9/11- A blessing in disguise? (At least temporarily)

[stdave]

I think 9-11 was a blessing for the right wing element in America anyway. They can now do and say what they want, and simply point to 9-11 to justify their actions.

 

[Ignatz]

For the record, the Crusades were a long overdue counterattack to centuries of militant Muslim expansion, beginning with Mohammad himself conquering Mecca at the head of an army. So please spare me the hand-wringing about the big, bad Christians picking on the poor innocent Moslems.

 

[BigJim]

For the record, the Crusades were a long overdue counterattack to centuries of militant Muslim expansion, beginning with Mohammad himself conquering Mecca at the head of an army. So please spare me the hand-wringing about the big, bad Christians picking on the poor innocent Moslems.

Or Richard the Lionheart torturing and killing non-combatant women and children (one knight described the streets in, I think, Can't-stand-his-nose-pulled as being "hip deep in corpses") and ordering the murders of disarmed and surrenduring enemies, whilst Saladin, his Islamic opposite number, set aside an enclosure for the Christian counterparts and took prisoners alive.

BigJim - wandering off down the road warbling "Oh when the mooooooooooooooon is in the seventh house....."

 

[The Pianist]

For the record, the Crusades were a long overdue counterattack to centuries of militant Muslim expansion, beginning with Mohammad himself conquering Mecca at the head of an army. So please spare me the hand-wringing about the big, bad Christians picking on the poor innocent Moslems.

My main problem isn't whether things have been one sided or not. Its more that religion has been used to justify much violence over the years. Almost nothing is actually done in the name of religion, people have their own self sufficent reason for doing things.

I agree with almost everything you mention, Pianist, except one: France has banned religious symbols (e.g. headscarves) from their public schools, not in general. This is in line with their policy of strict separation between church and state.

I didn't know that and in that case I don't have a problem with it. However, a couple of schools here in Australia have tried a similar thing, banning the traditional religious symbols of only Muslim people... but thankfully thats been met with a lot of opposition as far as I know. If everyone has to accept and deal with something, thats ok... but when you start discriminating against people thats not ok.

 

[MrMacphisto]

For the record, the Crusades were a long overdue counterattack to centuries of militant Muslim expansion, beginning with Mohammad himself conquering Mecca at the head of an army. So please spare me the hand-wringing about the big, bad Christians picking on the poor innocent Moslems.

Well, if we're gonna take that angle, then all the pagan religions that the Christians destroyed in the Middle Ages should be evidence that Christians should be attacked now. Now, obviously, I don't believe that we should do that, but your logic is just as flawed as that statement I made.

 

[JohnnyB]

Actually as far as I know (and I do watch a hell of a lot of the History channel! and anything on tv has to be real! 😀), the crusades were started by the christians want of land, wealth and power. It had nothing to do with religion, that was only used as an excuse. Constantinople was one of the richest cities there has ever been and chrisiantity wanted it. In fact, in the end, it was only conquered when the Muslims allowed the Chrisitans to peacefully move in and the christians bled the place dry, abusing the trust that was put in them.

 

[luvgirlsfeet]

Usa Usa Usa

Saying that Sept 11 is a blessing in disguise is like saying that hurricane Katrina was just a gentle breeze, Dont you realize what happend that Tuesday morning Its pisses me off just writting this. Nobody in they're right mind crashes 4 planes and kills everyone on board and then many more people in the area. I am a firm believer in "Eye for and eye" To be perfectly honest the only muslims I dont like are the one who organized 9/11 those are the people who should die. Let me tell you something. This thread never should have started your pissing off alot of people and frankly I'm one of them. I honestly dont care if I'm banded for saying this but your a stupid piece of shit

Sincerely,
ONE VERY PROUD AMERICAN WITH RED WHITE AND BLUE BLOOD

 

[Cosmo_ac]

as Granny flash so well said, "The problem with eye for an eye is everybody ends up blind."

 

[BigJim]

Saying that Sept 11 is a blessing in disguise is like saying that hurricane Katrina was just a gentle breeze, Dont you realize what happend that Tuesday morning Its pisses me off just writting this. Nobody in the're right mind crashes 4 planes and kills everyone on board and then many more people in the area. I am a firm believer in "Eye for and eye" USA stands for Untied States Of America. and also for U Shouldn't Agrivate. To be perfectly honest the only muslims I dont like are the one who organized 9/11 those are the people who should die. Let me tell you something. This thread never should have started your pissing off alot of people and frankly I'm one of them. I honestly dont care if I'm banded for saying this but your a stupid piece of shit

Sincerely,
ONE VERY PROUD AMERICAN WITH RED WHITE AND BLUE BLOOD

U
S pell
A wfully

Your passionate post in defence of what you see as your country would probably carry more weight if it didn't look like a quixotic five year old had written it.

 

[luvgirlsfeet]

Big Jim..WHATEVER and the 5 year old remark is pointless b/c even a 5 year old has enough common sence to realize that Sept 11 was a tragic day for all of us and for those who think otherwise is either cold hearted or not a true American..

 

[BigJim]

Big Jim..WHATEVER and the 5 year old remark is pointless b/c even a 5 year old has enough common sence to realize that Sept 11 was a tragic day for all of us and for those who think otherwise is either cold hearted or not a true American..

I seriously begin to wonder if you have anything that might pass for interpretive intelligence.

What has being "American" got to do with it? I for one am not an American of any description, being English (although I do consider myself to be an ardent friend of America and a great admirer of many aspects of its culture); but I find it hard to believe that anyone born anywhere on earth could look at the death toll from 9/11 and not regard it as a world tragedy of stunning proportions. Indeed, everyone on this thread feels nothing but the greatest sympathy and grief for what happened, or so it seems to me. The main problem you seem to have is that you've become so enfatuated with the idea of being "a 'true' American" (whatever that is supposed to be), that you can't bear to listen to anything other than what reflects "America" in a positive and angellic light (usually that means whatever lying git presides over the Oval Office announces is the official line) without having your sense of identity challenged. That is a serious weakness because such blind patriotism leaves you open to be manipulated so easilly as to be laughable.

The "blessing", if it can possibly be described as that, is that mankind achieves its greatest goals in the face of tragedy and overwhelming adversity. For instance: in the wake of the Banda Aceh tsunami that caused imense damage and horrendous death and injury to any country that bordered the Indian Ocean, the Tamil Tiger freedom fighters/terrorists of Sri Lanka downed weapons and were helping villagers whose guts they hated a day previously; assisting them to carry food and the scanty medecine they had available to bad hit areas. The silver lining to the cloud of the Holocaust, is that we are very much more aware of the idiotic predjudice of racism in the world today. When people ask "How could there be a God if he allowed millions of innocent Jews to die in the gas chambers?" is answered possibly, by saying that sacrifice, horrendous though it is to contemplate, educated not millions, but billions of humans about what can happen when you let hatred and fear colour your perception of a people. If five million innocent Jews died to preserve the lives of fifty billion other people in some Third World War that was then prevented because we were more enlightened as a people, would the sacrifice have been worthwhile? It's a truly mind-scrambling thing to contemplate, I mean how can five million or more murderes ever seem "worth it" from our point of view, but is that how "God" would have planned it? If God or whatever could have deemed such a thing as being in the best interests of the human race's evolution, it makes 9/11 look tiny by comparison, as it does the London bus bombing in July. The world is perfect, in all its facets. Not perfect for us to look at perhaps, far from it. But from the point of view of human evolution it is totally 100% perfect. Everything around us reflects how we as a race are inside our hearts and it's only when we learn to recognise that and stop trying to change the reflection but the reflected, that we'll evolve.

 

[jim66e]

Actually as far as I know (and I do watch a hell of a lot of the History channel! and anything on tv has to be real! 😀), the crusades were started by the christians want of land, wealth and power. It had nothing to do with religion, that was only used as an excuse. Constantinople was one of the richest cities there has ever been and chrisiantity wanted it. In fact, in the end, it was only conquered when the Muslims allowed the Chrisitans to peacefully move in and the christians bled the place dry, abusing the trust that was put in them.

Ah, Constantinople was a Christian city untill long after the Crusades. It fell to Turkish Muslims in 1453. Yes it was a rich city, and yes the Christians had it. As to the real target of the Crusades, you mean Jeruselem, which is a holy city in all three major monotheistic religions. That was captured by the first crusade in 1099. It was lost sometime later, causeing subsiquent crusades to try to regain it.

The First three Crusades are considered the major crusades that were made up of multiple countries working towards the goal are are what most people think of when they think of the Crusades.

In 1204, Venentian manipulation caused the 4th Crusade to become involved with Byzantne politics and resulted in the solders sacking Constantinople.

Other minor crusades followed after although they acomplished little.

 

[Ignatz]

I seriously begin to wonder if you have anything that might pass for interpretive intelligence.

What has being "American" got to do with it? I for one am not an American of any description, being English (although I do consider myself to be an ardent friend of America and a great admirer of many aspects of its culture); but I find it hard to believe that anyone born anywhere on earth could look at the death toll from 9/11 and not regard it as a world tragedy of stunning proportions. Indeed, everyone on this thread feels nothing but the greatest sympathy and grief for what happened, or so it seems to me. The main problem you seem to have is that you've become so enfatuated with the idea of being "a 'true' American" (whatever that is supposed to be), that you can't bear to listen to anything other than what reflects "America" in a positive and angellic light (usually that means whatever lying git presides over the Oval Office announces is the official line) without having your sense of identity challenged. That is a serious weakness because such blind patriotism leaves you open to be manipulated so easilly as to be laughable.

The "blessing", if it can possibly be described as that, is that mankind achieves its greatest goals in the face of tragedy and overwhelming adversity. For instance: in the wake of the Banda Aceh tsunami that caused imense damage and horrendous death and injury to any country that bordered the Indian Ocean, the Tamil Tiger freedom fighters/terrorists of Sri Lanka downed weapons and were helping villagers whose guts they hated a day previously; assisting them to carry food and the scanty medecine they had available to bad hit areas. The silver lining to the cloud of the Holocaust, is that we are very much more aware of the idiotic predjudice of racism in the world today. When people ask "How could there be a God if he allowed millions of innocent Jews to die in the gas chambers?" is answered possibly, by saying that sacrifice, horrendous though it is to contemplate, educated not millions, but billions of humans about what can happen when you let hatred and fear colour your perception of a people. If five million innocent Jews died to preserve the lives of fifty billion other people in some Third World War that was then prevented because we were more enlightened as a people, would the sacrifice have been worthwhile? It's a truly mind-scrambling thing to contemplate, I mean how can five million or more murderes ever seem "worth it" from our point of view, but is that how "God" would have planned it? If God or whatever could have deemed such a thing as being in the best interests of the human race's evolution, it makes 9/11 look tiny by comparison, as it does the London bus bombing in July. The world is perfect, in all its facets. Not perfect for us to look at perhaps, far from it. But from the point of view of human evolution it is totally 100% perfect. Everything around us reflects how we as a race are inside our hearts and it's only when we learn to recognise that and stop trying to change the reflection but the reflected, that we'll evolve.

You misspelled
infatuated, angelic, immense, medicine and murders.

 

[BigJim]

You misspelled
infatuated, angelic, immense, medicine and murders.

Angelic, immense and murders were typing errors. That's my lookout for trying to type a long-ish post just before going out and hurrying it.

Infatuated was an irritating loss of concentration, which pisses me off all the more because I actually know that bugger.

Medicine you have me bang to rights on, particularly as I'm guilty of spelling it both ways on occasion.

So yep, I mispelled, but I did it with style. And I can proudly claim that I haven't yet mispelled a word of four letters length.


BigJim - Dyslexia lures K.O.

 

[JohnnyB]

Ah, Constantinople was a Christian city untill long after the Crusades. It fell to Turkish Muslims in 1453. Yes it was a rich city, and yes the Christians had it. As to the real target of the Crusades, you mean Jeruselem, which is a holy city in all three major monotheistic religions. That was captured by the first crusade in 1099. It was lost sometime later, causeing subsiquent crusades to try to regain it.

The First three Crusades are considered the major crusades that were made up of multiple countries working towards the goal are are what most people think of when they think of the Crusades.

In 1204, Venentian manipulation caused the 4th Crusade to become involved with Byzantne politics and resulted in the solders sacking Constantinople.

Other minor crusades followed after although they acomplished little.

I thought Constantinople was first attacked during the first crusade, but the attack was abandonned when it was unsuccesful, and the crusaders went on to Jeruselum? I honestly don't know, it's what I piece together from watching documentaries.

And, luvgirlsfeet, I don't know if I understand you, but are you for or against the argument, you don't seem to make it clear. Just asking.

 

[BigJim]

He's definately for argument. I think he enjoys it. 😀


BigJim - whizzed of his tits on peanut butter cups.

 

[jim66e]

I thought Constantinople was first attacked during the first crusade, but the attack was abandonned when it was unsuccesful, and the crusaders went on to Jeruselum? I honestly don't know, it's what I piece together from watching documentaries.

And, luvgirlsfeet, I don't know if I understand you, but are you for or against the argument, you don't seem to make it clear. Just asking.

Nope wasn't attacked till 1204, but at least you watch documentaries and seem to care about some history. Rock on with that, and keep it up!