• The TMF is sponsored by Clips4sale - By supporting them, you're supporting us.
  • >>> If you cannot get into your account email me at [email protected] <<<
    Don't forget to include your username

The TMF is sponsored by:

Clips4Sale Banner

Tickling/Religion/Guilt & Evil...

qjakal

1st Level Indigo Feather
Joined
Apr 17, 2001
Messages
6,060
Points
0
Wow...it's like a time portal when you pull these old threads back up! This was written before I became a Moderator...sure could get away with more then..lol!



Just another thread........ That ought to cover a few topics, and keep things hopping! The discussions on evil are still on Scotts forum, but I didn't want to repost them unless you want them. Probably best to start our own anyway, and let those run their course there. Feel free to weigh in with an opinion on whether or not "we" are evil. Personally I have done things that I have regretted in the name of "Tickle Fever", especially when I was younger, but I don't think I did any lasting harm, either physically or mentally. The discussions on the nature of evil and the ramifications of them as applied to fetishes are interesting, but there's no definitive method to determine the actual intent of each and every person on the forum. Besides which, being creatures of free will we can act badly one day and be quite good the next, some of us experiencing guilt regarding the previous days actions, and others wending their path afterwards without that emotion. Religion is a HUGE topic, and we can debate the intentions and effect of it upon ourselves and society till doomsday. If you get a chance, drop in over there and read the one I posted concerning "True Evil" and the difference I perceive regarding that subject and "sin" in its various forms. Q
 
Last edited:
The basic definition of evil, is that of wrongdoing. The acts that we, the collective majority of this board,
partake in are ones that, the desire for lies deep within our psyche. To suppress these feelings, would
be to re-live the mistakes of the past. From thousands of years ago, to very recently, religion (one in
particular) has told people that feelings of sexual desire, and sexuality are wrong, and the act of sex
should only be had for the purpose of procreation. If you, and a willing participant engage in the act of
tickling for whatever reason, under whatever circumstances, how is this any different then, lets say a
massage? Or is that wrong too?

To address regret you have for things you've done in the past, just think of it as if you had gotten into a
fist fight. Things happened that perhaps you, or the other person couldn't control, and in hindsight, it
was the wrong thing to do. But does that make you bad? Have you committed a "sin"?
 
Depends...

Basically thats the crux of the discussion on the board. Certain religions define sin in such a fashion that the answer would be "yes", and in some it would be a serious one depending on the intent of your action(s). The posts that Scott/Pyscho and i had on his board addressed this in great detail, with Scott arguing that it IS a major sin, and I taking the position that it's barely a "misdemeanor", especially when performed as you stated, with consent and no malice intended. That's when we segued into the topic of "evil" and whether or not the TMF itself is evil, and was his action of creation in the origin of the board evil, and etc. etc... There can be no clearcut resolution to the questions, because it depends on the "map" you're using to judge the acts, but it still makes for lively discussion, especially since many of us are haunted by sinful feelings regarding the fetish. His position is almost classic biblical authority, and mine is one of enlightened ignorance backed up with life experience and observation... :)
 
Think about it. Religion is responsible for murder, war, not to mention the Holocaust. Hitler was apparantly acting of Biblical influeances. Of course, the Church denied it for years, they broke one of their own commandments. Go figure.

The point is, with religion being responsible for so much death and bloodshed, I hardly think anyone needs to be worrying about a fetish. Just accept it and enjoy it! Don't think about all this spiritual crap! There are much worse things out there than tickling. We are NOT evil, we're just having fun.
 
Is sex and masturbation a sin? If anything, having sex for pleasure is what seperates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom. We have free will. I'm sure God can appriciate that!
 
Uh, not that I'm down for the hardcore Christianity thing, but that faith DOES view sex and masturbatory activities as sinful in all but the most relaxed sects.

Ain't many faiths that cheer such things, actually. Most want men, specifically, to restrain our urges. We tend, historically, to go awry rather quickly, otherwise.

The simple truth is going to be evident from any leader of any religion. If you wonder, ask your rabbi/pastor/minister/father/sister/priest/insert-religious-leadership's-nomenclature-here.

The tickling ain't the issue, anyway. For some of them, the ENJOYMENT is an issue. For some, the deviancy from missionary position is, as said positioning doesn't include vellication. The bottom line is this - we aren't a religion, nor is anyone here proven to be religious experts. Ask someone that leads your faith.

dvnc
 
Hmmm..

Here's where we can agree to disagree. I believe the only true religous expert in your life is the one in the mirror. Having had a lot of experience with various faiths throughout my lifetime, the only constant I've found is myself and my own beliefs in what is right and wrong. Being "told" doesn't cut it for me, and I think most of the individuals on the forum are of a similar maverick bent. My grandparents were Cherokee and they obviously had their own set of beliefs and customs. The other set was Roman Catholic, and my parents are Lutheran and Methodist. I married a nice orthodox(at the time) Jewish girl, roomed with a Red Chinese atheist, and had a best friend who was Buddhist. It's all relative, but the constant is the desire by most organized religions to impose regulations and import your earnings to their side of the ledger. What is wrong for me may NOT be wrong for you, although I think we all agree that practices that harm others don't cut it(almost all agree...sigh), and that certain acts are nearly universally abhorrent. I categorize these as "evil". Your evil and mine may not be identical, but I would wager that we overlap to the tune of 95%. Following established organizational religous leaders is a mistake in my estimation, as it prevents an individual from performing the necessarily difficult task of thinking it out for themselves, which is the ultimate challenge. Just a thought... Q
 
Actually, qjakal, I mention such only 'cause folks are debatin' religions and that sin stuff. I'm certain that such experts don't hang hereabouts. I certainly ain't one.

Personally, I don't do religion. Wasn't raised for such. By your suggestion, my mirror don't hold any answers, facin' in any direction, as I have no answers for religion, and don't fully grok the point of it. My "faith", as such, is more a spiritualism and a naturalist deal than anything else. I think we had this conversation in another post, though.

With a person's askin' about such, I'm of a mind to redirect to a qualified source for such topics. I'm not it. I don't do them, and know only what I read, which disagrees with the actions done by the leaders of such, sometimes. Their rules confuse me. I stay away.

Bein' that this is Psycho/Sauron's deal, I figure it's best they debate such there, on his site. No real need for it, here, save to point out that many faiths have issues with things sexual, and as such, we're a bad deal to them for *gasp* discussing things.

Now, if y'wanna complicate this, add Feminism to this, and we can really swing. Feminism ISN'T sexual, but butts heads with most theologies to date, which is fine by me. When we get to Equalism, someone wake me. Unless we're all on even footing, I ain't playin'. Say, that means we here have somethin' in common wit' them. Far out. Like tickling, Feminism is on the other side of Christianity's fence, over which our boy, Psycho/Sauron, is pointin' fingers.

Regardless, it's still a quizzical topic to discuss in a digital room full of armchair ministers/etc., y'know? Mine is a perspective that it's beyond my desire to investigate. I ain't playin' that.

'Course, I'm dealin' wit' the combo of Religion and sin, specifically. Ain't touched Evil yet. The word has specific meanings in this language. Let's touch on those. Definitions:
e·vil (vl)
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

1.Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2.Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3.Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4.Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5.Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.

1.The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2.That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3.An evil force, power, or personification.
4.Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


There are others, found easily on dictionary.com (gotta love the net). We don't have a good example of evil here, without some REALLY subjective perspective. If a body finds this evil, they should stay away. Essentially, the evil I assume is bein' accused is that of a moral type, bein' that the accuser is pontificating the positives of a lateralist perspective (to wit, Christianity will save you, and tickling will damn you).

Now if I add guilt to this, it all goes crazy, 'cause I'll apply the psychology of things to it, as well as the accusational, and will still find this to be an argument that a) no one person can answer for all and b) is totally irrelevant to me in the way it was approached in Psycho/Sauron's original multiple posts.

All in all, it's a doctoral piece for some Psych or Theology major, and I'm WAY past playin' schoolboy here. Like you, qjakal, I ain't of a mind to buy the whole argument. The only way we disagree is HOW we disagree wit' it, Q. I leave others to their leaders, and you point them to themselves. The topics touched by this discussion are fodder for years of debate, though.

dvnc
 
I see the light!

Nah...I wish...lol. We do seem to be on the same general side of this issue, and to me it boils down to one simple fact/assumption. There is no great "evil" here, no more so then there will be on any board that has this many members registered. People will attempt to place guilt and make assumptions regarding the fetishists here and their actions and statements. The feminism analogy is apt, and we certainly see eye to eye on that! I know many more capable women than men in both my personal life and professional field. To state that a woman cannot be a morally correct religous leader based on her anatomy strikes me as nearing my definition of "true evil". This issue becomes important at various times in our lives, and letting the young 'uns be aware of some of the broader themes that they'll be experiencing and hearing about only seems prudent. Wish something similar to this had been around 40 years ago when I was struggling with this and other facets of the tickling fetish, but I muddled through as did many other members here....anyway, nice discourse and feel free to segue into "evil" topics, as they seem to be more universally interesting, and can include the very religions that purport to be battling said evil. I've been discussing just that topic with Scott on yet another forum, but he stills burns with that newly repentant myopism and probably won't be seeing much else other than what he needs to at this time. Always talking, "Q"
 
tickling not a sin

Let me define evil, in my own opinion, perhaps. Evil is when you hurt someone else, out of pride or hatred. If someone takes a gun and shoots someone, it is considered evil, yet if they kill someone because they are an unbeliever, or an abortion doctor, many would actually cobnsider it good. The act is the same, and the results are the same: death, destruction, trauma to the family, and the destruction of God's creation. Yes, abortion is wrong, but that's only my opinion. Killing an abortion doctor is as bad as having an abortion., however. But let's get off this subject, it always leads to fights.

I have met many people are complete utter asses, who treat people like absolute crap, and make life a living hell for everyone they work with and deal with. You have all met them. But if they pray the Bible, they consider themselves destined for heaven. Many christians will consider the person "saved." If, on the other hand, you have a person who is polite and kind, and treats everyone with dignity, treats everyone as if they are Jesus (as he speaks of if the Bible..) yet is an unbeliever, an athiest, or a Buddhist, or even a different denomination than the observer, well, they must be going straight to hell! they will say. Most protestants believe catholics are going straight to hell, catholics however, though stricter than most about sex, believe if you love God and lead a good life you can go to heaven (which is probably most of you on this forum.) Yet, many caholics are strict and prudes and think everyone but THEM is going to hell. There are so many facets of faith, no rules apply.

They say sex is only for procreation, YET, they have no problem enjoying it. Will they have sex only four or five times, only to have children? NO. believe it is best to wait till after marriage to have sex, but being single, I can't really say. If I find a girl who will love me with all her heart, and she wishes to have sex, I will have a lot of trouble saying no. I once thought of a product that would cause many christians to really hate me. Invent a drug to kill the pleasure effects of sex, and have the priests tell all christians they must take it, because deriving pleasure from sex is a sin. Problem solved! I know not one single person on this entire planet would take that drug. Again, case closed.

Is sex a sin? No. Is tickling a sin? Not even close!! Why is it worse to watch a tickling video, hell, a hardcore porn movie, and better to watch any Holywood movie where the action hero walks around shooting people at point blank range, impaling people on sharp objects, and basically watching humans cause intense suffering to fellow human beings?? Why is that better? Walk into a room full of christians, and tell them you watched Terminator II, and no one will care. Tell them you just watched a porn, and they will be horrified. Huh? I'm confused...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A fine post, mabus.

You do realize that, by applying your own definition of "evil", as opposed to the known and defined ones, that you're "out of bounds", as it were, for the purpose of classic argument or debate. No matter, though, as your point is a good one.

It is a ridiculous venture to assign this culture's interest as evil or wrong, as a generality

BTW, you just added to my Feminism complication with the classic violence complication. Personally, I sympathize with the confusion felt by folks sweatin' sexual gratification, but not violence. Weird.

Wow. Scott proved somethin' positive about us. Many think. Gotta dig that. Two things, actually, 'cause the sentiment here is mighty fine, too.

Like Oblesklk alwasy said...

Shine on,

dvnc
 
Mabus & The Monkey House

You should check out Kurt Vonneguts book "Welcome To The Monkeyhouse". It's a series of short extremely interesting stories, one of which deals with a drug exactly like the one you hypothesized for the church! Many of the other stories are quite thought provoking as well, and it should be required reading for anyone who likes to think...lol. I don't agree with many of the conclusions and situations he envisions, but they are a catalyst towards thought, and well worth the hour or two you'll invest! I smell a new thread...literature of the TMF! :) Q
 
Hi gang,well I guess i'm religeous to a certain extent.I don't however believe in any book,or man who tries to preach.I believe everybody has something that they get turned on about.If we didn't get arroused,how could we procreate?
I believe in right and wrong,and think it's pretty obvious to most which is which.
I've been pretty lucky in my life when it comes to tickling.I haven't met a woman yet who I couldn't get into it.But I also know that tickling wasn't enough for me to be happy,or keep the relationship together.
I'd like to know how any relationship,filled with love,caring,and faithfulness can be considered sinful or evil in the first place?Regardless of tickling,any healthy relationship is based on love,communication,caring,tenderness,and sensuality.It's not like we chose this fetish,we were born into it.Does that make us evil from birth?PLEASE!We are all made different,perhalps to find the true lifemate out there.
I met my soulmate recently,never have I known such love and pleasure.Do I think it evil what we do?Nope,I believe it's a gift and no less.
I don't hurt anyone,destroy lives,selfishly act out,etc...
It's about who you are.You can't change what turns you on,no matter how hard you try.
~maxtickler
 
Qjakal said that "I believe that the only true religious expert in your life is the one in the mirror." That's a restatement of the idea of "priesthood of the believer," which is basic to Southern Baptist theology (and indeed to the whole Protestant Reformation, at least it was at first.) Betcha you never thought you'd wind up agreeing with Jerry Falwell, now did you?

Strelnikov
 
Ouch...lol

Okay...as long as I don't end up on the same side of the fence as Sharpton, I can live with it...reluctantly! Been waiting for you to weigh in here Strelnikov...lol..figured you'd ahve an opinion on just how "evil" we are! By the way, Scott seems to have dropped off the face of the earth..can't raise him at either of his new forums....hope it's not serious, we just got started discussing stem cells and cloning when he booked. Q
 
Last I heard, Sharpton was INSIDE the fence, a guest of Uncle Sam at the Gray Bar Hotel. Too bad they won't keep him - he gives ordinary hustlers a bad name.

As kinks go, ours is pretty benign, doesen't even leave marks. Are we "evil" as Scott contends? Nah. I reserve the term for (1) those who knowingly violate the rules necessary for the preservation of civil society and culture, or, worse, (2) moral relativists who in the name of "tolerance" refuse to recognize the necessity of those rules and the necessity of applying appropriate sanctions against violators. To quote D V N C, "We tend, historically, to go awry rather quickly otherwise." As indeed we have, these past 30 years or so.

I don't buy Scott's whole program. Scott's God is a little too dour (mine has a sense of humor - He invented sex, didn't He?) Still, the man is at least trying to make things right, which is more than I can say for the likes of Sharpton and Slick Willie.

Strelnikov
 
Summation!

Nicely put Flatfoot (yeah...couldn't resist the rhyme...lol). I guess you've pretty well summed up my own basic position on this subject. In the Big Book Of Bad Things, I have a hard time worrying about (mostly)consensual tickling. If the rest of my slate is fairly clean, I'll be holding my head up rather high if/when I need to be judged for eternal assignment. We've discussed this fetish in terms of vampirism and a host of other negatively connotated habits, but in my case at least it's tongue in cheek for the most part. Not sure of your age, but I've been wrestling with your proposed question of "understanding" these intense emotions for nearly 45 years. I have memories of being under the table when my mother had friends over and shaking so hard looking at their ankles/feet that I nearly wet myself...at the age of 4 or 5! I've made my peace with it, although i'm still amazed at the intensity of emotion the words and acts of tickling can evoke! Figured as I got older the "rush" would fade, but it appears it isn't going to happen....sigh...gotta stroll into the Dirty Old Man phase with this added burden of an unaccepted fetish! It must be okay, because i'm still smiling! Glad you dropped in and hope ya stay...we've got many more interesting topics to cover in here...just watch out for that cynic Strelnikov...a veritable well of unhappiness..lololol...:p Q
 
Testify, my brethren.

Though I'm a Sci-Fi-Guy, I normally try to ignore a wretched little program called Lexx, but I've recently been forced to agree with one of its major themes: That true evil is rarely an aberrant desire to actively cause harm to others. True evil is when you act out of fear, out of ignorance, out of weakness, and out of selfishness. When you know what the right thing to do is, yet you don't do it because it's easier not to care, or easier not to look too closely at what you're doing, or easier to do what someone else tells you to do so that you won't have to face the burden of taking responsibility.

I put it to you that Scott's conversion stinks of fear. Fear of society and family condemning him as a perverted freak, fear of his possible fate in an afterlife with rules of entry apparently designed by an appallingly petty, irrational and capricious deity, and mostly fear that he's backed the wrong horse again and is desperate to convince us to join him so he can have reassurance through numbers. In the immortally wise words of Master Yoda, "Fear is the path to the Dark Side." I have never seen a single act performed out of fear that had positive results. Animals act from fear. Our Creator's greatest gift to us is the ability to reason and to think and to rise above our fears.

Is tickling evil? This is a case where the act itself is morally neutral, but the motivation has everything to do with it. I enjoy tickling when it's playful, affectionate, sensual, and basically a means to express love. Scott claimed that it was lust and only lust no matter what we called it, and no offense to anyone but I can see where some of the fiction (let me stress that, fiction,) could give someone that impression. To be honest, the "merciless tickle-torture of an unwilling victim" theme, popular as it is around these parts, leaves me cold. Some examples like the Nylon Dungeon series actively turn my stomach, but I recognize that that's because I'm upset by misogyny in any form. I know the BDSM people will say that non-consensual TK is really a kind of role-playing game about trust, power and control, and I can dig RPGs (as a Geek, I've got a dice-bag full of d20's that could knock out a frost giant) but my point is that underneath all of that you're still two people who care for each other and are expressing that love, even if it's through a rather ornate framework of stylized theatrical behavior. You're not actually going out and abducting innocent women to be your pleasure slaves for the rest of their lives, because I think, all fantasies aside, we can all agree that it would be wrong to treat somebody that way, to totally objectify and dehumanize them in the pursuit of your own satisfaction.

I can also understand why Scott would call simply discussing that evil, because he seems to have embraced some form of Catholicism (I don't know of any Protestant franchises that pay such heed to the Blessed Virgin and Her manifestations), and my biggest problem with Catholicism is that it claims God draws no distinction between performing a sinful deed and simply thinking about the sinful deed. The idea that you can be damned on the basis of having an abstract concept in your head without regard to the fact that you would never do it is a holdover from the Dark Ages, when much of Catholic doctrine was designed to keep the peasants in line through constant fear and not noticing that they worked a 160-hour week to keep the kings and popes supplied with solid-gold flatware. As a side note, Scott said on the old forum that he was once deeply involved in New Age and Alien Theologies (I haven't heard of this, but I suspect it's the Cultists who claim that the UFOs bear messages of peace, enlightenment, and environmental activism) which tend to be transparently inane twaddle created to separate the credulous from their money with brutal efficiency. If so, I'd politely suggest that he has a problem with gullibility that needs to be worked on before he goes any further with his new belief system, but I may be digressing.

I further understand that taking such fantasies and putting them into a written story is not an inherently evil thing, either. It's actually rather healthy; Jung called it "Owning your Shadow," recognizing that you have darker impulses, but not letting them rule you. Practically all occult traditions maintain that to name a thing is to gain power over it. By shaping and binding your Shadow side, and crafting it into the words of a story, you limit it and its ability to cause real harm in the real world. It's when you are afraid to face your Shadow that it gets out to cause trouble, because you don't want to look at it, let alone watch what it's up to. Fear of accepting your own darkside seems to be another item in Scott's anxiety closet. He also said that he felt that the constant masturbation was taking him away from God. (Never mind the fact that if you believe God is omnipresent, then there can be nowhere you can go that He won't be with you...) I have to say in rebuttal that if you're doing anything, whether it's masturbation, drinking, eating, or alphabetizing your CDs to the point that it dominates your life, then yes you have a serious problem. Only whatever it is you're doing isn't the real problem, it's only a symptom that you bury yourself in because you're afraid to face the cause. I'm not eating an entire Super-Size bag of Cheetos in one sitting because the Cheetos are evil and Satan is the CEO of Frito-Lay, it's because the satisfaction of a full belly is easier to attain than the satisfaction of my father's approval. I think Scott needs to ask himself whether his new faith is a real solution, or simply another form of fear-fueled avoidance behavior to distract him from whatever's really creating a void in his life. Like everything else, both tickling and religion only become unhealthy when taken to an extreme and become an end unto themselves rather than a means to an end.

On a final note, like WallStreet, I've gone to my local strip club and tickled several of the ladies there, and quite a few have tickled me back. I want to stress this point, that the tickling by itself isn't the point of the visit. The tickling has been done in a playfully affectionate manner, and has been part of a whole set of things I do for the ladies including foot-rubs, back-rubs, talking to them like human beings, respecting their dignity, making sure the experience is mutually enjoyable, and refusing to treat her as a dehumanized sex object. If a girl really doesn't like being tickled, I apologise and stop. The thing that I get so much enjoyment from is seeing them luxuriate in the only 5-15 minutes that week (or even month) when someone's concerned with making them feel good. I offer the image of a girl I had a session with last month: laying back on the couch, eyes closed, a blissful smile on her lips, giggling softly with contentment as I gently ran my fingers up and down her nylon-clad soles after she had just had a miserable night of being groped, leered at and indecently propositioned, and thanking me for being kind to her unlike the horde of drunken barbarians outside the couch dance room. I offer her real smile, the painted-on mask of the faux-seductive stripper persona fallen away, and her gratituide that somebody just once cared about the well-being of the woman inside the bustier and G-string, and I defy Scott and his fear-soaked, hatemongering vision of a god to tell me that I did evil to her.
 
Shy Guy...

C'mon Madkalnod...tell us how you REALLY feel..lol! Nice post buddy, very on topic and I hope it provided a release of emotion for you. Love those Straczynski quotes...lot of depth. You touched on several major points and themes we've been discussing, and expanded the ideas that have been tossed around quite nicely. The issue of fear and the effects of it upon our decisions and actions is very plausible in my opinion. Catholicism (my original church also) has so very many holes in it that's it's hard to know where to start....my favorite is the concept of redemption through genuine repentance, at any point in your life. The "last second" blessing that is bestowed upon dying evil characters in the movies illustrates it nicely, as well as the death row play whereby the murdering lunatic who has committed homicide is heaven bound now that he/she is repentant. Bah humbug to steal from Mr. Dickens indeed. My God is a reasonable,just one ,who will weigh both intent(that's what omnipotence is FOR bud..lol) and consequences of ones deeds in life, perhaps tempered with a bit of mercy, without being wishy washy about it. Evil SHOULD be punished, not forgotten. You discussed separating fiction from action, one of my all time favorite things too. If we could be shot for our thoughts, i'm thinking the planet would empty out pretty quickly! I don't necessarily agree with you regarding the Nylon Dungeon and its ilk, but the process of creating those stories and your right NOT to read and enjoy them is evident and correct. I happen to enjoy the FANTASY they represent, but I'm sure I wouldn't tolerate them in reality. Each to our own little heaven and hell, and may God take the slackers who won't choose between 'em! Keep them coming guys and gals...i know others WANT to vent on here...just let it rip, and we'll discuss it as we all see it. Q
 
God, religion, and church

Originally, I didn't intend to participate in the religious discussion, mostly because my negative attitude towards religious institutions is VERY emotional and sometimes insulting. But this discussion seemed too interesting to just sit back and watch.

As somebody already mentioned, people are constantly mixing up three completely different terms: God, religion, and religious institutions.

Religion is a very important evolutionary factor. It allays our fears of the unknown things of life (and more important: death). It provides us with the hope of a better world, and it sets rules for social behavior. Fear, despair, and injustice are huge obstacles for the development of creativity and our evolution in general, so the idea of religions was really meant to help mankind to survive and to bring evolution forward.

Any religious institution was originally designed to serve that purpose, too. But it provided the handle of power to fallible men, sometimes called priests, mullahs, rabbis, or magicians. Some cynics state the first priest was the first clever cheater to meet the first gullible man… Certainly you can't put them all into this category, but the more powerful those men became, the easier they could abuse this power. They simply took over religions and redefined them, mostly to further their own power. They created new rules, establishing them as "the Word of God", and they influenced the worldly rulers to enforce them. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church even perverted God to a menacing threat for all those who opposed God's representatives on Earth, them being the only people able to tame this dangerous, omnipotent beast.

And where is God? Personally, I don't believe in his existence. I consider the probability of his existence equal to that of his non-existence. God can't be proven, but neither can be atheism. If there is a possible place for God in my mind, he would be the sum of all the laws of nature. Mind you, not only the scientific laws. That way, he could be omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. But you can't act against the laws of nature, so the concept of sin has to be of worldly origin, not of divine source.

All the human mistakes committed "in the name of God" were not even the failures of a certain religion, but of humans abusing God AND religion for their own purposes. The concept of religion in itself can't be damned therefore, and I respect all those who believe in one or the other God. But I despise all those religion-mongers who claim a worthy idea for their own selfish ends.

An old farmer was once asked by the village priest: "Why do you never come to church? Don't you believe in God?" The farmer replied: "Oh, I've got no problems with God, only with his ground staff!" I strongly feel like this farmer.

Thanks for listening patiently, and my apologies to all those who feel offended by my view; I didn't mean to.
 
Imagination?

is it my imagination, or do we all (in general) hold approximately the same opinion regarding organized religous institutions? Part of this may be the recent scandals, most notably in the Catholic Church, but eleswhere as well in both past and present. Haltickling made an excellent point regarding the "why" of religion having been perverted by churches and organizations throughout history....the jihads and Crusades are an abomination nearly on the scale of the Holocaust when put into historical perspective. We have been taught that to kill in a holy righteous cause is acceptable and heroic. Why do we accept these statements? Don't we condone actions by our inaction to correct obvious wrongdoing? The "ground staff" (love that ...lol) is indeed flawed, and inevitably so, because they are also fallible beings. But...the organizations should be able to rise above flawed individual performances and accomplish great things, and institute sweeping reforms! They don't...they build mammoth gorgeous structures dedicated to "The Glory Of God", while the poverty and injustice piles up the base of these edifices. Nicely put, Haltickling....perhaps we're searching in all the wrong places for my pet peeve--- "True Evil". Q
 
Good and Evil, Heaven and Hell

I agree with you, qjakal, that it SHOULD HAVE BEEN the duty of religious institutions to contain those abominable corrupt priests/popes/imams. They failed because they were just human.

However, I have to get rid of a few more personal opinions. Your 'pet peeve True Evil' (LOL, I like that one) should be seen in a certain context, IMO.

As I said in my previous post, I believe that religion plays an important role in evolution. Part of this role was to install a system which allowed mankind to coexist, at least in the early small groups. This system required something like a conscience, a sense for 'good' and 'evil'. 'Good' was everything that helped to survive better than other groups, and 'evil' led to the inevitable extinction of that said group because of evolution's merciless selection principle. Religion was the means to enforce the rules for 'good' behavior. Priests (as religion's representatives) were soon liberated from the duties of hunting and collecting, so they had the time to think over and observe why sometimes the group succeeded, and why problems occurred sometimes. They found out how a group must cooperate to survive, and they postulated this behavior as 'good'. Certain behavior schemes endangered or damaged the group's success, and they were declared 'evil'.

Both the good and the evil are inseparable parts of human nature, two sides of the same coin. So religion's original purpose was to install rules to help the individuals behave right. They installed a sense of guilt for those who behaved 'evil', too. This moral system was and is passed on by parents, teachers, and priests. Please disregard the abuse of religion's power for just a moment.

Like in raising children, a system of rewards and punishments was required to enforce this moral system. That was when 'heaven' and 'hell' were invented by the religious leaders (and the system was adopted for the secular world as well, redefining rewards and punishments). Both heaven and hell are human inventions, to feed the hope for a final stage of a just world, while the real world is utterly unjust. Isn't it a good feeling to believe everything will be alright once we're dead?

The ancient religions had a different view of death. The 'Nether World' of Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians was very much the same as the real world, just in a different location. Christianity was, to my knowledge (I'm no expert), the first religion to define heaven and hell, and Islam later improved this concept to gruesome perfection. I stand corrected: it was really the Catholic Church who invented it, not the early Christianity. Jesus only spoke of his 'father's house, which has many rooms'.

And priests defined who was destined for the loveliest or the most dreadful of places. The believers were told to direct their actions and thinking to the 'Beyond', not to this world. That's one of the reasons of clerical animosity towards lust. During lustful moments, we tend to forget about our religious duties. And a sense of guilt as a punishment for lust was installed in our educations. In our case, tickling produces some kind of lust, whether sexual or not, so this is opposing 'religion' as the religious leaders have defined it.

Both heaven and hell are within ourselves. Don't let other people decide where you belong to, least of all religious fanatics. Just test yourself: Does your action further humanity, or does it block positive evolution? Usually, our preformed feelings for good and evil are quite capable of guiding ourselves, if we just listen to our inner voice, and our conscience. The few specimens who have no inner voice should just obey the written law, that's all.

Personally, I'd rather stay in a hell full of tickling and lust than in a bigoted, constantly hallelujah-singing heaven. A Jewish friend told me this: In early 19th century, Catholics and Jews lived together quite peacefully in Poland, but not without some subconscious animosity. During a village feast, the Catholic priest sarcastically told the Jewish Rabbi: "Last night, I dreamt of the Jew's heaven: It was a terribly dirty and overcrowded place, everybody was arguing noisily, and the stench was unbearable!" The Rabbi replied with a smile: "What a coincidence! Last night, I dreamt of the Catholic heaven: So clean, so peaceful and quiet, and what a lovely smell! But nobody was there at all!"

And I like Lee Marvin's rough, whisky-sodden voice in the old song 'I was born under a wandering star': "Do you know where hell is? Hell is in Hello!"

Oh, BTW qjakal: I intend to live forever, too, but not in this present body. I'll stay alive in my actions, my writings, and most of all in my beloved children. But that's something completely different…
 
CyberQ

I'm shooting for a LOT of years in this wreck of protoplasm...C'mon technology! Boy, you must have been hopping around waiting to weigh in on this topic..lol...some good observations that seem logical and likely! I always just figured we invented this stuff so all the old people didn't grab guns and have a hoo-haw ripsnorting free for all since they didn't have much time left anyway! Or grab big rocks/spears...---fill in weapon of choice appropriate to a time frame--...! I like your explanation better....stealing possesions and wives and husbands and such would lead to violence within a small group with most likely at least one death of an able humanoid. Obviously killing would reduce the group survival rate also, as well as make one less person to feed the hungry Shaman...lol!
 
Door 44 Productions
What's New

4/27/2024
Visit Clips4Sale for the webs largest clip store! Get details by clicking the C4S banners
Tickle Experiment
Door 44
NEST 2024
Register here
The world's largest online clip store
Live Camgirls!
Live Camgirls
Streaming Videos
Pic of the Week
Pic of the Week
Congratulations to
*** brad1701 ***
The winner of our weekly Trivia, held every Sunday night at 11PM EST in our Chat Room
Back
Top