Baseball Hall of Fame

[Mitchell]

Well, as baseball fans are aware, the Hall of Fame vote was yesterday, and all the "Steriods Home Run Kings". (Bonds, Sosa, McGwire) were shut out. As they should be. Hopefully, they will never get in. Electing guys like that to the Hall of Fame, is in essence sording the records of all the great HOF's who got in due to their great statistics from honest play.

I may have mentioned this in the past, but.. one guy who isnt in the Hall of Fame, who I personally think should be, is Tommy John. Granted, he fell short of 300 wins, finishing at 288 wins, with a 3.34 ERA. Of course, as baseball fans know, Mr John missed half of the 1974 season, and all of 1975 recovering from the ligament transplant surgery that is now named after him. Had John not missed that time, its highly likely he would have gotten to 300 wins. I'm surprised that the Veterans Committee hasnt selected John for the HOF, especially considering the fact of the tainting by the Steriods guys, and John's circumstances.

Thoughts on the Hall, the Steroids guys, and whether John should be elected.?

 

[jhop220]

Craig Biggio should have went in this year. He didn't have any association with the drug use that some others on this class did.

Curt Schilling should also have gotten the nod.

Bonds could get in based off his career in Pittsburgh alone.

Clemons should get in as well...never failed a test like Bonds.

Next year includes Tom Glavine, Greg Maddox, and Frank Thomas....all better get into the HOF

 

[PhilipRJ_UK]

Hardly surprised that McGwire and company were omitted yet again. Their HOF plaques would be marked with an asterisk anyway......

 

[milagros317]

Of course I hope that Bonds never gets in, since his steroid glory years were with the hated jints.

With regard to players who deserve to be in the HOF but are not, I will name two Dodgers:
1) Maury Wills, who brought the stolen base back to baseball in 1962, and who has a better record than some of the shortstops who are in the HOF, and
2) Gil Hodges, who ought to be in as a first baseman (Dodgers) and as a manager (NY Mets)

 

[Mitchell]

Another argument in favor of Tommy John getting in.

Bert Blyleven didnt make it to 300 wins, finishing at 287-250 with a 3.31 ERA, nearly exactly the same numbers as John, and Blyleven is in the Hall. Granted, Blyleven was a strikeout pitcher, and had 3,700 K's, but Tommy John's forte was not strikeouts. He was a ground ball pitcher.

I truly think the Hall has messed up in the case of Tommy John. I believe he should get in. Hopefully, they will eventually give him his place.

 

[The Fallen Angel]

I think Bonds, Clemens etc etc guys who we all believe used steroids but never failed a test have to go in. Yes they probably did it, however in my opinion you can't/shouldn't keep someone out of the HOF for probably

Mcgwire and Sosa should also both go in, in my mind more because they "saved" baseball, yes they cheated.. but they brought attention back to baseball in a time where it was floundering... without them, baseball could have gone the way of hockey where yeah its still around but most sports fans don't pay attention to it.. out of sight out of mind sort of thing

 

[Mitchell]

Fallen, with all due respect, how can baseball legitimately put in guys that cheated, to a place where only the best belong, because they did it honestly? To me, even though the guys you mentioned didnt fail tests, the evidence against them is enough.

This is my partial list of who really belongs, and why.

Maddux. 355 wins, 3.16 ERA, 3371 K's, Four Cy youngs. He did it honestly.

Glavine. 300 plus wins. All honestly.

Smoltz : The only guy with 200 wins and 150 saves. 3000 plus K's, again all honestly.

Jeter.. 300 plus lifetime batting average, more than 3300 hits and counting.. all honestly.

Rivera, more than 600 saves, baseball's all time saves leader, again, all done honestly.

I know I'm leaving some guys who will be coming up and deservant off the list, but I truly dont think that Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire. Arod, belong.


Only my opinion of course. I think that the Hall of Fame vote committee, must feel as I do, considering the most recent vote.

 

[storm7400]

Cheating in baseball is as old as the game itself. This after the fact moral crusade by the writers is nothing more then a sham and reeks of a hollow attempt to make amends for failing to break the biggest story in sports. We all, fans, players, owners, everyone need to accept we allowed the "Steroid Era" to not only happen but we all have blood on our hands. Trying to fight a crusade a decade after the fact just allows the wound to fester and never heal.

This vote has literally opened Pandora's Box for the Hall. Candidates are being held back because of accusations, grudges and at the vilest of actions pure speculation. Bonds and Clemons never failed a test because at the very least baseball turned a blind eye to the elephant in the road. Glavine was head of the Player's Union for many years during this debacle, so if players can't get in for assumptions of PED use, doesn't it stand to reason he should be kept out for not advocating proper testing? Maddux never seemed to ever get hurt nor miss extended time, isn't conceivable that he used to stay healthy? These are reaches I honestly admit, yet they now pass the sniff test established burden shown by the writers.

Keeping the guys out of the HOF tarnishes the game more then honoring them ever could because in the end we all allowed this travesty to happen. Time for all of us to admit our collective failings and move on with the truth we all know. Yes players used performance enhancers, but not all of them, yes hallowed records were destroyed as a result. But finally yes, these men are Hall of Famers.

 

[TMJ Productions]

All the cheating talk took away from one guy who should be in the Hall!!

Jack Morris!!!!!!

 

[PhilipRJ_UK]

Rivera, more than 600 saves, baseball's all time saves leader, again, all done honestly.

He'll be in there as soon as he hangs up his pitcher's glove. No doubt at all.

 

[Radiohead 7140]

All the steroid users who otherwise would be inducted on their numbers should get in. The HOF is filled with cheaters (amphetamine users like willy mays, spitballers, etc.) terrible people (racists like Ty Cobb), etc. It should be in the context of the era. Steroids were not even explicitly banned at the time. It's just a big awkward hole without them there. Accept that we were complacent (and tacitly supportive) of the behaviour through our undying love of the long ball in the 90's, and consider them "cheaters" prospectively and consider not allowing them in.

Top guy who should be in is Pete Rose. He bet on his OWN team, after he was done playing. The all time hits leader not being in the hall is a similar glaring gap.

Joe Jackson should be in. He may have fixed a Series, but he was statistically one of the greatest players ever.

To me, the bigger issue is that too many players are allowed in. I think the HOF should be reserved for the very greatest players. With the threshold for induction we have today, the place will be filled with relative "no-names" of years past. So, no, Tommy John was a great player, but I don't consider his career so great to be HOF worthy.

 

[Mitchell]

Sorry to bump this couple of month old thread. Just wanted to make a point.

mils mentioned that he believes Gil Hodges should get into the Hall. I recently bought a book on Hodges. His stats, 370 HRs, present a good argument.

However, in the book about Mr Hodges, it is stated that he has likely been omitted from the Hall due to his lifetime batting average of .273.

If we are making a case that Hodges belongs.. another guy that has nearly the same stats as Hodges, and isn't in , is Dale Murphy.

Murphy had a 265 lifetime BA, and 369 HRS, not to mention back to back MVP awards. Granted, except for 1982 and 1983 when they were contenders, the Braves usually were awful during the years Murphy played. Sure fire HOF'er Tom Glavine, (who was Murphy's Braves teammate for the first four years of Glavine's career) said that he believes Murphy is on the bubble.

I'm personally surprised that the Veterans Committee hasn't selected both Hodges and Murphy. You could argue that they both belong.

 

[Barbershopman]

Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz definitely should be in. Rivera is a no-brainer as well.

Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and Sosa I agree is opening Pandora's box. Think about it, if you let in the guys that failed the drug tests, what about Pete Rose, Joe Jackson, the Black Sox, I mean where does it end?

As for who should be in that isn't, maybe I'm a bit biased, but I really believe that Buck O'Neil belongs in the hall. Granted, he was an average ball player at best, lifetime .288 avg. But I believe he has been an ambassador of the game like no other: First black manager in the major leagues, was instrumental in discovering and signing many stars. Ken Burns series on baseball doesn't take place if he doesn't interview Buck. Plus, without him, do we know about Josh Gibson, Cool "Papa" Bell and many other Negro Leagues stars? When he spearheaded the Veteran's committee to consider the Negro League Era, 16 players from that era went into the hall. Sadly, he was not one of the names. Instead, during the announcement of those names, he asked how many men went in, his reply to the answer was "16, that's wonderful!" His words to his fans, "Don't weep for Ol' Buck, they just thought I wasn't good enough." This to me was a bunch of BS. There's more to the game of baseball than the stats on the field.

The Hall of Fame committee asked him to speak at the ceremony when those players were inducted. Many fans were outraged, they thought it was a slap in the face, you aren't being inducted but would you come and say a few words. Instead, Buck being Buck took the high road and came and gave an eloquient speech, ending it with everybody holding hands and singing together. Sadly, October of that same year, Buck passed away at 94, never having achieved the hall of fame.

Barbershopman

 

[Mitchell]

The other thing.. maybe rubbing it in..but..

Everyone ranks on the Braves. 14 straight division titles, only one World Series. The Yankees won five World Series from 1996 to 2009, but,. more than likely, the Braves will have five guys get into the Hall honestly, as opposed to only three for the Yankees.

Braves HOF's.

Maddux
Glavine
Smoltz. (If he doesn't make it, that's a travesty, the only guy with 200 wins, and 150 saves)
Chipper.
Cox. (He really should make it)

Yankees. The only honest HOF's not counting the Steroids boys, Arod, and Clemens.

Jeter
Rivera
Torre.

Soo. Yankees won more World Series than Braves, five WS, to one for us, but.. Braves should have more HOF's because, our great players got their statistics honestly. No one can tell me that Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine were on Steroids. They were just amazing pitchers. Maddux, 355 wins, almost 3400 K's. Glavine.. 305 wins. Neither guy threw 90 mph, and they are 6 feet tall and not more than 180 lbs.

 

[Mitchell]

I'm bumping this thread again. While I was watching the Mets and Braves today, the Hall subject came up with broadcasters Keith Hernandez and Gary Cohen of the Mets.

They questioned whether, because of the fact that starting pitchers now get fewer decisions, than in the days of the 300 game winners who are in, with all the relief specialists, and such, whether.. 200 or 250 wins, now is the new 300.

Three pitchers come to mind with this stat.

Mike Mussina. He retired with 275 wins. Granted.. he had a 3 plus ERA. However, with Joe Torre's, and other managers he played for.. constant use of the pen, would Mussina have gotten to 300, with more decisions, also, he retired after a 20 win season., Mussina also had 2800 K's, certainly a very positive argument in favor that he belongs.

Tim Hudson: Hudson, counting today's win over the Mets.. is now at 201 wins. If he plays.. 3 more years, to age 40, and wins an average of 16 to 18 a year, which is right on par with his career, and finishes with 250 wins, and a 3 or a bit over ERA, does he belong? Double figures in wins for more than a decade, etc.

Andy Petitte: Granted.. he's 40 years old, and may be near the end. He's two wins from 250, even with a career ERA of 3.86. He gets to 250 likely unless he never pitches again. He has been a great pitcher for many years. Does he, like Hudson, and Mussina, along with the other argument of fewer decisions, give reason to thought of lowering the bar from 300 wins to maybe 250 for inclusion to the Hall?

Some of the 300 game winners of the 50s, 60s, and 70s, pitched in four man rotations, and got 41 starts a year. Now, with rainouts, skips, and off days, many pitchers get only 32, 33 starts a year.,

We may not see anyone get to 300 again. Mussina was the closest, and he retired. Hudson wont get there unless he plays another.. 7, 8 years. Not likely at age 37. Roy Halliday, who also has 200 wins, looks like he may be winding down.

If they start seeing pitchers retire at 200 to 250 wins, and the home run guys may not, without steroids, have numbers for the Hall, they may have to lower the standards for pitchers.. 200 to 250 may now be a vote into the Hall, considering all the cicumstances that didn't exist when the other 300 game winners played.

 

[Mitchell]

Jack Morris is another case in favor of my argument that 250 wins should be enough for inclusion to the Hall.

Morris had two twenty win seasons, the same as Greg Maddux, and finished with 254 wins. His ERA was 3,90, which is a bit high, but that was due to some high ERA years at the end of his career.

I guess the Hall must feel 300 wins does it, except, hopefully in the case of Smoltz as the only guy with 200 wins, and 150 saves. If that is the case, Mussina and Tommy John will be kept out, Andy Pettite wont likely make it, and neither will Tim Hudson, even if he does make it to 250 wins.