big government

[jj82277]

in perfect theory what is democracy. What is its purpose. why is it theoretically superrior to dictatorship.

It is a very effective tactic to throw out the name of the evil dictators of the world, and then associate the level of power that you attribute to current government officials to these men, but i beg the question is it the power or the man. The purpose of Democracy in of itself is to spread power so far and so wide that if one person in a leadership role took on an evil intent that the entire whole would be able to over ride him and make sure that the citizenry of the country would not be subject to the tyranous views of the few.

In Hitler's case the thing that compelled him to power was a people who were looking for someone to blame for the bad things that had happened to their country. Hitlers power was not in paper, it wasn't because he over time systematically through legal maneuvering alllowed his office to secretly gain ever so growing power, its because he gave people the drug that they so desperately needed, a scape goat for losing the first world war, and a sense that there was soeone who could be punished domesticalle and that he would lead the country back to greatness, from what i hear he was a very charismatic speaker, and based soley on the ability to motivate and build people was probably one of the greatest pure leaders that this world has ever seen. the reason that this was allowed for hitler was because he was able to motivate and convince a group of people to happily cooperate in the mass murder of millions and seriously contemplate world domination. Germany in that time if there was a legislature of 1000000 people, they would have agreed with him. the shuffling of paopaer that gave him the power was not the issue, the issue was, that possibly more than any other human being before him, he was truly evil. I personally believe that there is a small gap between detaining a prisoner of war too long, or subhjecting him to sleep deprevation, than the covert murder of 11 million people just for looking a certaion way, and preying to a different god, call me crazy.

as for the american tyrants, as all men, some of their actions were terrible, some unconcionable, but lets take a look at the first American tyrant, he was assasinated two days after he gave a contraversial speech about advancing the voting rights of my ancestors, and someone who took the job that no one wanted, with his death, all but certain in any throw of the dice, and we tear him down

FDR in his tyranical bid to give starving people jobs through government unded programs still managed to defeat the truly evil tyrant that you cited, even after defeating polio, giving his twighlight years in servitude to his country, the evil bastard right.

in the years following the new deal the american spirit rose up and eventually as the eagle landed in the far reaches of space crushed fromafar the ring of tyranny that stalin built.

and bush, taking it upon his deep conviction to extend the olive branch by whatever means necessary to a people that without his encouragement ad help had no hope of democracy. To make as many reaches back to the values that were ever so present in the founders of this great nation to stabalize a judiciary that had acted outside the expectations of the founding fathers when they invisioned lifetime appointments as a shield against political tidal waves, and not as licenses to disreguard the will of the people.

and i think that its fate that you mention the roman empire, and what happened to fair rome, the great empire. cancer. it was eaten alive, its population dwindled unable to support the vast territories that it had conquered through then honorable conquest, because men took the misuse of other men, and women took the misuse of other women (homosexuality), and women through off the sacrament of child berth (hey glory) for the supple beauty of youth, but at least in those days, in order to remain unpregnat, they had to remain abstinant. the true american tragedy is that in todays last remaining superpower they just engage in lustful congress, and have the unwanted child slaughtered for their own personal freedom (i feel like running).

to each there own in the bedroom, but i (and i forgett the exact number) can not believe, that you would put the subtle fluctuation in the seperation of powers before the slaughter of tens of millions in the whombs of girls who were not strong enough to be true women.

My beliefs are simple, there is right and there is wrong, being human we are all going to go with wrong a hell of alot, and that is not limited and dman sure not excluding elected officials, but i enjoy the fact that i can feel safe at night knowing that whateve rhappens here in these 50 dots in the sands of time that the prevailing doctrine at leat to this point of our actions as we transcend our timultuous adolescence as a nation have been in the ultimate persuit of truth justice, and the persuit of fruitful happieness for all.

 

[august spies]

punk they didnt jsut spy, they more than likely at least played some part in the assasination of MLK didnt you know that. The greatest danger to ever face the planet was the cold war, because the wrong move would have resulter in the entire annialation of humanity.

I think that the reason that MLK was a great man was because he existed in a time in which true racism existed. I think that the strides that he made in the Civil rights movement more than warrant the fact that this day ws named after him, but During the Vietnam conflict he was a key instrument in the subversion of this nation making the insinuation that this country, as you so eloquently put it, was an imperialist power yada yada yada, and that the war in vietnam was so wrong, and with the great level of influence that he had in the political arena and because of the fact that he was viewed as being a risk to national security and did in fact add feul to the fire that would eventually lead to the mini revolt that forever crippled our moral conviction about fighting the war in vietnam. Do i agree with the fact that they did it, no, but do i think that they did it just to hurt black people, hell no. I personally chal it up to the fact that thats what you get for putting Democrats in office, but at any rate. once agian the main point we disagree on is not the fact that the governments actions were wrong in this case, but the driving factors behind them.

Rich-Racist-Imperialists. one minute you accuse the man of hating people who look a certain way, and then the next minute you criticize him for having relations close enough to certain portions of them. The truth is that the Republican party as a whole has done more for the advancement of African Americans in this country than any other group, just because a lot of people believe otherwise doesnt mean they are right. If the main concern of a group is monetary gain to a certain extent then thats fine, "fterall , we are not communists" The Godfather part I but i sincerly doubt the fact that they instigate wars solely for the purpose of monetary gain.

In the most rudementary war games they incorporate the fact that when you engage in war, you have to take a certain amount of gold, or increase trade, or develop new business relationships to pay for the war, thats just reality. the fact that our economy will not suffer long term or might even increase in the sake of justice then there is nothing wrong with it. A while back a lot of people were criticizing the norths motives in the Civil War, you can be certain of one thing, the South damn sure wasnt fighting to free the slave. You can be damn sure Sadamm wasnt fighting to end terrorism.

A government is like a person becauss it is just agroup of foulable people, overtime it will make a lot of mistakes, and terrible decisions. In the long run the only thing that you can ask is that its motivating factor was to protect its citizens. your proposal as most and i dont mean to sound harsh, but cowards is to not live at all, to never strive to build a collective community with leaders, just as some men are afraid to live. because that way you will never make mistakes, you will never have to be judged. but everyone makes mistakes, and i bet if we took your life under a fine tooth comb or mine that there would be a group of peoiple that would just say, they're never going to get it perfectly right so whats the point of trying. and that is the true essence like it or not of the "anarchists" when you strip away all the romantic coffee house crap that people use to get laid.

im sorry, other than ignoring my question this post was incredibly difficult to comprehend. can you try to post it again and this time could you respond to my question and also be more coherent in your new points so we can continue this dicussion.

I dont think this is even a sentence?

". your proposal as most and i dont mean to sound harsh, but cowards is to not live at all, to never strive to build a collective community with leaders, just as some men are afraid to live."

 

[asutickler1]

your idea that the "government only breaks up protests that violate the law" is totally wrong. and even if anarchists do "break the law" as in seattle, they did it for good reason.

Good reason? Hardly. Your petty, misplaced outrage is not a legitimate reason to start a riot.

yes and people continue to do so. if thats not human nature, why the need for government lies and government repression?

It is interesting (and rather telling) that you constantly speak in vague generalities. What "government lies?" What "government repression?" It sounds rather like the sort of ramblings you'd hear from some brainwashed cultist...

to say that anarchism and the racist klan are similar because they both want to change society is stupid, yes they do want to change society but for completely different reasons.

Strange... When I look at anarchists and the Klan, I see two groups of people who have failed to succeed in life. Rather than accept their shortcomings, both groups elect to blame their problems on others. The Klan blames racial minorities, and anarchists blame some ridiculous, amorphous government conspiracy. There is very little difference between the two.

to say their tactics are the same is downright moronic. So lynchings cross burnings and terrorism against innocent people is the same as holding teach ins at libraries on human rights, having protests, and fighting for labor unions and workers rights?

Some members of the Klan are non-violent... Just like some anarchists are terrorists. Both groups have a broad spectrum of participants: Some are violent, and some are not.

Amazingly, you seem to have completely forgotten the lawless behavior you referenced just a few sentences ago. The incident in Seattle, if you recall? Teach-ins and protests my ass.

 

[asutickler1]

im sorry, other than ignoring my question this post was incredibly difficult to comprehend. can you try to post it again and this time could you respond to my question and also be more coherent in your new points so we can continue this dicussion.

I dont think this is even a sentence?

Ok there, William Shakespeare... 🙄

You have absolutely NO room to criticize anyone else's posts in regards to spelling, grammar, or ease of comprehension. Do you even read the jumbled gibberish you write?

 

[jj82277]

SKIP OWN FOR THE SUMMARY

I'm sorry it was late, ill try to summarize, thsi government has done a lot of things that we are not and should not be proud of. I'll give you that. But if these actions were done in the intent of protecting its citizens (this is where you and i disagree) then it doesn't really bother me. If there is someone who is breaking into my house late at night and i think he has a gun, i am going to shoot him, i will ask questions when my family is safe. I think that is what a lot of the covert actions of our government have been, not always the right choice, but for the most part is in my oppinion congruent with the best intentions of preserving this nation. even the surveilance of MLK Jr. because he was a direct advocate against the vietnam war in a time that the country was on the verge of ripping itself apart. the last thing you needed was a leader like that being coeerced by an outside force at that time in history, it didnt hurt to have a couple of people make sure his friends were okay. I was just illustrating that i am not under the illusion that our country is perfect.

..... i hear you using the word imperialist a lot. you even used the word settler doctrine. My college professors said the same thing, listening is our choice okay. we are not trying to settle iraq. Wether we were truly fighting solely for the freedom of iraq and our security is admitadly a subject that can be debated, what is not in question is that Sadamm was a pit bull that we had on a leash at one time, that was an evil bastard who bit its master one too many times. you cant make any argument, with words as long as you want that can convince me that it would have been better for the people of Iraq with him in power. you can go on and listen to the media if you want too, who are filling your head with all that negative stuff if you want, but I just see Iraqi women who never dreamed of freedom crying in the senate chamber on national TV. They are better off that we stepped in and freed them. to say that we are the ones oppressing the iraqi people is right up there with trying to say that troy (however you spell his last name) didn't catch that interception, it just defies the obvious facts. The united nations resolutions would not have had any creddability had we not acted. In my oppinion that will be the longest lasting impact of this conflict, that when the world speaks for twelve years and you don't listen that members of the international community will enforce the worlds will.

......you made the insinuation that the only people who would benefit from the war on terror were the rich, last time i checked they didnt bombe a country club, everyone in this country needs safety, and please dont play this evil rich card. the wealthy 1% of this country are allocated as follows. 1% lottery/inheritance, 5%sales people, 10%doctors/lawyers, 10% ceo's presidents, and top executives, and then finally 74% are entrepenuers. everyone in this country gets the same 24 hours to work with, the ones who are wealthy 99% of the time just used their 24 hours better than everyone else. don't play the evil rich card. the reason that you see people of affluance often associated with taking the necessary steps to spread democracy and freedom, is because to reach the plateau of wealth they had to have the balls to look failure in the eye, and try anyway (that's all that war is).

......racist, please. as an african american i hate this argument and am truly emberassed at the fact our community helps proliferate the biggest misnomer in the history of the modern american era. there is no great white conspiracy. I know kanye west says otherwise, but im sorry there isn't. I know it hurts to take full responsability for your own actions, but you have to. Once you do it's quite liberating, take it from me solets just move on. too many people shed their blood for us to get to this point for us to dwell on the spectar of an affliction long since banised from our path.


.....Ecenomic prosperity and war, come on. as i mentioned before, wars cost money, and for shouldering the burden of spreading freedom, why shouldnt we be the first to enjoy trade with the new governments that we help build. true freedom is the ability to persue financial independence. providing business oppurtunities to other countries will give poeple hope. that's why capitalism and democracy go hand in hand.


as for the anarchist position,down with the government rule of law, come on man. there will always be a need for a group to rise and lead, that's jsut the truth. and you know what they will make a lot of mistakes, and people who dont have the courage to put their name on a ballot will always be able to rip it apart and say that they should have never tried, but you we can't let that stop us from governing, or leading. It's the same with ecenomic difference, the ones who never had the courage to dilligently persue owning there own business will always have contempt for those who did and succeeded. Often times they blame the most readily available variable that might have prevented them, like racism. you feel less bad for not achieving your dreams when you are under the dillusion that a force of white men are the ones keepin ya down cuz (90%-10% democrat republican in voting because of that. that is in statistics what we call a misnomer. that means that this demographic has a whole nother set of issues it considers (the spectar of racism) than the rest of the demographics that never get any more lop sidded than 65-35 for single women 'abortion'.)

SKIP HERE FOR THE SUMMARY: In short we're not perfect, but we are hardly imperialist either, no matter what college teachers say. There is nowhite conspiracy, and Kanye is just going to have to deal with that. we are always going to have a need for government sir, and you just have to understand that as long as there will be men there will be mistakes and bad stuff, but you hae to take the flees with the dog, just make sure its a good dog. The rich are the rich because they are not lazy, that is why they are at the forefront of most of the initiatives in this country (it's because they are predisposed to getting off their ass and doing what is necessary.)

finally i leave with a few questions punk, you have done extensive research on some of the dirty spots in this countries covert past, what is an IRA (roth and traditional)? what is the rule of 72? and what is the average rate of return for the stock market? and what is the average rate of return for a growth mutual fund sincee 1929?

 

[jj82277]

damn nice post aus, i think that the wordl series of poker brought about the only thing that i can say to add to it.

ausi ausi ausi, olli olli olli, ausi ausi ausi, olli olli olli, ausi, olli, ausi, olli, ausi ausi ausi, olli olli olli. I loved it when they did that.

 

[jj82277]

domination

of course you cannot defeat terror, with the current policy. if you are going to dominate people, they will push back. this response will come in several ways, mostly rational ie( political movements, protests, campainging, unions,etc..) and there will always be a fringe of irrational responses(suicide bombings, 9/11, london tube attacks, etc..)

if we are serious about ending terror we need to start talking about ending the political and economic domination of people in the developing world. and secondly we can also latch on to the rational responses of these people and promote them.

HARDLY, what are you considering plitical and economic DOMINATION. it sounds god on paper, but are you actually saying that the human rights and the economic evelopment of the iraqi people would have been better off under Sadamm. I hope that you are kidding. Thooe peopele are going to benefit from having the ability to develop their own democratic government, our continued presence serves only as security to protect those that speak out for democracy from those who oppose it, not to clolonize there sir.

as for economic diomination, those poeple are going to be a free country, with a valuable naitonal resource. they are going to be able to deveop free trade relations with differnt countries, and us as well, (i dont appologize for that). There will be virtually unlimited business oppurtunities for the iraqi people as their democracy rises, and i don't mind the fact that our own economy will benefit from the new democracy that we helped father. I know what you are thinking, and i used to watch CNN too, but i was able to quit. I'm sorry to break it to you, but they are voting in a higher frequency than we do, and they are under a great threat of terror, they appreciate their new found freeedom, and we will not be forgotten when the oil starts flowing; in short we're winning, im sorry. FOX NEWS, this is where the healing begins.

WE WANT HANNITY!@ lol

 

[Goodieluver]

first off your idea that if somone was a "true anarchist" the would join the government is a bit ridiculous.

seconldy, the anarchist movement is weak (but growing) because it was crushed by the government. try this analogy; you invent the light bulb and then i step on it and say "see it doesnt work". not fair right?

rights and its those freedoms i want to expand as well as economic freedoms and basic human rights. all things contrary to the government

Really, so its ridiculous to get elected to something to tear it down from the inside?

Its funny how you only list this government, why dont you list other governments in the world, why not explain how those governments subdue freedoms and such to "Crush the heroic anarchist movement" Tell me what England is currently doing to subdue its peoples. All of the governments of the world have flaws, but you simply choose to target the convient one being the united states. Why is there no world wide anarchist uprising, esp when anarchists roots are deep in England?

Ok fine hypothetical, tell me exactly and detailed how\what an anarchsit movement would do for this nation\the world and what your exact role would be. Also, what would happen to the people who are rightfully opposed to your movement, since, we do have the freedom to disagree. I forsee alot of bloodshed and it not being shed by the government

You want to overthrow government and replace it with a government. Run for president and see if the people want your view point, stop being an elitist and thinkin that you know more\better than everyone else. I am ignorant, i admit i can be wrong, hence why i am alive, to further my knowledge and limit my ignorance. YOU are the minority and the majority of people are for elected officials and the government we have today. Stop being selfish because the govt rubbed you the wrong way and feel u need retribution. Theres 300 million + people other than you

 

[Goodieluver]

Very well said fascistssuck the centralization of our govt. since FDR should never have been allowed if the people were paying attention. We've been distracted from the real evil here by inane headlines ( such as OJ Simpson , Scott Peterson , etc.) , sports , TV , and last but not least paying taxes. The average family bread winner works the first 5.5 months to pay taxes. We don't have time to follow the subtle changes that occured to our laws. The depression, Pearl Harbor, and 911 were used as launch pads for more restrictive laws. Kissinger said the only way to get Americans to give up their liberty was to frighten them into giving them up voluntarily. It's no coincidence that these disasters precede stricter legislation. We talk about the Reichstag but fail to see it when it happens to us. Bush sr. was interviewed by Helen Thomas the White House reporter) after his speech announcing the New World Order on Sept 11 1991 and he said ( on the record ) " if the American people knew what we Bushes have done to this country, they would chase us into the streets and hang us from the lightpoles". An interesting comment from a president , don't you think.During his presidency FDR said, " there are no coincidences in politics".

And yet after all those horrible events, the economy boomed due to wartime, it made the country better because it made jobs and fed people. The economy is currently on the rise after it took a horrible tumble when the tech bubble popped(and no george bush jr did not pop it) Just for clarification, what rights were taken away\laws enacted for depression\pearl harbor are you refering to? I know you mean the patriot act when you say 911 but other than the new deal plan(which some say was unconst. and fdr tried to do the same thing President bush and ALL presidents who appoint Supreme court justices try to do)

For the people who want no more govt involvement, fine, stop using anything the government has created, such as the highways, alot of the power systems in the country is from government funding, dont use public ed, dont use gas because that comes from companies aided by govt, go live in a shack off the land

 

[Betchass1]

HARDLY, what are you considering plitical and economic DOMINATION. it sounds god on paper, but are you actually saying that the human rights and the economic evelopment of the iraqi people would have been better off under Sadamm. I hope that you are kidding. Thooe peopele are going to benefit from having the ability to develop their own democratic government, our continued presence serves only as security to protect those that speak out for democracy from those who oppose it, not to clolonize there sir.

as for economic diomination, those poeple are going to be a free country, with a valuable naitonal resource.

That is a fantasy. They would have been better off had we not aided Saddam with various biological weapons and *removed* his regime from the U.S. list of terrorist nations 20 years ago.
Our government wants to dominate their country and take their oil. That is the only reason they give a shit. Our presence in the Middle East is flooding terrorist organizations with recruits, and has invoked strong disapproval from the majority of the Earth's population.
I never understood how someone fighting in his own country against a foreign army was an "insurgent."

 

[plumr2003]

And yet after all those horrible events, the economy boomed due to wartime, it made the country better because it made jobs and fed people. The economy is currently on the rise after it took a horrible tumble when the tech bubble popped(and no george bush jr did not pop it) Just for clarification, what rights were taken away\laws enacted for depression\pearl harbor are you refering to? I know you mean the patriot act when you say 911 but other than the new deal plan(which some say was unconst. and fdr tried to do the same thing President bush and ALL presidents who appoint Supreme court justices try to do)

For the people who want no more govt involvement, fine, stop using anything the government has created, such as the highways, alot of the power systems in the country is from government funding, dont use public ed, dont use gas because that comes from companies aided by govt, go live in a shack off the land

Are you saying that war is justified by economic gain?The myth that war is good for the economy is just that, a myth. Our nation has always gone into tremendous debt in every war we ever fought. Have you seen our natl. debt numbers since this war? And to top it off the dept. of defense has " misplaced" one trillion dollars in Iraq that Dumbsfeld couldn't account for to a congressional hearing. As far as oppressive laws stemming from Pearl Harbor, how about imprisoning hundreds of thousands of Japanese Americans in internment camps. As far as road improvements,etc. , the last I heard my taxes , which I've been paying ( both personally and corporate) for the past 50 years is what supplied those improvements, so don't you dare tell me to go live in a shack, kid.I served my country as a Green Beret in Vietnam when I talk about the idiocy of a war it's because I know from first hand experience that what you hear back home is diluted BS that the powers that be want you to hear.

 

[plumr2003]

There are currently 3 countries in the world whose economies aren't controlled by foriegn banker interests. Every day our headlines blare reasons why these countries are a threat to the US. These ountries are Iraq, North Korea, and Venezuela. Coincidence?, I don't think so.When Eisenhower left office he gave a great farewell speech and in it he warned the people of this country to be aware of the influence of the military/ industrial complex, which he said that with the help of banking systems would find reasons to keep this country in a perpetual state of conflict.The debt we incurred im WW1 caused us to rely on the newly established Federal Reserve to back our dollar. The fed is not part of this govt. they are a conglomerate of overseas banks that formed a corp. to lend money to the US.Thats why the fiat money in your wallet is marked Fed. Res. note. A note is not money it's an IOU. For every dollar we print for them ( and they pay only the cost of printing , which is pennies ) they are allowed to lend seven dollars that doesn't exist, it's just a number on a computer screen at their banks. Under pressure fron the Fed Res FDR made it illegal for Americans to own gold. They actually forced your grandparents to hand over their actual riches , in the form of physical gold or gold backed US treasury money and gave them IOUs. Every once in awhile a true patriot politician will rebel too loudly about this scam. Sen Larry Thompson did: he died on flight KAL007 shotdown over Russia, Sen Heinz did: his private plane went down two weeks later, Pres Kennedy actuaaly signed Executive Order 11009 which did away with the Federal Reserve system and he printed 4 billion dollars of silver certificate US Treasury money to be distributed to replace the fed's notes, he got shot in the head a month later before the money could be distributed. The first thing LBJ did on the plane from Dallas to Washington DC was to recind the executive order. LBJ then went on to escalate the Vietnam War making millions for gun and armament manufacturers. Maybe you like having the wool pulled over your eyes but I don't. Its funny how any pol that opposes foriegn controlled banking winds up dead. By the way don't try to buy any stock in the Federal Reserve because American citizens are prohibited by the by-laws of the federal reserve to own any stock in their corp..

 

[jj82277]

You know Plumr my favorite little charecter in US histroy is hands down Bob Mcnamara. The defense secretary during the vietnam war. His story eas the funniest of all to me. Hear you have this young guy who a year earlier invented the seat belt, (literally) and became the first person outside of the Ford Family to become president of the company, in the late 50's early 60's he was being paid 800,000 dollars a year by the Ford corporation. Then one day a young kid from masachusettes sends a representative to his house five weeks after his promotion to ask him to be the secretary of the treasury, and he refuses saying he isnt qualified enough, then he says' the president elect anticipating you would say that has authorized me to offer you the secretary of defense position, and he thought about it because he did serve in an administrative capacity in WW II and then went to meet with Kenedy the next day to tell him formally that he didnt want the position, and then after a two hour meeting he was announced as the defense secretary of the Kennedy Administration. Listening to him tell the story of vietnam now, in ust a 2-hour depiction helps unveil the tremendous complexities of that war,

as for your post, i think that it just adds a lot more feul to the fire of the kennedy assasination not being the lone gun men, I always wondered how from teh zupruter film, where kennedy's head is clearly going back towards the depository and away from the grassy nole at impact of the head shot that any reasonable persion, let alone the warren commision couldn't figure out that the bullet had to originate there, and the magic bullet theory is just ludacy.

I have to admit though that you have somewhat sparked my interest, but other than unanimity, what would we have to gain from these people participating in the system. Is there anything in history that leads you to believe that the fed is a corrupt institution. what good came from the creation of the federal reserve in the first place, why does the president appoint the head (at least to my knowledge). how would our banking system be more beneficial to the average system had the fed never been invented? (i am asking these just to gain more info about your position i'm not challenging you)

 

[jj82277]

different war

That is a fantasy. They would have been better off had we not aided Saddam with various biological weapons and *removed* his regime from the U.S. list of terrorist nations 20 years ago.
Our government wants to dominate their country and take their oil. That is the only reason they give a shit. Our presence in the Middle East is flooding terrorist organizations with recruits, and has invoked strong disapproval from the majority of the Earth's population.
I never understood how someone fighting in his own country against a foreign army was an "insurgent."

20 years ago their was a different war to fight. we wanted a friend in that region o the world, i think its as simple as that. I don't think that the real intention of the Regan administration was for him to use them on his own citizens, or to invade kuwait or anything like that, as i said efore, a pitbull on a leash when he bites his master has to be put down and they put him down, they didn't up and decide to do it, the Un ad been dragging its feet for the last 12-13 years with resolutions demanding action and the pen is meaningless without the sword, and i have no problem championing the international will inspite of international lazieness (or corruption as we later found with all thosee opposing us protecting thir financial interests).

as for the term dominate and take, where does this come from, are you strictly quoting liberal rehtoric or do you have your own ideas to discuss. If we just wanted to take the oil we wouldn't have to invest the time ininsuring that they eastablish a working democratic government now would we. It's only logical that we would allow the counry the business of exprting oil to us and abroad, why, because it would be in our own longterm intersts. even if we were the evil bastards you claim us to be, they are not stupid, if the iraqi people get nothing out of their greatest national resource and are forced to live in filth and squallr, i have no doubt that as they should they would sabotage and bomb the oil plants everyday, so i dont think you are going to see that. i think that you will see the devlopnment of their economy based on the production and export of oil, and as a byoproduct it will create jobs, and with jobs comes the oppurtunity for other businesses forpeople to spend their money. In the process of finding another place to imprt oil from abroad, their is no choice, but to create economic prosperity in said country.

Just because Kerry said it doesn't make it true. The republican party, contrary to popular belief is not a bunch of sadistic old racist guys, who just want to see people suffer. They are businessmen. And it wold just flat out be bad business not give the iraqi people major incentive to do business with s, not to mention the fact that this war will be judged in the eyes of history by the relations we keep with iraq after we leave, and i don't think that Bush gets ready to leave office that he wants his historical legacy to be tarnished by shotsighted thinking

 

[plumr2003]

have to admit though that you have somewhat sparked my interest, but other than unanimity, what would we have to gain from these people participating in the system. Is there anything in history that leads you to believe that the fed is a corrupt institution. what good came from the creation of the federal reserve in the first place, why does the president appoint the head (at least to my knowledge). how would our banking system be more beneficial to the average system had the fed never been invented? (i am asking these just to gain more info about your position i'm not challenging you The reason that the fed system was established was because the united States was bankrupt after ww1 and the quick fix was to bring in this corp. for cash flow just like desperate people borrow money from loansharks. Being of Italian descent and raised in Harlem I saw many people lose their cars, business' and even homes to loansharks when they couldn't keep up with the vig ( interest). Some economic historians suspect that the fed devalued the dollar overnight causing Black Tuesday, this called all stocks bought on margin to be taken back . Why? well lets say you own a large co. and you sold stock in that co. and garnered the money from the sales and lets say you want to keep the money AND get your stock back you make a margin call. But you need a reason for the call well a devalued dollar is that reason, lets also say you want to buy stock in a very profitable co., well after a crash you can pick up some great deals. If the fed had never been allowed our country would have experienced a deep depression but our money would eventually recovered and would still be based on a gold standard.

 

[Goodieluver]

That is a fantasy. They would have been better off had we not aided Saddam with various biological weapons and *removed* his regime from the U.S. list of terrorist nations 20 years ago.
Our government wants to dominate their country and take their oil. That is the only reason they give a shit. Our presence in the Middle East is flooding terrorist organizations with recruits, and has invoked strong disapproval from the majority of the Earth's population.
I never understood how someone fighting in his own country against a foreign army was an "insurgent."

If it is all about oil, why did the United states not go into south america when i believe brazil had a governmental collapse and no president\riots? Brazil is one of the top oil producin countries and there is a conglomerate of latin\south american countries, smaller but are the equivilant of OPEC. Now, wouldnt that more sense to seize control of a nation in your own hempisphere? Also, its not our presence that pissed off the Middle east, its our support of Israel that pissed off the middle east. When israel became a nation, the US jumped before everyone else to recognize them as a soverign nation. Its wording of the victors, in the civil war, people fighting to save their states were called rebels, i digress

 

[Goodieluver]

Are you saying that war is justified by economic gain?The myth that war is good for the economy is just that, a myth. Our nation has always gone into tremendous debt in every war we ever fought. Have you seen our natl. debt numbers since this war? And to top it off the dept. of defense has " misplaced" one trillion dollars in Iraq that Dumbsfeld couldn't account for to a congressional hearing. As far as oppressive laws stemming from Pearl Harbor, how about imprisoning hundreds of thousands of Japanese Americans in internment camps. As far as road improvements,etc. , the last I heard my taxes , which I've been paying ( both personally and corporate) for the past 50 years is what supplied those improvements, so don't you dare tell me to go live in a shack, kid.I served my country as a Green Beret in Vietnam when I talk about the idiocy of a war it's because I know from first hand experience that what you hear back home is diluted BS that the powers that be want you to hear.

Yes the internment camps for the Japanese, yes that was enacted but i did not refer to that because that was not a law enacted, it was a police act by the government to make sure no espionage was going on. Its a big difference, hence why i did not mention it in my origional post. There isnt some law on the books saying japanese or any asian background person needs to be watched due to the Japanese may still be sore over hiroshima So war did not bring germany out of its depression or the united states out of its depression in the 1920-45? If there was a way to avoid war then i wish it to be, but war is needed and the benefits of war outweigh the consequences. War brought us many of the technological and medical advances we have now that saves lives and war\show of force has made the world safer. Its the liberal media that reports the suicide bombings and make a point to point out every bad event that people assume its nothin but US death in Iraq. I recall when the beheadings of journalists\civilians occured, it was shown so much you'd think it was done every day when in actuality, only 3 vidoes were shown, and one was deemed a fake

 

[plumr2003]

Yes the internment camps for the Japanese, yes that was enacted but i did not refer to that because that was not a law enacted, it was a police act by the government to make sure no espionage was going on. Its a big difference, hence why i did not mention it in my origional post. There isnt some law on the books saying japanese or any asian background person needs to be watched due to the Japanese may still be sore over hiroshima So war did not bring germany out of its depression or the united states out of its depression in the 1920-45? If there was a way to avoid war then i wish it to be, but war is needed and the benefits of war outweigh the consequences. War brought us many of the technological and medical advances we have now that saves lives and war\show of force has made the world safer. Its the liberal media that reports the suicide bombings and make a point to point out every bad event that people assume its nothin but US death in Iraq. I recall when the beheadings of journalists\civilians occured, it was shown so much you'd think it was done every day when in actuality, only 3 vidoes were shown, and one was deemed a fake

Have you ever heard of Paul Harvey? you're parents probably have, he's an old conservative radio personality and he had a interesting show last year. In the show he reported that the 2000 US dead in Iraq is greatly under reported, because, if a soldier is shot in combat in country but dies in a hospital in Germany he's not considered an Iraq casulty. His sources told him the number of dead is closer to 10,000.I remember one time guarding a forward deployment base where there was a large spill of agent orange( one of your wartime inventions ). I got covered in it and the next morning my shoes had disintegrated. I was told not to worry , it was only fertilizer. Don't believe everthing you're told. Last year a Marine patrol came under sniper fire, fortunately a US blackhawk was nearby flying off mission and located the muzzle flashes coming from a particular building. With the choppers' assist they captured 19 mercs in the building. They were all private contractors ex US and Israeli special forces paid by our tax dollars firing on our troops. You had to look fast to see that in the papers cause the article was never repeated again.Truth is truth there's no liberal truth or conservative truth. But truth is hard to come by in the New World Order controlled mass media. Remember The Ministry Of Truth in George Orwell's 1984, well Orwell ( whose real name was Blair, yes tgat Blair) was a member of The Tavistock Society whose teachings espoused one world govt and one world religion.Was he trying to tell us something? Keep your mind , eyes and ears open and question auithority, it's healthy.

 

[jj82277]

was this just a case of friendly firre, or what. Was it a mistake.

and on your comments about the fed system, i understand that the corp. helped us out, but i still don't see the tie in that years later would motivate us to undertake wars to subject others unto its interests.

Margin in of itself i believe was a bad idea, and i htink that the stock market has greatly improved since then. one of hte makor problems surrounding black tuesday in the crash of 29 was that there were no or very little insider trading laws so you had greatly inflated stock prices that weren't really real, and then you had farmers investing heavily,m with mondey they didn't have, and then when it all went down, they basically had to come up with the money they never had so it was a double negative. notto mention that the firt mutual fund, pioneer, was not even invented untill 29. so i think that you had inexperienced investors that made the most fatal mistake in investing which is going with what the trend is now. I think that the advednt of the mutual fund as probably the best vehicle for the average (average meaning not having several doctorates in finance) investors in the stock market is still the single most undertaught vital fact in american schools today. (what the hell happened to punk anyway.

its funny that during that time the market was flooded with investors that drove the price of things up based on money that they never really had. kind of like everyone in the world owing tony soprano some money from that episode called bust out, but anyway to make a long story short, it will be very hard to duplicate that kind of crash in real-estate, because land generally never devalues as rapidly (or appreciates as rapidly contrary to popular myth) as equity stocks do, but i think that with the advent of all these creative financing rip offs that banks invented to in effect take peoples homes away from them will result in the coming years with interest rates at the highest and all those adjustables adjusting a real estate adjustment that will be the equivelant of the 29 stock crash (dont believe me, i live in FL, if the price of houses keeps going up 20% and salaries are only going up 3% all the interest onlies in the world are only going to get you so far before somehting has to give)

 

[Goodieluver]

Have you ever heard of Paul Harvey? you're parents probably have, he's an old conservative radio personality and he had a interesting show last year. In the show he reported that the 2000 US dead in Iraq is greatly under reported, because, if a soldier is shot in combat in country but dies in a hospital in Germany he's not considered an Iraq casulty. His sources told him the number of dead is closer to 10,000.I remember one time guarding a forward deployment base where there was a large spill of agent orange( one of your wartime inventions ). I got covered in it and the next morning my shoes had disintegrated. I was told not to worry , it was only fertilizer. Don't believe everthing you're told. Last year a Marine patrol came under sniper fire, fortunately a US blackhawk was nearby flying off mission and located the muzzle flashes coming from a particular building. With the choppers' assist they captured 19 mercs in the building. They were all private contractors ex US and Israeli special forces paid by our tax dollars firing on our troops. You had to look fast to see that in the papers cause the article was never repeated again.Truth is truth there's no liberal truth or conservative truth. But truth is hard to come by in the New World Order controlled mass media. Remember The Ministry Of Truth in George Orwell's 1984, well Orwell ( whose real name was Blair, yes tgat Blair) was a member of The Tavistock Society whose teachings espoused one world govt and one world religion.Was he trying to tell us something? Keep your mind , eyes and ears open and question auithority, it's healthy.

Im not arguing War casualties but the way the media reports it, you would think thousands are dying today and its non stop gun fire there when its not. Yes there are skirmishes and encounters and roadside bombings but it is not daily, and this is comin from someone who has a friend back from a full tour there and another who is currently serving a tour there

But my point is people feel that the news reported is false and they go to places like the independant media centre and feel that is the "Real truth" when all they do is report conspiracy and "injustices" by the republican\conservative side of government world wide. Law of averages, out of all the "bad" republicans may be doing, wheres the one story on the "Good" they have done? I know of harvey but i am not well versed of him.

The media is biased against the war effort, this is shown by plastering people cindy sheehan all over tv about her "heroic struggle" and when people protest her, you see people who are portrayed as "hicks" and when a home owner near the Bush ranch fired his gun in the air cuz he was annoyed at people on his private property, the media labled him a "Gun nut"

Never said its not unhealthy to question authority, but people feel that its their life, that even if there is nothin to question there MUST BE!

 

[august spies]

SKIP OWN FOR THE SUMMARY

I'm sorry it was late, ill try to summarize, thsi government has done a lot of things that we are not and should not be proud of. I'll give you that. But if these actions were done in the intent of protecting its citizens (this is where you and i disagree) then it doesn't really bother me. If there is someone who is breaking into my house late at night and i think he has a gun, i am going to shoot him, i will ask questions when my family is safe. I think that is what a lot of the covert actions of our government have been, not always the right choice, but for the most part is in my oppinion congruent with the best intentions of preserving this nation. even the surveilance of MLK Jr. because he was a direct advocate against the vietnam war in a time that the country was on the verge of ripping itself apart. the last thing you needed was a leader like that being coeerced by an outside force at that time in history, it didnt hurt to have a couple of people make sure his friends were okay. I was just illustrating that i am not under the illusion that our country is perfect.

..... i hear you using the word imperialist a lot. you even used the word settler doctrine. My college professors said the same thing, listening is our choice okay. we are not trying to settle iraq. Wether we were truly fighting solely for the freedom of iraq and our security is admitadly a subject that can be debated, what is not in question is that Sadamm was a pit bull that we had on a leash at one time, that was an evil bastard who bit its master one too many times. you cant make any argument, with words as long as you want that can convince me that it would have been better for the people of Iraq with him in power. you can go on and listen to the media if you want too, who are filling your head with all that negative stuff if you want, but I just see Iraqi women who never dreamed of freedom crying in the senate chamber on national TV. They are better off that we stepped in and freed them. to say that we are the ones oppressing the iraqi people is right up there with trying to say that troy (however you spell his last name) didn't catch that interception, it just defies the obvious facts. The united nations resolutions would not have had any creddability had we not acted. In my oppinion that will be the longest lasting impact of this conflict, that when the world speaks for twelve years and you don't listen that members of the international community will enforce the worlds will.

......you made the insinuation that the only people who would benefit from the war on terror were the rich, last time i checked they didnt bombe a country club, everyone in this country needs safety, and please dont play this evil rich card. the wealthy 1% of this country are allocated as follows. 1% lottery/inheritance, 5%sales people, 10%doctors/lawyers, 10% ceo's presidents, and top executives, and then finally 74% are entrepenuers. everyone in this country gets the same 24 hours to work with, the ones who are wealthy 99% of the time just used their 24 hours better than everyone else. don't play the evil rich card. the reason that you see people of affluance often associated with taking the necessary steps to spread democracy and freedom, is because to reach the plateau of wealth they had to have the balls to look failure in the eye, and try anyway (that's all that war is).

......racist, please. as an african american i hate this argument and am truly emberassed at the fact our community helps proliferate the biggest misnomer in the history of the modern american era. there is no great white conspiracy. I know kanye west says otherwise, but im sorry there isn't. I know it hurts to take full responsability for your own actions, but you have to. Once you do it's quite liberating, take it from me solets just move on. too many people shed their blood for us to get to this point for us to dwell on the spectar of an affliction long since banised from our path.


.....Ecenomic prosperity and war, come on. as i mentioned before, wars cost money, and for shouldering the burden of spreading freedom, why shouldnt we be the first to enjoy trade with the new governments that we help build. true freedom is the ability to persue financial independence. providing business oppurtunities to other countries will give poeple hope. that's why capitalism and democracy go hand in hand.


as for the anarchist position,down with the government rule of law, come on man. there will always be a need for a group to rise and lead, that's jsut the truth. and you know what they will make a lot of mistakes, and people who dont have the courage to put their name on a ballot will always be able to rip it apart and say that they should have never tried, but you we can't let that stop us from governing, or leading. It's the same with ecenomic difference, the ones who never had the courage to dilligently persue owning there own business will always have contempt for those who did and succeeded. Often times they blame the most readily available variable that might have prevented them, like racism. you feel less bad for not achieving your dreams when you are under the dillusion that a force of white men are the ones keepin ya down cuz (90%-10% democrat republican in voting because of that. that is in statistics what we call a misnomer. that means that this demographic has a whole nother set of issues it considers (the spectar of racism) than the rest of the demographics that never get any more lop sidded than 65-35 for single women 'abortion'.)

SKIP HERE FOR THE SUMMARY: In short we're not perfect, but we are hardly imperialist either, no matter what college teachers say. There is nowhite conspiracy, and Kanye is just going to have to deal with that. we are always going to have a need for government sir, and you just have to understand that as long as there will be men there will be mistakes and bad stuff, but you hae to take the flees with the dog, just make sure its a good dog. The rich are the rich because they are not lazy, that is why they are at the forefront of most of the initiatives in this country (it's because they are predisposed to getting off their ass and doing what is necessary.)

finally i leave with a few questions punk, you have done extensive research on some of the dirty spots in this countries covert past, what is an IRA (roth and traditional)? what is the rule of 72? and what is the average rate of return for the stock market? and what is the average rate of return for a growth mutual fund sincee 1929?

its ok your summery is much better.

Good so you agree those things were (and are) bad. Now what i have been trying to get you to do is explain why you believe they were done to benifit you and me. anyone can just say that. i can just say "bush is hitler" without backing it up. back up you statements, how do all those horrible things i showed you make you and me safe? i can tell you how they make people rich (and i think i did>?)

and for the sake of reality, Dr. King, was not bein "coerced" by an outside force, the us government perpatrating the imperialist massacre was a domestic force

I dont remember saying we were trying to settle in iraq but i may have been talking about palestine. however what heck, the us is planning to settle in iraq. its building a massive mutli billion dollar command embassy and building permanet large scale military facilities.

I dont have to make the argument about saddam, your allies in iraq, ie allawi, have already stated repression is just as bad now as it is under saddam. people are also dying of sickness and are lacking basic necessities that were available before the war. im not saying saddam was good, he was horrible, and most of his horror was supported by bush. but now that hes gone the us has to leave. and the us is opressing iraqis, war is opression, torture is opression, arbitrary house demolitions, invasions, arrests, censorship, etc.. are all forms of opression.

absolutley the only ones who benifit are the rich, thats why they are leading the "fight". this is not something new to history. war profiteers have an immense influence on government actions. your idea that all people start off on a level playing field and can become rich if they want to is a bit ridiculous.

i dont remember what i said about racism, but this is still one of the most racist countries on the face of the earth.

capitalism is anti democratic by nature. corporations are totalitarian institutions. and most of the political democracy that was crushed in the past 50 or so years was as a result of capitalist pressure.

im not sure im understanding what your saying about anarchism, but if you say they are not courageous you need to know your history. im reminded of a story about a russian anarchist woman who came to the states as a child. she was arressted for passing out leaflets against ww1 and was sentenced to prison where her comrades were tortured, she was then deported to russia and was again arressted and tortured, she then was arressted by the nazis and sent to a concentration camp in which she escaped and made it to a free part of france.

most college teachers dont teach much about imperialism, but i dont need to hear it from them, its in the history. america has been one of the most imperialist countries on the face of the earth.

what is the ira? a republican movement in ireland dedicated to fight british imperialism

 

[august spies]

HARDLY, what are you considering plitical and economic DOMINATION. it sounds god on paper, but are you actually saying that the human rights and the economic evelopment of the iraqi people would have been better off under Sadamm. I hope that you are kidding. Thooe peopele are going to benefit from having the ability to develop their own democratic government, our continued presence serves only as security to protect those that speak out for democracy from those who oppose it, not to clolonize there sir.

as for economic diomination, those poeple are going to be a free country, with a valuable naitonal resource. they are going to be able to deveop free trade relations with differnt countries, and us as well, (i dont appologize for that). There will be virtually unlimited business oppurtunities for the iraqi people as their democracy rises, and i don't mind the fact that our own economy will benefit from the new democracy that we helped father. I know what you are thinking, and i used to watch CNN too, but i was able to quit. I'm sorry to break it to you, but they are voting in a higher frequency than we do, and they are under a great threat of terror, they appreciate their new found freeedom, and we will not be forgotten when the oil starts flowing; in short we're winning, im sorry. FOX NEWS, this is where the healing begins.

WE WANT HANNITY!@ lol

well first off i dont watch cnn, and the only difference between cnn and fox is the level of stupidity fox will stupe to make the same point.

you totally missed the point about terrorism, people push back, its that simple. its one thing about human nature im sure about.

how are "we" winning? how do you judge that? by the level of terrorism? will its on the rise about what? 100% since the war?

 

[august spies]

If it is all about oil, why did the United states not go into south america when i believe brazil had a governmental collapse and no president\riots? Brazil is one of the top oil producin countries and there is a conglomerate of latin\south american countries, smaller but are the equivilant of OPEC. Now, wouldnt that more sense to seize control of a nation in your own hempisphere? Also, its not our presence that pissed off the Middle east, its our support of Israel that pissed off the middle east. When israel became a nation, the US jumped before everyone else to recognize them as a soverign nation. Its wording of the victors, in the civil war, people fighting to save their states were called rebels, i digress

its not all about oil, its mostly about oil.

the united states has gone into latin america 50 times in the past 100years. ill assume your talking of argentina, but the us played a major role in the overthrow of the brazilian democracy under jao goulart, because he wasnt "towing the party line" the police and torture state the us helped create there is still evident today in the corruption and violence of the brazilian police.

this nation had an almost total control of latin america, it started to slip a bit in the late 60s early 70s in some places, but those democracies were quickly replaced with torture states (chile, brazil). now they are starting to slip away again, (boliva, venuzeula, uruguay) and because the us is overextended in the middle east they are not as heavily involved (thank god) as they were before. They tried the coup in venuzeula but it didnt work.

Off course its our presence in the middle east, one of the first blatent things this country did was overthrown the first and last democratic government in iran in 1953 (look up operation ajax), the sanctions on iraq killed by conservative estimates half a million children under the age of 5 and when the secratary of state is asked about it her response was "its worth it". the us supports the sauid monarchy, how reactionary can you get, it supports mostly dictators in the region. this does not make people happy.

and of course israel is a big part of it, but i hate to break it to you, israeli opression is seen as us opression because it is. israel could not be starting wars and settling the west bank if it were not for the support of the us tax payer. some 6billion dollars a year (btw 6million people starved to death last year)

 

[august spies]

Im not arguing War casualties but the way the media reports it, you would think thousands are dying today and its non stop gun fire there when its not. Yes there are skirmishes and encounters and roadside bombings but it is not daily, and this is comin from someone who has a friend back from a full tour there and another who is currently serving a tour there

But my point is people feel that the news reported is false and they go to places like the independant media centre and feel that is the "Real truth" when all they do is report conspiracy and "injustices" by the republican\conservative side of government world wide. Law of averages, out of all the "bad" republicans may be doing, wheres the one story on the "Good" they have done? I know of harvey but i am not well versed of him.

The media is biased against the war effort, this is shown by plastering people cindy sheehan all over tv about her "heroic struggle" and when people protest her, you see people who are portrayed as "hicks" and when a home owner near the Bush ranch fired his gun in the air cuz he was annoyed at people on his private property, the media labled him a "Gun nut"

Never said its not unhealthy to question authority, but people feel that its their life, that even if there is nothin to question there MUST BE!

no thousands are not dying 100,000 people did. and dude i think even the pentagon admits that troops are attacked a dozen plus times per day.

to say the media is "biased" against the war is a bit loony. most of the stuff i saw abou cindy on tv was slandering her. and i think war critics although they are a majority are usually outnumber in the news by 10/1 but the military, government, or right wing mouthpieces like oriely, scarboro, etc. etc... not to mention the news never reports on what war is like for ordinary iraqis and give no history analysis of the situation.

i think indymedia.org is a great source for information that not biased like the corporate media. i have never seen them report a "conspiracy" please show me where they have.

 

[jj82277]

1.) since as l9ong as i have been alive and long since before, the capitalist system has been synonymous with the democratic process. to say otherwise is to embrace men such as stalin, If you would liked to have lived under his system go ahead.

2.) apperantly when you were baking the cookies for the meeting tonight you forgot to explain some basic common sense about certain actions in this countries history,
a.) MLK his surveilance was to ensure that he wasn' being influenced by commmunists, he wasn't i know that. But at a time when the country was facing its most devisive foriegn war, having a major political figure speak out against it it was in the best interest of national security that we insure that he wasnt being coerced.

3.) the Iraqi war initiative-The UN has had resolutions on the floor for more than the past decade calling for this inhumane madman to change, relinquish power, or be subject to the will of the planet. for no other purpose than to spur the rest of the world and give the global community credability as a whole was