall... "I've been souless for years." To be honest Myr, given that statement, it's not suprising and entirely understandable that you can see only negativity in what I'm talking about.

Myriads said:
it owes a lot to the early Socialist ideas of the mid 19th century and early 20th when that political direction was as much a faith as an expression of the workers power. A faith of justified frustration that became a political movement and produced real change. Only this time, the problems that are causing the average man’s bad life, the lack of control, are not as obvious as the Industrialist or Banker who in their greed, truly shafted the workers of their days. Today, Globalization, Economies of scale, Advance of unifying technologies, Merged markets, fluid culture, Media presence, and true world wide forces leave such a diffuse target that it can’t be readily fought or even understood by an individual. So... give it a face. The Illuminati. THEY did it! Now you can direct that anger. That frustration.
The only "faith" I've talked about is what an incredible and unique creation each human being is. Every human being is capable of having the physical reality around them, that they truly desire. Even if the Illuminati didn't exist, people with a lack of imagination and willigness to create the existence they want, would be as unhappy and downtrodden as any peasant was under Czar Nicholas II. And there is the whole crux of the solution to the problems I'm talking about. It's a fundemental law, that our surroundings are reflections of our inner selves. If people complain that they can't find love, but all they project is anger and frustration, that's all life will reflect back at them. If they actually took the trouble to be more loving, then it would come back to them as surely as anything negative would.


Myriads said:
If you gaze upon chaos unblinkingly for long periods, you will create order to comfort yourself. And a world wide organization that controls it all, is much more fun and comfortable then perhaps the simple chaotic fact that sometimes ‘shit happens’ and no one at all is in charge.

Again Myr, you're assuming that all my arguments and reasons come from my psychological makeup, rather than any reasoned research and actual evidence. I don't believe you'd say that to be insulting. I think it does however, show that you're far to willing to ascribe occurences to reasons with less basis for existnace than anything I've said or presented. Your whole argument centres on your opinion of the collective psychology of "conspiracy theorists". Nothing more. I've not just presented opinions, I've presented supporting evidence, witness testimony and facts that people can check up through something as mundane as the internet or a trip to the Library of Congress. (Or even a normal library!) To say that the collective facts are irrelavent because all us worshipers of Conspiracy are desperatley searching for something to grab hold of in the ocean of chaos, is one of the most illogical things I've ever heard.

Myriads said:
Now, some might say I’m an agent of disinformation, working to cover the exposure of the Masters above. But no, I had a reason for writing this up. Why? Because I was bored and had a spare quarter hour. No sinister motive. Just some fun to distract during a quiet afternoon at work.

Myriads


QUARTER OF AN HOUR?!?!?!?!?!?! You typed that up in 15 fucking minutes!?!?!?! Jesus Myr, what the hell is your typing speed??? :eek:

On a serious note, I'm very glad you joined the discussion because you presented a great many misconceptions about what I'm trying to get over. Without you doing that I'm sure I would'nt have been able to disabuse them so completely. I really don't give a whale's arse how many, if any, people believe me. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and despite what you might think, this is not some massive project to try to get a load of people on my side. It's just someone trying to get out some information that he believes people have the right to be aware of, because knowledge of it's existence has been suppressed for so long. The ending of that can only be positive.

Despite the negative things in the world, it's a great time to be alive and a great time to make our best dreams come true. It's in the grasp of all of us.
 
What am I, chopped Canadian liver?!? :blaugh:

Ya, I know mate, you'll be replying to mine next.

Cheers.:D
 
Jim, I think your reply to Myriads actually confirms his theory. This HAS become a religion-like obsession for you, I'm afraid. We have a saying here in Germany: "He doesn't see the forest because of all the trees standing in his way." I find his holistic (though admittedly rather psycho-analytic) view a lot more viable than yours.
 
Haltickling said:
We have a saying here in Germany: "He doesn't see the forest because of all the trees standing in his way." I find his holistic (though admittedly rather psycho-analytic) view a lot more viable than yours.

The phrase is Asian, Hal.

And the correct term is Pyschodynamic when used as a qualifier.

Cheers.:p :p
 
Moses25 said:
The phrase is Asian, Hal.
I guess this is true for every part of the world that has forests, Moses. So it's small wonder that such (or similar) truths can have quite different origins.

I'm not that familiar with the terminology of psychology, so thanks for the information. :)
 
Oh bro, I'm just rubbing yer rhubarb. ;)

Your welcome, tho (I think :wow: )

Cheers.:D
 
Moses25 said:

2) Are you saying that 9/11 was a hoax? That the Illuminati, or whoever, staged this sacrifice so that Bush would be able to invade any country he wished in the search for natural resources (like oil), snuff out any Muslim groups that got too big for their britches, and basically rule the world, once again, under the guise of anti-terrorism?


etc. etc. ...


Well said, Mose25, all of it. I just quoted a small piece above.
 
Moses25 said:
I had a nice, drawn out reply to your thread, BJ, and then my comp froze just as I was finishing (ain't life grand?), so I've tried to re-assemble the gist of it with what my pea-brain could remember. So, as you read on, please try to remember that the original was something to behold, and that this secondary effort, well, is just the meat and potatoes of an original 5 course meal...*sniff*.:sowrong:
lol Never mind Moses, this looks a decent enough post to me.

Moses25 said:
Big, Big, Smelly Jim...I read yer above "article" with a sense of trepidation and awe.

Since I am feeling retarded these days (it's true) I have some questions for you:

Smelly?????? :eek: Damn dude, who's been talking to you?

Moses25 said:
1) Does the movie "The Skulls" have anything to do with what you are talking aboot? It makes sense that the "Illuminati" would start recruitment at the college level...
I don't know, because I've never heard of it. A lot of things in some films are good to make comparisons with though. My main theory about war and conflict is because it's easy in the aftermath to create further centralisation of power. The LON after WW1, the UN after WW2, the huge NATO convergance in the wake of the Bosnian War, etc...
My theory is that wars are deliberatley engineered and that the same forces control both sides in these conflicts. For instence it's very easy to prove that the Allies and Adolf hitler were funded by the same people, as you've read in the initial post in this thread. However until recently, I didn't have a Hollywood example I could compare to for easy reference. However... You know the clone wars in Star Wars Episode 2? On one side you have the seperatists lead by Count Dooku and on the other you have the Republic, lead by Chancellor Palpatine. Dooku is the student/apprentice of Darth Sidious. Chancellor Palpatine IS Darth Sidious. Therefore Palpatine is controlling both sides of the conflict. The result? The Empire, a system known for it's centralised dictatorship. That might be a very extreme example of what I mean and probably one that will make most people roll their eyes; but it illustrates my point.

Moses25 said:
2) Are you saying that 9/11 was a hoax? That the Illuminati, or whoever, staged this sacrifice so that Bush would be able to invade any country he wished in the search for natural resources (like oil), snuff out any Muslim groups that got too big for their britches, and basically rule the world, once again, under the guise of anti-terrorism?
9/11 was certainly not what we've been told it is. I will be going into great detail to show the holes and gaping friggin rents in the official explanation, fronted by the US government. On the whole basis of this deeply flawed dissertation was the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq based. I have no sympathy for either the Taliban or Hussein, but we've been lied to on a huge scale and it will be very easy to prove.

Moses25 said:
Some of my Muslim friends have postulated such a theory, but I refused to believe such blasphemy. I mean, could a Western government that was elected to protect it's own population willfully murder 3000+ of it's members? How come? I'm not being facetious here, I am genuinely asking...
No worries mate, I'm taking your whole post seriously. Don't fall into the trap of seein the "Illuminati" as being the conrolling powers of the west. The Illuminati control the Muslim nations just as tightly as they do the Christian ones. The main thing is that the people of the US, UK, Afghanistan, Iraq and so on would find they could be amazing friends if they really knew each other. But with artificially provoked wars keeping these people hating each other pointlessly, it's not going to happen, is it?
As for being elected to protect it's own population, well it was never any such thing. The people are told they have a choice between Republican and Democrat every 4 years, and because of that they live in a land of freedom. It's a joke, and a very sick one! Neither candidate is elected by balloot, they're selected by blood. I know it's held that any baby born today can be a future President, but it isn't true. Re-read the threads in this series to see the explosion of that myth Moses. It's complete crap. People can't be sucessful in politics if they can't attract sponsors from business. And business is controlled by the same people who control politics. It's a rigged game and the people never win. But what about Ross Perot? Ross is an independant. Bullshit! Ross was a comparativley unkown Texan till he got a contract by New York state. The person who gave him that contract and set him on the road towards billionairdom and political campaigning? Nelson Rockefeller, a member of the Trilateral Commission, The Bilderberg Group, The Council on foreign Relation and a many time official of New York State and the superior with the Bilderberg Group of Bill Clinton and George Bush Sr. That's independant? Har-de-har-har.

Moses25 said:
It is easy to believe in theories if one remains unchallenged, so I will remain cautious here, but I was led to believe during my scholastic days that the "Checks and Balances" system of American government was so tight; so well-structured, that any breach of trust by its Executive branch would result in almost instantaneous investigation that would eventually lead to its downfall.
The checks and balances are toothless and are only there to look good. You only have to read these two threads and "The Big Politics/Religion thread" to see just how innefectual they are at keeping public figures from misbehaving. And if you don't believe me (which you're perfectly entitled to. After all, who the fuck am I?) then try reading that list of books I posted for JoBelle. Failing that, search out other ones to verify what I'm saying.

Moses25 said:
Yet, Bush presses onward. Is this b/c the Republicans hold the majority? Had Gore been in office and/or the Democrats held majority, would 9/11 have ever taken place? And what aboot the botched Presidential election? Is it possible that it was staged as well - with the people holding true power wanting to get America "back on track"?
The election was a complete farce. As for bush and Gore, well they're both part of the same network and they are both controlled by the same parties. It's the same in every Presidential election. Ever wonder why the two candidates argue like buggery about what the other is doing wrong, but the same thing happens whichever of them gets in? Who actually sits in the OvalOffice makes little difference. The country (or I should say, "corporation") is run by the same people no matter who wins the election.
On a side note, Bush and Gore are cousins of each other. They're also realted to the British royal family and people like Winston Churchill, who was in turn, a cousin of FDR. Anynoe can become President? Never in a million years.

Moses25 said:
3) Finally, if the Illuminati and its lineage are against the Jewish people as well, how do you account for the Jews proliferation in American culture, economics, politics and media? It has been stated many times that the only reason Israel still stands is b/c of the US. I believe this to be so, but this backing must have come from a very powerful lobby group: The Jewish Empire, or whatever you want to call it.
They're not against the Jewish people, any more than they are against anyone. The Illuminati themselves have members in every religion, creed, country and colour. (Although a majority of it's members are white.) There is no plot by Jews, Muslims, blacks, whites or bankers.
Of course a very prominent familly in the Illuminati (the Rothchilds) say they're Jewish. To critiscise these people is to invite mass slander from people like the Anti Defamation League. Doesn't make any difference if you are saying that it isn't any particular religion or culture, you've had it. The ADL are themselves an Illuminati front (although 99% of it's grassroots members don't know it) and are frequently used to hurl the smear of "anti-semitism" at anyone who gets close to the truth. Critiscising the Rothschilds for their part in the conspiracy is one thing to do, that can earn you their ire. Doesn't make any difference that the Rothchilds were willing to invest money stolen from murdered Holocaust victims in the apartheid regime in South Africa though, does it? The RC's have manipulated poor Jewish people just as much as anyone else, but to speak out against them is to invite the ultimate life destroying moniker of "anti-semite". A situation the RC's are happy to manipulate for their own benefit.

Moses25 said:
I would continue, but my medication is kicking in and I have to go lie down. Thanks fer yer attention, BigJim - the above dissertation by Myriads notwithstanding..
Notwithstanding that I replied to most of Myr's misconceptions too.

Moses25 said:

Cheers wanker! :p
 
Haltickling said:
Jim, I think your reply to Myriads actually confirms his theory. This HAS become a religion-like obsession for you, I'm afraid. We have a saying here in Germany: "He doesn't see the forest because of all the trees standing in his way." I find his holistic (though admittedly rather psycho-analytic) view a lot more viable than yours.

Entirely your right to hold that opinion Hal. You think it's an obsession because I write long posts about it? That pretty much condemns any professional author then. I think Myriads has a far too shallow opinion of my reasons.

Being willing to write huge a post about such things, doesn't mean it's a religious crusade for me. I've always been a good typer and I've always enjoyed wriing long essays. Given that I also feel strongly about getting supressed information out, that's all there is to it. If I enjoyed eating hotdogs for hours on end, there'd be just as much logic according to that theory, for saying I'd deify Bernard Matthews. Doesn't mean it's an obsession either. An obsession is something that prevents you from having a normal life in other respects. I think Myr is more likely to fall into that category than I am.
As for not seeing the forest for the trees, well if Myr had bothered to refute some of my points by more than giving an opinion of my psychology, I might have ceded a point or two. I don't have all the answers and I don't pretend to. I do like to air the ones I think I might have though
 
Haltickling said:
Jim, I think your reply to Myriads actually confirms his theory. This HAS become a religion-like obsession for you, I'm afraid. We have a saying here in Germany: "He doesn't see the forest because of all the trees standing in his way." I find his holistic (though admittedly rather psycho-analytic) view a lot more viable than yours.


Afterthoughts.............

So what course of action would I have takent that could have proved otherwise Hal? Not replied to Myr at all? Made a much shorter reply that didn't address all his points fully, but would make people think I had a more normal attention span? What do you think I should do to appear more "normal"?


Partially obsessive I'd call myself, at most. However I'd strongly dispute the "religious" bit. If I was religious about it, I'd have a much harder time admitting any of my mistakes.
Also I don't agree that being willing to spend time on something I think is worthwhile is indicative of it being a religion-substitute. What I write about I actually find distasteful and uncomfortable. Add to that that I'm probably wrecking my career prospects if I'm right and you have rather a different side to the picture.
Would you call Alexander's over 20 a day posting average a religious like obsession?


Anyhow, the thread is provoking some good discussion now, after a bit of a lull. That's the reason I posted it in the first place.
 
Last edited:
Haltickling said:
Jim, I think your reply to Myriads actually confirms his theory. This HAS become a religion-like obsession for you, I'm afraid. We have a saying here in Germany: "He doesn't see the forest because of all the trees standing in his way." I find his holistic (though admittedly rather psycho-analytic) view a lot more viable than yours.

It's happened again. Every time I leave this subject for a few hours, I think of something else to address.

I was thinking about Myr's comments and your response and I think you actually mis-interpreted what he meant. Certainly he said he thought that "Conspiracy" was an alternative to religion, but he didn't actually say that I was obsessed. He wasn't decrying the amount of effort I put in, but the rather feeble (in his opinion) efforts I'd made to put order into the "chaos". Thoughts?
 
Jim, I wasn't trying to interpret Myriad's thoughts. I'm no mind-reader. What I added were my own impressions.

Anyway, I've said all I wanted to say concerning this topic. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's still my opinion. Your comments didn't convince me.
 
Haltickling said:
Jim, I wasn't trying to interpret Myriad's thoughts. I'm no mind-reader. What I added were my own impressions.

Cool, no worries. I was just wondering about that angle.

Haltickling said:
Anyway, I've said all I wanted to say concerning this topic. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's still my opinion. Your comments didn't convince me.
Hey, where did you get the idea I didn't like your opinion? In the Part 1 thread I said I appreciated your input, even though you were sceptical. The best part of that discussion came from your input. Just because I responded at length to Myr's own lengthy response, doesn't mean I'm pissed at you.

What I didn't like was the combination of Myr's condescension and failiure to do anything but give an uninformed opinion about my psyche. Even when people have bridled at what I've said criticaly of their particular belief system, it's been about something I had studied.
I'm happy for you to not believe me or believe me at your choice Hal; Please believe that.
 
I was thinking about Myr's comments and your response and I think you actually mis-interpreted what he meant. Certainly he said he thought that "Conspiracy" was an alternative to religion, but he didn't actually say that I was obsessed. He wasn't decrying the amount of effort I put in, but the rather feeble (in his opinion) efforts I'd made to put order into the "chaos". Thoughts?

You have nailed it.

What I didn't like was the combination of Myr's condescension and failiure to do anything but give an uninformed opinion about my psyche. Even when people have bridled at what I've said criticaly of their particular belief system, it's been about something I had studied.

I was not commentign upon your psyche in specific. I was making a general case for the rise of 'new faiths' that is becoming popular in the field.

Myriads
 
Myriads said:


You have nailed it.
I did? I wondered what that thing sticking in my ass was. :p

Well Myr it's all down to individual opinions in the end, and yours just happens to be that life is the result of a series of random accidents. Personally I find that to be the opposite of what I believe. I think a line from the movie 'Contact' springs to mind when when Matthew Modine tells Tom Skerritt... "I'm not against the evils of technology Dr. Drumlin. Only the men who seek to deify it, at the expense of human truth." Even though Palmer Joss was a Christian and I'm not, I share that sentiment. I think there's no higher deity in your "world" than the possibilities of technology. Considering what technology is capable of being used for, I find that quite frightening.



Myriads said:
I was not commentign upon your psyche in specific. I was making a general case for the rise of 'new faiths' that is becoming popular in the field.

Ah, right. In that case I apologise; even though you were refering to "Conspiracy" as a whole, I believed you were refering to me more specifically.

Well like Religion, alternative ways of thinking and living have their fair share of nutters and people with no soul, looking for a crutch to lean on. I'm not one of them though. I've been through a multitude of different beliefs myself, from a Christian (born into it and had it chucked down my neck at school till I was ready to barf on it) one similar to yourself and the one I currently hold. Oddly enough, the one I currently hold is the one that affords me the least comfort emotionally and mentally. With Christianity there was the promise of all bad things getting their arses kicked at Armagheddon and with atheism/chaos-theory there was the promise that you could influence life's "accidents" to run in your favour.
The thing with the beliefs I have now, is that anyone can create he life and existence they feel they need or want, just by taking ultimate responsibility for their own destiny. But it goes further than just taking advantage of chaos's random opportunities. If you want something, then an opportunity will come along to prove just HOW much you want it. Whether you decide to take that challenge on or break to it, decided just where you'll end up.

[For Hal] This is where my "religion", or as I prefer to call it, my spirituality comes into it. The Illuminati thing is no more an obsession han anything else in my life. It's important to me yes, but it takes up no more time in my life than making sure my pension contributions are paid up fully or that my dog gets fed and walked when he needs it. (Well that's past tense, because my dog died last month, but that's irrelavent really.) Sure I type a lot, but using keyboards/typewriters etc has always been something I've enjoyed, so writing an 8,000 word post might only take me three or four hours. (Not as fast as Myr though! 15 minutes? Jesus........) I know I have a tendency to waffle Hal, but that's more from a desire to comment on every point made, rather than not being able to live without it.
 
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