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10 People Killed in Minnesota Shootings

kis123 said:
This tragedy is the result of an angry and disturbed young man, not gun control laws (or lack of them). I've said it before and believe it bears repeating that nowadays children do not have the coping skills and the emotional fortitude we had "back in the day." I grew up picked on and teased pretty much wherever I went. Living through the Twiggy generation as a heavy child made my life a living hell. Sometimes I even have flashbacks and I haven't been in school in MANY years. Did I wish them dead? YES!! Did I fantasize revenge on a regular basis? HELL YES? But, did I EVER act on my thoughts? Certainly not!! So why are so many children committing heinous acts of violence today? We never would've dreamed this stuff up twenty years ago.

I disagree... Kids are more violent today only because of two things: our culture is somewhat numb to violence, and we hear about it more. It's quite possible that school shootings occurred as far back as the '50s, but we simply didn't hear about it. Lots of things used to get censored in the media. Even today, our coverage of the Iraq War and insurgency is censored by the government. This could just be a matter of not knowing about previous incidents.
 
MrMacphisto said:
I disagree... Kids are more violent today only because of two things: our culture is somewhat numb to violence, and we hear about it more. It's quite possible that school shootings occurred as far back as the '50s, but we simply didn't hear about it. Lots of things used to get censored in the media. Even today, our coverage of the Iraq War and insurgency is censored by the government. This could just be a matter of not knowing about previous incidents.

You're welcome to disagree, but my opinion remains the same. This did NOT happen when I was a teenager anywhere in the United States! My mother didn't keep me from anything, R-rated movies, violence, sex scenes, or anything else! I still obeyed the law and respected human life. These kids are getting smarter and more deviant by the day. They use the knowledge we're blessed with for heinous and evil things and not for the good of mankind at all. But when you are so narcisstic to the point where even you own life is meaningless in the end, something is severely wrong.

I won't even open the door to censorship by convenience. The media exposes us to violence, sex, drug use, and every deviant behavior known today. But they conveniently censor and filter what's going on in the Middle East. There's a reason for that, but it should be discussed in the P&R forum so I won't open the door here.

I also lay some responsibility at the door of many parents in today's society and their so-called parenting methods. Nowadays, many parents either spoil and pamper their children, or they abuse or neglect them. Both have dire consequences on the children.

#1-the television is NOT the babysitter and responsible for raising you children. You, the parent birthed them, now GO AND RAISE THEM TO BE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS!! Sounds like a novel concept in today's society, but I guarantee if people began doing it, a lot of lives would be saved. If it means that someone should cut back on their work hours to come home and be there for your children, than you give fewer physical gifts and give more emotional ones. Your kids won't remember what toys they played with, but they'll remember when you've been there for them. My son proved it to me recently but I'm going to spare the details for now.

#2-require more of your children than just existence! If a teacher calls home saying your child's a problem, get proactive, not defensive. Every teacher's not out to get your kid. If "little Jonny" is getting teacher calls home regularly and you deny he has a problem and blame others for his manic behavior, it's a time bomb waiting to explode. Get help by any means necessary.

#3-stop trying to buy your children's love, roll up your sleeves, and work with it! There were times I told my children "no" because they're going to live in a world where they're going to hear it repetedly. Too many parents drown their guilt and inadequacy by buying their kids everything they want instead of spending time with them and keeping them close. Once they turn teenagers, you have a stranger in your home with a false sense of entitlement that will make you count the days to his/her 18th birthday (provided they make it that far).

I could go on forever about responsible parenting, but I have a lot of things to do today. I have one adult and 1 15yr old so I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. I had problems with my son for years. I dropped my pride and got him some help. It took nearly two years of hell, but I just kept kicking in doors until someone put him in a position he is in now-high school graduate with a very good job he can hang his hat on for the next 30 years if he wants to. He's better off than I am!

This young man had a pretty high deck stacked against him, but there are people who have gone through worse and have made it into society successfully. You wouldn't even know they had problems unless they shared them with you. Someone dropped the ball with this child, he slipped through the cracks, and he took a lot of people with him.

His grandfather was a cop-not all cops are bad, but many of them have issues. I wonder what the dynamics were between the two of them. Must not have been that great considering the end result. How did this child get access to the guns? Someone may not have been very responsible with their weapons. There are a lot of gaps in this story and a lot of directions it can go. This child was basically either taunted or ignored by his village. He's a classic example of it taking a village to raise a child.
 
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Seems to me, people are disagreeing over which component of the tragedy to emphasize, when they all fit together. Let me identify a few of the questions that are involved.

1. Why was he so angry? For that question, everything about being picked on fits in, and if he had issues with his grandfather, that goes in too.

2. Why did he express the anger in the specific way he did? For that, TV violence could play a part, but I don't think it's anything quite so simple. I think people need to be able to explore specifics and nuances, rather than embracing the extremes of either "it's because of the violence on TV" or "no no you can't have censorship." We need to be able to consider the question of just how much and what kinds of violence on TV have effects, and then we need to be able to explore what could be done to alter it. Note, I'm not advocating anything specific, I'm only noting the ambiguity of it all and saying there are questions to explore.

3. Why did he have access to the weaponry? In this particular instance, I don't think tougher gun laws would have stopped it. Might they stop other crimes? To that I say probably yes. As I note above, gun control is another subject we need to be able to explore rather than reducing it to strident either-or stances.

And note my preamble at the top, that I set out to "identify a few of the questions that are involved." That is all that I claim to have done here.
 
kis123 said:
You're welcome to disagree, but my opinion remains the same. This did NOT happen when I was a teenager anywhere in the United States!

To use a morbid example, plenty of lynchings occurred in the U.S. a long time ago. Those weren't exactly reported very often in the media of the Deep South. If you can cover up something like that, don't you think the cover up of a school shooting is possible? I'm not saying that it has happened, but I fully acknowledge the possibility.
 
MrMacphisto said:
To use a morbid example, plenty of lynchings occurred in the U.S. a long time ago. Those weren't exactly reported very often in the media of the Deep South. If you can cover up something like that, don't you think the cover up of a school shooting is possible? I'm not saying that it has happened, but I fully acknowledge the possibility.

Yes, that was a morbid example and very far off point. But let's ride with it for a minute. The lynchings and other racial atrocities did come out. They couldn't stay hidden forever and that was 40-50 years ago. We have the camera footage in the archives so things were getting exposed even when others tried to hide it. Even the Kent State campus shootings by the National Guard made news. That's the closest we had to a school shooting in the sixties.

This kind of stuff was NOT going on in the sixties, 70s, or 80s at that matter. What happened to where it's going on now? There are many theories and opinions. Unfortunately, none of them will bring those 10 people back. So we can have all the discussion and debate we want-we have that luxury. Those 10 people's fate will not change.
 
Here's another angle to consider. Columbine was not the first school shooting of the '90s. The first shooting I'm aware of is the one that occurred in 1996 at Moses Lake, Washington. If I remember correctly, this event did not get much media coverage because only 2 students and 1 teacher were killed.

Also, you can't argue that America is the only first world country that has had school shootings. They have occurred in the U.K., Canada, the Netherlands, Germany, and in Sweden. The following link is a timeline of recent shootings and where they have occurred. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

As this timeline shows, the vast majority of shootings have occurred in the U.S., but if they can occur in countries where attaining a gun is relatively difficult for a civilian, then gun control doesn't seem to be the issue.
 
The impression I've gotten is that his family and his peers at school chose to bury their heads in the sand rather than deal with him. After all, many kids that age have problems, and if you're not close to the vest, and paying close attention, you're gonna think that one kid's problems are as severe as another's.

A lot of his issues stemmed from his mom, who was as far from being compared to Donna Reed as I am in becoming the House Majority Leader. His father was killed in a gunfight with the police. The anger can fester over time...some kids find an outlet, others overcome. Jeff wasn't strong enough, what he needed was an honest, committed intervention. Instead, we got this.

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Seems whenever something like this happens, I keep hearing entreaties to ban things. As you all know, kneejerk reactions have nothing to do with debate, or reasoned discourse, they only come from the pushing of emotional buttons. Frankly, between y'all and me, I'm sick and tired of calls to ban things...and that goes for ANYTHING, from obscenity, and pornography, to responsible ownership (a term which applies to the VAST majority of gun owners in this country) of firearms. It's not the aforementioned that constitutes the threat. It's easy access to firearms by children and adolescents who aren't responsible enough to use them. In many parts of this country, it's customary to give some fourteen year old kid a gun on his birthday. Part of the culture, a mindset that's very difficult to change. Voicing a call to issue a blanket ban on gun ownership speaks volumes about a voicer who really hasn't given the concept much thought. Kneejerk reactions are kinda like that.
 
Dear Knox:

I tried to say these exact same things, and it turned into a mess. There is plenty of blame to go around that starts from having lousy parents (and probably grandaparents) to people who teased, ignored, or dismissed him. Add that to his inability to cope with his emotions and easy access to handguns, you have a recipie for disaster. The only good news to this is that many more people didn't get hurt.
 
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