About censorship, and maturity - not for everyone

[TMF Jeff]

OK,

I am seriously pissed off about the way a small number of people responded to this issue with the male/male tickling. I don't have anything to say about the actual posts being deleted or whatever because I haven't had time to talk to the people involved. Which is exactly my point.

What is wrong with some of the posters here that they can't wait 12 hours for people to wake up and wander to the TMF and see things happening. Dodger, to name names having already publically announced my feelings there, made three or four hostile posts after several responses by Morandilas (MTJ Pub) stating that we were going to get to this as soon as Myriads had time to look into it.

And really, do people need to be told that? Have we not demonstrated time and time again that we desire to encourage open debate? For christs sake, grow up! Myriads has allowed Psycho to accuse us of being sinners right here on our Forum, and I have allowed competing companies to freely use the TMF. We have nothing to prove to anyone.

And furthermore, what makes anyone think that there will be no censorship on the TMF? We tell you right up front that there will be censoring of material, to keep flames from happening and to keep things calm and orderly. Censorship is not the same thing as discrimination or suppression of ideas. To use two examples someone else gave me, Disney is not discriminating when they fail to show pornography in their cartoons. Likewise if I don't like liver, and I censor it from my diet, I am not being unfair to liver.

Our deeds and policies here speak for themselves and I'm not going to defend them. Dodger immediately rushed to AMT in a righteous frenzy and posted TWICE with subject lines of "Subject: the TMF is a hoax! KUJMAN demands Males tickle Males!" What he was trying to accomplish I don't know, but it wasn't the productive and positive resolution of the situation, which is the standard we are aiming for.

This situation will be resolved in good time. In the meantime, try not to take things so personally, and make a real effort to have some perspective about how important this really is that you can't wait 24 hours without freaking out. Really, what's the fucking rush here?

 

[Sandman]

Not sure what the situation is.. All I know is Kuj made a loong post and Dodger made a response. His post was deleted and the thread was locked for whatever reason. I hope you get it taken care of. I honestly don't see the rush either and why he was freaking out. Take your time and resolve the issue. I feel the thread should be opened back up if people can debate without the personal attacks, we had a good debate going in the thread. Really saw no reason for Dogers post to be deleted or the thread locked, especially after two loong replies I am sure a few people would like to respond too..

 

[red indian]

Non the wiser

I see my post on this thread has been deleted. If it has been deleted intentionally I am going to need a VERY good reason for this action. Not that I am angry about it but becuase I just do not follow the logic that would get such a post deleted given the nature of the thread which seems to be about supporting liberal attitudes and how we all should respect each others views and so on.As kujman says in part of his defence "I was merely poking a bit of fun" I reject in advance any notion that my post was liable to start a flame war, that just will not wash, so I look forward to the explanation.(The above post has been copied and pasted frome the locked thread which would not accept it)

 

[tklxprt]

i watched the thread with interest from the beginning. all i know now is that quite a few posts were deleted in that thread. i saw right away the volitale subject being discussed so i didn't even post on it. i do have my opinions on a lot of things people said, especially Kuj. i too, like red indian look forward to an explanation to why the thread was edited, then closed. i'm sure jeff and myriad and the others will handle it correctly though. they always do.

 

[Sandman]

I want to thank KUJMAN for the email he sent explaining things better..

 

[Tickler2001]

I'll wait

I'm not impressed with what happened. But I'll wait for some sort of clarification on the issue. Most of us have a pretty good idea of what happened here.

 

[red indian]

choking on my piece pipe!

I have just noticed that Tickler2001 and dodger are considered worthy of an individual thread to "explain" why their posts where deleted, I assume from this that my deleted post was too insignificant to warrant such attention in which case why was it deleted?

 

[MTJpub]

red indian

Hmmm... Perhaps it could be because I am the one who removed their posts and thought it would be nice to leave them an explanation.

I can't speak for the removal of your post because I was not responsible for it's removal.

People making assumptions and jumping to conclusions will throw this forum into Chaos.

You can't accuse someone of a crime and expect them to be arrested and sentenced without an investigation or trial . In addition to this the head honcho {Myriads} will be unreachable until late this evening. So the issue cannot be resolved until that time.

All we are trying to do is keep a lid on this until this time.

Thank you

Morandilas

 

[MN Tikl]

Anybody reviewing my bio will notice that my work consists of "dispute resolution." Translated, I handle dozens and dozens of legal disputes annually, and manage (if I can) to avert many, many more.

With that said, I'd like to throw my support behind the TMF moderators -- they are doing an admirable job of handling this situation.

Let's all give this some time to shake out. Take a breather, and think twice about posting something rash. Remember, we have a common goal of keeping this excellent forum functioning smoothly.

 

[Dave2112]

Well said

It seems that more and more lately there has been an influx of immature behavior. I mean, I posted a JOKE for crissakes and it turned into an issue. Does anyone even remember why we come here in the first place? To have fun, to get together with like-minded people?

I'm getting afraid to put anything else up. If a joke can turn into a religion debate, what's a sadistic tickling story going to turn into?

Let's just get back to the way things used to be and just let people have the opinions they're entitled to.

Having to be 18 to be in here applies mentally as well as physically.

 

[WallStreet]

GLAD I WASN'T INVOLVED

I intentionally stayed away from the original men/men post because I knew no matter how delicately I worded a post it would be construed as homophobicism. I must admit some ignorance on my part, that being when I first came to the Forum and I saw "Flame Free" I thought it meant nobody was gay. Afterwards I became very familiar with the true meaning of flaming after having been accused of it so many times.
I think the guys that posted negatively towards men/men may have gotten carried away, but we must look at their reason. It's safe to say that most of the men on the Forum are heterosexual. The guys who are gay have seemed to stay in the closet for the most part. I know Sandman is not gay, he is married with a newborn, but his post touched on a controversial subject. Why is it controversial? Because the reflex reaction of a hetero male when confronted with gayness is to not only resist it, but bash it. When you ask men if they are gay they don't say "no", they say "HELL NO!". These negative posters should be forgiven for their hasty remarks.
MTPJeff is correct when he says we should be able to wait a few days for posts and responses to be put into perspective. If your life centers around the Forum so much that you have to run to your computer to check for negative reactions to your posts I say this to you. Go outside for some fresh air, or catch a ballgame, or go to a strip club and tickle some strippers. Good clean fun.
I know the Forum has been sliced and diced into enough new sections lately, but I must make yet another reccomendation. It is not the TMF's fault that heterosexuals and homosexuals don't get along. That's just the way it is. Perhaps there should be sections pertaining to f/f m/f f/m & m/m. That way nobody will read something that will anger them. The title of Sandman's post was pretty self explanatory, I don't think anyone accidentally stumbled upon it. But when a guy is in the gym shower with the team after the game and he suddenly sees some of his teammates giving him strange looks his initial reaction will be very negative. I know it sounds unfair, but it's also true.
I don't wait with baseball bat in hand outside of gay bars to injure the exiting clientel, and I am not part of any nazi organization, but I openly admit that I have no interest in M/M tickling, and when I accidentally stumble upon their websites I close it out faster than greased lightning. That is my opinion. It would probably be very easy for someone that disagrees with my post to disect and repost one or two lines from it and make me look like a villian. That is exactly why this is a controversial subject and why I feel it should have it's own section.

 

[TMF Jeff]

Re: choking on my piece pipe!

I have just noticed that Tickler2001 and dodger are considered worthy of an individual thread to "explain" why their posts where deleted, I assume from this that my deleted post was too insignificant to warrant such attention in which case why was it deleted?

Was I somehow not clear when I said no-one knows what happened yet and asked everyone to be patient? I'm going to repeat myself, which I hate doing, and ask, what is the fucking hurry here? Why can't this wait until it's clear that we've reached some conclusions? You want me to wildly guess why your post was deleted? Because of sunspot activity! That is going to have to satisfy you for now.

 

[Dave2112]

Handing Jeff a new peace pipe to replace his understandably broken one.

 

[evilqueen]

Morandilas removed threads started by Tickler2001 and dodger after the thread red indian posted on was locked; that's why they received an explanation. Their threads questioned why the first thread had been locked, so Morandilas addressed their question.

Thank you Jeff for your handling of a situation that's disheartening in many ways. This site is unique thanks to the way its founders structured it, and that structure will keep it strong.

 

[Haltickling]

Yes, quinn, Jeff IS a leader here. Some people chose to ignore him, and some people think they should tell him how to behave. Both is inappropriate. Jeff and Myriads are the ones who take most of the fire behind the lines (= tons of e-mails). All he asks us is to have a little patience. Is that too much?

 

[TMF Jeff]

Re: Jeff, you must chill

With all due respect, bro, if you're asking for calm patience on the boards while things are resolved, diplay a little more yourself. You're a leader here, and a respected one, I gather, so give us some behavior worth modeling.

Certain fucking things you say might tend to get people a little fucking riled up, so until the smoke blows over, give peace a fucking chance...

I completely understand your point, but I am fresh out of patience. Right now the only thing I care about is getting this straightened out in the way that's best for the TMF, and if a few eggs get broken, then that's the way it's going to have to be.

 

[Featherdfingers]

What's wrong with a little healthy disagreement?

Doesn't really seem like there any serious issue at hand here until the "TMF" stepped in and started putting zippers on everyone's mouth. I think Dodger was less upset at Kujman than not being able to publicly respond to the remarks that Kujman made through this very public forum. Yes, the moderators *are* in charge here, and yes, they *do* have the right to censor things when they see fit. But I don't think that the knee-jerk reaction to shut down all operations once the possibility of "things getting out of hand" presents itself is the answer. You might as well let people say what they need to say (within reason, of course) because they're eventually going to find a way to say it, anyway. Restricting this need (contrary to popular opinion) only makes matters worse. I really appreciate what everyone has done to establish this forum as a daily place to go to voice, reach, and exchange opinions and points-of-view. But when it comes to enforcing daily activity, I just can't help but think that "less is more." People will be human, and as such there will always be polarity: attraction and repulsion, agreement and disagreement, harmony and conflict. These are givens, and as such, they become inconsequential. What is consequential is that people learn how to deal with these conflicts by themselves, without the intervention of some all-knowing "Big Brother" who comes to the rescue whenever trouble marches into paradise. In extreme cases, this intervention becomes an absolute essential fail-safe for exchanges that threaten extreme damage to be dealt. But I guess my main question, assuming this post isn't censored , is was this really a potentially harmful situation? It sure looked like a perfectly natural disagreement from where I was sitting in the cheap seats, granted the view wasn't as good as the mods'.

 

[TMF Jeff]

Re: What's wrong with a little healthy disagreement?

Doesn't really seem like there any serious issue at hand here until the "TMF" stepped in and started putting zippers on everyone's mouth. I think Dodger was less upset at Kujman than not being able to publicly respond to the remarks that Kujman made through this very public forum. Yes, the moderators *are* in charge here, and yes, they *do* have the right to censor things when they see fit. But I don't think that the knee-jerk reaction to shut down all operations once the possibility of "things getting out of hand" presents itself is the answer. You might as well let people say what they need to say (within reason, of course) because they're eventually going to find a way to say it, anyway. Restricting this need (contrary to popular opinion) only makes matters worse. I really appreciate what everyone has done to establish this forum as a daily place to go to voice, reach, and exchange opinions and points-of-view. But when it comes to enforcing daily activity, I just can't help but think that "less is more." People will be human, and as such there will always be polarity: attraction and repulsion, agreement and disagreement, harmony and conflict. These are givens, and as such, they become inconsequential. What is consequential is that people learn how to deal with these conflicts by themselves, without the intervention of some all-knowing "Big Brother" who comes to the rescue whenever trouble marches into paradise. In extreme cases, this intervention becomes an absolute essential fail-safe for exchanges that threaten extreme damage to be dealt. But I guess my main question, assuming this post isn't censored , is was this really a potentially harmful situation? It sure looked like a perfectly natural disagreement from where I was sitting in the cheap seats, granted the view wasn't as good as the mods'.

Yes, in fact this was a potentially harmful situation. What you didn't see, because Big Brother swooped in and started censoring people, was the spamming posts from person or persons who were freaking out and making wild accusations.

 

[Dave2112]

Let the Mods do their jobs, they know what they are doing. Without them, this place would be unrecognizable. They make decisions based on the overall good of the community, so you gotta trust them. I do.

 

[Uni]

Interesting

And somewhat disturbing as well, because I'm starting to see battlelines being drawn. Now it's not just a question of the topic (Which I will not go into) but the ripple effect that the topic has caused. My worry is the growing schism between the "commoners" and "the state". Are we as King Mob saying that we don't trust the ones in charge? And are they saying that they cannot trust us to be civil creatures?

Thought processes like this tend to lead to disasters. Now as we all know, empires rise... and then fall. For a variety of reasons. This problem that we are dealing with may very well be a baptism of fire, for good or ill. I'm hoping that things work out for the better, but one never knows. For now I hope that both sides think about what the other side has to deal with, and wait. Otherwise it's the beginning of the end.

 

[Dave2112]

Or we could all get along and have fun

 

[qjakal]

Figured that...

It certainly has to be something OTHER than the current posts on the thread...which aren't very violently ANYTHING...there's one NO! with a single exclamation point, and no profanity at all...so I assume the offending posts have been removed. Not sure I like locking a thread down either, but at times I realize it's the best method for cooling things off and letting tempers freeze a bit. Feeling a bit po'd myself by some of the comments from BOTH sides, and have been holding off e-mailing anyone until there is a posted resolution and statement of some sort. Not trying to say Mods shouldn't have opinions and post, but they need to acknowledge that their posts are going to be scrutinized more closely than others...may not be fair, but that's human nature. Accordingly, they need to weigh their responses a bit more carefully than the carefree masses, IMO. Anyway, good luck and looking forward to finishing the discussion when things get back to what passes for normal here...lol. Q

 

[MTJpub]

Featherdfingers

First I think you need to visit AMT to see just how upset Dodger is with Kujman. He considers all the moderators wimps because we did not act upon his wishes and castigate Kujman immediately before anyone has had a chance to investigate the situation and respond accordingly.

Furthermore none of the posts that I removed were deleted. It is against the policy of this forum for a moderator to delete a post. They are moved to the "Administrators Forum" per the rules set forth by this forum. Where they will be examined and the issue resolved. Dodger should have issued a complaint with Myriad's and waited at least 24 hours before he became unglued and started to spam this forum with his accusations. After his complaint was investigated and confirmed to be true we would have acted upon it. I even left Dodger a polite message with regards to these facts. However he chose to continue his public crusade and when that failed he went to the newsgroup AMT and spamed them with this nonsense. All of this before Myriads and the moderation team could investigate and respond to this matter.

Need I remind you that early on in the history of this forum a moderator was removed for similar actions. Why anyone would think this issue would go unresolved is beyond me.

This is a moderated forum. Because it is we enjoy a vast wealth of on topic material posted by people that don't have to fear that they will be publicly ridiculed by intentional flamers and people that like to lash out with only half a clue. When you register to become a member of this forum you accept the fact that is moderated. We don't promise anyone that we will moderate this forum to your personal satisfaction.

Even in this land of the FREE we have to abide by rules and due process. You would expect it if you were accused of a crime so why is it so hard to understand that until we have all the facts and present them to Myriads. We will not act.


Finally there is nothing wrong with "a little healthy disagreement" however I think it is obvious by now that this went way beyond a "a little healthy disagreement" or at least it should be.

Morandilas

 

[red indian]

Perry Mason

MTJ PUB......You make some good points and I take them on board but I would just point out that my post was in a way "accused of a crime,arrested" and deleted "without trial" in a way.

MTP JEFF......Blimey! steady on mate this is a forum you know,cant we have a chat while we wait for the tablets of stone from on high? You could be on to something with those sunspots though I cant think of any other reason why it was zapped, but you made a good sarcastic joke at my expense which I enjoyed, and thats all my deleted post was.


EVILQUEEN......Sorry love you are not quite with it on this one, my ORIGINAL post was removed, before the thread was locked, not the one you see near the top of this paticular thread, I tried to get that one on without realising the thread was blocked and transferred it here.

 

[Krokus]

Well

I never once looked at the m/m tickling thread, cause that stuffs just not for me. I did read however, that kujman insulted them and then locked the thread. I think that is very childish and a cheap shot. I think that insulting people just because of thier opinions is absurd. (deleted insult) I will accept all insults or whatever if I am wrong, because once again I have not checked the m/m tickling post, I am just going by what I have read.

Mod edit: I deleted a personal insult. Please wait till Myriads can solve the problem. Just a little patience.