Thought of the week from TC Video

[tickler_n_black]

i found this prayer to be very interesting. anyone have comments?
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Dear God, we come before you today to ask forgiveness and seek your guidance.
We have ridiculed the absolute truth of your word and called it pluralism.
We have worshiped other gods and called it multiculturalism.
We have endorsed perversion and called it alternative lifestyle.
We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.
We have neglected the needy and called it self-preservation.
We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.
We have killed our unborn and called it choice.
We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self-esteem.
We have abused power and called it political savvy.
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.
We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.
And we have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.
Amen.

 

[the_Baron]

you speak the truth my secret indian friend. go in peace.

 

[BigJim]

I gotta comment.

Crapola.

Cheers.

 

[the_Baron]

liberal agnostic! ^

 

[Sadistictickler]

I got some comment too: I love atheïstic immorality

 

[blankpage]

This is old but still good.

I have one thing to add.

It's exploring the paradoxes that keep us alive.

 

[MrMacphisto]

hey now... I'm a liberal agnostic as well... lol..

"We have let our clergy molest our children and call it fellowship." There... how's that for part of the prayer?

 

[Cav88]

We have mislead and called it Spin.
We have been fat and blamed it on Mcdonalds. (There food is crappy anyway)
We have masturbated constantly and called it abstinence. =P

 

[Admiral Trouser]

lol, figures. Which right-wing Evangalist came up with that pile of nonsense, hmm?

Perhaps they should have added "We lapse into narrow-mindedness and call it Religeon". Certainly, it fits the tone of such an enlightened prayer....

AT

 

[Dave2112]

Now, now...the thought was put out there in peace. Let those who find meaning in it do so, and those who don't at least take a good thought for what it is.

We've all failed and we all atone or make or peace with it in different ways. All are valid. Or maybe you don't believe any of these things are failings. That's cool, too...it's your call.

But let's make sure we keep it civil, okey-day?

For my part, TiB, thanks for posting. I'm a big one for perspective...

 

[Admiral Trouser]

Eh, apologies...for the record, I do agree with *some* of the statements in TiB's post, but...those kind of things just irk me. Ah well....sorry peeps...

AT

 

[BigJim]

Eh, apologies...for the record, I do agree with *some* of the statements in TiB's post, but...those kind of things just irk me. Ah well....sorry peeps...

AT

Just for the record mate, I thought the "we've been narrow-minded and called it religion" comments was pretty funny. But then I would think that, wouldn't I?

Seriously though, although some of history's biggest smegs have been done in the name of God, I don't wish to insinuate that all religious people are narrow-minded. Some of the people of faith I've met here have been immense fun to chat with.


Peace peeps.

 

[evilqueen]

Let those who find meaning in it do so, and those who don't at least take a good thought for what it is.

Which good thought is that? The one that ridicules the open-minded as pantheist, the needy as lazy and the pro-choice as murderers? You have the authority to ask for civil discourse but none to direct my opinion of this "prayer," which IMO is hogwash. TIB asked for comments; that's mine.

 

[tickler_n_black]

hey folks.
i didn't say that i agreed or disagreed with any of it.
it's not MY prayer.
i found it on the internet and thought it would be a good topic for conversation. and judging by the heated replies.... it is!

stay calm though. no one is making you do anything.

 

[tickler_n_black]

Which good thought is that?

i can't speak for dave, but maybe he was refering to these as good thoughts...

We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.
We have neglected the needy and called it self-preservation.
We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self-esteem.
We have abused power and called it political savvy.
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.
And we have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

all things that we could improve upon as a human society?

 

[evilqueen]

I'm quite calm. Does disagreement imply I'm not? You find the prayer interesting, I find the mix of it to be unsavory. Simple as that.

 

[kis123]

I personally agree with the prayer to a certain degree, and anyone who has read any of my previous posts regarding spirituality (not religion) pretty much knows how I feel.

I think this world has changed drastically and has over analyzed everything we come across. No wonder why some people are so polarized spiritually these days. Many think they have the answers themselves and don't need any spiritual guidance. I'm glad they have it all figured out. I'm not that self-evolved...I'm glad for the help my God gives me.

There are a lot of people on this board that do not believe that a loving and just God exists. Great for you! Once again, people are entitled to their opinions even when I thoroughly disagree. For those of us who do, we can find a lot of meaning in this prayer and know we have a long way to go as a people.

 

[Flatfoot]

That's the whole trick with spirituality. So many are not willing to accept that faith is supposed to supersede logic. People can be so blinded with logic, that their minds will not try to perceive something greater. Sometimes ya just gotta push the "I believe" button.

 

[Admiral Trouser]

"Blinded by logic?" No offense meant here FlatFoot, but I'm sure that its the other way around: After all, logic is only the Truth, right? A way of thinking that gets you to the right answer of (most) questions...so how can one be "blinded" by it? To me, a reliance of Faith over anything else strikes me as lazy...it's so easy to believe in anything when it tells you that you don't need to *prove* it before you can subscribe to it, and that it "transcends" logic.

Anyway, this is going off topic I think. I'll save my thoughts for the appropriate thread

AT

Edit: I *seriously* need to start proof-reading my posts ...

 

[kis123]

"Blinded by logic?" No offense meant here FlatFoot, but I'm sure that its the other way around: After all, logic is only the Truth, right? A way of thinking that gets you to the right answer of (most) questions...so how can one be "blinded" by it? To me, a reliance of Faith over anything else strikes me as lazy...it's so easy to believe in anything when it tells you that you don't need to *prove* it before you can subscribe to it, and that it "transcends" logic.

That is not lazy, sometimes it's just the way it is. Not everything can be logically explained. For those who need a logical explanation for everything that happens in life is having an unrealistic life experience. Plus it can wear a person out because there are some things that don't have a logical sense.

AT, I have read many of your posts and understand that you are not a person of religious faith. That's okay because you are entitled to stand by whatever beliefs you have. I do agreee with you in regard to faith should not be entered into blindly. That's what happened to the followers of many cults (David Koresh, etc.) and it could eventually kill someone. I feel that a person's beliefs should be only the beginning to the pursuit of better understanding. There are many things that I don't understand as far as my faith is concerned. I just chose to trust God as I know Him to fill in the blanks as they appear through revelation, research, and sometimes just plain old common sense.

Now, back to the spirit (no pun intended) of the original post.......

 

[Dave2112]

Just to clarify my reason for posting what I did. I wasn't trying to justify or discredit the prayer itself, just reminding everyone to keep civil about topics that have proven to be hot potatoes in the past. So far, the discussion has been civil, even if the two sides of this discussion aren't. That's cool, that's what debate, disagreement and discussion are all about. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone specifically said anything out of line yet.

Rather than come down with a hammer once things get icky, I like to attempt to provide some balance proactively from time to time. That's the kinda Mod I am.

As for my own personal feeling on this prayer, I can honestly say I'm about 50-50 on it. I think it's valid to a point, even though Man seldom likes to have his faults pointed out to him. That being said, there are two ways to look at things and some of the "failings" pointed out can be considered strengths from a certain point of view.

And by the way, Jim, you made an interesting point about religion, death in the name of God and narrow-mindedness. But I wouldn't apply that to everyone with a belief in God. You've referred to me in the past as a relatively wise person (shows how much you know, eh?) and I have a very deep-seated faith. The thing is, I have no need for, or trust in, any organized religion. And that's what I think you were talking about. BIG difference between Faith and Religion.

 

[Flatfoot]

"Blinded by logic?" No offense meant here FlatFoot, but I'm sure that its the other way around: After all, logic is only the Truth, right? A way of thinking that gets you to the right answer of (most) questions...so how can one be "blinded" by it? To me, a reliance of Faith over anything else strikes me as lazy...it's so easy to believe in anything when it tells you that you don't need to *prove* it before you can subscribe to it, and that it "transcends" logic.

Anyway, this is going off topic I think. I'll save my thoughts for the appropriate thread

AT

Edit: I *seriously* need to start proof-reading my posts ...

I don't take any offense. It's kind of a bullet-proof argument. Especially since by the laws of the scientific method, you can't really "prove" the existence of a higher being. That's exactly why I'm willing to accept the existence of one. Spirituality and science just don't mix. If there is a higher being, we'll probably never be able to perceive one, because our minds cannot really comprehend the true nature of God. I apologize if my statement about being "blinded by logic" sounded harsh. It wasn't my intention to come off that way. I took a college course on Christianity (required by Campbell University.), and it was one of the many things they taught us, while showing us some videos by Creationists. Creationists will never be taken seriously by the scientific community, because they cannot produce any hardcore facts, outside of using things from the Bible to explain the existence of God. The whole argument is based on faith, and faith alone. Faith in the existence of a being who does not talk to us directly, and faith in a book that does not say anywhere,

"The following is a trademark of God, produced by Divine Book Publishing, copyrighted so-many years ago. All rights reserved."

It's easy to question the source, when we have no written proof, otherwise. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, spent the first five grades wearing a uniform at the mercy of nuns in a Catholic school. At that age, there was no "questioning" of God's existence. Once I became old enough to be able to question it based on logic, I still chose to accept the existence of a God, because it certainly isn't going to hurt to believe in one.

A long time ago, I got into an accident in a Geo Metro, and I was broadsided on the driver's side by a lunch truck. If you saw how caved in the door was, it's a wonder I came out with nothing save a few bruised ribs (In a Geo Metro, it had to take an act of God for me to have survived!). Since then, I've kept a St. Christopher medal in my truck (The patron saint of safe journeys, who carried the Christ child across a river.), and the first thing I do when I get in my truck is to say a quick prayer to St. Christopher. I have not been in a single accident since. I've come close a few times, but I trust St. Christopher was watching over me. This may not be the greatest example of "evidence" proving the existence of God, but among other examples, it's enough for me to push the "I believe" button. I'll continue talking to God each night, whether or not he would speak to me directly, and I'll continue to have faith. Oh well, enough of my rambling.

 

[Admiral Trouser]

Hmmm. There's a number of things I'd like to question in your post, Flat...but I won't. It's nigh-on impossible to successfully argue a point of logic to someone who's faith is so solid...simply because such a disposition requires you to suspend all notions of logic in the first place. So I'll let this lie for fear of getting over-zealous and over-stepping the mark

Ciao,

AT

 

[kis123]

Just to clarify my reason for posting what I did. I wasn't trying to justify or discredit the prayer itself, just reminding everyone to keep civil about topics that have proven to be hot potatoes in the past. So far, the discussion has been civil, even if the two sides of this discussion aren't. That's cool, that's what debate, disagreement and discussion are all about. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone specifically said anything out of line yet.

Rather than come down with a hammer once things get icky, I like to attempt to provide some balance proactively from time to time. That's the kinda Mod I am.

As for my own personal feeling on this prayer, I can honestly say I'm about 50-50 on it. I think it's valid to a point, even though Man seldom likes to have his faults pointed out to him. That being said, there are two ways to look at things and some of the "failings" pointed out can be considered strengths from a certain point of view.

And by the way, Jim, you made an interesting point about religion, death in the name of God and narrow-mindedness. But I wouldn't apply that to everyone with a belief in God. You've referred to me in the past as a relatively wise person (shows how much you know, eh?) and I have a very deep-seated faith. The thing is, I have no need for, or trust in, any organized religion. And that's what I think you were talking about. BIG difference between Faith and Religion.

I agree wholeheartedly with these points. I have been trying to put my faith into words only to incur the wrath of others I accidentally offended. I apologize for that without apologizing for my spiritual beliefs and values. There is a huge difference between faith and organized religion. To be exact, the way organized religion is set up, I want nothing to do with it. It's racist, sexist, violent, eletist, along with a myriad of other adjectives. It's caused both myself and my children immense pain and humiliation because organized religion excludes more than it includes.

I do believe in absolutes and I stand by those beliefs. I do believe that there is a definite right and wrong way of living and that the rewards or consequences of that living are eternal. However, I don't believe that the God that is portrayed in many churches is the same God who is. I believe that people have messed things up so much that it is difficult to find God in church.

The opinions expressed by me may not necessarily reflect those that are reading this post.........

 

[MrMacphisto]

Confessions of an amateur scientist

I'm very non-religious, but I will admit... Certain principles of science require almost as much faith as religion. For example, I've never seen an atom, but I can infer its existence. The scientific principles that are classified as physics and thermodynamics often require a certain amount of faith, but the thing that allows me to make the leap of faith is that science generally explains itself well. Most principles simply fall into place when experiments are done to question them.

I suppose this could be a similar explanation as to why some people believe in God. They "feel" the presence of a divine being and/or the Biblical (or Buddhist, Islamic, Hindu, etc.) principles ring true to them. I've found that, while many Christian principles make sense to me, I simply have never had any reason to believe in God. I've never "felt" any divine presence, nor do I expect to. Things like gravity can be easily demonstrated, but the existence of God is something that even Christians admit is beyond our perceptions.

Perhaps, what Admiral Trouser is getting at is that our minds (whether or not by the hand of God) are more suited for critical thought using logical principles. There is no logic to belief in a higher being. This doesn't make belief in a higher being invalid, but it does make it difficult to logically defend your faith. One can ask the question: If your belief is in God, how is it any different from another's belief in Buddha? Neither belief relies on logic, yet most religions have a tendency to suggest that their beliefs are more valid than another's. The collectivist movement tried to solve this problem, but as you can see from the aforementioned prayer, there are many that disagree with this idea.

On the other hand, there are many, like myself, who have decided that the odds of creatures as simple-minded as we are have very little chance of accurately interpreting the nature of a divine being. Therefore, people of this agnostic school of thought generally avoid the issue altogether or point out the futility of trying to figure out if there is a God. By the way, the reason why I'm not Atheist is that disbelief is a faith of its own. No one can truly know if there is a God or not. Keep in mind though, that those who choose to believe in God could be absolutely right, or they could be believing in a more complicated version of Santa Claus.