Should The Yankees Fire Joe Torre?

[Mitchell]

In the wake of the Yankees first round loss to Detroit, and some scathing criticism of manager Joe Torre by fans on the Yankee message board, I thought I would come up with a poll questioning whether Joe should be fired or not.
I think many would guess where I stand on this. Rooting for a team, the Braves, who won fourteen straight division titles, and one World Series, and went down often in the first round since 2000, only advancing past the first round once from 2000 to 2005, until their implosion this year. I dont feel that Joe should be fired. Granted, the Braves have far less weapons, and usually did, with an 80 million dollar payroll, than the Yankees do with a 200 million one, I dont think you fire a manager who has won nine straight division titles, and ten of eleven, as Torre has, and four World Series, and gets to the playoffs every year. The postseason is a crap shoot, and, more often than not, except for in 1998 with the Yankees, often the team that wins the most in the regular season, does not win the World Series, as the Braves found out many times in their fourteen years, with all their 100 win seasons. Heck, even the year that Atlanta won the World Series, Cleveland won the most games in baseball that year, and the Braves handled them well in the World Series.
I say, no, Torre should not go. The Yankees need younger pitching, to go with Chin Min Wang, and probably should let go of old high ERA Randy Johnson, and nearing 40 "Moose" Mussina. Even Rivera, good as he is, is going to be 37. I dont know exactly what the Yankees need, but, my guess, is that George raises the payroll to 250 mil next year, in persuit of a World Title, but, as for Torre, I think he should stay. You do not fire a manager who gets a team to the postseason every year. The Braves didnt, and neither should the Yankees.

Mitch

 

[venray]

The Yankees should stop throwing away money to buy big name talent that has no clue how to play like a "team"....

It just doesnt work any more.....

 

[Mufasa]

they should but they wont and id rather they didnt. i hate the Skankees and love seeing them lose

 

[Mitchell]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. My dad, who has been a Yankees fan since he was little, has criticized Torre for "overmanaging". I have a feeling that he, along with many other fans, are getting tired of their first round meltdowns.
As for wont, I dont know, Mufusa. Steinman might be getting very restless, and, I would say that your team's chances just improved immensely, with the Yankees gone. I mean, you still have to finish LA, and get through the NLCS, but I think the Mets have a great chance to win it all now, unless you face Detroit, and that Tiger pitching shuts you down.

Mitch

 

[qjakal]

I ceertainly am not shedding any tears over them losing either, but I think you need to look at the pitching situation over there a lot longer than the managers moves. For 200 mil you should at least have 4 solid starters and a bridge to Mariano.....

Too many big name bats, not enough pitching.

Q

 

[Mitchell]

Agreed, Q. The Yankee pitching is old, and awful. The Braves found out this year, that great hitting, and no pitching, gets you nowhere, or not very far into the postseason. Atlanta's formula, that they used to win fourteen straight divisions, from 1991 to 2005, works best, decent hitting, and at least decent pitching. You cannot have a 4 plus and a half ERA, like the Yankees, and Atlanta, did this year, and expect to get into, or win in the postseason.

Mitch

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

I think the first round meltdowns are not Torre's fault. Lets be fair. You have A-Rod who is 1 for 14 in this series. Is 4 for 41 in his last 13 post season games which coincides with a 3-10 record. Is that Joe's fault that his guy who is getting paid 25.2 million a year is hitting .098??? Is it Joe's fault that Gary Sheffield was 1 for 12 in this series??? Is it Joe's fault that the players were at one point 0 for 18 with runners on base??? When do the players be held accountable for the team's failure??? Can't blame Jeter or Posada or Damon. Damon gave Mussina a 3-1 lead in game 2. Mussina gave it back. Randy Johnson stunk. Jaret Wright STUNK. This is what this organization gave Joe to work with. Do you see a Paul O'Neil??? Do you see a Scott Brosius??? Do you see a Chad Curtis??? No. All you see are all-stars who want to pad their stats. To fired Joe is NOT FAIR.

 

[giantfan121262]

I am a Mets fan but I think any notion to fire Torre is total bullshit!! Mitch, I usually like what you have to say, and every point you make is backed with total substance, but, this question, come on?? As well as what TF4U eloquently stated with the lack of execution among the star plauyer when it counts, let's ask another question; who is responsible for getting them 97 wins when they lost their two star outfielders for most of the season. You lose about 60 homers and about 200 RBI's among those two players alone. You piece together your farm system with guys like Cabrerra. How do you piece together a mediocre at best bull pen to get the ball to Rivera? I think he did a great job at managing with what he had (and lost). I don't think he over managed. He knew the limitations of his middle relief and got the most anyone can expect. The only name anyone heard of in spring training was Kyle Farnsworth

Let me ask another question, why the hell is it that the MANAGER gets fired when guys like A Rod and Sheffield, who get paid an AVERAGE of $18,000,000 per season between the two, stay on payroll? That is not Torre's fault for Christ sakes that these guys disappear in the post season. you mean to tell me that Torre doesn't go over plays and drills with these guys over and over again? He is really one of the GOOD GUYS in the history of the game. I just don't get it!!

 

[Mitchell]

Giant, you make excellent points, in regard to the injuries, and his status. Personally, after winning his ninth straight division title, and 10th in 11 years, I don't think he should be fired. I raise this question, to get feedback from other forum members, for two reasons.
One, we all know how George Steinbrenner is.. Winning a World Championship is the only thing meaningful to that man. Otherwise, he would not maintain a 200 million dollar payroll. It is insane to have that kind of payroll. The man will spend any amount of money needed, to try and buy the title.
Second, check out the Yankees message board at their official website. You wouldn't believe how many "Fire Torre" threads there are. Simply put, these people are jaded and spoiled. I agree with you, that I dont see why one manager gets fired, when 25 players making 10 mil a year, or much more, dont do their jobs. I guess, the reason is, that it is easier to fire one manager, than to trade 25 players, or however many players are stinking it up.
I like what the Braves have done. Look at how many years they screwed up in the postseason. Every year from 1991, to 2005, except for 1995, when they won it all, there was some disappointment, be it a World Series loss, NLCS loss, or NLDS exit. Bobby Cox is still there, as he should be, because I credit him with leading them to 14 straight playoff appearances. He won from 1991 to 2005 with what he had to work with, which was much less than Torre does, in a lot of those years. I am thrilled that the Braves didnt fire him. I love Bobby.
So, I agree with you, Giant, Torre should stay. I think he has one more year left on his contract. I hope George doesnt make any moves with Torre, because that would be a wrong move. I think the Yankees need better starting pitching, and a few younger players. Keep Torre, and, maybe if they make personnel changes, they will advance further than the first round in 2007.

Mitch

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

I am a Mets fan but I think any notion to fire Torre is total bullshit!! Mitch, I usually like what you have to say, and every point you make is backed with total substance, but, this question, come on?? As well as what TF4U eloquently stated with the lack of execution among the star plauyer when it counts, let's ask another question; who is responsible for getting them 97 wins when they lost their two star outfielders for most of the season. You lose about 60 homers and about 200 RBI's among those two players alone. You piece together your farm system with guys like Cabrerra. How do you piece together a mediocre at best bull pen to get the ball to Rivera? I think he did a great job at managing with what he had (and lost). I don't think he over managed. He knew the limitations of his middle relief and got the most anyone can expect. The only name anyone heard of in spring training was Kyle Farnsworth

Let me ask another question, why the hell is it that the MANAGER gets fired when guys like A Rod and Sheffield, who get paid an AVERAGE of $18,000,000 per season between the two, stay on payroll? That is not Torre's fault for Christ sakes that these guys disappear in the post season. you mean to tell me that Torre doesn't go over plays and drills with these guys over and over again? He is really one of the GOOD GUYS in the history of the game. I just don't get it!!

Great job Giantfan. Fact is, you have all these superstars and when the chips are down only two or three come through. Last I knew, you need to have all the guys working together. That is why I mentioned Brosius and O'Neil. It is also worth mentioning Tino Martinez. I mention these guys because they are NOT household names. They will not be in the Hall of Fame and they will not have their numbers retired. But they got down and dirty. They played baseball the right way. They aren't pretty boys. They aren't whining because fans are booing. They did their jobs. Cashman has given the manager a bunch of pretty boys. They were better off with the team that played from May to August. They worked hard and played hard. This is NOT Joe's fault. You MUST blame pretty boy Alex Rodriguez and Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi ( though Giambi has hit well in the past post seasons with the Yankees ). You must blame Mr. Happy Randy Johnson and Mike Mussina and Jaret Wright and even Corey Lidle a little bit because he did not keep the Tigers at bay when he need to.

 

[Knox The Hatter]

He already looks like he's been enbalmed...

 

[milagros317]

I voted "No". I hardly think it's Torre's fault that such high-salaried players as A-Rod and Randy Johnson stank in the ALDS.

 

[Mitchell]

Guys, I just read a report online which quoted from an article, supposedly in the NY Daily News, that George Steinbrenner is expected to fire Joe Torre! To me, this is an outrage! The man has won nine straight division titles, and ten of eleven, and has been to the playoffs EVERY year he has managed the Yankees, winning four World Series. Why doesnt King George blame his old, overpriced, unproductive players, like Arod, Johnson, and such, the guys ON the field, who didnt get it done? If the Yankees had failed to make the playoffs, or been in last place, then, yah, fire the guy. Atlanta won fourteen straight division titles, and bowed out in the playoffs at some point every year, except for 1995, when they won it all. Bobby was never fired for not winning in the playoffs. You just dont do that!
Some might hate me for saying it, but I swear, if Torre is let go, I hope one of two things happens. One, either the fans boycott the Stadium, and hit Steinboy financially, or, two, the Yankees fall apart, and get really bad, to teach them a lesson.
Steinbrenner is the absolute worst thing to happen to Major League baseball. He is the reason that the average fan cant afford to go to a game, with the crazy ticket prices and all. I hope Mr Torre gets another job, soon, which I'm sure he will, with his resume, and preferably with a National League team, and that next year, he sticks it to Steinboy and the Yankees. Damn, what a travesty!

Mitch

 

[Mitchell]

I spoke to my father this morning. My father has been a Yankees fan for nearly 60 years, and he is not the most patient person in the world when it comes to failure. Trust me, I'm his son, I know. If I used to bring home substandard report cards in school, I used to hear it, big time. This was his take on the Yankees situation.
My father said that the idea of hiring Lou Pinella, or whoever else, does not solve the situation of the players who failed. He believes that the Yankees should make over the whole roster, and maybe be prepared to not make the playoffs for a year or two, to get better later on. In my father's mind, he said that if he were Steinbrenner, he would trade Arod, Sheffield, Johnson, and maybe even Giambi. He also would not keep Mussina. His feeling is that you get rid of the high priced, old, unproductive players, and retool with good youth, even if you dont make the playoffs for a year. This doesnt sound like a bad idea. I mean, the Braves were lucky to keep winning divisions, but even they retooled with younger players a couple of times during their run. Look at when they dispatched of guys like Pendelton, or Bream, to bring in guys like Chipper, or Neagle, and then later on, when they let guys like Glavine and Maddux go, and still won divisions with younger players like Hampton, and Ortiz.
I personally agree with my father's assessment, and we dont usually agree on much, but I dont think that the Yankees can go on as they have been. If major moves arent made, they may continue to be a team that wins 90 odd games a year, and exits in the first round.

Mitch

 

[leafstk]

I'd like to see him fired and have the Jays pick him up.... gotta wonder about the skip we have now, having fought with two of his players this past season. I think Torre's a brilliant manager, they'd be stupid to blame it on him.

 

[Mitchell]

leaf, the majority of the people on the Yankees message board are blaming Torre for what happened, and, if that isnt bad enough, Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle, (although I didnt hear the interview, because I cant get all sports radio WFAN from NY during the day, only at night), but supposedly, Lidle called WFAN, and was trounced in a radio interview with their famous sports talk hosts, Mike and the Mad Dog. I know that Lidle pitched for your Jays for a while.
I personally dont think the Yankees should fire Joe either, they should just get rid of all their unproductive players. Some people are saying that the Fire Joe threads on the Yankees board are just the fans popping off after a tough loss. I think it is possible that Steinbuyer will fire Torre, but only time will tell, I guess.

Mitch

 

[Mitchell]

I just read an article on Comcast sports news, that made me feel at least a bit better about this situation. Apparently, the Yankees players are rallying support for Joe Torre, and taking responsibility for their own poor performances against the Tigers. The article stated that the players have said publicly that the defeat was not Torre's fault. Hopefully, with the support of the players, Steinbuyer will think before he acts, and not fire Torre now. Were I him, even if I didnt want to give Torre a new contract beyond 2007, I would let him come back to finish out his contract, see how next year goes, and deal with it after next season.
I truly hope the Yankees bring Torre back for 2007. He is a good manager, one of the most successful in modern day baseball history, and, hopefully, the Yankees often volatile owner won't make a rash decision, and will not hold Joe as the scapegoat, for the poor performances of 25 multilmillionaire players who underachieved in the ALDS.

Mitch

 

[Goodieluver]

I like the "odd" hatred for the yankees. Many fans bitch that steinbrenner buys up the talent cuz he has the money, but no one yells at the mets, red sox, atlanta and to a degree the whitesox now cuz theyve topped 100 mil payroll, why are they not chastized for spending large money for talent? Dont blame Georgie Boy for havin money and usin it, hell, look at the mavericks.

I would hope torre goes so they get pinella, who was on the cubs list for mgrs. Last thing i need to hear on the media nonstop is all the pinella talk from his outbursts. Atleast Bob brenley will be quiet and not cause a comotion in the papers

 

[Mitchell]

Goodie, the Braves dont have a 100 mil payroll anymore. The last three years, Time Warner has cut it to 80 million, and it's been at 80 million since 2004.
You mentioned Torre going. Personally, were I Torre, knowing how George is, I would voluntarially step down and resign tomorrow, before George would have a chance to fire me. Although Torre's players are supporting him, he's very embattled, and it seems like Steinbrenner is just waiting to pull the trigger and fire him. I wouldnt give him that satisfaction.
Although I think Joe should really stay, as what happened in this series isnt his fault, if it looks like he is going to be fired, I say, resign first. I dont know if this will happen, but this is what I would do.

Mitch

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

I like the "odd" hatred for the yankees. Many fans bitch that steinbrenner buys up the talent cuz he has the money, but no one yells at the mets, red sox, atlanta and to a degree the whitesox now cuz theyve topped 100 mil payroll, why are they not chastized for spending large money for talent? Dont blame Georgie Boy for havin money and usin it, hell, look at the mavericks.

I would hope torre goes so they get pinella, who was on the cubs list for mgrs. Last thing i need to hear on the media nonstop is all the pinella talk from his outbursts. Atleast Bob brenley will be quiet and not cause a comotion in the papers

There is a huge difference between overkill and having a high payroll. The Yankees have an All-Star at every position. Fact is, show me the team that has a $225,000,000 payroll. Only the Yankees. The closest is Boston at $130,000,000. Fact is, Yankee fans have thrown it in everyone's face that they are Yankees fans and we are not. They think they are better. So someone like me who is not a Yankee Hater but does not like the arrogance of a Yankee fan has me rooting against them though I like Derek, Jorge, Bernie, Mariano, Jason, Robinson, Torre, Mazzilli. Their payroll will always be a factor though. If they spend almost $100,000,000 more than the next team then they have NO BUSINESS going out in the first round as pathetically as they did. But you see, you learned this last year Goodie in that pitching and timely hitting and good defense wins championships. The White Sox did the job last year. The Yankees learned this post-season that the Tigers had MUCH better pitching than they did. For all the money they spent, they don't have pitching and that is funny.

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

Goodie, the Braves dont have a 100 mil payroll anymore. The last three years, Time Warner has cut it to 80 million, and it's been at 80 million since 2004.
You mentioned Torre going. Personally, were I Torre, knowing how George is, I would voluntarially step down and resign tomorrow, before George would have a chance to fire me. Although Torre's players are supporting him, he's very embattled, and it seems like Steinbrenner is just waiting to pull the trigger and fire him. I wouldnt give him that satisfaction.
Although I think Joe should really stay, as what happened in this series isnt his fault, if it looks like he is going to be fired, I say, resign first. I dont know if this will happen, but this is what I would do.

Mitch

Mitch, I have a question. If you had a $7,000,000 contract and you are 66 years old and the only way you could get the contract honored is if you worked the 2007 season or get fired, but if you walk away and resign like you suggested you get NOTHING!!! Which would you do??? Joe Torre has 7,000,000 reason to stay with the Yankees.

 

[Mitchell]

You're right, 4u, and I guess when one is talking about 7 million dollars, you cant make it about pride. What I said was emotional, not practical. Joe should not resign, due to the money, and if he gets fired, either now, or even after part of next season, he still gets his 7 mil. When one is looking at that kind of money, I guess he does need to wait to see what George does.

Mitch

 

[Goodieluver]

There is a huge difference between overkill and having a high payroll. The Yankees have an All-Star at every position. Fact is, show me the team that has a $225,000,000 payroll. Only the Yankees. The closest is Boston at $130,000,000. Fact is, Yankee fans have thrown it in everyone's face that they are Yankees fans and we are not. They think they are better. So someone like me who is not a Yankee Hater but does not like the arrogance of a Yankee fan has me rooting against them though I like Derek, Jorge, Bernie, Mariano, Jason, Robinson, Torre, Mazzilli. Their payroll will always be a factor though. If they spend almost $100,000,000 more than the next team then they have NO BUSINESS going out in the first round as pathetically as they did. But you see, you learned this last year Goodie in that pitching and timely hitting and good defense wins championships. The White Sox did the job last year. The Yankees learned this post-season that the Tigers had MUCH better pitching than they did. For all the money they spent, they don't have pitching and that is funny.

I didnt learn anything. To win a world series you need defense up the middle, timely hitting and relief, always knew that

My issue is why is no one complaining bout the mets cuz they have high payroll and all stars or that boston has become the new cash cow of the AL

 

[ticklingfeet4fu]

I didnt learn anything. To win a world series you need defense up the middle, timely hitting and relief, always knew that

My issue is why is no one complaining bout the mets cuz they have high payroll and all stars or that boston has become the new cash cow of the AL

Because the Yankees payroll is $225,000,000 and the Mets are $103,000,000. Fact is, the Mets payroll is in control. They have lots of youth. Tell me, in games one and two who were the youthful rookies or second year players in the starting lineup for the Yankees??? Robinson Cano. That is it. EVERYONE else was brought in from other teams or have been Yankees for a long time ( ie. Derek and Jorge ). The Mets had David Wright and Jose Reyes making league minimums this season. Their starting pitcher in game one wasn't even on the roster when they broke camp. Jose Valentin was signed to a Minor League contract after his awful season with the Dodgers a year ago. How much do you think John Maine and Endy Chavez and Jose Valentin make??? How much do you think Aaron Heilman, Duaner Sanchez, Ramon Castro, Lastings Millage, Michael Tucker, Chad Bradford, Pedro Feliciano are making. I gave you 10 guys on this Mets team that contribute daily that aren't household names and aren't making lots of money. So to complain about the Mets payroll seems a bit silly. They have about five or six guys in total who make the payroll what it is. That is probably why no one is complaining about the Mets payroll.

 

[Goodieluver]

Because the Yankees payroll is $225,000,000 and the Mets are $103,000,000. Fact is, the Mets payroll is in control. They have lots of youth. Tell me, in games one and two who were the youthful rookies or second year players in the starting lineup for the Yankees??? Robinson Cano. That is it. EVERYONE else was brought in from other teams or have been Yankees for a long time ( ie. Derek and Jorge ). The Mets had David Wright and Jose Reyes making league minimums this season. Their starting pitcher in game one wasn't even on the roster when they broke camp. Jose Valentin was signed to a Minor League contract after his awful season with the Dodgers a year ago. How much do you think John Maine and Endy Chavez and Jose Valentin make??? How much do you think Aaron Heilman, Duaner Sanchez, Ramon Castro, Lastings Millage, Michael Tucker, Chad Bradford, Pedro Feliciano are making. I gave you 10 guys on this Mets team that contribute daily that aren't household names and aren't making lots of money. So to complain about the Mets payroll seems a bit silly. They have about five or six guys in total who make the payroll what it is. That is probably why no one is complaining about the Mets payroll.

You did not mention or go to the issue of the redsox, you made issues of the cheap mets players, you think willy mo peny is honestly worth 1.5 mil or worthless keith foulke for 7 million?

Also i was wrong, Anahiem is the third highest behind NY and boston but mets have the highest payroll in the NL

AND btw, bradford is making over a million for a setup man, and the dynamic duo of shawn green and loduca are costin them close to 16 million combined