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A little tidbit about guns and doctors

talons

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I found this information amusing but at the same time a bit suprising.:D


Subject: FW: Facts on Guns?




> S T A T I S T I C S...
>
> Number of physicians in the US: 700,000.
> Accidental deaths caused by Doctors per year: 120,000.
> Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171
> (U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services)
>
> Number of gun owners in the US: 80,000,000.
> Number of accidental gun deaths per year: 1,500.
> Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188
> Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous
> than gun owners.
>
> FACT: Not everyone has a gun, but everyone has at least one Doctor.
> Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban
> doctors before this gets out of hand.
>
> As a Public Health Measure I have withheld the statistics on lawyers
> for fear that the shock might cause people to seek medical aid.
 
If I had to choose, I'd rather be killed by a professional with a scalpel than by an amateur with a rifle.
 
i just think i'll skip dying all together. :D
 
evilqueen said:
If I had to choose, I'd rather be killed by a professional with a scalpel than by an amateur with a rifle.

I think I'd rather be killed by a professional with a feather. :D
 
The comparison between accidental gun and doctor deaths is fun, but basically meaningless. What the anti-self-defense forces don't understand is that people who regularly carry arms purely for defensive purposes only reach for said hardware *rarely*.

If legal gun carry permits were fairly available in my state (Calif), I'd have been packing since about late '96, when I had some death threats as a result of exposing some crooks who defrauded a friend of mine. In that period since, I've carried defensive-grade cutlery daily since, and had to reach for a good sized blade only once. Didn't have to use it - the four lunatics that had been trying to kill the guy I'd gotten out from under their boots decided not to try me. (The victim shook my hand in the DA's pre-trial conference where the assailants were being prosecuted.)

So that's maybe 1.5minutes worth of having my hand on a weapon "for real", in about six years.

That's why there are over 5.5million people legally armed in 34 states, and in each case no problems whatsoever result and street crime drops a bit as muggers decline to play "gun permit roulette". The total time you *really* use guns, even if you're a hunter, is extremely low and the admitted dangers are counterbalanced by the advantages in crime deterrant and general freedom.

It's also why the frequently made comparison between licensing guns and cars logically falls apart. (Then again, in Calif I *wish* gun carry permits were handled as fairly as driver's licenses, instead of being sold by top cops for campaign contributions, political favors, used to do "racial redlining" for self defense access, etc. :sowrong: )
 
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I've had a concealed carry permit for 25 years, never fired a shot in anger, and drew down only once - it prevented an armed robbery. Guy wasn't sure I had it (my hands were under a lunch counter) but he decided not to risk it and left. I've heard similar stories from others. These cases never make it into the statistical database, because they're never reported. We would all be safer if the crooks had to play carry-permit roulette in all jurisdictions, not just the least restrictive.

Strelnikov
 
...or, alternativly, the crooks would buy only rapid-fire weapons and hose down any patrons in the shop they're holding up before they even yell "THIS IS A HOLD-UP!" You know, just to be safe. So they don't have to play roulette. Or if they don't do that - Maybe they'll just get extra edgy and blast everyone in the shop who makes any suspicious move. Or appears to move. Or looks like he might.

Firearms are never going to increase personal safety on any scale. As long as they're freely available, it means that it's easy for anyone (including the crooks and irresponsible folks) to lay their hands on them. And, to be honest, concealed carrying is not going to do squat for you if you're being held up at gunpoint. The assailant already has his weapon cocket and leveled at you. Not even Pecos Bill could outdraw him. So the fact that you're packing will only serve to get you killed, should you foolishly try to draw - or if you take out your wallet, the crook sees your heat, and BOOM! He had an itchy trigger finger.

I know that the right to carry arms is part of your constitution, and that this is a major controversy, but from bad experience I have to say that even having a knife ready to draw when the opponent already has his is a bad idea. He saw mine, having his already out, and he reacted badly. I got off easy and it didn't leave any scars. If we'd both been carrying guns I'd probably be dead or crippled now. Good thing we don't hand out guns easily over here, or he'd sure as hell have had one.
 
i have a few thoughts on gun control. i have a permit to carry....i rarely do. I don't go too many places where i feel i would need to...but it's still nice to know i can. on another note....i used to work at a job where i got robbed. the guy put his gun in my back. company policy said give them what they want and cooperate..i agree with that. the guy was'nt wearing a mask..so thoughts of what was going to happen to me and the person with me went thru my head. i did manage to stay calm..i kept the person that was working with me calm, gave the guy what he wanted...(by the way he was'nt alone) and then he left...no one got hurt....the guy knew we were cooperating...and he stayed calm also...so in that instance not having a gun helped.
keep in mind...that was a controled instance inside a store at night in area that gets patroled....now what happens if your stuck in the middle of nowhere...no patrolling...and a guy robs you without fear of getting caught. and you can identify him..my guess is the situation would be different and your chances of getting shot have increased...all in all thats why sometimes having a gun helps...and it may not just be for your protection it may save other lives as well...whether its the person with you..or the person who faces the guy later after he already shot you....so there is good and bad...as for firearms not increasing personal safety...maybe yes..maybe no.....but never fool yourself..even if the every day joe can't get a firearm for protection..the criminal will always have a way to get a gun...remember they are a criminal..its what they do...
 
Marauder, you are overlooking the fact that criminals will get guns no matter if they are legal or illegal. I live in North Louisiana and there is no way anyone would attempt a break-in if they know someone is home. People hunt here so pretty much 3/4 of the people own guns. You would have to have a death wish to break into someone's home here, and that's why our crime rate is very low.

I agree with you that carrying a concealed weapon will do nothing for you if there is a gun leveled at your head. What it will do though is serve as a deterrent. People will think twice before they mug someone where gun concealment is legal.

I also believe that you are greatly underestimating criminals. I don't think they would be so stupid as to commit a capital offense right off the bat during a convenience store robbery.

The whole deal with gun control is simple: Require a certain amount of training before a gun license is given, and I believe this is the status quo in many places right now. No matter what we do people who want guns will get guns, and it is just that simple. The same thing with alcohol and underage drinkers, and drugs. If people want something today there is not much stopping them from getting it. So why punish those who want to act responsible with guns?
 
Sorry, doesn't make sense

For the sake of debate, I'd like to suggest that the logic of those statements is not sound. First, I question the source of the information. Who decided what to call "accidental" deaths. Second, how can we compare an "accidental" death by gunfire, to that of an "accidental" death caused by a medical professional. Third, those statements compare a large group of relatively unqualified people who are only "owners" to a highly skilled group of people who happen to be dealing with people who are already not in the best of health.

Steve :)
 
Marauder, you no doubt recall the news stories about European tourists being murdered at highway rest stops in Florida. There's a reason the thugs picked on them.

Florida does not require a permit to possess a handgun in your home. A few years ago, the Florida Legislature passed a law defining your car as an extension of your home. That pistol under the car seat is legal now, permit or no permit. It raised the odds that any locals out driving would be armed. The thugs knew this. They responded rationally: anyone driving a rental car probably isn't a local, is therefore not likely to be armed. They targeted their victims by looking for rented cars, which were obvious by the alpha sequence on the license plate.

Armed citizens deter crime - against themselves, at least. QED.

Strelnikov
 
One of the things Strelnikov missed about the Florida situation (tourists being attacked to such a degree the German embassy filed a trravel advisory circa 1992ish :eek: ) is that the problem was quickly solved.

Florida outlawed all renta-car insignia, and abolished the special license plates. They quite deliberately blended the unarmed tourists in with the armed population, and thereby protected such tourists very effectively :cool: .

Defensive firearms make it less "cost effective" to engage in street crime. By "cost", I'm talking both about the increased possible jail time if they were to do something so stupid as "spray the place" first, and the risk if they don't. The problem with a "spray and rob the bodies" gameplan is that once the shots are fired, the cops are COMING and to avoid murder charges, the goblins flee. Attempted robberies where the goblins actually fire never result in any financial profit, barring very unusual circumstances such as a large money transfer.

The US cities with the highest level of gun control also have the highest murder rates. Washington DC and Chicago being the worst examples. Mexico has gun control at a level to make the most hardened totalitarian get a woody, yet has a murder rate triple the US rate.

It's no surprise that Germany has both heavy gun control and a low murder rate - the mistake is in thinking there's a connection. In reality, Germany has a lower overall "culture of violence" stemming from historical and economic factors. Germany's murder rate has risen with the integration of East Germany, because years of brutalization under Stalinism had raised it's "cultural violence level" to a rate past West Germany. The Swiss have a lower murder rate than Germany today, yet the Swiss are armed at a rate that would make most Americans blush :cool:.

Again: it's about culture, not tools. The availability of self defense tools accomplishes two things: helps keep a lid on common street criminals, and gives would-be dictators pause for thought...something no German should dismiss out of hand!!!
 
The availability of self defense tools accomplishes two things: helps keep a lid on common street criminals, and gives would-be dictators pause for thought...something no German should dismiss out of hand!!!
The people most likely to vote for firearm-permits are exactly those that are most likely to become the next dictators. Liberals generally don't strive for fanatic nationalism (The best breeding ground for dictatorships), and they're the ones trying to get gun control up.

As for the deterring effect of concealed carry permits: There's no valid study to back those claims up. All studies that show firearms in a positive light have been conducted by the weapons lobby, or by institutes loyal to them.

But I'll have to be brutally honest now. If I lived in the U.S., I'd most likely be armed, too. I loved the feeling of firing bursts from my H&K G3 when I was in the army, and I was a crackshot. The smell of carbide, the punishing kickback, the thought of what the enemy would look like (had he not been a cardboard figure) after I hit him up the chest and three times in the head with a six-round 7.62 burst... Yee-haw. Made me feel like I had the ultimate power. Made me feel like a god, unlike the rest of my life, where I feel so utterly powerless. Too bad I can't buy a gun - I might be tempted to experience this feeling again...

After reading this last paragraph, it should be pretty clear that gun control can be a good thing. It keeps all but the most determined from owning a violent ego-booster.
 
Quoting Marauder:

"The people most likely to vote for firearm-permits are exactly those that are most likely to become the next dictators. Liberals generally don't strive for fanatic nationalism (The best breeding ground for dictatorships), and they're the ones trying to get gun control up."

HUH!?

Hitler pushed for strong gun control before beginning the worst of his BS. *Every* genocide attempt of the 20th century was preceeded by gun control laws, regardless of whether or not they were "left wing" totalitarians like Stalin or "right wing" such as Hitler - see also:

http://www.jpfo.org/L-laws.htm - overview of gun control laws preceding various genocides, starting with what the Turks did to the Armenians around the time of WW1.

http://www.jpfo.org/Survive.htm - interview with a holocaust survivor - check out HIS opinion!

The US committed two different racist atrocities in the 19th Century, involving slavery/racism and the Indian wars. In each case, specific arms restrictions were enacted against the minorities in question. See also historian Clayton Cramer's "The Racist Roots Of Gun Control": http://www.law.ukans.edu/jrnl/cramer.htm

Quoting again:

"As for the deterring effect of concealed carry permits: There's no valid study to back those claims up. All studies that show firearms in a positive light have been conducted by the weapons lobby, or by institutes loyal to them."

That's an outright lie. Professors Lott and Mustard of the University of Chicago school of law and economics studied the results of widespread carry before and after carry permit laws were enacted or reformed - on a county-by-county level no less. Lott held an "Olin Foundation Chair" that was totally unrelated to the Olin ammo and accessories corporation, yet various grabbers tried desperately to make the link. Truth is, they were both liberals and fully expected gun carry permits to turn out to be a disaster - I've heard Lott speak publicly on this subject.

The Lott/Mustard study has never been successfully attacked by the academic community. You can find it online here:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/JLS/lott.pdf (Adobe Acrobat Reader required, download for free at www.adobe.com if necessary)

In the areas with widespread carry, cops soon get used to the idea and support it. See also: http://www.wmsa.net/LAW_CCW.htm

Quoting again:

"Yee-haw. Made me feel like I had the ultimate power. Made me feel like a god, unlike the rest of my life, where I feel so utterly powerless. Too bad I can't buy a gun - I might be tempted to experience this feeling again...

After reading this last paragraph, it should be pretty clear that gun control can be a good thing. It keeps all but the most determined from owning a violent ego-booster."

And here we see the real problem - you're projecting your own warped mindset on others, which is *extremely* common among anti-gunners.

When I go to the range, it's to practice an intense form of discipline and concentration necessary to make accurate shots at long range. The ultimate goal is to be able to prevent anything non-consensual happening to ME, versus projecting my will onto anybody else.

Now, if you came to the US and landed in a state with widespread legal carry, the first thing you'd learn on sitting down for the class is the rules on use of deadly force in your state, and the horrendous results of failure to abide by those rules. That alone would tend to limit your "Ramboism", and in my opinion is the most beneficial part of the classes.

The other major mental quirk among the grabbers is to "get the threat confused". In other words, because NRA types have guns, and so do criminals, grabbers tend to think they're one and the same group. That's as stupid as thinking all BDSMers are kidnapping people in the streets and torturing them in their basements when in reality, the people engaging in that play are the ones finding an *outlet* for those urges, and are otherwise harmless.

How do I know such "target confusion" happens? Heh. Because I once slick-talked my way into the national headquarters of a national gun control group (the "Million Mom March") in order to inspect their tax filings (mandated public as a charity) and watched the utter freakout as they realized that their heavy-duty security hardware had failed to keep out two "gun nuts" :p:cool::p. If you're interested in THAT crazy story, it's here:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1953

This article resulted in the "Commie Mommies" getting booted from their free (obtained via fraud) office space less than a month later. The story made the front page of the SF Examiner, and got picked up by the Wall Street Journal's "Best Of The Web" news links page :D. The follow-up was even funnier:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2017

Jim
 
Marauder is right about liberals not striving for fanatical nationalism.They just want you to believe what they do or at least shut up....hate speech,harassment,and however many forms of discrimination are proof.This leads to as much of a dictatorship as anything else.
He also says that pro-carry permit studies are invalid,as they are conducted by pro-gun groups.Just who in the hell do you think carries out the anti-gun information work,the Boy Scouts?It's the anti-gun groups and their adherents.
Americans are often accused of misunderstanding the rest of the world.In Marauder's case,the opposite is obviously quite true.The American Rifleman magazine has monthly news reports about armed citizens defending themselves.All new ones,too..imagine that.I have had 2 incidents that never made the news,but my own firearm kept me from becoming a statistic.There are documentaries about crime and firearm ownership,and even a couple books,one done by a man who wanted to prove gun control worked.By the end of his work,he had changed his mind, and now supports gun rights.
Exactly how much sense does it make for a permit supporter to want to become a dictator after he has seen fit to allow the people to be armed? Another misunderstanding.
As far as gun control stopping all but the most determined from getting ego boosters,California and Los Angeles have heavy restrictions on even semiautomatics,but they still had to fight it out with a couple bank robbers a while back.Where was your asshole gun control while these two felons were carrying fully automatic AK-47s???Felons are not allowed to possess ANY gun,and you need special licenses from the gov't to possess any full auto.Another misunderstanding.
Maybe some here need an egobooster gun...they are PRECISELY the people that should stay the hell away from them...and the ones the rest of us should protect ourselves from.Another misunderstanding.
Historically, the countries that instituted gun control became the biggest subjugators of their people.We don't care to have that happen here.Independence is prized among Americans,and many times we tell the gov't to go shit in their hat.Another misunderstanding.
Before anyone starts the bull about "who really needs guns...kids get killed",far more kids drown in backyard pools than total people getting shot.Show me the need for backyard pools.Hell,plenty of people don't even buckle their kids up properly in cars,but will bitch about me owning a gun.Anyone who doesn't like me owning one,all I can say is shove it.
 
A Parable about Gun Control: The Sheep, the Wolves and the Porcupines

"Once upon a time there was a land where lived a large flock of sheep, a small den of wolves and a family of porcupines. It was the habit of the wolves, whenever they became hungry, to kill and eat a sheep. But they left the porcupines alone, not wanting to get their noses poked. The sheep, fearful of the wolves' sharp teeth, but holding a majority in the government of the land, passed a law outlawing everything sharp. The wolves just laughed, because they pretty much ignored all the laws anyway. But the porcupines, wanting to be law-abiding citizens, had to remove their sharp quills. This made the wolves very happy, because they could now eat the porcupines as well as the sheep."

I have to laugh at those who think the answer to crime is more Gun Control Laws. You're dealing with people who already make it the purpose of their business day to murder, rape, steal, distribute illegal drugs, etc, undaunted by the scores of laws prohibiting those activities. Do Gun Control advocates honestly think that criminals will say: "I now go forth to begin my daily regimen of looting and pillaging from honest citizens, but wait! What's this? There are new laws making possession of a gun illegal? How can I break the law to commit murder and Armed Robbery without a permit for my firearm in order? Curses, you Liberal lawmakers, you and Rosie O'Donnell have outsmarted me! I must must now abandon my life of crime and take up macrame instead."

Speaking of Rosie, I'm sure everyone's heard the story by now of how she ranted that guns are the Source of All Evil in the Universe and how we shouldn't be allowed to have them, but her bodyguard carries an unlicensed pistol. As with most of her ilk, she advocates laws that are meant for us "little people," not such enlightened and visionary souls as she. :rolleyes:

"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege."
Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it."
William Burroughs

"An unarmed man is incapable of functioning as a free citizen; his property, his body, his very life are at the command of others, since there is no risk inherent in committing depredations upon him."
Alexandre Dumas, pere

"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible."
Hubert H. Humphrey

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Thomas Jefferson

"I have seen districts which post 'Neighborhood Watch' signs on their lampposts, complete with a cartoon dog wearing a trench coat. Their criminal elements undoubtedly tremble upon seeing this courageous assertion of personal defense."
"Uncle Al" Schwartz


Note: I do not own or carry a gun myself, apart from battery operated phaser and blaster replicas that I wear when I dress up as a Klingon at Sci-Fi Conventions.
 
a complicated issue...

Basically, I think allowing relatively few citizens carrying concealed weapons is a much more palatable proposition than granting that priviledge to the masses in general--in this country at least.

People react to situations differently when they have guns versus when they don't. Armed, suddenly they have (potentially) the power of life or death...over someone that maybe antagonizing them--or who just did antagonize them. (Let's not even pretend to act like people by and large would suddenly begin to act more responsibly if they have this power. For a reference, see alcohol consumption/abuse in America--versus other cultures, btw. lol)

A few years back something happened that some might remember that illustrates this point. There's some video footage of a convenience store operator who was robbed by some teenage girls. One of the (unarmed) girls could be seen hitting the shopkeeper (a woman) repeatedly. Two seconds later, the shopkeeper (a woman) shot and killed her. Good, right? Well, what the video revealed showed was that the girl hit her twice and then turned quickly and started to leave. That's when the woman, "seeing her moment," pulled out the gun and fired. It all happened pretty fast, but there it was. The case went to trial, but the shopkeeper was acquitted on "self defense."

(As an aside, that ruling caused major controversy, particularly because of the races of the people involved, but that's another issue altogether.)

If you were to ask most people what the girl deserved for robbing and assaulting the store owner, I sincerely doubt it would have been death. (The courts certainly would not have given the death penalty for that.) Still, she (the shopkeeper) probably felt entirely justified. That's her right to feel that way. I'm sure it helps her to sleep better. Had she not been armed, though, her mind would have fixated on cooperating--not resisting, on defending--not attacking "in defense" (or was it anger? :confused: ). The robber would likely have been caught and imprisoned anyway, though (her face was clearly captured on camera.)
 
and what would have happened if the girl stopped at the door..turned around and killed the shopkeeper?

we could all state examples of why or why not having a gun is a bad thing. There are tons of published stories that could make either way look right.... i think of it as a choice...leveling the playing field...and like i said..even though i can carry a gun..i can't remember the last time i have or wanted to.... but think of this..a trained person can kill someone with their hands...or just about any object..so do you ban hands....keys...pocket knives? using any weapon should be the last resort...and yeah if the woman hadnt had a gun the robber would be alive and maybe she would have just left..but i'm sure their are many loved ones of people out their that were'nt so lucky, and they wish that their loved ones would of had protection at the time....but for whatever reason they either did'nt or were not allowed too...kind of late for them now..don't you think they should have had a choice?
 
Frink:

Let's address that robbery first, OK? I'll assume that you have the details correct, they're entirely believable.

You ask, "did the robber deserve to die?" - and I would submit that's the wrong question.

A better question would be "did the robberS (note the plural!) have the right to scare the bejeezus out of the clerk, to the point where the clerk reached for a gun?".

Of course not! Remember, the clerk knew there were two goblins, was under tremendous fear and stress NOT of her own making, and reacted in a fast-moving, fluid situation. For all she knew, the goblin immediately in front of her was retreating so that the other could clobber the victim with a blunt object. So the victim lashed out. This was the natural result of the robber's actions, and the decision not to prosecute the clerk was entirely correct even if everything was as you state.

Second, you mention how access to firearms should be "limited".

How do you propose to set those limits?

If the limits involve only those willing and able to pass a background check and training, then we agree. And in such states, typically between 2% and 5% of the adult population tends to go for the permit, although that number rises in urban areas. When Florida reformed their carry permit rules in '86, permit rates in Miami hit 15%.

But if the "limits" on who packs involve having government officials make judgement calls over who has "good cause to pack" and "good character", then I'm hear to tell you: that's an UNMITIGATED DISASTER.

Example: Oakland Calif has about 450,000 people in it. There is ONE permitholder. According to the PD Chief, that's the only permit he intends to ever issue, per a letter to a later applicant.

This one guy with the permit is the personal roommate, best friend, Zen guru and political consultant to Mayor Jerry Brown - dude name of Jaques Barzaghi.

It gets better. Jaques holds down a $114,000 a year job as Oakland's "director of arts". And earlier in 2001, the city had to pay out a $50,000 settlement to the first of his victims of sexual harassment :sowrong:. There are rumored to be many others, and the city attorney's office said that the city was "lucky" the settlement was as small as it was.

Yet over six months later, ol' Jaques was STILL the only Oakland gun owner considered to have the "good character" (as required under the law) to pack a gun.

Think I'm making this up?:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2918

Or hey, maybe outright police corruption is more your thing, paying for the permits with outright bribery, as observed in Contra Costa County:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/march/posse.asp

(As a bonus, cronies in Contra Costa got badges, uniforms, gold stars, an oath of office at a swearing-in ceremony in the Sheriff's county offices, all to go with that nice shiney gun and carry permit. And all this without them being cops of any sort, or the Board of Supervisors even knowing who they were! :sowrong: This is the real face of gun control, folks.)

Or how about general equal protection violations, and illegality six ways from Sunday, as seen in Marin county?:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2893

Upshot: set fair standards, force people to meet 'em, and administer it equally.
 
Marauder said:

As for the deterring effect of concealed carry permits: There's no valid study to back those claims up. All studies that show firearms in a positive light have been conducted by the weapons lobby, or by institutes loyal to them.

How can your views on this issue be taken seriously when you won't even accept facts. Although I do believe it is much simpler than facts. Seems more of a common since issue to me.
 
Some of you others have handled the factual aspects of the argument far better than I could. I'll add a little subjectivity.

Marauder, when I'm armed, I don't feel ten feet tall, bulletproof and drunk with power. In my younger days, I sometimes escalated confrontations when only fisticuffs were involved. NEVER when armed, because the consequences are so much more serious. As I said earlier, I've had a carry permit for 25 years and never fired a shot in anger.

What the handgun gives me is control of the situation. I can defend myself and others in my care. Or I can back off, and enforce it. Think of me as an old rattlesnake: I'm not looking for a fight, I'll avoid one if I can, but don't tread on me or it's your ass.

Strelnikov
 
A better question would be "did the robberS (note the plural!) have the right to scare the bejeezus out of the clerk, to the point where the clerk reached for a gun?".

Of course not! Remember, the clerk knew there were two goblins, was under tremendous fear and stress NOT of her own making, and reacted in a fast-moving, fluid situation. For all she knew, the goblin immediately in front of her was retreating so that the other could clobber the victim with a blunt object. So the victim lashed out. This was the natural result of the robber's actions, and the decision not to prosecute the clerk was entirely correct even if everything was as you state.

strtbottomjim:
Is fear or an uncertain outcome in a situation the ONLY criterion to use for unfurling your firearm?
If you're in bar fight, is that a good time?
How about if someone "gets in your face?"
How about if someone threatens or hurts someone you know and/or are close to?

Predicting your response in any one of these situations is as easy as predicting how you would respond if a car suddenly cuts you off when you're driving 60mph on an icy road. It has to HAPPEN for you to know. But it will happen FAST. So dump all the thoughts that begin with "I would just."

Basically, I personally only think it's justified to use lethal force if you honestly believe your life is on the line. That's not a person assaulting you (which would happen in any scuffle.) It's not a person robbing or otherwise inconveniencing you. I also think if you carry one you're inclined to use it/rely on it....even when you don't need to. (Yes, EVEN the calm, cool, background-checked, trained, intelligent ones.) Once it's out you'd better to be prepared to use it, else it's useless. Of course, after you use it, regardless of what happened, you'll suddenly remember feeling that "your life was in jeopardy." Anything else, and you couldn't sleep at night....unless you just enjoy shooting people...and going to prison for it...lol Again, in retrospect you'll always say something like: "For all I knew...." LOL And somehow your own anger, desire for revenge, etc. never becomes an issue, right?

As far as limits are concerned, I'm actually much less concerned. I believe there'll always be considerable limits on guns--in this country at least...lol. At least they'll always be reasonable to me. What they have now is fine. Your stats look ok to me. :) We "choke" over condom commercials, sex-ed in schools, legalized pot, nudity (ewwwww :p ), etc. Getting rid of gun control, with the specious intention of reducing crime or protect against tyranny? ROFL

btw...as another academic excercise...
I've been asaulted/mugged 3 times, in the past...all violently, once at gunpoint. If I had been armed, when should I have used a gun? Should I have tried to scare off the unarmed attackers (or shoot them like the clerk did, then claim self defense), or should I have saved it for the one who was already pointing his gun at me and/or my best friend?
 
Frink, at least you're starting to ask the right questions:

"Is fear or an uncertain outcome in a situation the ONLY criterion to use for unfurling your firearm?"

That is the EXACT criterion used in California law. The phrasing is similar to: "one may use deadly force in self defense if one is reasonably in fear of losing one's life, or suffering great bodily injury" - and the same standard applies when defending another, such as family (as in, are THEY in such danger?).

I know Texas uses the same standard. Most states use a variant of it, although in some cases there's an extra "duty to retreat where possible" in the law.

Let me show you how this works in real life:

In 1996, a gent name of Gordon Hale was driving a small truck in Texas. He was aproximately 55 years of age, normal build, and had just gotten a CCW permit under the new Texas law.

A younger guy in a larger truck clipped his side mirror, and then drove off. Hale followed to the next light, and began obviously writing the guy's plate number down. The younger guy got out of his vehicle and approached Hale, who rolled down his window thinking they were going to talk.

The younger guy attacked Hale with his fists, grabbing Hale's shirt and repeatedly punched Hale in the left side of his head, breaking his cheekbone and detaching one retina. The assailant then began dragging Hale right out of his vehicle through the open window.

Hale at this point decided he'd had enough, grabbed a Glock stored in the small compartment between the seats, and shot his assailant once in the chest, killing him.

A Texas Grand Jury decided Hale had done no wrong, and ruled that he didn't need to face trial. Their reasoning was that having suffered "great bodily injury" *already* (broken face and eye) he could reasonably expect to face more of the same, and therefore it was a clean shoot.

The Hale case illustrates that under rare circumstances, an armed individual can legally shoot someone who is unarmed. THIS IS RARE!

Now, as to your own robbery experiences:

The moment that robber made a gun visible along with his intent to rob, you were clear to shoot. Had you spotted the ambush ahead of time (and this gets into the area of trained situational awareness, a related topic) you would have been within your right to "grab your gun but not clear leather"...in other words, be in a position to draw faster if necessary.

Once you saw a threat to your life or health, either via multiple opponents or a weapon, you are clear to draw. If the act of drawing stops their attack and they begin a retreat, you just LOST the right to fire that you had the moment you drew.

Follow that? Whether they live or die is up to THEM, not you. You have a bit of a choice between "immediate fire" or "threaten for a sec, see if they back down". If the threat is a gun, immediate fire is called for but if it's club/knife, opinions vary. Part of this relates to the "Tueller Drill", which shows how the typical adult armed with a knife (already out) can cross 7 meters and stab something in 1.5seconds, which is also the typical time needed to draw and fire a gun. In other words, some idiot 50 meters away screaming at you and waving a knife isn't (yet) a threat, but one at 7 meters or less IS a threat equal in potential effect to a gun. This boundry is recognized by US courts.

Now, the fact is the simple motion of reaching for a weapon tends to cause goblins to flee, esp. in the US where defensive weapons carry is at least possible. We call these "chase-offs". I've done two, while armed with knives. I also once found that the reassurance of holding a good blade gave me enough confidence to shake a *dog's* confidence, and it retreated. Not all dangers are from humans.

In some cases, the "chase-off" happens before the goblin could have ANY clue that you're armed. What they're reacting to is that you didn't act like a victim - you got a determined look on your face, or your body posture otherwise indicated you were trouble. THAT happens a lot.

All of these are examples of "defensive gun use" that are common as hell, but usually never recorded by the cops or make their way into statistics. The grabbers refuse to believe they happen.

Morons :sowrong:
 
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