Anti-Semitism in France. Opinions?

[Haltickling]

The respect is mutual, milagros. It's always a pleasure to exchange arguments and views with somebody who can articulate his opinions without attacking a person! 😎

 

[Deleted member 2452]

So, what does that tell us about Americans, when their President is Mr. Bush? 🙄

possible hal, that we americans like our president to be firm, and straight forward? i voted for pres. bush, and am proud to say so publicly. anyone who feels the need to knock him or me for my support of him, isn't worth my time!

hal i know i come off as a big french hater, but the truth is i don't hate them. i distrust them, and am sick of them, but to hate, that requires a great amount of emontional attachment, and i just don't care enough about them!

i am a student of the napolionic wars. i found the french to be the more sympathetic side, and the ones i admire more. after all it was napolion that stopped the inquisition.

i would also disagree that whole groups are not anti-jewish. look at how both france, and poland helped in rounding up their jewish countymen. hell, a higher % of polish jews died in ww2, than german jews! and let's not forget, hitler had a lot,and i mean a LOT of help!
but as i told you before, i don't hold todays german populous to blame. but don't try to b.s. me that antisemitism isn't rampent in europe today.

steve

 

[Deleted member 2452]

clarification of terms.

not to attack hal, but he has used a term in this thread, repeatedly, incorrectly. "racism". france is not a race, it is an ethnic country. judeism is not a race, it is a religion. do they still teach that all countries/groups are races in germany hal? i had thought that went out with all the other trapings of nazism.
and i repeat, this is not an attack on hal!

steve

 

[Haltickling]

Re: clarification of terms.

not to attack hal, but he has used a term in this thread, repeatedly, incorrectly. "racism". france is not a race, it is an ethnic country. judeism is not a race, it is a religion. do they still teach that all countries/groups are races in germany hal? i had thought that went out with all the other trapings of nazism.
and i repeat, this is not an attack on hal!
steve

You're certainly right if you take the literal meaning of race and racism.

To me, however, racism means all brands of strong contempt against certain groups which are somehow different, be it in skin-color, ethnic, religion, disabled etc. Quite a while ago, there was a song "Don't want no short people" which brought it to the point.

All these forms of crude, rude intolerance towards other groups have the same roots: Prejudice, ignorance, and conceit. These people forget that they also belong to a minority, if you view the world as a whole.

And no, they don't teach us about races here in Germany. Quite on contrary, I was brought up and educated to take a more global view, and therefore to despise racism and intolerance in all its forms. That's why I've fought against these evils as long as I can remember, and that's why I will always speak up quite emotionally whenever a discussion develops into a [insert group] bashing.

BTW: No matter how much you claim not to hate the French, the very fact that you speak of THE FRENCH (or THE POLISH, THE GERMANS) proves that you still have strong prejudices. Just food for thought, and no personal attack either... 😎

 

[Deleted member 2452]

and quite tasty food it was hal.

i agree i have strong feelings, and opinions, but it does not rise to the level of hate, when it comes to present day germany, poland, and france. i hate the germany, and poland of the 1930's, and 40's. the france of that period elicits feelings of disgust.

present day, i just find myself being confused, and at times disgusted, but hate? no. i don't care enough to hate.

steve

 

[Knox The Hatter]

Actually, Hal, you'd find no objections from me regarding the judging of this country by its politicians. What I said before actually describes the US better than most. Our politicians are, for the most part, bigoted, ignorant, venal, and hypocritical. Many Americans are as well...you could also throw in adjectives like 'immoral' as well.
In fact, you could put faces with the adjectives, if you are well informed, even if you do live across an ocean. It's a sad time, actually...the rest of the world is seeing a very bad side of America on an everyday basis, vis-a-vis Bush and Ashcroft and Rumsfeld, et al. The world got to see the best face of America with Kennedy, and Roosevelt...many around the world, during his time, had the greatest respect for Richard Nixon. It was inevitable that a Bush would come along, and what with the information superhighway and the state of the art media that we have nowadays, Bush the man and the personae is magnified many times into something larger than life itself. It disconcerts many people.
And, Hal, I may not have told you this, but I value your presence here very, very highly, and always pay special attention to your posts when they appear. Thanks.

 

[desdemona]

ok, just for a little cultural break...

Les Ricains (words by Michel Sardou)

Si les ricains n'étaient pas là
(If the Americans hadn't been there)
Vous seriez tous en Germanie
(You would all be in Germany)
A parler de je ne sais quoi
(Speaking of I know not what)
A saluer je ne sais qui
(Greeting I don't know who)

Bien sûr les années ont passé
(Of course, the years have passed)
Les fusils ont changé de mains
(Guns have changed hands)
Est-ce une raison pour oublier
(Is that a reason to forget)
Qu'un jour on en a eu besoin
(That one day we needed them)

Un gars venu de Géorgie
(A boy from Georgia)
Qui se foutait pas mal de toi
(Who didn't care much about you)
Est v'nu mourir en Normandie
(Came to die in Normandy)
Un matin où tu n'y étais pas
(One morning when you weren't there)

Bien sûr les années ont passé
(Of course the years have passed)
On est devenus des copains
(And we've become friends)
A l'amicale du fusillé
(Through the "Gun club")
On dit qu'ils sont tombés pour rien
(You could say they died for nothing)

Si les ricains n'étaient pas là
Vous seriez tous en Germanie
A parler de je ne sais quoi
A saluer je ne sais qui


Please excuse my mean translation. I've always found it a somewhat touching tribute about how the French conveniently forgot about the gratitude they felt on D-Day. But I've also witnessed the French celebrating and commemorating those who died in the battle to liberate them. I just don't think it's something any country appreciates having to be reminded of - a dark time when it needed help from foreigners to escape foreign domination. I also find it interesting that such pieds noirs authors like Albert Camus were active in the French resistance - even though the sentiment was and still is against them. I don't pretend to have the historical or political backgrounds of Milagros or Hal and I haven't the patriotic stance of steve, but I do think France as a country has a vast cultural diversity - much like that found in the U.S. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt?

 

[Deleted member 2452]

ok, just for a little cultural break...

Les Ricains (words by Michel Sardou)

Si les ricains n'étaient pas là
(If the Americans hadn't been there)
Vous seriez tous en Germanie
(You would all be in Germany)
A parler de je ne sais quoi
(Speaking of I know not what)
A saluer je ne sais qui
(Greeting I don't know who)

Bien sûr les années ont passé
(Of course, the years have passed)
Les fusils ont changé de mains
(Guns have changed hands)
Est-ce une raison pour oublier
(Is that a reason to forget)
Qu'un jour on en a eu besoin
(That one day we needed them)

Un gars venu de Géorgie
(A boy from Georgia)
Qui se foutait pas mal de toi
(Who didn't care much about you)
Est v'nu mourir en Normandie
(Came to die in Normandy)
Un matin où tu n'y étais pas
(One morning when you weren't there)

Bien sûr les années ont passé
(Of course the years have passed)
On est devenus des copains
(And we've become friends)
A l'amicale du fusillé
(Through the "Gun club")
On dit qu'ils sont tombés pour rien
(You could say they died for nothing)

Si les ricains n'étaient pas là
Vous seriez tous en Germanie
A parler de je ne sais quoi
A saluer je ne sais qui


Please excuse my mean translation. I've always found it a somewhat touching tribute about how the French conveniently forgot about the gratitude they felt on D-Day. But I've also witnessed the French celebrating and commemorating those who died in the battle to liberate them. I just don't think it's something any country appreciates having to be reminded of - a dark time when it needed help from foreigners to escape foreign domination. I also find it interesting that such pieds noirs authors like Albert Camus were active in the French resistance - even though the sentiment was and still is against them. I don't pretend to have the historical or political backgrounds of Milagros or Hal and I haven't the patriotic stance of steve, but I do think France as a country has a vast cultural diversity - much like that found in the U.S. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt?

thanks for the mention des. but i think i can discuss history with the best of them. i minored in it.
anyway, another way to look at it is; possibly because the author of the piece you posted actually served, he is more disposed to remember those that sacrificed, and fought for him, and his country?! it's those who've never got their ass in the grass, that don't appriciate the efforts of others, and don't want to be reminded of those efforts.
nice post des.

steve

 

[Haltickling]

Que belle chanson, desdemona! Merci beaucoup! 🙂

 

[desdemona]

Thanks steve, Hal. And Steve, I never meant to imply that you aren't up on your history. It's that I associate you more with political sparring/political science information. And Hal, maybe we use the article THE because in most European languages, everything has to have a masculine/feminine/neutral gender? Just a thought... 😉

 

[Moses25]

The respect is mutual, milagros. It's always a pleasure to exchange arguments and views with somebody who can articulate his opinions without attacking a person! 😎

You're a complete and utter so-and-so, Hal.

Love, Moses. 😛

P.M.S. Cheers.😀

 

[BigJim]

Is this another French-bashing thread or what? THE FRENCH don't exist as an entity. Just as Americans shouldn't be judged by Bush, Germans not by Hitler, Cambodians not by Pol Pot, you shouldn't judge the French by any single individual, let alone politicians!

Judging the French by their politicians would give everyone an impossibly low opinion of them. Take Francois Mitterand for instance. During World War 2 he was so far up the occupiers arses, he could have brushed their teeth from the inside. How the hell does a nazi collaborator end up being the national leader?

On a slightly different note, I have to agree with Hal about the use of the term "The French". When anyone says "The *anything*" what they define by it, is usually the definition applied by the dominant media of their country or region. If you use the term "The French" to mean French citizens and nationals living in the country, or working for it or it's overseas dependencies, precious few of them would be anti-semitic/Israeli. I myself am MASSIVELY critical of some of the actions taken by Israel, not the least of which was grand theft on an international scale when they nicked the land that now forms the nation from the Arab people living there. The Jewish people who call Israel "home" have genetic heriatage that goes back much closer to southern Russia and the Caucasus region than it does to the area now called Israel. You rarely hear anything that directly critiscises this in America though, because the American establishment shits itself a row of council houses at the thought of the information about the billions of dolalrs of illegal aid and nuclear technology that they've given to them over the years. On top of that you have organisations like the ADL that have lied, slandered and conducted completely unwarranted villification against anyone who's spoken out against Israel's actions. Totally innocent people have been accused of the most dreaded label in America, anti-semitism; when they've done nothing more than critiscise Israel for unloading a crateful of FFAR pods into the Palestinian equivalent of a council estate. (Crappy housing in Britain, owned by local councils and being of low rent.) Exactly the same slander has been thrown at people who have critiscised families like the house of Rothschild, for finacial crimes. This family's English branch once met with the (then) South African leader, De-Clerk, and offered to invest money stored in Swiss banks that had been stolen from Jewish victims in the holocaust, if they could agree and intrest rate. Now that is as heinous a piece of exploitation as I can think of! Yet to critiscise the Rothschilds is to invite accusations of "anti-semitiscm" from the ADL. The ADL being based largely in America, has a very loud media voice. Translation: they can talk total shit and millions of people will accept it as gospel truth. It's in ways like this that people can be totally side-tracked into lumping everyone in a manufactured "group" all into the same basket. The ADL can use it to give Israel all the excuses the need to do whatever they want. Anti-French (or indeed, even anti-German when it comes to nazi-ism) sentiment works the same way. People get tarred with the same brush, and what colour tar it is depends mostly on where you live. It's sad. 🙁

(And I'm neutral, because I've got Jewish heriatage myself. Just check the surname on my e-mail addy.)


The French nation has rarely aquitted itself nobly, at least, not where we've been concerned. They also managed to elect the biggest Quisling bastard of them all to high office. But it's just like Britain in a way; over here we're the mates of America and American investment is 99% of the fuel in British industry. We're your mates and hopefully, always will be. But there's a sizeable portion of people here who vehemently disagree with the way the recent war in Iraq was conducted. (Me included.) Very few members of said movement have any like or sympathy for an arse-wipe like Saddam, they just have an aversion to politicians blatantly lying to them over the reasons their soldiers have gone into action. But how many American news shows featured anything more (at the most) than a very quick side-note of the demonstrations that were held here against George W. Bush? Just the same in France, our history classes and our news paints it as a nation of cowards, back-stabbers and xenophobics. But to actually believe that 100% does all decent French people a huge injustice.

 

[BigJim]

In the 2000 election, only 105,405,100 voted -

50,456,002 voted for Bush

50,999,897 voted for Gore

It was one of the closest elections in the history of the United States.

Well you can't get much closer than being declared the winner when you actually lost by over half a million votes, can you? 🙄