Are safewords really necessary?

TMF Jeff · Nov 10, 2006

Lately I've been thinking that we've really sold ourselves short in the tickling community by latching onto safewords as a necessary tool. I mean, this isn't S&M where people are getting whipped with bamboo canes and there's a chance that someone could really get hurt.

My point here is that "I can't breathe," or "I'm having a heart attack!" should be just as effective as whatever word you're using to symbolize those phrases, or you're already in more trouble than you know. If you've let somoene tie you up, I think you should be able to trust them enough that when you start gasping desperately for air, or your face turns purple, they aren't going to say "Well, you didn't say your safeword, so everything must be just fine."

And other than that, at the end of the day, it's just tickling. Presumably the lee and 'ler have worked things out in advance so they both know what they're trying to accomplish in terms of intensity. But if not, then what's the worst that can possibly happen? Someone gets tickled too much. And if something serious happens, like the above-mentioned lack of breathing, then a safeword isn't what saves you: having chosen the right partner is.

Now, that being said, a lot of people are not ready for that responsibility as a top of any kind, and people should do what they have to do in order to be playing safely. I could name a half-dozen people off the top of my head who should never be given power over anything for any reason, least of all an actual person. But giving someone like that a safeword is not really much of a safety net, is it?

But by giving this power to the ticklee automatically and without discussion, and taking it away from the tickler, I think we're watering down the entire experience. It's not really a power-exchange anymore, it's the semi-convincing illusion of power-exchange. And unlike the cane-whipping, skin-cutting sadists, we could get away safely with so much more.

Am I the only one who sees it that way?

gabrielle · Nov 10, 2006

no, you're not ...

As already said in the other thread about safewords, I don't like the idea of a safeword at all, cause I wouldn't want to be able to stop my tickler from anything he wants to do to me. I want HIM to be in control.
I totally agree, that if something unexpected happens or you're in pain, you could just express, what's wrong. Yelling "pain" or "cramp" or even "pee"

should do it.

bttf4444 · Nov 10, 2006

I agree! I don't really like the idea of safewords. It does take control away from the tickler.

tklcouple · Nov 10, 2006

safewords

Interesting points.

In my opinion, safewords are a tool one can use while developing the tickler/ticklee relationship or with a new tickler. Once a level of familiarity and understanding is reached, they can be and are often discarded with that tickler.

Good points to both sides, I think.
Professor Tkl

Babbles · Nov 10, 2006

No, they're necessary (it all depends upon those involved of course)

Though you make valid points about trust and judgement,
luck is a huge factor w/re to partners of any sort,
and safewords clearly exist to make the interaction/communication much easier.

I haven't been tickled much, but on one or two occasions it did get to the point where I was very glad I had a safeword,

or really wished I did (with someone who never mentioned his interest & just "attacked."
He was released from the hospital eventually

).

But *seriously, I'm sure you're especially aware :idunno:

this can be torture, obviously,
even for those of us with the interest or fascination;

a potential overload of unbearable sensations which can be VERY unpleasant if overdone.

Sometimes a quick, easily remembered word is also much easier to articulate distress efficiently,
making it easier for the 'ler to identify that distress if it's not immediately distinguishable from other reactions... :ermm:

Especially if some unforeseen medical problem presents itself...

Only those who aren't sensitive themselves might not "get this," I'd imagine. In which case, the alternate example of bamboo sticks gives some idea...

But if you & your partner know each other's limits & have more fun without them, that's another story.

huskys · Nov 10, 2006

gabrielle said:
As already said in the other thread about safewords, I don't like the idea of a safeword at all, cause I wouldn't want to be able to stop my tickler from anything he wants to do to me. I want HIM to be in control.
I totally agree, that if something unexpected happens or you're in pain, you could just express, what's wrong. Yelling "pain" or "cramp" or even "pee" should do it.

I must say I agree. When I'm the lee, the ler has to be in control or there's not much point to it. And of course, when I'm the ler, its that feeling of being in control that gives you that thrill!!! :dogpile:

Banshee · Nov 10, 2006

How Fucked Up Is This?

bttf4444 said:
I agree! I don't really like the idea of safewords. It does take control away from the tickler.

This is screwed.

Jeff what if they couldn't get all those words out?

TklDuo-Ann · Nov 10, 2006

I both agree and disagree, Jeff. If, as you've suggested, an appropriate Ler and lee are paired up, then a safeword shouldn't be needed. However, there are a number of things that have to go into that decision.

If the Ler knows the Lee well enough to be aware of any possible issues that aren't so obvious, I think it's fine. If not, there could be problems. That brings up the communication issue, where a lee should know enough to identify any possible issues/boundaries, etc. Sadly, some simply don't do that...and many Lers don't know enough to ask. (Of course, many of those same folks don't use safewords, either.)

If a Ler is experienced enough (really experienced and not just claiming to be as some do), then they probably don't need the Lee to use one. But, many of those who hook up for play are both inexperienced. If you get a Ler who thinks that just digging in and going for broke every chance they get makes them experienced, then you could be asking for trouble. I've had people join in on me in the past who seem to go on auto pilot and have a single goal of getting the person to scream and give up as quickly as possible without any regard for the well-being of the lee. That kind of ler (of which there are many) is a danger...sometimes even if a safeword IS used.

There's also the very real issue that not everyone who enjoys tickling is into power exchange. Some simply enjoy the feeling and affection that go with it. For those people, I dont know if it would be a comfortable thing for them to not have one. I know I would never have gone without one with anyone but Drew before I was ready to explore that part of things.

In all three of those cases, I think a safeword should be used...or at the very least be an option.

If, however, the participants are known well enough to one another, the ler is experienced enough to quickly pick up on things and honor the needs of the lee AND the lee wants that kind of an experience, then I'm all for tossing the safeword and pushing the envelope. Still, there are only a handful of people with whom I'd be comfortable doing that kind of scene. With anyone else, if I choose to allow them to join in a scene, it's going to have a safeword.

TMF Jeff · Nov 10, 2006

Babbles said:
But *seriously, I'm sure you're especially aware this can be torture, obviously,
even for those of us with the interest or fascination;

a potential overload of unbearable sensations which can be VERY unpleasant if overdone.

Only those who aren't sensitive themselves might not "get this," I'd imagine. In which case, the alternate example of bamboo sticks gives some idea...

I don't want to minimize what you go through as a 'lee, but I think this actually illustrates my point.

In this scenario, you don't NEED it to stop, you just really want it to stop, which is distinctly different from what someone being caned would experience in a similar situation, when the threat of physical harm might require that things end immediately because of an emergency.

TMF Jeff · Nov 10, 2006

Banshee said:
This is screwed.

Jeff what if they couldn't get all those words out?

Two things...

first, as Gabrielle pointed out above, any word in that circumstace would work.

and also, not being able to get words out is a pretty big warning sign to anyone who should be trusted to tie someone up.

TMF Jeff · Nov 10, 2006

TklDuo-Ann said:
In all three of those cases, I think a safeword should be used...or at the very least be an option.

I agree with what you said, Ann, and this in particular is what I'm trying to get at. Safewords should be an option that people bring out of the toolbox when certain circumstances require them.

But in our world, for tickling, it's not something that needs to hover over every encounter like some smothering, politically correct blanket.

Babbles · Nov 10, 2006

Very fine line, if that...

MTP Jeff said:
I don't want to minimize what you go through as a 'lee, but I think this actually illustrates my point.

In this scenario, you don't NEED it to stop, you just really want it to stop, which is distinctly different from what someone being caned would experience in a similar situation, when the threat of physical harm might require that things end immediately because of an emergency.

Must disagree here -- I've *needed it to stop, thinking I was going to explode, and that can translate into any number of more complex physical reactions.... I don't doubt this has been used as real torture historically.

The sensations *are unbearable, probably equally -- it's said some can take pain and not tickling.....
But tickling *can be literally painful. We may not be receiving blows, but there can clearly still be internal physical damage or trauma w/re to heart & lungs especially, and then muscle contractions of other painful sorts....

I wouldn't normally quote myself, but there was also this additional context in my reply, which was seconded by a few others above

Babbles said:
Though you make valid points about trust and judgement,
luck is a huge factor w/re to partners of any sort,
and safewords clearly exist to make the interaction/communication much easier....

Sometimes a quick, easily remembered word is also much easier to articulate distress efficiently,
making it easier for the 'ler to identify that distress if it's not immediately distinguishable from other reactions...

Especially if some unforeseen medical problem presents itself...

You're right in that a 'ler should be alarmed if someone can't speak at all (in which case they've gone beyond the safeword stage, perhaps into the beginnings of cardiac arrest... :shock:

) but if that safety catch would be established & respected before that would occur, much trauma would be avoided more easily. Pardon me if I'm repeating.

TklDuo-Ann · Nov 10, 2006

MTP Jeff said:
But in our world, for tickling, it's not something that needs to hover over every encounter like some smothering, politically correct blanket.

Agreed. It depends on the situation. Of course, another plus of the safeword is that I can beg, scream, cuss and everything else and it's not going to stop unless that word is used. There's also the very real possibility that you might find yourself with a very timid ler who's going to keep stopping and asking if you're okay unless you make it clear that they can keep going until/unless they hear that safeword. All that stopping can kill the fun as well. But, then, if you're with an appropriate Ler, they'd know all of that anyway.

TMF Jeff · Nov 10, 2006

Babbles said:
Must disagree here -- I've *needed it to stop, thinking I was going to explode, and that can translate into any number of more complex physical reactions....

The sensations *are unbearable, probably equally -- it's said some can take pain and not tickling.....
But tickling *can be literally painful. We may not be receiving blows, but there can clearly still be internal physical damage or trauma w/re to heart & lungs especially, and then muscle contractions of other painful sorts....

I'd like to ask you a specific question if I could... assuming that you could breathe, and that you were not literally having a heart attack, what would happen if you were experiencing this and the ler kept tickling you anyway?

Also, Id like to reiterate that I'm not saying that nobody should ever use safewords. I'm saying they shouldn't be something we take for granted as being necessary.

TklDuo-Ann · Nov 10, 2006

MTP Jeff said:
assuming that you could breathe, and that you were not literally having a heart attack, what would happen if you were experiencing this and the ler kept tickling you anyway?

Can I answer that one?

(All provided medical issues are not involved...) If someone were to push me to the point of total oblivion like that, I'd probably be screaming and begging for it to stop. Eventually, I'd likely just pass out after a while...which is fine with me, but generally not with a ler. Either that, or I'd end up a blithering idiot in some insane assylum somewhere. lol

I have yet to find a ler I trust enough who's also comfortable pushing me that far.

Redmage · Nov 10, 2006

I think it depends on what you mean by "necessary." If a 'ler is inexperienced, or hasn't learned to read a particular 'lee well, then a safeword can provide a very useful failsafe. If a 'lee really likes pleading, begging, and asking for mercy, but doesn't REALLY want to get it in most cases, then a safeword can mean "Stop" when just saying "stop" doesn't. If a 'lee is gagged, then some sort of safe signal is extremely important.

The fact that tickling isn't technically dangerous really doesn't make any difference. In regular SM safewords aren't usually used to avoid physical injury, because an injury is usually already done before anyone could think to use a safeword. You prevent injuries by playing safely to begin with. A safeword is usually used when a bottom is approaching or has passed his or her limits, and that can happen just as easily in tickling.

gabrielle · Nov 10, 2006

MTP Jeff said:
I'd like to ask you a specific question if I could... assuming that you could breathe, and that you were not literally having a heart attack, what would happen if you were experiencing this and the ler kept tickling you anyway?

I'd like to answer this one as well

At this point I'm getting angry, starting to scream and curse, yet I would want my tickler to continue. My ex boyfriend never did, as he got kind of scared when I reacted that way. Still I would like to explore, what it feels like to totally lose control and truly hope I will find a tickler one day, with whom I can explore. Needless to say, it would have to be someone I love and trust very much.

bttf4444 · Nov 10, 2006

This is very interesting. Reading stories about people being tortured in painful ways can be very distressing. Yet, I do get turned on by the idea of someone being relentlessly tickled nonstop on the soles of his feet - like in my stories.

OnnaOtaku · Nov 10, 2006

We only have a safe word as a sense of security. I don't think it has ever really been used, but it is there for that "just in case" situation.

Mimi · Nov 10, 2006

As someone who enjoys both tickling and other (pain related) aspects of BDSM, I can say that I need a safeword more for tickling than I do for pain. It is far more trying on the senses and much, much easier to be pushed past limits. I admit I get nervous of lers who are not really ticklish themselves, or who have never been tied up and tickled beyond their limits trying to lay down what a lee should be able to take, or saying "it's only tickling". Until one experiences that for themselves, there is just no way to put into words how truly extreme it can be. It's far more than just tickling. Once past a certain point, it can become both emotionally and physically abusive. That can be a real problem.

Once I am pushed past my limits, I go into panic mode. And more than once that panic mode has lead to palpitations and hyperventilation. I don't care how well my ler knows me, in those situations I NEED a safeword. And given the fact I don't know when those problems will arise during a session, I won't play without them.

BellaRisa · Nov 10, 2006

Hmmm...

I suspect that my view on this is kinda different.

Everyone who plays sanely has something they can say to end the play. Whether it's "red", "I can't breathe!" or "arugula", if it's something a 'lee can say that immediately ends the play then it's a safeword/safephrase and we all know it. And is that necessary? Absolutely. Even people who dislike safewords listen to words that, well, keep the 'lee safe...

Perhaps what we're asking here is whether a 'lee should be able to stop the tickling whenever she wants to, instead of when the 'ler makes that decision, by uttering some word or phrase; many feel this interferes with the power exchange. Frankly that depends on who's playing. Most 'lees of my aquaintance feel honor bound not to utter anything that will upset the balance of power unless she's pretty sure she's about to die, and knowing that she has that word and making herself not use it no matter how heinous the tickling gets actually gives him that much more control over her body and mind, giving the session *more* of an edge and not less; and yes, I speak from experience :cool2:

. Furthermore, with those I play with, safewording without a good reason is dealt with swiftly and harshly and entirely not worth the price :firedevil

. And whether you're being smothered by safewords depends on who you're playing with; if it's getting in the way it's not about the word. :idunno:

Bella

Redmage · Nov 10, 2006

That's a good point, Bella. "Stop NOW, I mean it!" can be a very effective "safeword." Jeff's original post seemed to ask whether or not it was necessary to have a special codeword to mean that, but if you think about it then it really doesn't matter what signal is used to get that meaning across. If the larger question is "Should the 'lee be able to stop a scene?" then I'd say yes, in the case of any physical or emotional emergency. Aside from that, if everyone involved is comfortable with no "stop signal" then I'd say go ahead.

wendynpeter · Nov 10, 2006

Jeff,

In my opinion, it clearly depends upon the situation. It probably is true that the more intimate the relationship, the better a top can read a bottom. On the other hand, in a casual play or new relationship situation, having a safeword is absolutely crucial, if for no other reason than for the trust established by agreeing to respect the bottom's limits and the formalizing of that agreement by use of a safeword. I'm sure you've played with many bottoms that love to beg, plead and carry on because it helps them get into the scene more - "stop, stop, oh my god, I'm dying, You're KILLING ME" - but most of those bottoms only feel comfortable losing themselves in a scene like that if they know that "yellow" REALLY means "hold on a second." All this assumes that the bottom is really ticklish, and could reach her or his limit. It also assumes that "I'm having a heart attack" could itself be a safeword (phrase), but only if the bottom would never say anything like that while actually enjoying herself, in the heat of the moment.

Another thing I'd like to say (and this is in no way specifically directed at you, Jeff) is that I don't think it's for us tops to say. I think the rules of safe play are in place to protect the bottom, and so it's for THEM to decide whether they want to use them... right? Does anyone disagree?

May I ask what prompted this question? Was there a specific situation? What's going on?

TickledToDeath · Nov 10, 2006

Necessary? NO. Maybe, as said here, when first developing a trust between ler and lee but the safeword takes control away from the ler and regardless of what any others may say and or believe, control is and always should be in the hands of the LER not and NOT the lee. IF the lee demands a safeword is implimented for what ever reason, then the ler should oblige but in due time, once full trust is established, safeword usage should deminish.
Personally, I, when I am the lee, never have or use one and will never "utter" one

oke3:

. I for the most part, dislike using them but will IF I have to as the LER.
This discussion has been done many times.
Safety is the key above all, bottom line.
There could be "intentions" at times when the lee is truely wanting to find his/her "breaking point" whereas he/she honesly cannot take anymore and wants to be tickled to that point(and perhaps somewhat beyond), so a key word can be implimened for that purpose along with other agreements for the tickler to not stop regardless of what the lee says(and again, a good ler will know when to stop whether it be for good or briefly and again it is all a trust issue).
Most of the time, the LEE, if given a word to use that will stop the tickling, even though she/he may not want the tickling to stop, will use it.
Again, tis all a matter of trust.
Without trust.............well.........then you shouldn't play in the first place.

Damn I can go on for infinity with this....lol.

TTD

TickledToDeath · Nov 10, 2006

gabrielle said:
As already said in the other thread about safewords, I don't like the idea of a safeword at all, cause I wouldn't want to be able to stop my tickler from anything he wants to do to me. I want HIM to be in control.
I totally agree, that if something unexpected happens or you're in pain, you could just express, what's wrong. Yelling "pain" or "cramp" or even "pee" should do it.

Yes, the lee yelling "Pain" "Cramp" "Heart Attack" should be enough for the LER to know to stop and do so.

:2poke:

Are safewords really necessary?

TMF owner and co-founder

TMF Poster

TMF Poster

TMF Regular

2nd Level Orange Feather

3rd Level Blue Feather

1st Level Red Feather

2nd Level Black Feather

TMF owner and co-founder

TMF owner and co-founder

TMF owner and co-founder

2nd Level Orange Feather

2nd Level Black Feather

TMF owner and co-founder

2nd Level Black Feather

1st Level Black Feather

TMF Poster

TMF Poster

1st Level Red Feather

1st Level Black Feather

4th Level Blue Feather

1st Level Black Feather

2nd Level Red Feather

2nd Level Violet Feather

2nd Level Violet Feather