Why must we support our President?

[omega]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yanno

Please don't run away wih the idea that I'm pro-Brit over American. I see us all as citizens of the same world, who happen to have the misfortune to be governed by a bunch of arseholes who like to keep us aprt in seperate nations. King George III was an evil old bastard and no mistake. (Even before the lunacy!)

I never had the idea that you were proBrit over American. You did ask at what point does a leader go in self-service before the people are no longer bound to support them. One answer is the American declaration. In it are given the reasons that those colonists could no longer support the king's rule over them. The reasons given in the declaration may not be the only reasons that people can have to discontinue support but they are one beginning place to consider your question.

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yanno

I never had the idea that you were proBrit over American. You did ask at what point does a leader go in self-service before the people are no longer bound to support them. One answer is the American declaration.

Sorry O, I thought you were having a joke at my expense for being a Brit. Didn't know you were being serious. Now, are you saying that people should blindly support their leader until said leader has gone so far that the people feel the need to wage war on him?

My question wasn't really meant for that sort of arena. I meant specifically the people of the US and the UK, about their President and Prime Minister. What would Dubya have to do before he forfeitted the duty loyalty of his citizens?

 

[amk714]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yanno

What would Dubya have to do before he forfeitted the duty loyalty of his citizens?

A difficult question to answer, Jim. I don't know if this applies, but during the Vietnam War a lot of people dodged the draft because they thought it was immoral to fight. So I wonder if Presidents Johnson and Nixon forfeitted duty by asking American men to fight in a war that they disagreed with. Anyone else?

 

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yanno

So I wonder if Presidents Johnson and Nixon forfeitted duty by asking American men to fight in a war that they disagreed with. Anyone else?

Over the war they did, certainly. I don't know if that would include all areas of policy. As AMK said, anyone else?

 

[omega]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yanno

Now, are you saying that people should blindly support their leader until said leader has gone so far that the people feel the need to wage war on him?

No I don't think we have to blindly support a leader until revolution is warrented.

If the state ever put forth a law that if I were to obey the law I would be commiting sin against God, then the state no longer has my support on that issue.

One example is when the disciples were arrested by the Jewish council and ordered to never preach about Jesus again. The disciples reply was, "Judge yourselves whether we must obey you or obey God."

 

[Strelnikov]

In wartime, there's a difference between lawful dissent and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Using Vietnam as an example, most street protestors fell into the first category. Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda fell into the second. It's too bad Lyndon Johnson never asked for a declaration of war. If he had, those two could have been sent to prison, as they richly deserved.

Strelnikov

 

[BigJim]

In wartime, there's a difference between lawful dissent and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Using Vietnam as an example, most street protestors fell into the first category. Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda fell into the second. It's too bad Lyndon Johnson never asked for a declaration of war. If he had, those two could have been sent to prison, as they richly deserved.

Strelnikov

What about John Lennon Strel? What category would he have fallen into and what do you think should have been done to him?

 

[R. Davis]

I can see Krokus point. Politics and religion always get people pissed off. I don't trust Pres. Bush. He doesn't have a clue on how to balance domestic and international issues. I'm an American who would like to see a little more PEACE, JUSTICE, and someone looking out for the small Joe, Who's trying to make things better for his or her family.

 

[Strelnikov]

Jim, John Lennon was a UK citizen. As regards Vietnam and the American politics related to it, he was JAFO. His views didn't matter, and nothing should have been done with him.

Strelnikov

 

[Biggles of 266]

just an interesting note:

the Uniting Church of Victoria and Tasmania are planning mass civil disobedience by refusing to pay any 'war taxes' that will be imposed by the government. The Queensland church is meeting in a couple of weeks and will decide then what to do about it.

What do you think about churches getting involved in political actions? Some Uniting Church members attended anti-vietnam rallies too, and were arrested.

Biggles

 

[tactillianlover]

"Blind faith in your government will get you killed"
-Bruce Springsteen

Before a considerably large chunk of hell broke loose - 9/11 -
I recall thoughs such as... if Teddy Roosevelt saw the anti-trust
situation we have today he would be spinning in his grave! The richest
country in the world lets little children stay bogged down in poverty!
The private medical community(H.M.O.) take padded profits for themselves. The corporate welfare in any given and every given year is
greater than the social welfare ten fold(possibly a hundred fold).
Thirty years ago a vast number of vocations could provide a single weekly paycheck that covered a mortgage on a family sized house, the purchase of a decent automobile, and all the basic costs to raise three children and a pretty decent paid vacation for that family. Since then the cars price tag inflated as did houses,food ...pretty much everything. Not the wages of most americans though. What a convienent dillemma for Rotten C.E.O.'s, and their social superiors!


Had 9-11 not happened ,I wonder if President Bush would even know how to pronounce Iraq. Just keep a known enemy or six on the back burner. If we don't stomp on that inbred, mange and rabies ridden
pitbull after we smash his dog house in the dessert we can always
wag him later.

In the film White Sands, Mickey rourke's arms dealing character
says " We need to keep them fighting each other or they will come after us." Well we did pretty good at keeping them in arms and at each other's throats and they still found time to come after us!

Folks , the store's been left in the hands of less than worthy
individuals (not all politicians and buisiness tycoons but more than
any sane individual would like to admit.)It's been going on for generations. Turning their back while the robber barons carry the steaks and potatoes and other choice american resources out the rear kitchen door.

Of course many of you know this. And many of you know the saying "Business as usual" of which our president and numerous others
in the political- lobbying- gigantacorp realm of this world practice
with vigor when it comes to domestic affairs.

And while I don't like Bush personally, I would damn sure protect him
with my life if need be. He is our president. And if he's letting the
kitchen get robbed here at home, well it's a family tradition. And
who elects many of the sellouts in D.C.? And who buys the Nikes and the gasoline that used to be pumped by gas station employees but we now pump ourselves- at no savings I can assure you.

Later,

Tact

 

[BigJim]

Jim, John Lennon was a UK citizen. As regards Vietnam and the American politics related to it, he was JAFO. His views didn't matter, and nothing should have been done with him.

Strelnikov

JAFO=Just another fucking ??????? whatever. John Lennon made himself very unpopular. He was touring America and doing concerts to raise money for the anti-war effort. Nixon and Hoover hated the guy wih a passion and he had a thicker FBI dossier than Ho Chi Min. They were doing everything they could to get him kicked out of the country, without it actually looking like they trying to get him kicked out of the country. He wasn't that popular with the UK government either as he did a tour to raise money for the orphans of the Bloody Sunday massacre.

The FBI actually tried to label him a terrorist supporter for that and used it to help them order him out of the USA.(Which is stunning since they funded the IRA for years!) They were bending the truth in order to fulfill their own ends like they always have and always will. There's a big difference between raising money for orphans and speaking out against war and those bastards who pass the buckets round in American bars, where the money ends up buying guns and semtex.

Again I see this thing of national identity being crucial if you want to have a point of view. John Lennon is considered unimportant because his parents shagged on the wrong side of the Atlantic Ocean. Even between two countries that are as good friends as the UK an the USA, there is this thing of "keep your noses out of our business". With Americans trying to change us it can get into the realms of sanctions and industrial contracts being witheld. You CAN actually change us forcibly because of your financial and industrial might. Yet when someone trys to change attitudes over there just by expressing his free born opinion there is a huge backlash because he isn't American, so he should keep his nose out and his ideas to himself. People have a way too inflated opinion of the importance of their own country I think. (All countries, not the USA singularly.) Until common people lose the ides of being isolationist, (no matter what their nationality) and see everyone on the planet as being their compatriots, then there will always be division.

 

[TicklingDuo]

What do you think about churches getting involved in political actions? Biggles

Interesting, Biggles. I'd like to hear how that comes out. Since your question takes us somewhat off the original topic, I'll start a new thread to respond.

Ann

 

[Strelnikov]

JAFO = Just Another F**king Observer.

I get annoyed when other Americans tell me how to run my life. In a democratic society, sometimes I have to tolerate it. But from people from another culture - even our cousins the Brits - that's out of the question. Go ahead, say whatever you like on the subject. That's what this forum is for. Just don't feel offended if we fail to take your advice.

I'll say it again. What you do at home is your business. What we do here is ours.

Strelnikov

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

The idea of supporting our Pres. means to understand the position that he sits in.

Not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about being understanding that he's the Pres. Just a man, but one with a lot of responsibility.


Robert Blake in 2004!

 

[ShiningIce]

*sigh* Give it up Jim some people are just too stubborn to change.

 

[Oblesklk]

People have a way too inflated opinion of the importance of their own country I think. (All countries, not the USA singularly.) Until common people lose the ides of being isolationist, (no matter what their nationality) and see everyone on the planet as being their compatriots, then there will always be division.

That's very nicely stated

I view humans as that...humans. I've always been taught all beings belonging to the species homo sapien are to be treated equally until they commit an act that merits a loss of respect or honor. Perhaps I was taught incorrectly.

We've had these political borders between us all for so long, we've come to believe they actually "mean" something.

And no, I don't really support the American president very much, for my own reasons. But I don't have to. Luckily that's a right we have left room for...the right of dissent. Doesn't mean I hate the country. Just means I don't see eye to eye with one man. He represents many, but he will never represent me.

 

[ForgottenTcklr]

I don't think we need to conform our views to that of our Pres.

Just realize that he is our Capt'n.

Robert Blake in 2004!

 

[BigJim]

That's very nicely stated

I view humans as that...humans. I've always been taught all beings belonging to the species homo sapien are to be treated equally until they commit an act that merits a loss of respect or honor. Perhaps I was taught incorrectly.

We've had these political borders between us all for so long, we've come to believe they actually "mean" something.

I don't think you were incorrectly O, just that it'll be some time before all the people who think like this come out of the woodwork and make all the others how backward teir thinking can sometimes be.

Me and Biggles in 2004!!!

 

[omega]

The idea of supporting our Pres. means to understand the position that he sits in.

Not about agreeing or disagreeing. It's about being understanding that he's the Pres. Just a man, but one with a lot of responsibility.


Robert Blake in 2004!

I've been going to mention this and will now.

One thing I really appreciate about George W. is that he has insisted that all of his staff dress appropriatly. Meaning coat and tie for the men and appropriate business wear for the women. I think I have heard it stated that when Bush is in the oval office he always has on his coat and tie.

To me it shows that he respects the position of president and the responsibility of the position. I think it also shows a great deal of respect toward the Amercian people that he understands the importance of his responsibility as our leader.

I realize he could dress in coat and tie all the time and be a real jerk. But what we wear does communicate lots.

 

[Biggles of 266]

does he still nap during the day and knock off work at 4:30?

 

[omega]

does he still nap during the day and knock off work at 4:30?

I once read about a work place where one manager would leave every Friday about noon. The other managers wondered what this guy was doing leaving work early. One Friday they followed him and he went golfing. They confronted him on the course about his skipping work. He looked at one manager at a time and asked if their department was waiting on any work from him and his department. All answered no. He said, "I have done my work and when my work is done so am I."

Don't be jealous of the president just because he knows how to work effeciently and get his work done in a timely manner.

 

[BigJim]

Don't be jealous of the president just because he knows how to work effeciently and get his work done in a timely manner.

OH MY SIDES!!!!!!!! Since when has any politician been efficient and timely in meeting deadlines? A two trillion dollar national debt does'nt exactly boast for efficiency and workaholism.

 

[Biggles of 266]

I'm not jealous, I'm only a student so I've got plenty of free time to waste.

I'm just saying, he may wear a coat and tie (not like the thong that clinton used to wear to press conferences), but he's not exactly working his ass off. There should always be more work to be done. Hell, he's leading the most powerful nation on earth, how can he even sleep at night for worrying about what might happen while he's not in control?

 

[omega]

I'm not jealous, I'm only a student so I've got plenty of free time to waste.

I'm just saying, he may wear a coat and tie (not like the thong that clinton used to wear to press conferences), but he's not exactly working his ass off. There should always be more work to be done. Hell, he's leading the most powerful nation on earth, how can he even sleep at night for worrying about what might happen while he's not in control?

It could be that he knows he is NOT the one in control. That is for God.

Seriously though. I think we tend to give this job more importance than it really has. Yes, it is an awesome responsibility but how much does he really control? I always get upset when I hear people saying that the president should be focusing on the economy and taking care of our economy. It scares me to think that one person could control the whole economy. (Wait, I forgot about Alan Greenspan)

Another reason he may be able to sleep at night is because he believes he has surrounded himself with good people and he trusts them to do their jobs. A good president knows how to delegate to good people.