Are safewords really necessary?

[BellaRisa]

Siamese, thank you, I tried to think my post out carefully, and, I am glad you agree with what I said. Also, after thinking about this subject further, another important issue came to mind.
To me, this whole thread makes even more sense, for this reason: Needing to use a safeword for tickling to stop, is, to me, locking oneself into a rule, that doesnt always apply. For example, in tickling itself, depending on mood, I am certain that some nights where a ler or lee would be able to tickle, or be tickled for two hours, and other nights tire in fifteen minutes. The mandatory use of a safeword is, to me, saying:" Every single time, until you, the lee, scream this safeword, you are going to be tickled unmercifully, even if you cant breathe". Engaging in tickling the other way, with watching for, and using physical signs, is, in my opinion, protection for not only the lee's emotional and physical safety, but also for the ler as well, where, after the session is over, the lee would feel their rights were respected, and that the ler saw the signs to stop, before going over the line. I think it can tend to avoid angry, and feelings of perhaps going too far, and feelings of violation, from the lee toward the ler. Respecting rights in a situation like this is paramount, especially when someone willingly submits themself, to be tickled unmercifully by someone, an action that many who arent into this, can well despise, and feel is torture.
So, for these reasons, looking for physical signs, and not using safewords as the sole criteria, to stop, makes perfect sense to me.

Mitch

There seems to be an either/or theory here, wherein those who use safewords don't also pay proper attention to the physical and verbal reactions of the 'lee. I've never known this to be the case; a safeword is just another means of communication, not the sole system in place. A 'ler who's 'lee has a safeword is still going to stop when she's blue and choking whether she used her word or not, assuming he's intelligent and trustworthy enough to play in the first place. And if he isn't and she still let him tie her, that's a different conversation .

There have been nights when it was pitch-black in the bedroom and my 'ler wanted to play before sleep, harder than I could take at that time. Kinda hard to watch for signals under those circumstances and those blankets Saying 'yellow' to slow him down a bit wasn't a bad thing. And 'please slow down' would have worked, but I prefer one sweet little word, it felt better .

Frankly, I like a safeword because even someone who knows me inside and out might not know true and immediate distress on my part, physical or emotional; no matter what you do to me I tend to remain brown, no blue tinge to warn of a lack of oxygen. And I prefer playing face-down with a blindfold on, and my eyes water when I play intensely; there's a good chance that my face isn't going to reveal what's really going on with me if we're playing hard . I'm not saying that my very familiar 'lers won't have a good idea, they do. But being able to say something other than 'stop' can still be a very good thing.

Bella

 

[Mimi]

I think it simply comes down to who you are playing with and what the parties involved agree on before play begins. If you fully trust your ler and don't feel the need to use one then one should not be necessary. If you are uncomfortable playing without one and want one established as a safety net, then the ler should respect that and should respond approriately during play if you happen to use it. People who prefer to play without safewords can always limit themselves to partners on the same page, and vice versa for those who prefer playing with them.

In the end though the lee's safety, sanity, and overall well-being should be the top priority and concern of any ler who takes on that level of control over another individual. Dismissing safewords as unecessary and abused in all cases is simply not practical. They should always be encouraged when you're first discovering your boundries in this fetish, and when you are playing with anyone you are not in a trusting and safe relationship with (as play partners or more). There is no "one size fits all" answer to the question originally posed.

 

[Redmage]

So, first of all, her safeword didn't do her much good, and second of all, if she hadn't had this magic word that she needed to remember, she might have had a better chance at communicating what she truly needed.

Any system can fail. I can't see any reason, though, to suppose that if she couldn't say one word she would have better luck with several. I think you might be getting a bit too militant on that point.

 

[TMF Jeff]

Any system can fail. I can't see any reason, though, to suppose that if she couldn't say one word she would have better luck with several. I think you might be getting a bit too militant on that point.

I don't think I'm being militant, but I guess I wouldn't.

As for the girl, she was talking freely, it wasn't that she couldn't get the word out, it was that she couldn't remember what the word was.

 

[BellaRisa]

Any system can fail. I can't see any reason, though, to suppose that if she couldn't say one word she would have better luck with several.

One might also conclude that since the young lady in Jeff's story was still laughing and was just fine afterwards, she was never truly past her limits and simply got through a brief moment of panic. Chances are that had she truly needed them to stop she would have communicated such with one safeword, such as STOP, or another.

Bella

 

[dvnc]

Just steppin' into this to add $0.02 to the mix.

Context.

If I gotta use it, I use it. If I don't gotta, I won't. I prefer the scenes where I don't gotta use one.

If I'm playin' wit' Bella, I've no worries. I'll read the lady just fine.

If I'm hostin' an event, EVERYONE gets the safeword talk, due to that whole "you lose your house" lawsuit possibility. Civil suits in the states are very open to torment, even VOLUNTARY torment. Within MARRIAGE even.

If you don't KNOW you can read the 'lee, even WITH a safeword, they still gotta spit it out, and OUR kink will make that tough. Means that a safeword ain't safety enough for some situations. If a top don't read their bottom correctly, that's one 'lee that will be damaged goods afterward.

Could be Fatal Attraction damaged, and do ya want Rabbit Stew surprises?

Could be emotionally wrecked afterward. Even if you're a heartless S.O.B. you gotta pray no one HERE finds out, or you're branded. Also, there's the whole friends-and-family potential injuries.

Context. If you know who you're playing with, AND you know that you don't know aspects about them, AND you know that THEY don't know aspects about themselves, then you've a chance at a fair decision.

Oh, and if they over-use it, why are you playing with them?

 

[drew70]

Man, I love me a good DVNC post. You're writing style is really entertaining.

LOL. I told him years ago, his posts are like Ben Grimm dialogue.

 

[Bagelfather]

Default safewords

very cute Ann 🙂

On a more serious note, a friend of mine recently told me a story that relates to this. He and his friend had tied up his girlfriend and were tickling her pretty intensely. Soon she was laughing so hard that her wits abandoned her, and she forgot what the safeword was. So for a couple of minutes, she was being tickled past her endurance and couldn't find the right words to make the play end.

So, first of all, her safeword didn't do her much good, and second of all, if she hadn't had this magic word that she needed to remember, she might have had a better chance at communicating what she truly needed.

By the way, she was just fine afterwords, safeword or no.

This is why "Red" is universal and to make sure you pick a safeword that is easy to say. The fact that she wasn't able to say her safeword does not mean that they were useless, it means the person tickling her was not paying attention to her partners needs and should have read her a lot better and slowed down or even asked if everything was okay. Total disregard for the lee's needs is a bad thing.

I do not think using the argument that it did not work for one person means it is a complete and utter failure.

 

[chicago]

The person that started this thread is a smart guy that has been tickling women for years. I can say I would, and have, trusted him to tickle me without a safeword.

That being said, I can't really think of anyone else that I would let tickle me without one (assuming I'm tied up, if I'm not, I don't need one.)

However, I think this thread might be more bad than good. Seeing as how it's very popular, it's probably just encouraged a bunch of less-skilled lers to skip using safewords.

Not good.

 

[dvnc]

MTPJeff uses safewords, else he wouldn't have mentioned where they're not useful in context of the situation.

Someone who HASN'T tickled many different women for a CAREER may be dumb enough to assume they can guess. Some people are like that. That's why there are courts of law.

Jeff, are you saying to the masses that you think that folks new to the play shouldn't use these?

Further, are you also saying you think that EVERYONE can read their 'lee?

Given that there's laws that differ state-to-state about bondage, a little thought's needed here. Y'can't just leap to it, and 'lee be damned 'cause she ASKED to be tied. Law's on her side, then. Apologies to those folks who're offended that my example is M/f. Substitute as ya see fit.

Mairead, Drew - thank ya kindly. Most amused by the Grimm reference again, too, Drew. Was my handle a million years ago, even.

 

[dvnc]

D'oh! I blame brain damage, darlin'. Apologies. Owe ya a coke.

I agree wit' Drew sometimes. It happens. 😉 He just likes a strong debate, that's all.

 

[dvnc]

It IS a confusing discussion.

It's personal, though.

For you, ask yourself if you WANT to give up ALL control of your play as a 'lee, or take COMPLETE control of your 'lee as a 'ler. If you want this, then safewords are something you don't want. They're a safety. The big net under the high wire of our play.

If one is just starting (the first 5-10 years of play, for instance) and doesn't have references from several play partners about their ability to read their play partner for such safety, then a safeword's essential. Not only do you save potential harm to someone, but potential legal difficulties thereafter.

Since this discussion came up, I've had several private exchanges. Got to hear some complimentary commentary indicating I don't suck as a play partner. That folks trust me to know when they're about to pass the edge. EVERY single person mentioned knowing they could yell "safeword" or "red" and know I'd stop. Mind you, I'd *stop*. You're untied, we're done playing. Safeword ain't a breather. It's a finish. It says you can't handle this right now for whatever reason, and that's a damned fine time to make tea. Sip quietly and reflect on what was the problem, and how it could be prevented in future play.

I *still* prefer to mention that such basic safety is available. With skilled players, I'll tease a bit. "Use a safework if you're feeling weak..."

With new folks, that's just mean, stupid and unnecessary. New folks need the chance to learn what works INDIVIDUALLY. Some folks WANT to be tortured mercilessly. Some want sensual play. Some want a mix up of each, and a dash of spanking, and some dominant headspace laid on 'em.

Now I'm distracted... damn... Is it hot in here?

Point is, again, context.

With YOU, when YOU play, what do YOU want. Who gives a hairy f*** what people here decide. What do YOU want? What's okay, but doesn't float your boat? What's off limits? I know a 'lee that can't have her bellybutton touched. Blows the scene. Some blockhead will ignore this, and she's fun to play with. They lose. You decide what's off limits. Whatever you leave open is available to your 'ler, your top, your dom. As said 'ler, you HAVE to read that negotiation for play, and know what to interpret, and know how to read that person's responses, and how to figure out what they DIDN'T say.

Sometimes you get a safeword called that totally surprises you. So be it. Safety first. The 'lee must survive to laugh another day, y'know?

Think in terms of YOU. Find others you can mail with. Meet folks at gatherings, and talk about this stuff. We're the crew that shares aspects of your interest. Bounce ideas off the open minds. It's free, y'know? It's why our mail addresses are available in our user info.

 

[TickledToDeath]

D'oh! I blame brain damage, darlin'. Apologies. Owe ya a coke.

I agree wit' Drew sometimes. It happens. 😉 He just likes a strong debate, that's all.

OOOO OOOO OOOOO Did someone day debate?!! 🙂 🙄
Hey brother! Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooog time, yes?
Hope all is well! Best to ya my friend.

TTD

 

[dvnc]

LOL! Salutations, TTD. I guess I haven't been participatin' much outta my gatherings-n-personals ghetto. It ain't that I don't love ya, brer. Just busy bein' busy, y'know? 😉

 

[TMF Jeff]

With YOU, when YOU play, what do YOU want. Who gives a hairy f*** what people here decide. What do YOU want?

Thanks Dave! THIS is exactly what I've been saying. If safewords are right for YOU, then use them. But THINK about the subject before you decide, don't just take it for granted.

 

[dvnc]

Yer welcome. It's tough gettin' folks to think when somethin' gets 'em tingly, y'know?

 

[GirlWhoLikes2Laugh]

I actually think safewords are necessary for some people. I mean if I am being tickled about as long as I can hold out, then I think that I should be able to say my safeword. I think in a way it's respectful to the lee.


"Opinions are like buts, everyone has one." Dr. Phil

 

[LD_Tickler]

As far as I'm concerned, when some one else's suffering is at stake, you should never believe you know better than him/her, regardless of how high your opinion of your own judgement is.

 

[Ayla ny]

I prefer not to use one and haven't ever used one with my boyfriend. He is more likely to tell me that I need a break than I am to use a safe word, anyhow. 🙂

 

[Redmage]

You know, I think the whole question behind this thread is fundamentally flawed, because the common-sense response is "necessary for whom?" Obviously, they aren't necessary for Jeff and some others. But just as obviously there are many people for whom they are necessary, at least in some situations. At the end of the day, safewords are necessary for anyone who needs them to feel safe. And that seems like the most that you can really say about it.

 

[BellaRisa]

You know, I think the whole question behind this thread is fundamentally flawed, because the common-sense response is "necessary for whom?" Obviously, they aren't necessary for Jeff and some others. But just as obviously there are many people for whom they are necessary, at least in some situations. At the end of the day, safewords are necessary for anyone who needs them to feel safe. And that seems like the most that you can really say about it.

You're right 'mage, but I'll do you one further: as a true switch quite familiar with both sides of the blindfold, let me tell you that no one here, no matter how long they've been playing and with how many people they've played, can read minds. Expertise be damned, empathy only goes so far. It's nice that you're good at 'reading' people; but at the end of the day, you are not me. You're not inside my head and you need to listen to me when I show you, in whatever way works best, that I need you to stop. And I believe that every 'ler who has posted here would stop if the 'lee needed them to and communicated that, unless they're far too arrogant to be a safe player-which I don't believe is true of anyone who's posted. And to me there's no real difference between that means of communication and a safeword. If the 'lee can say or do it to stop the play, it's a safeword. Period. As for those who say they don't have one, have never needed one, yadda dadda...think about what you would do or say if your 'ler was facing your feet and you suddenly needed them to stop, and you couldn't wait for them to turn and check your face. What would you do or say? How would you let them know? Now tell me that you don't have a safeword.

And one more thing: if you were taken 'past your limit' and you were just fine and happy afterwards, guess what? That wasn't really your limit.

Bella

 

[shadow365]

Here is my thought on the whole matter. Now, keep in mind that I REALLY didn't feel like reading 11 pages worth of posts, so this might be a repeat of what someone else said.

I feel that safeowrds are necessary because of their original intent. It is too easy to say "stop" or "I can't take it" when you are being tickled. However, if you actually can't take what is going on, it is good to have a "killswitch" so to speak. That is why safewords are things like colors and not random words that are blurted out in the heat of a tickling session. The safety, comfort, and enjoyment of my lee is at the top of the list for me.

 

[Phineas]

Very interesting thread. Mostly because while the questions Jeff's raising are valid, and make for some good discussion, his bringing them up as a reaction to something that happened over the course of his work is a bit... misguided? Off-context? I'm not sure.

Anyway. My next thoughts are specifically directed to Jeff.

It was originally mentioned that these models did not halt the shoot or use a safeword if one was in place, ended the shoot "smiling and claiming they had fun", but then later confided in someone else that the shoot freaked them out - and this whole sitch is what prompted you to wonder if safewords were important.

Now, I too, have worked with models - some professional, some not so. I have worked with far less than you, but I'm kind of surprised that given your extensive experience with this sort of thing that you haven't run into flaky behavior like this before.

Think about it - during the shoot, she's trying to be professional and give you the footage you want. You're her employer at that moment, and if she wants to come out of the experience with a paycheck and a good recommendation, she's not going to make filming difficult... most likely she'll just suck it up, do the shoot, and then not work with you again.

Without trying to generalize and sound sexist, here, I have met a lot of women, models and otherwise, who are so passive that they simply won't risk the confrontation of telling you that you squicked 'em.

I've also met a few that don't behave responsibly. It's not clear from your initial observations whether or not you use safewords during a shoot - but if you do, and the model does not use them, then she has no one to blame but herself if you go beyond her limits... because you established the signals/safeguards and she did not abide by them. You can't help it if she gives no indication of discomfort so that you may correct your behavior.

Although it's ironic, in a way - of COURSE they'd end the shoot smiling. You just tickled them. Hehe. Is little joke.

Are safewords truly necessary? Depends on the situation and the people involved. Where models, money, and possible legal problems (along with a damaged professional reputation), yes. But they only work the way they should if everyone is on the same page as to their importance.

 

[Goodieluver]

This is simple, depends on who you are

If you want to be tourtured out of your mind by someone from which you have no control of stopping, then you have no safeword

If you dont want to give up that total freedom, then you have a safeword

When you go to most dungeons, there is a "limit" as to what they do or dont do and they can get pretty sextreme with what they do(not just referin to ticklin)

So are safewords necessary? To those who need them, yes

Those who dont need\want them, more fun to you

Heh, phineas' comment on money reminds me of the "infamous" and "first" noncon video from ticklingparadise, i remember laughin my arse off in the end when she was crying and you heard(forget who the girl talking was) "oh shit, dont worry, we're gonna pay you good, its ok!"

 

[FeatheryOctopi]

I think safe words are a good idea in alot of random cases were ticklphile get together and don't know each other very well, but then again the first rule of bondage is Don't let someone you don't trust tie you up. Well i guess I'm saying FUCK SAFEWORDS too, because if the Tickler/Top doesn't have everything under control, you should not engage in anything that limits your ability to move just in case there is an emergency. The signs should be subtle but noticable. If their having trouble breathing in the first place why would you excpect them to be able to tell you to stop.

Just a thought.