Abortion?

[BigJim]

Re: Re: Re: Re: if jim can come back, i can too

Sorry Jim, but if you can't quote it, it shouldn't be brought up, that's poor debating tactics.

I didn't bring it up. 😕



As Steve works in the medical field CC, it should'nt be too difficult to source that stuff. Bear in m,ind though that very few people have enough spare time on their hands to be able to source all their research like I do in Illuminati threads. The threads take 4-6 hours to type and twice that to research. Steve has more of a real life than me. LOL

 

[Cokecan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: if jim can come back, i can too

I didn't bring it up. 😕



As Steve works in the medical field CC, it should'nt be too difficult to source that stuff. Bear in m,ind though that very few people have enough spare time on their hands to be able to source all their research like I do in Illuminati threads. The threads take 4-6 hours to type and twice that to research. Steve has more of a real life than me. LOL

No, you're right, I apologize, that was not directed at you. It was directed at people's ability to debate in general.

In fact, here's a webpage with sources that refutes Steve's claim: http://www.brain-mind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html

That was just 30 seconds on Google. Mind you, I have no idea what the bias is of the site, if any (and generally there always is one), but I really take issue with people just pulling scientific statements like that out of nowhere and expecting it to be taken seriously without any backup.

 

[BigJim]

Okay, so I'm tired and fuzzy minded after a hard night-shift, but that appeared to confirm he neural development in un-born children when I read it. 😕

Sod it, I'm off to bed.

 

[Cokecan]

Okay, so I'm tired and fuzzy minded after a hard night-shift, but that appeared to confirm he neural development in un-born children when I read it. 😕

Sod it, I'm off to bed.

Not from my point of view - development yes, but not emotion or pain.

See, two people read the same article and get totally divergent opinions from it. That's another reason why this debate is so touchy. I think I'll leave it alone now.

 

[BellaRisa]

and bella since you believe in the reincarnation of the babys soul ,why not believe in the reincarnation of the soul of a criminal who has been sentanced to death?!?! if this mortal coil is just a stopping point on the journy of a soul, why can't you look at it the same way for foul fiendish murderers, as you do for inocent babies?

Um, I *do* look at it the same way. Never said I didn't. I believe that when the soul leaves one mortal shell it finds another, period. With murderers and the like, my hope is that in the next life nurture overcomes nature and this person's potential for evil is nullified by love and compassion. But that's probably a whole 'nother thread 🙂 .

why was it nessecary to jump on the religious beliefs of another member? this thread was going so well, then some of you just had to go, and show your smug superiority (or your mistaken belief that you are).

Having read through the posts, I saw no smugness or superiority, just angst and frustration. If the notion is raised of preserving life to please God, it must also be said that the Bible is chock-full of heinous mass-murders and violence commited by the Almighty Himself. No one cites those icky parts about burning and drowning when supporting sin-free living. No disrespect to Christians, but you just don't read the Bible for parenting tips, y'know? Check out the part about stoning your daughter to death for not being a virgin, not exactly Dr.Spock's style .

Bella

 

[Deleted member 2452]

jim i wasn't talking about you...

... in regards to the religious intolerance.
also i wasn't looking for you to disagree with me on the sensation level of a baby in vetro. i'm glad to see that you at least are well read enough to have seen the same things i have.
to mr. cokecan, prove to me you exist. see just cause i don't know you doesn't mean you don't exist. and just cause you haven't been exposed to the same writings i have, doesn't mean the things you haven't read aren't true! another way to see it; just cause you've never seen 10 million dollars in one big pile, doesn't mean 10 million dollars doesn't exist. truth be told when someone confronts me about my sources as you did, i get my back all up, and say screw him. but this is going so well, and nicely ,i'm just going to ignoe it.
steve

 

[Iggy pop]

Birth Control in the water. Birth Control in the water.

 

[BigJim]

With murderers and the like, my hope is that in the next life nurture overcomes nature and this person's potential for evil is nullified by love and compassion.

I believe there's the chance for that. But I also believe if someone leaves this life without atoning for, or coming to terms with their negative actions, something will be waiting next time round to beat a little humility into their aura; yanno? Next time you see someone suffering from a horrible injustice, perhaps it's just the karma catching up with their ass.

If the notion is raised of preserving life to please God, it must also be said that the Bible is chock-full of heinous mass-murders and violence commited by the Almighty Himself. No one cites those icky parts about burning and drowning when supporting sin-free living. No disrespect to Christians, but you just don't read the Bible for parenting tips, y'know?

Quite true. I'd also like to know how these people "just know" that it's an offence against God? When was the last time God issued a press-release saying he was against abortion? If you take the Christian/Muslim/Judaic conception of God as literally true, then the Dude is the wisest, most knowledgable and most infinitely clever being in existence. Now when whasisname in the Bible was forever damned for withdrawing and spilling his seed on the ground, the world's population was a fraction of what it is today. The human race was hardly fighting for it's very existence, but there was a hell of a lot more room. Quite the scenario for an omniprescent deity to get a wee bit narked if someone wasted some life-force, with so much area to spread to.
Today the world is chockfull of people. They're quite literally banging on the door of the third dimension to get in here. Isn't it just the tiniest bit possible for God/Allah/Yahweh to have gotten the opinion that quality was more important than quantity now? Isn't it even the remotest bit feasible to think He might prefer people to well and truly establish themselves in the world, before they bring others into it? Far-fetched? Quite possibly, but I'm playing Devil's advocate here, not postulating a seriously thought-out opinion. The point I am making is that there is no way in Creation people can know "that it against God's will" or "is an offence in the sight of God" because the Man hasn't said as much. What they actually mean when they say that, is "This is something I think would be against God's will, because I've put my own interpretation on a set of writings that are millenia old, contain nearly 50,000 admitted translation errors, and a lot of people on Earth don't think are true, or have a different spin on anyway."

If someone believes that, they're perfectly entitled to. There are people with belief systems that are a hell of a lot more destructive and negative than that. Someone living their life as a true Christian does a hell of a lot less harm than someone living their life as a druggie, wino, drunkard or politician. Good luck to you my religious friends, but please do not ever try to dictate to the rest of us that what we believe in is wrong and we should be forcibly stopped from doing it, because of how you believe the spiritual world is structured. No-one in this thread has said such yet, at least not outright. But I just know that some will be thinking it. There are some people who have a saviour "complex" who think that only by running the rest of the world's lives for them, can the world be happy. Those are the sort of people who launch lawsuits to put medical clinics who do abortions or sell the morning after pill out of business, or who publicly lobby to stop rape victims having a termination. They scream their self-righteousness through every portal the media opens to them, and forcibly kick open the ones they don't. They act as if their questionable beliefs are established fact. Okay, so do I, I'm aware. But unlike these people I don't try to run others' lives with my belief system.

 

[BigJim]

Re: jim i wasn't talking about you...

truth be told when someone confronts me about my sources as you did, i get my back all up, and say screw him. but this is going so well, and nicely ,i'm just going to ignoe it.
steve

Steve, you da man!

 

[Dragon321]

but then how are we to establish truth and knowledge without supporting sources? the man has a point, Jim. and reacting negatively on an emotional level appears suspicious. keep thy emotions within (and then go postal and wipe out a school.. its the humane thing to do)

i would like someone to challenge my assertion that population control is unneeded. BigJim, your thoughts on my apparent advocation of "selective breeding" are chilling, yet interesting. please expound. also, no more religious arguments. they are flawed, lack proof, and are mutually antagonistic. let us also not commit the fallacy of a relativistic perspective. there is an objective reality, although perception differs.🙄

and yes, i can support that statement. anyway, back to the argument: why is it that i support abortion and yet dislike corporal punishment? i surmise that it is due to the fact of an impersonal entity. although it vould rest just as heavily upon a desire to stop a process that is not merely brutal, but completely inneffectual. we need to effect social change: act in a medical manner, and destroy the source of the stagnation instead of dealing with its symptoms. lets start by taxing the RICH for a change, shall we?

 

[BigJim]

but then how are we to establish truth and knowledge without supporting sources? the man has a point, Jim. and reacting negatively on an emotional level appears suspicious. keep thy emotions within (and then go postal and wipe out a school.. its the humane thing to do)

Que? Neither Steve nor myself had immiediate access to the particular reports in question. It would'nt been plain daft to withold the opinion because of that. This isn't the senate, it's a discussion forum. Sooner or later one or other of us will come across it and post it here. then all can read and evaluate. What is negatively emotional about that?

i would like someone to challenge my assertion that population control is unneeded. BigJim, your thoughts on my apparent advocation of "selective breeding" are chilling, yet interesting. please expound. also, no more religious arguments. they are flawed, lack proof, and are mutually antagonistic.

Heh heh. Proof? If you take the guidelines laid down for "necessary proof" in a court of law, I laid down enough proof to satisfy ten judges, in my various threads on religion. No "smoking gun" yes, but enough circumstantial stuff to float anyone's boat. Maybe they don't believe in it, but that ain't a crime. Believe in what you will.

And I already laid down my reasoning for termination on the basis of disability being morally wrong. Disabled people can live perfectly fulfilling lives, if they can overcome their barriers. We all have barriers to jump, physical or mental disability is no different to being an emotional cripple. I think the idea of denying people that right to live "as they are" and for no other reason, is quite wrong.

From a personal, spiritual view too, I think it's bad. Prevents people from working off some bad karma. But that's just my POV and not something I'd enforce a law on.