being a LEE vs being a SUB

[Mastertank1]

Dear Goddess;

I just want to build on something that my goddess, Steph, started. A few posts seem to be equating "lees" with "females" and when I finally got off my butt and attended my first gathering (two years ago this month) that was pretty much the case. Since then, more and more males, even those who are excellent lers, are embracing their lee side or at least giving it a try. And of course, some females are also checking out the ler side of the scene.

mmmmmmm this goddess loves equality and balance. heheheehe

I would hazard a guess that this is a result of the personal charm and general awesomeness of yourself, Mistress Locke, and the other divine ladies out there!

Of course, curmudgeons like myself come with natural armor against such weapons of mass distraction as charm and awesomeness.

In clubs in NYC, male subs were way more than half of the total population of the BDSM scene, because unless a place had a good rep, like the places where I bouncered, female subs were justly afraid to some out unless accompanied by a male protector. Generally, more male doms came out than female subs, and there were quite a few female doms. They usually brought one or more formidable looking sub males of their own along as muscle just in case, unless they trusted the security staff at a particular club to keep control.

 

[Mastertank1]

Hey, bro;

Well I once heard and agree with the LEE is the one with the power. Without LEES we LERS would only have.. well ourselves ( and we know there are alot of those around...lol ) Also some LERS ( though they will deny it alot ) are subs also. What I mean by that is that and I will use me for an example. Most who know me know that even though I am an all around LER.. I have a prefernce to feet. That being said I also have a foot fetish which if you think about it.. can make you a subbie too.. So anyway I do beleive as a LER that the LEE has all the power ( winks at Steph ) and that a Ler can be a subbie sometimes too.

Unless we're talking about a realworld nonconsensual situation, the lee/sub is always in control, their limits always respected; if those limits are pushed or expanded even that is by prior understanding!
As deviant of long standing, that's one rule I've never deviated from.

 

[Avenger314]

The 4 circles are grossly unequal in size and the overlaps are very assymetrical, even allowing for size differences.
Sub is the largest, by a huge factor.
Lee and Dom are about the same size, but lee is 98% contained within sub.
Dom has about 15% overlap with sub, and part of that will also overlap lee.
The smallest circle is ler. It is 98% contained within dom. Part of that overlap will be contained in the dom/sub overlap, and that part will also overlap lee.
The areas where dom overlaps sub and ler overlaps lee are the switchables.
The areas of lee and ler that do NOT overlap sub and dom respectively ware very small indeed, and will not be able to overlap each other without using a shape other than a circle.
I've always thought the Venn chart was utterly inadequate to represent complex real world truths.
But then, I've always been a surly curmudgeon.

Fair points. I should've called it a 2x2 matrix instead. As one of my MBA professors cheerfuly said, "It's amazing just how much of life can be fit into a 2x2 matrix."
I think he was kidding. I hope.
And yes, you're a surly curmudgeon 😀.
But everyone seems to love ya anyway.

 

[bellystrokes]

I would hazard a guess that this is a result of the personal charm and general awesomeness of yourself, Mistress Locke, and the other divine ladies out there!

Of course, curmudgeons like myself come with natural armor against such weapons of mass distraction as charm and awesomeness.

In clubs in NYC, male subs were way more than half of the total population of the BDSM scene, because unless a place had a good rep, like the places where I bouncered, female subs were justly afraid to some out unless accompanied by a male protector. Generally, more male doms came out than female subs, and there were quite a few female doms. They usually brought one or more formidable looking sub males of their own along as muscle just in case, unless they trusted the security staff at a particular club to keep control.

Hi sweetie,

First of all, here is your reality check: As far as I know, no female lee has been forced to endure a session in which she did not want to participate.

Now that does not mean that every touch is incredible to every lee. It is known to a lot of people that I can endure, even enjoy touches more intense and shall I say, brutal, than my lovely Goddess, Steph. Different strokes for different folks. And I will go on record, I haven't like every touch that has been applied to my body whether it has been at a gathering or getting a massage. or getting a facial. But that does not mean the person has evil intent--it just means your body does not like the touch. And sometimes the only way a ler finds out if his or her touch is lovely or not lovely on the body, is to touch.

Have some men been maybe too predatory and axnious? Yes. Not all human beings are perfect.

Have some women been too selective and rude to guys not worthy of them? Yes, Not all human beings are perfect.

But those who come in with a fun and open attitude and wanting to think the best of everyone and who are willing to communiciate their likes and dislikes in a positive manner or are willing to listen to the communications regarding likes and dislikes, have a great time. Bottom line: Some awesome folks in this community. Some awesome play potential. You want it bad enough. You can have it.

Ok, now round 2: Thank you for the nice compliment.

This is just my opinion, but I think it took the lovely presence of Mistress Stephanie Locke to get a few males to say, "okay, I will lee". And from then on, more and more of the guys have been participating as lees. Now granted, it has helped that more of us females types have been devloping our ler skills as well, along with Mistress Ferral being a regular at the Passive Arts party. I still see women willing to tickle both men and women, and to be tickled by both men and women. But usually men are still only being tickled by the women. Hey, being a woman, it all works for me.

I think a lot has to do with the trust issue and comfort zone issue. When you feel part of something positive, you are more inclinded to be brave and take chances---it is that way it life in general.

 

[bellystrokes]

Ok round three: I just wanted to illustrate what I was talking about. At the PA party this past weekend, I got some tickles on my side from this brand new guy---I loved his touched!!!! BUT I was thinking, he better lighten up if he ever meets Steph--this is too deep and rough for her comfort zone. Different strokes for differnt folks!

 

[fttickler]

Did I See apun...

different "Strokes" coming from the Belly Goddess?

 

[bellystrokes]

hehehe, hey I try to give and take as many as I can. hehehehehe

 

[steph]

Thank you MasterT! And thank YOU Goddess for always having my um, back!
XOXO

Ok round three: I just wanted to illustrate what I was talking about. At the PA party this past weekend, I got some tickles on my side from this brand new guy---I loved his touched!!!! BUT I was thinking, he better lighten up if he ever meets Steph--this is too deep and rough for her comfort zone. Different strokes for differnt folks!

 

[fttickler]

Steph...

one of these days... that too...lol

 

[Illtcklu]

I don't give orders (losers) and I don't take them from anyone else. I am primarily dominant IRL but as a lee, I totally submit to my ler, once they've proven themselves worthy of my trust. I don't know what box I fit into, I bet no one else does here either, unless you really know me, which is maybe 3 or 4 people here.
XOXO

The pink/oranges box.

 

[drew70]

I'm definitely a lee, but not necessarily a sub. The reason I say this is because I believe the passion of a sub is to be dominated, and tickling happens to be the tool upon which they've fixated to achieve this end.

But I like being tickled for any number of reasons. In my life long fantasies, the reasons for being tickled range from a group of female research scientists, studying the effects of tickling on the human nervous system to discovering a tribe of Amazon beauties who tickle with their fingers as a means of communication. (Okay, that was a lonnng time ago. 😀 )

I like to think of myself as a tickling purist. I like feet only as much as they are tickled. I like bondage only as a tool to administer tickle torture more efficiently and for greater durations. For me, tickling is paramount. All else is secondary.

 

[P[a]pi]

I'm a dom who is also a ler. I probably like bondage slightly more than tickling, but I love mixing the two together.

My girlfriend, Meka, is a sub who is also a lee.

We are in a dom/sub relationship. I punish her sometimes and when I do I put her in bondage and usually don't tickle her that much or at all. She wears a collar while she is being punished as well. Meka also wears a red bracelet at all times, which is basically her collar while she is out in public.

But don't get us wrong, sometimes I just tie her up and tickle the shit out of her.

There will be pics of Meka being punished in the "Non-ticklling Gallery" eventually and I already posted some tickling and non-tickling pics of her in the respective forums.

 

[Headsnap]

I'm definitely a lee, but not necessarily a sub. The reason I say this is because I believe the passion of a sub is to be dominated, and tickling happens to be the tool upon which they've fixated to achieve this end.

I like to think of myself as a tickling purist. I like feet only as much as they are tickled. I like bondage only as a tool to administer tickle torture more efficiently and for greater durations. For me, tickling is paramount. All else is secondary.

This is about as eloquently as I've seen my tickling fetish explained (except the part about being a 'lee, I'm more of a 'ler with a 'lee curiosity), and also a pretty eloquent description of the difference between a 'lee and a sub. What a guy 😀

 

[Sammi-chan]

You guys seem to be hitting all the important points of the topic. I can only speak as someone who's both a sub and a lee. There are very different sorts of feelings that come from each side. When I'm strictly being a lee, things are a bit more relaxed. It's, literally, just for laughs and it's all good fun. When I'm being a sub, even if I'm still being tickled, I expect it to be merciless and want to be forced to put all my control in someone else's hands. And just because of the different emotions associated with each side, I can definitely see how someone could be one and not the other.

 

[aun_existe_amor]

I'm not a lee at all. I do not get anything good out of being tickled. Although I'm mostly dominant in the bedroom area I do like to sub. The only place I am naturally dominant is the bedroom. I'm not a naturally dominant person in any other areas of my life.

 

[MEKA]

I'm whatever Papi says i am, BUT, if i had to choose i would have to say a lee, just beacuse i like tickling way more then just bondage itself.

 

[Eternal Tomboy]

I will also cast my vote in saying that I think there is a definite difference between being a 'lee and being submissive.

I'm a 'lee by nature, but when put in a bondage (or otherwise equally helpless situation), I won't necessarily submit to the 'ler. I have a stubborn streak and a NY girl attitude that's a MILE long and would rather eat dirt than give the 'ler the immediate satisfaction of seeing my submissive side. I think I would mockingly laugh at any 'ler who tried to bark orders or play the stereotypical dom with me. And if you're waiting for me to call you "master" or "sir", you might as well pull up a chair and make yourself comfortable cuz you might be there awhile 😉

Only after I've called the 'ler every name in the book, insulted his mother, and told him new and creative ways that he can go f#@! himself, THEN (if he's particularly talented in the tickling department) my submissive nature will ultimately come out. I don't like to submit just for the pleasure of being submissive. The pleasure for me comes when I'm forced to submit because I've been tickled passed the point of being able to maintain control of myself. So, does being into "forced submission" still make me a sub? Ya got me. All this definition crap is too damn confusing. 😕





Maggie