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jj82277 said:
1.) since as l9ong as i have been alive and long since before, the capitalist system has been synonymous with the democratic process. to say otherwise is to embrace men such as stalin, If you would liked to have lived under his system go ahead.

2.) apperantly when you were baking the cookies for the meeting tonight you forgot to explain some basic common sense about certain actions in this countries history,
a.) MLK his surveilance was to ensure that he wasn' being influenced by commmunists, he wasn't i know that. But at a time when the country was facing its most devisive foriegn war, having a major political figure speak out against it it was in the best interest of national security that we insure that he wasnt being coerced.

3.) the Iraqi war initiative-The UN has had resolutions on the floor for more than the past decade calling for this inhumane madman to change, relinquish power, or be subject to the will of the planet. for no other purpose than to spur the rest of the world and give the global community credability as a whole was


1) first off i do not have to choose between stalin or bush, both of whom function quite similar in my opinion. anyone can just say were capitalism and democracy together in slavery? how about when capitalism divided up and took over africa? how about when capitalists from belgium murdered 10million congolese for their resources, how about when capitalists overthrown the democratic governments of guatamala, iran, haiti, brazil, congo, venuzeula, the list goes on.

2) you still didnt answer my question, look at that list in the torture discussion i posted and explain to me how any of those horrific things had anything to do with your or my "security". they spied on mlk because he was against the war and he was begining to take up the cause of poor people. hoover was also a racist. why do you think the fbi sent tapes of king having sex to his wife? what does that have to do with "communism"? not a damn thing. it has to do with discrediting and terroizing threats to capitalist power

3)try this point again i dont get what your saying
 
in the best interest of the world as we moive forward. as our troops gatheed preparing for their attack international talks with North Korea Started, several terrorist regimes voluntarily disarmed, and most of the members of radical terrorist groups instead of getting on a plane with a bomb strapped to their chest, are now overseas fighting the well trained men and women of this country that signed up to protect this nation against her enemies of their own free will. all of which have kept us safe.

4.)i didn't totally miss your point on terrorism, it is actually a very estute and articulate argument. what you missed is the fact that contrary to popular belief, we are not pushing the iraqi people. the number of people participating in their democratic process is beyond our wildest dreams. we have iraqi women crying tears of joy in the arms of freedom on the senate floor for God Sake. in the deliverance of a child blood is always shed of the mother, so goith the birth of a free nation.


5.)the idea that we are all given the same opurtunity at birth is the foundation that this country was built on. are you telling me that you don't deserve the same amount of reward that other ppeople in this country get, or that im not. don't sell yourself that short. there are countless cases of people scraping their way across the globe to get here, with no more than pennies in thier pocket and ascending to wealth beyond their wildest dreams , how dare you belittle the american dream like that. Bill Gates was a college drop out that most people now agree wrote a horrible program for an operating system and is now the richest man in the world. oprah winfrey, a child raped and molested deprived of her innosence one of the richest women in the sorld. I could go on. you apperantly missed mi statisticall break down of the wealth in this country. 74% of the wealthy is distributeed with virtually no reguard to educational background. this is the land of oppurtunity. people risk their lives everyday just to come here. The real problem is that in school they don't teach people the really great things about this country. they spend too much time in social studies making people think that someone really went to war for them to get a J.O.B. and say bad things about the president in their e-mails. but you know what now that i think about it you're right, their will never be an equall playing field. It will always be tilted to the ones who know its an even playing field. Think about that one.

I am so sad for you that you can not see the beauty of the picture that is this country for the slight imperfections that are the turmoil of our past.
 
and oh yeh by the war, that was a funny quip, but i wasn't talking about that IRA i was reffering to the retirement options that the government offers in the tax code. I am still very very interested to see what your knowledge level is on that.

true freedom exists in financial independence. if your not persuing that, then its like playing football with not end zone, ofcourse you would just know that hitting someone hurts, and you wouldnt know why.
 
punk said:
its not all about oil, its mostly about oil.

the united states has gone into latin america 50 times in the past 100years. ill assume your talking of argentina, but the us played a major role in the overthrow of the brazilian democracy under jao goulart, because he wasnt "towing the party line" the police and torture state the us helped create there is still evident today in the corruption and violence of the brazilian police.

this nation had an almost total control of latin america, it started to slip a bit in the late 60s early 70s in some places, but those democracies were quickly replaced with torture states (chile, brazil). now they are starting to slip away again, (boliva, venuzeula, uruguay) and because the us is overextended in the middle east they are not as heavily involved (thank god) as they were before. They tried the coup in venuzeula but it didnt work.

Off course its our presence in the middle east, one of the first blatent things this country did was overthrown the first and last democratic government in iran in 1953 (look up operation ajax), the sanctions on iraq killed by conservative estimates half a million children under the age of 5 and when the secratary of state is asked about it her response was "its worth it". the us supports the sauid monarchy, how reactionary can you get, it supports mostly dictators in the region. this does not make people happy.

and of course israel is a big part of it, but i hate to break it to you, israeli opression is seen as us opression because it is. israel could not be starting wars and settling the west bank if it were not for the support of the us tax payer. some 6billion dollars a year (btw 6million people starved to death last year)


We support allies, what more you want me to say. Also, the only group to impose sanctions that would severely devestate a nation is the UN, who imposed the sanctions on Iraq thru 2 conservative presidents and one liberal. Recently Osama has proclaimed that for peace that the US must be out of the Holy land, well what is the holy land, who are they decide its theirs? These are also fundamentalists who believe the hallocaust either didnt exist or did some benefit to the world. Government is not the problem, religious fanaticalism on all sides is the problem.
 
punk said:
no thousands are not dying 100,000 people did. and dude i think even the pentagon admits that troops are attacked a dozen plus times per day.

to say the media is "biased" against the war is a bit loony. most of the stuff i saw abou cindy on tv was slandering her. and i think war critics although they are a majority are usually outnumber in the news by 10/1 but the military, government, or right wing mouthpieces like oriely, scarboro, etc. etc... not to mention the news never reports on what war is like for ordinary iraqis and give no history analysis of the situation.

i think indymedia.org is a great source for information that not biased like the corporate media. i have never seen them report a "conspiracy" please show me where they have.


My question to you is this, WHAT MAKES INDY MEDIA TRUE? What makes it different from say cnn or fox news or whatnot? You have one group reporting news to support their stance and another reporting the opposing stance. Because its biased against the mainstream biased does not make it correct by default.

I ask you what source you use for this 100,000 death count, unless you are counting iraqi and US deaths, because from sources online, which some credit the british ministry of defense and US dept of defense, the american death toll ranges from 2222 to 48,000. Bear in mind as well this war has been going on since 2003. Point is you dont know, nobody knows but the famlies who lost their loved ones. Now i havent seen marches that numbed in the hundreds of thousands of war family victims outcrying the war, so unless you are personally counting the dog tags, you dont know how many deaths have occured in iraq. Even the famed BBC and other British media who are claimed to be far better than american news, states that the death count is inflated.
 
punk said:
1) first off i do not have to choose between stalin or bush, both of whom function quite similar in my opinion. anyone can just say were capitalism and democracy together in slavery? how about when capitalism divided up and took over africa? how about when capitalists from belgium murdered 10million congolese for their resources, how about when capitalists overthrown the democratic governments of guatamala, iran, haiti, brazil, congo, venuzeula, the list goes on.

2) you still didnt answer my question, look at that list in the torture discussion i posted and explain to me how any of those horrific things had anything to do with your or my "security". they spied on mlk because he was against the war and he was begining to take up the cause of poor people. hoover was also a racist. why do you think the fbi sent tapes of king having sex to his wife? what does that have to do with "communism"? not a damn thing. it has to do with discrediting and terroizing threats to capitalist power

3)try this point again i dont get what your saying

1, Since your so intent on bitching about the faults every governmental base has done, with the "Rape of africa" and the colonization of the world, etc etc tripe, tell me what anarchist nation\government has formed, thrived and survived, you wont find any, so what does that tell u?(oh wait, the evil democracy and capitalist pigs crushed it) Here i can target your belief structure too, how about incidents like the haymarket riot, where a protest was going on, when anarchist radicals decided to join in and ended up throwing a bomb, killing one or more police officers....but then again i suppose thats a conspiracy.....the global conspiracy right, maybe you wanna discuss the paris commune, which resulted in the deaths of many people, including elected officials, off with heads is sure fire good way of government\justice.

Or maybe we can state the spanish revolutions facts and how that it was backed by nazi\soviet endorsers, lets just keep naming every form of government and person in the world and how its bad while we're at it

2. about terrorizing threats and capitalist power, what does armed revolting against a people majorly apposed to it have to do with voluntary government?
 
punk said:
its not all about oil, its mostly about oil.

the united states has gone into latin america 50 times in the past 100years. ill assume your talking of argentina, but the us played a major role in the overthrow of the brazilian democracy under jao goulart, because he wasnt "towing the party line" the police and torture state the us helped create there is still evident today in the corruption and violence of the brazilian police.

It was also US meddling in Latin America (Honduras, Nicaragua) that led to our govt rejecting the jurisdiction of the world court, which found the US guilty.
 
goodieluver said:
If it is all about oil, why did the United states not go into south america when i believe brazil had a governmental collapse and no president\riots? Brazil is one of the top oil producin countries and there is a conglomerate of latin\south american countries, smaller but are the equivilant of OPEC. Now, wouldnt that more sense to seize control of a nation in your own hempisphere? Also, its not our presence that pissed off the Middle east, its our support of Israel that pissed off the middle east. When israel became a nation, the US jumped before everyone else to recognize them as a soverign nation. Its wording of the victors, in the civil war, people fighting to save their states were called rebels, i digress

Is there another reason they would go into Afghanistan and Iraq and ignore the rest of the world? As far as South America, we worked on them 20 years ago. The US was officially forgiven by the Honduran government just in the last few years.
I agree it is primarily through Israel that our country has annoyed the Middle East. Although, we have been dropping bombs in Iraq pretty much since Desert Storm. Regarding Israel, check the list of U.N resolutions against Israel that have gone unheeded and unenforced, and the separate list of resolutions that the U.S. prevented from being passed, including Security Council resolutions. Easy enough to find, not hidden information. Also easy to find is lists of countries with nuclear weapons. Israel has never acknowledged having them, but there is at least as much evidence as there was against Iraq. Maybe they're not crazy like Saddam, but if they've been bullying Arabs and getting away with it, as the UN seems to think, it's not unreasonable for their neghbors to be concerned about them having nukes.
 
do you haave any idea the amount of information that was found in that country that they don't know about. i mean they were finding cds with blueprints for american schools for god Sake. noone likes to talk about the dirty work that goes into byuilding something, but if it saved my kids life for someone to be put through a horrific instance because he was captured on the field of combat, is a threat to our country, and may have information about plans to hurt thousands of American Children then so be it. The place that i draw the line between us and other institutions is that there was no clear cut seeking for information. Sadamm just ran torture chambers. While this annalogy may seem strange, in the post i made about the movie hostel, there are a lot of people who would get a kick out of that. I think that we have had a justified means for creative interrogation other than just serving the sadistic purposes of our troops. If i knew for a fact that there was a bomb about to go off in my kids chool and i knew you knew where it was and how to disarm it, GOD help you.

And one thing that i think you missed, is the distinction between the institution of Capitalism, and the greed of men. First off, Capitalism in of itself is a perfect idea, which truly does not exist, it calls for an infinite level of competition, and right now in America there is only about 20%participation in the capitalist process, which makes it even easier for entrepeneurs to succeed. the version of capitalism that we serve today in my oppinion is the best form of economic structure because it provides every person to be rewarded on the sum totall of thier efforts. anyone can decide to be a business owner, in the other two economic models, the government is either the chooser of who can be business owners, or the business owner in of itself. you ask the question if capitalism and slavery were together. I ask where the past tense came from. in my oppoinion after the slaves were released there was a unilateral switch to indentured servitude in this country. today we call it employees. And this system is alive and well. The contrast is that in slavery the lowerclass of blacks had no choice of self determination. they were just brought over on ships and made to be slaves. now over the course of ones lifetime, it is all based on the choices you make, wether you like it or not. It is my personall oppinion that untill you are self employed or own your own business most of the true freedoms this country offers you don't even know about. Capitalism as a system works, the only thing that leads to moral enomolies like slavery, or the sale of tabacco or other things that are bad is the fact that you are dealing with Human beings, which brings me back to how eroneous anarchist theory is.

In my oppinion, anarchy would be the abolition of the institutions that surround the natural moral ideas that govern man. That is because it is the liberal ideal that if you take a pure idela and surround it by an institution that you will crush the idea, and i say that that is incomplete. The idea, and the intent of the institution are pure, but the people sho perform the action are not, and inevidably will make mistaked, because mans nature since the fall has been evil.

The only thing that you can do is that when picking leaders decide on those that have a true conviction in doing what is right and in the best interest of the people. Now everyone may not like the way that they go about it, and a lot of the decisions may be wrong, but when living in a world of lions and men, it is my oppinion that you can only look at a mans intent when doing a thing. If you recall in my past posts al my analysis of historical figures has been on what i believe to be their true intention, and not the pitfalls that they have made along the way. 6 years ago, I weaped when thsi president was elected, because thanks to the public school system i was brainwashed into thinking that he would somehow surpress me because i was black. Only through the recognition of his true conviction to do what he honestly believed was the right thing for this country did i choose 4 years later to embrace him so readily.

and no one has yet to answer my question on the Roth IRA do i have to offer a cash reward. okay 1$ per answer of my three part retirement question.
 
goodieluver said:
Im not arguing War casualties but the way the media reports it, you would think thousands are dying today and its non stop gun fire there when its not. Yes there are skirmishes and encounters and roadside bombings but it is not daily, and this is comin from someone who has a friend back from a full tour there and another who is currently serving a tour there

But my point is people feel that the news reported is false and they go to places like the independant media centre and feel that is the "Real truth" when all they do is report conspiracy and "injustices" by the republican\conservative side of government world wide. Law of averages, out of all the "bad" republicans may be doing, wheres the one story on the "Good" they have done? I know of harvey but i am not well versed of him.

The media is biased against the war effort, this is shown by plastering people cindy sheehan all over tv about her "heroic struggle" and when people protest her, you see people who are portrayed as "hicks" and when a home owner near the Bush ranch fired his gun in the air cuz he was annoyed at people on his private property, the media labled him a "Gun nut"

Never said its not unhealthy to question authority, but people feel that its their life, that even if there is nothin to question there MUST BE!
If you find yourself on a internet site that is constantly bashing republicans then it's not a news site it's a propaganda site. There are sites that stay above the political fray and report both sides fairly ( no fox news is not one of them ). Republican Sen Ron Paul has a great site, if this man ever runs for president he's got my vote. Even with my cynical view of politics I still find myself more a conservative than a liberal. Both parties in the US are highly compromised , in my opinion. The last election showed us two candidates who were members of a satanic club ( Scull and Bones ) in college and both attend the highly secretive occult yearly meetings at Bohemian Grove and then have the nerve to espouse Christian ideals!! Read The Franklin Coverup by John DeCamp. He was a highly decorated Viet vet and a Republican state senator who was asked by the rep. hierarchy to investigate child molestation charges against high ranking pols.He was very sceptical ( this was during Bush 1) but he wound up believing the kids and after two of his private investigators wound up dead and a warning from his friend William Colby ( head of the CIA) he won a one millionn dollar judgement against a major player in the party. The headlines should have blared this if they were truely left wing but there was no coverage worth mentioning. Remember Colby was found floating in the Cheseepeak Bay ( even though he was a Naval Officer and accomplished swimmer) shortly thereafter. Like FDR said in a rare patriotic moment " there are no coincidences in politics".
 
One more point to make about the condition of the economy after ww11. Yes there were jobs for the returning vets from the war which opened up many employment opportunities. But the reason is simple. The economy was in a shambles before the war with many unemployed, then Pearl Harber was allowed to happen and many of those unemployed young men marched off to war. After the war of course there were far , far fewer young men returning , as is want in all wars. This opened up the job ops for those lucky enough to make it back and there we have it another benefit of war.
 
Well let's say it was inevitable , I have 3 questions that I've never understood. We'll make it two, let's ignore Adm.Forrestall's family's acqusations that after learning that FDR and the naval brass knew abuot Pearl Harbor 2 weeks in advance and that FDR had him placed under house arrest untill Dec. 8. So now I have two: since the Japanese attacked us and simultaniously captured 10,000 American soldiers in the Philipines why did we let those pow's stay in Jap control for 4 years. Second question: why in the middle of the war when Hess flew to England asking to speak to Churchill was he instead jailed in Scotland for the duration of his life. He was imprisoned in a remote prison where he died a few years ago, never allowed any visitors and in fact he was the ONLY prisoner in the entire complex. What were they so afraid we might find out?Could the bloodbath on D-Day have been avoided? I have trouble wrapping my head around illogical deeds, it makes me thirsty for understanding.
 
jj82277 said:
in the best interest of the world as we moive forward. as our troops gatheed preparing for their attack international talks with North Korea Started, several terrorist regimes voluntarily disarmed, and most of the members of radical terrorist groups instead of getting on a plane with a bomb strapped to their chest, are now overseas fighting the well trained men and women of this country that signed up to protect this nation against her enemies of their own free will. all of which have kept us safe.

4.)i didn't totally miss your point on terrorism, it is actually a very estute and articulate argument. what you missed is the fact that contrary to popular belief, we are not pushing the iraqi people. the number of people participating in their democratic process is beyond our wildest dreams. we have iraqi women crying tears of joy in the arms of freedom on the senate floor for God Sake. in the deliverance of a child blood is always shed of the mother, so goith the birth of a free nation.


5.)the idea that we are all given the same opurtunity at birth is the foundation that this country was built on. are you telling me that you don't deserve the same amount of reward that other ppeople in this country get, or that im not. don't sell yourself that short. there are countless cases of people scraping their way across the globe to get here, with no more than pennies in thier pocket and ascending to wealth beyond their wildest dreams , how dare you belittle the american dream like that. Bill Gates was a college drop out that most people now agree wrote a horrible program for an operating system and is now the richest man in the world. oprah winfrey, a child raped and molested deprived of her innosence one of the richest women in the sorld. I could go on. you apperantly missed mi statisticall break down of the wealth in this country. 74% of the wealthy is distributeed with virtually no reguard to educational background. this is the land of oppurtunity. people risk their lives everyday just to come here. The real problem is that in school they don't teach people the really great things about this country. they spend too much time in social studies making people think that someone really went to war for them to get a J.O.B. and say bad things about the president in their e-mails. but you know what now that i think about it you're right, their will never be an equall playing field. It will always be tilted to the ones who know its an even playing field. Think about that one.

I am so sad for you that you can not see the beauty of the picture that is this country for the slight imperfections that are the turmoil of our past.


4) you are doing much more than push the iraqi people, you are occupying them with a foriegn military force of 100,000+ armed men. you arbitrarily imprison them, torture them, and censor them. the country is bombed on a daily basis and 100,000 iraqis have been killed as a result of your war. that is massive. and it is not just iraq that is causing the terrorism that you are familiar with. it is us support for autocratic regimes all over the region and it is also us blind support in the billions of dollars for israeli expansion and crimes. So to not agree with my piont, is to say that all of this is irrelavant to terrorism and that it happens in a vacuum.

5)it may be the propaganda foundation, but its not the reality.
 
goodieluver said:
We support allies, what more you want me to say. Also, the only group to impose sanctions that would severely devestate a nation is the UN, who imposed the sanctions on Iraq thru 2 conservative presidents and one liberal. Recently Osama has proclaimed that for peace that the US must be out of the Holy land, well what is the holy land, who are they decide its theirs? These are also fundamentalists who believe the hallocaust either didnt exist or did some benefit to the world. Government is not the problem, religious fanaticalism on all sides is the problem.

that many times your allies are fascists, murderers, and tortures who serve no purpose other than to enrich and empower the already rich and powerful and place us and the world in harms way.

your right the UN under british and us domination imposed the sanctions, which has caused more resignations from the un than anything else in history do to the genocidal results directed at the young and sick. by the"holy land" he means mecca and medina, ie saudi arabia. he wants the us to stop supported the monarchy. and frankly i dont care what he says, the issue is that its the right thing to do, and quite honestly if the us stops helping to and stops directly opressing people in that region, osama can kiss his support base goodbye.

both government and religious fanatacism are the problem, most religious fanatacism is created because of government. in case you forgot the cia spent around 8billion dollars to spur the growth of religious fantacism, even israel funded hamas to counterbalance the seculars. now fanatacism feeds off western opression because the secular left has been marginalized. buts not dead and i think its our only way out of this mess.
 
goodieluver said:
My question to you is this, WHAT MAKES INDY MEDIA TRUE? What makes it different from say cnn or fox news or whatnot? You have one group reporting news to support their stance and another reporting the opposing stance. Because its biased against the mainstream biased does not make it correct by default.

I ask you what source you use for this 100,000 death count, unless you are counting iraqi and US deaths, because from sources online, which some credit the british ministry of defense and US dept of defense, the american death toll ranges from 2222 to 48,000. Bear in mind as well this war has been going on since 2003. Point is you dont know, nobody knows but the famlies who lost their loved ones. Now i havent seen marches that numbed in the hundreds of thousands of war family victims outcrying the war, so unless you are personally counting the dog tags, you dont know how many deaths have occured in iraq. Even the famed BBC and other British media who are claimed to be far better than american news, states that the death count is inflated.


the question is, what makes it false? it has never been accused of providing false news, and if it did they could be sued. they have journalist credentials.

What makes it different than corporate media? what they focus on and the absense of mindless tabliod news.

the source for the 100,000 is actually the same source bush used to tally the death in sudan. it was tabulated by the lancent medical journal (a very old and respected professional source).
 
goodieluver said:
1, Since your so intent on bitching about the faults every governmental base has done, with the "Rape of africa" and the colonization of the world, etc etc tripe, tell me what anarchist nation\government has formed, thrived and survived, you wont find any, so what does that tell u?(oh wait, the evil democracy and capitalist pigs crushed it) Here i can target your belief structure too, how about incidents like the haymarket riot, where a protest was going on, when anarchist radicals decided to join in and ended up throwing a bomb, killing one or more police officers....but then again i suppose thats a conspiracy.....the global conspiracy right, maybe you wanna discuss the paris commune, which resulted in the deaths of many people, including elected officials, off with heads is sure fire good way of government\justice.

Or maybe we can state the spanish revolutions facts and how that it was backed by nazi\soviet endorsers, lets just keep naming every form of government and person in the world and how its bad while we're at it

2. about terrorizing threats and capitalist power, what does armed revolting against a people majorly apposed to it have to do with voluntary government?

i dont think you would put the nazi holocaust in quotations, so you can take rape of africa out of quotations when you speak. in the congo alone the belgians killed more people than the nazis did in the holocaust. this is not "tripe"

anarchists "governments" dont form. anarchists are opposed to the government and other illigit authority. there have been many anarchists movements and revolutions, that as you said were crushed by brute force.

now that you are dealing with a history student i need to correct your history.

the haymarket protest was not something that "anarchist radicals decided to join in" the anarchist movement in chicago was massive at that time period and the protest was called for and created by the anarchists in response to the previous days murder of striking workers by the police. the police decided to break up the protest, which was peacefull, after it was almost over. thats when someone, and no one knows who yet, threw a bomb to stop the advancing police. it wounded one officer in the leg who later died as a result, but the rest of the officers were shot by their own men and many workers were killed by the police (including the brother of a famous anarchist). but the real tragedy happend after, when the government arressted the most popular anarchists and executed them just for their political beliefs (one of whom was having a beer down the street when the incident at haymarket took place).

as for the paris commune, the death came after the government broke it up, thousands of civilians were massacred by the state. the commune itself, which had a strong anarchist influence, functions quite well. you dont have to do massive research, just read the wikipedia article to find out more information.

as for spain, which held the largest and most sucessful anarchist revolution, yes it was crushed by the nazis and satlinists. but it was functioning quite well.

i dont see how this "attacks my belief structure" if anything it affirms it.
 
i dont know if you missed it punk, but goodie is a histroy student too. and i could tell by your regergetative rethoric that you were being instructed by the ultraintellectuals that could not succeeed in the private sector, and instead chose to burden society by corrupting captive audiences in our nations colleges.

Saying that we are occupying Iraq is like saying France was occupying the United States durintg the revolutionary war. I can see that you and your professors are too busy seeing which historical words like imperialism, and facism, will fit in current affairs so that you will sound better at cocktail parties other than take a long hard look at the sentiment of a people that have been overwhelmed by freedom. 50 years from now when this country is reaping the seeds that they young men and women of this country are sewing now, i have the utmost faith and confidence that the ludacy of your arguments will be fully demonstrated as the silent rebelious minority that is the anarchist movement.

and by the way, the root cause of terrorism is the lack of democratic expression. Only when someone feels as though they have no other recourse do they strap a bomb to their chest and blow someone up. If they are unhappy with policies most normal people just vote to change a countries policies, only when that outlet is not allowed do people generally resort to violent forms of expression. the only long term soluion to terrorism is to spread the seed of democracy. its like running the ball in football in order to throw deep, it doesn;t seem like the two are related, but all the good coaches now how intertwined they are.
 
Last year was another instrumental year in the advance of world government. While most commentators will concentrate on popularized events, many will not discuss the latest steps taken to cement the final touches to a world governmental structure that has been in the making for the last 150 years or so. In order to understand the importance of 2005's global achievements in the march towards global governance which is the integration of the world's peoples, countries, and philosophies, we must briefly visit the past.

Let us re-count the 1913 birth of the U.S. tax code. Over the past 92 years, the burden of taxation has been shifted from the highest income tax to the middle class as income tax rates under Ronald Reagan dropped from 60% to 35%. That same year, the Federal Reserve Act was passed. What this meant is that a private corporation, the Federal Reserve, now manages the monetary and financial system of the United States of America. As such, they have greater power than our president and Congress as they control the banking system and the country's business cycle.

You will remember that the purpose of the Federal Reserve was to eliminate the ups and downs of the business cycle. However, the country has not experienced that as it appears that the Fed has embraced Joseph Schumpeter's theory of creative destruction which is based on the boom/bust business cycle (Joseph Schumpeter, Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy, 1942, p.83). Will the American people ever figure out that the reason why we cannot forgive ourselves the interest on the national debt is because we owe it to a private corporation and they want what the interest which Congress originally agreed to when they passed the Federal Reserve Act. If you want to know where they get their money to lend to our government-they print it!

Beginning in 1944, the walls between the nation-states began to fall as a new international infrastructure was set in place above the nation-states. One fine example of this was the United States signing in 1947 the General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs which became the World Trade Organization in 1994. With the birth of the International Monetary Fund/World Bank, the financial and economic barriers fell, with the birth of the United Nations, the political barriers fell, with the birth of the World Trade Organization, the trade barriers fell, with the birth of the International Criminal Court, the legal barriers fell, and as a result of 9/11, military and intelligence barriers fell between the nation-states. Thus today, we are in a borderless world.

In 1971, President Richard Nixon, issued Executive Order No. 11647 which divided the United States into ten regions, each with its own administrator who then reports directly to the president. Described as "metro government" or "regional government", it decreases the lines of power and authority which centralizes all the decision-making in the White House. Today, Metro or Regional Government is alive and well as it is being given greater position not only in all of the new rebuilding of the new development plans being made public by Mississippi and New Orleans, but with many states trying to pass laws to consolidate the local, county, and village levels of government. Furthermore, our government has circumvented the power of the states by now taking the funds the states send them and re-distributing it to the metro or regional government instead! Many of the infrastructure needs such as transportation, waste, water, etc. are all on a "regional" basis.

In 1990, Prince Charles, Prince of Wales put together a new organization, the Prince of Wales International Business Leaders' Forum, with the purpose of setting up public-private partnerships-PPP between governments, business, and non-governmental organizations. Basically, public-private partnerships provide a way for corporations to become "co-managers" with government regarding the governance of the country. The Prince admitted in a speech while he was in the United States that he met with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to see if business and government could work together. What came out of their discussions was the U.N. Global Compact.

Today, thousands of public-private partnerships are operating world-wide and are now commonplace. They include partnerships for schools, sewer systems, transportation, water, utilities, etc. In fact the proposed Trans Texas Corridor will be a PPP. At the 2002 World Summit for Sustainable Development, over 250 PPP's were formed-that activity was unprecedented. One is the Congo Basin Forest Partnership which involves 14 governments, including the U.S. and 8 African countries, 8 environmental groups like the World Wildlife Fund along with the American Forest and Paper Association which represents 200 companies. This partnership includes 74 million acres of land in Africa. Furthermore, there are dozens of these types of complex partnerships that the U.S. has entered into that include countries around the world.

In 1992, the UN held the "Rio Earth Summit" in which those attending, which numbered less than 30,000, agreed to Agenda 21 which is a complete reordering of the planet. It basically elevates the earth above the value of man as man's value is dependent on if he or she can produce. It basically says that the earth's resources need to be counted, controlled, and monitored for "future generations." Fifteen years later, every country in the world has changed how their government operates as sustainable development is carried out worldwide. One of the treaties encompassed in Agenda 21 is the UN Biological Diversity Treaty which says man has to be sequestered into "growth areas" so that the rest of the country can be put back for the purpose of re-wilding or allowing animals to roam freely.

In 2000, the United Nations was given an overhaul in which more power was given to the Secretary-General and the General Assembly. It was also given the ability to have its own rapid defense force. Furthermore, it was given the ability to raise its own finances through various schemes to be determined in the future. Lastly, the UN unveiled the Millennium Development Goals to reduce poverty, hunger, and disease worldwide which will demand new ways to find new sources of funds. With this background, we can now understand the events of 2005.

Since 9/11 which tore down the final barriers between the nation-states which were the intelligence and military barriers, the world has entered the "finishing stage." By this we are talking about finding ways to integrate the people of the world so that they are one and feel they have common concerns-or catastrophic occurrences which blend the peoples together as one. The people now have to be brought together as one people. The South Seas Tsunami did just that. The outpouring of aid from around the world was unprecedented. Even Presidents Bush and Clinton teamed up to raise monies. Schools, churches, the Boy Scouts, department stores, football teams, singers, actors, and famous people from across the U.S. raised monies.

The U.S. gave $1B in gifts and donations alone. At the 2005 World Economic Forum, Sharon Stone put up $10,000 and challenged attendees to give money for the tsunami. Within minutes, she raised $1M. Interestingly enough, a number of the corporations of the Global Compact were there, even before governments could get aid to the devastated area. This global outpouring of compassion helped to solidify the people of the world. Then Hurricanes Katrina and Rita continued the compassionate response that only comes from the most sacred place a person has, the heart. Now it was time for other countries to come to the aid of America.

Since there are no longer any barriers between the nation-states, that means the poor, starving, and diseased of the world are everyone's responsibility, or so they would have us believe. The Fabian socialists would call this a transfer of wealth. At the 2004 Group of Eight meeting in Sea Island, Georgia and then at the 2005 World Economic Forum in January, French President Jacques Chirac called for a global tax for the poor. In Davos, he specified a tax on airline tickets. At the July, 2005 Group of Eight meeting in Scotland, it was high on the agenda for the heads of state with the French specifying the parameters. When I asked Chirac if there would be other kinds of global taxes if this was successful, he told me they had many other types planned. In fact, right before Christmas, the French Government passed a levy tax on airline tickets to generate $236M a year for health programs aimed at helping the world's poorest countries. Of course this measure was applauded by the United Nations as a creative way of raising money. Perhaps I should mention that this is the first time since the Roman Empire in the time of the birth of Jesus, that a global tax has been passed.

With regard to regionalism, while the U.S. has been divided up nationally, we are also part of a hemispheric free trade bloc known as the Free Trade Areas of the Americas-FTAA. While the FTAA will involve all 34 countries in this hemisphere, it is being implemented gradually. The North American Free Trade Area-NAFTA was passed in 1994 and in 2005, the Central American Free Trade Agreement-CAFTA was passed. Because of the opposition to this bill, Bush made a special trip to Capital Hill where he twisted arms by granting over 6,000 pork barrel promises which were funded by the Transportation Bill pass before the summer recess.

It should be noted that any type of regional government-either within the U.S. or within the hemisphere is government by appointed officials and not ELECTED officials. Just as the UN system is based on appointed officials, so too is regional government which is the extension of the UN form of government. In other words, the ability of the people to have a say will not be through elected officials but by APPOINTED officials. In Our Global Neighborhood, The Commission on Global Governance in 1995 wrote, "The UN must prepare for a time when regionalism becomes more ascendant worldwide, and even help the process." This brings us to the new actors that are now involved in governance.

The globalists do not like to refer to the new structure which is being birthed in the world as "world government." Instead, they prefer to call it "global governance." This term refers to all the new actors that are making their views known. In the past, at the United Nations General Assembly, only member-states made speeches during the General Assembly, but because of the rise of corporations through the Prince of Wales Business Leaders Forum, the International Chamber of Commerce and other international groups, business and non-governmental organizations now give presentations. Also, both of these groups freely lobby at the UN, at global conferences, and nationally.

Foundations have long been an actor on the international stage. Of the top 50 foundation in the United States in 2003, the Ford Foundation ranks No.2 in size at $10.6B, behind the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation at $26.8B. The total yearly giving of the top 50 foundations is well over $133.6B. Foundations play a very major role today in making and changing society and values. Rene Wormser wrote in 1958, "The influence of the foundation complex in internationalism has reach far into government, into the policymaking circles of Congress and into the State Department. This has been effected through the pressure of public opinion, mobilized by the instruments of the foundations" (Foundations-Their Power and Influence). The question asked by the Reece Committee which delved into the power of foundations was, "To what extent, if any, are the funds of the large foundations aiding and abetting Marxist tendencies in the United States and weakening the love which every American should have for his way of life?"

At the heart of Agenda 21 is sustainable development which supports "highest and best use" of the world's resources which includes you and me. As a result of Agenda 21's, Biological Diversity Treaty, man needs to be sequestered into growth areas. In 1997, the state of Maryland was the first to pass "Smart Growth" legislation which designates areas of growth that a state will allow in order to support those areas with infrastructure. Non-growth areas are those that will not be supported by the State with tax dollars for infrastructure. Maryland's Smart Growth legislation was in effect the passage of the UN Biological Diversity Treaty.

In 2005, personal property rights, the cornerstone of American civilization, were dealt a severe blow with the Supreme Court Kelo vs. New London ruling which says that the city had the right to use eminent domain to force highest and best use of property that would create jobs and increase tax revenue for the public good. Around the U.S., the use of eminent domain is gaining popularity. Now everyone's home and property is at risk.

In September, Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour brought together a team of 110 urban planners in architecture, regional and community planning, civil and transportation engineering, environmentalism, codes and laws, retail, economics, public process and communication who came together to envision and plan to rebuild 11 coastal cities and 120 miles of coastal region. Headed up by the Congress for New Urbanism, they are now in the process of obtaining community agreement for their plans. It should be noted that the "new urbanism" which the Congress uses is basically Smart Growth or the UN Biological Diversity Treaty. It encompasses a return to the town planning principles in practice before the automobile, recycling existing buildings and land where possible, promoting a sense of community, revitalizing historic downtowns and residential neighborhood, giving people the option of walking, bilking or taking public transportation, high density building, and sustainable transportation which is mass transit.

The New Urbanism encompasses the sustainable philosophy of highest and best use. Therefore, if there are key neighborhoods that can be rebuilt to attract businesses: hotels, office buildings, convention centers to bring in more tax revenues, those neighborhoods will be subject to eminent domain. The plans drawn up by the Congress for New Urbanism also use regional or metro government as well as public-private partnerships.

It should be noted that at every turn, working behind the scenes is Prince Charles. Not only has he been responsible for the implementation of sustainable development world wide, the establishment of public-private partnerships, but also he has supported the rise of the philosophies encompassed in the "New Urbanism." In this regard, he sent two of his key planners to help rebuild the New South. [To understand "Smart Growth" and Sustainable Development you must see the video "Liberty or Sustainable Development:]

In summary, 2005 moved us closer to world government. There is a continuing revolution over rights, values, property, and form of government. The barriers between the nation-states are gone and in its place is regionalism, supported by public-private-partnership-both advocate a structure change in government and hence, governance. There are new and powerful players that have and are changing societies norms. Transfer of wealth is now under the guise of disaster relief and airline taxes. In addition, our government is working on an "open skies" agreements with all the countries of the world.

Currently they are negotiating with the EU. This means that any airline that we sign the agreement with can fly into U.S. airports and it means that the U.S. would open up the ability of foreigners to purchase our airline companies. Furthermore, the rights of the individual are now filtered through the lenses of sustainable development's "highest and best use." Personal property rights are being diluted as a result of highest and best use. The bottom line is that a permanent revolution is taking place before our very eyes. Unless you connect the dots, you will not see it or understand it.

© 2006 Joan Veon - All Rights Reserved
Joan Veon is a businesswoman and international reporter, having covered 64 Global meetings around the world in the last ten years. Please visit her website: www.womensgroup.org. To get a copy of her WTO report, send $10.00 to The Women's International Media Group, Inc. P. O. Box 77, Middletown, MD 21769. For an information packet, please call 301-371-0541
 
very informed post, i can't take that away from you. It realy enlightens the blueprint that global government is taking on. I,ve never heard some of the arguments before like the disaster relief stuff, so it still sounds a little funny, but all in all a very good set of ideas plum, how do you know most of this stuff.
 
jj82277 said:
i dont know if you missed it punk, but goodie is a histroy student too. and i could tell by your regergetative rethoric that you were being instructed by the ultraintellectuals that could not succeeed in the private sector, and instead chose to burden society by corrupting captive audiences in our nations colleges.

Saying that we are occupying Iraq is like saying France was occupying the United States durintg the revolutionary war. I can see that you and your professors are too busy seeing which historical words like imperialism, and facism, will fit in current affairs so that you will sound better at cocktail parties other than take a long hard look at the sentiment of a people that have been overwhelmed by freedom. 50 years from now when this country is reaping the seeds that they young men and women of this country are sewing now, i have the utmost faith and confidence that the ludacy of your arguments will be fully demonstrated as the silent rebelious minority that is the anarchist movement.

and by the way, the root cause of terrorism is the lack of democratic expression. Only when someone feels as though they have no other recourse do they strap a bomb to their chest and blow someone up. If they are unhappy with policies most normal people just vote to change a countries policies, only when that outlet is not allowed do people generally resort to violent forms of expression. the only long term soluion to terrorism is to spread the seed of democracy. its like running the ball in football in order to throw deep, it doesn;t seem like the two are related, but all the good coaches now how intertwined they are.


occupation

n 1: the principal activity in your life that you do to earn money; "he's not in my line of business" [syn: business, job, line of work, line] 2: the control of a country by military forces of a foreign power [syn: military control] 3: any activity that occupies a person's attention; "he missed the bell in his occupation with the computer game" 4: the act of occupying or taking possession of a building; "occupation of a building without a certificate of occupancy is illegal" [syn: occupancy, taking possession, moving in] 5: the period of time during which a place or position or nation is occupied; "during the German occupation of Paris"

either definition 2 or 5 work, actually both do. i was not referring to definition 1 or 3. just to clear up any confusion.

hopefully thats where the confusion was at and you were not actually claiming that the french were occupying the us with 100,000+ armed troops with the intent on subverting the idigenious american population against their will through massive warfare, torture, censorship, and arbitrary detention.

Though by examining the rest of your post i think the above ridiculous comparison your trying to make might actually be the one. the fact that you belive teachers become teachers because they "fail in the private sector" and they want to "corrupting captive audiences" is quite honestly the most regergitated and plainly stupid statement that i have ever heard anyone write in a long time. i have never been to an "ultraintellectual cocktail party" whatever that is and my views on iraq come from a historical analysis of the region and the history of american movites and imperialism during foriegn interventions. it also comes from a myriad of human rights and medical sources, personal friends who have served tours of duty with the army and marines, independant journalists and media sources, and of course the iraqis themselves, mainly the ones who i identify with, the independant trade unions, who want the occupation to end.

i think you and i both agree on the cause of terrorism and the fact that you did not pick that up shows you are not even reading what i am saying. the point that i was making is that foriegn military occupations, support for anti democratic autocrats, torture, genocidal sanctions, israeli settlements, and of course terrorism itself. is not "freedom"

as for goodie, im not going to let him off the hook for not knowing whos who in the spanish civil war which is something ever undergraduate student should know(but sadly they dont) however on haymarket, i often come across books written by phds who glance over the topic in an inaccurate manner, its not his fault.
 
occupation

"n 1: the principal activity in your life that you do to earn money; "he's not in my line of business" [syn: business, job, line of work, line] 2: the control of a country by military forces of a foreign power [syn: military control] 3: any activity that occupies a person's attention; "he missed the bell in his occupation with the computer game" 4: the act of occupying or taking possession of a building; "occupation of a building without a certificate of occupancy is illegal" [syn: occupancy, taking possession, moving in] 5: the period of time during which a place or position or nation is occupied; "during the German occupation of Paris"

either definition 2 or 5 work, actually both do. i was not referring to definition 1 or 3. just to clear up any confusion.

hopefully thats where the confusion was at and you were not actually claiming that the french were occupying the us with 100,000+ armed troops with the intent on subverting the idigenious american population against their will through massive warfare, torture, censorship, and arbitrary detention."

your verbal scores must not have been that high. let me further articulate what i thought was an obvious analogy,

I said that saying we are OCCUPYING Iraq, Is like saying that France was Occupying the United States during the revolutionary war. using contextual clues from the rest of my posts i thought that it would be abundantly clear that by this statement i am not implying that France was occupying the united states (because they were a foriegn power aiding us in our military revolution in the seeking of democracy,), but that we ARE NOT OCCUPYING Iraq. The reason being that we like france, are aiding a fledgling democratic government come frmo under the tyranous reign of a dictator. I'm sorry i thought that was clear, remind me to spoon fed you next time.

and for the sake of making my point rebuddle proof lets use the definition that you put forth to proove my point.

definition 2 controll of a country by military force. now just because we undertook military action in the country to chase out the bad guys, doesn't mean that we are trying to controll them. this would be evident by the fact that our presence there now is by in large to protect there citizens while they participate (in large numbers i might add) in their own democratic process. you don't see us sending over our own people to govern there, we are making sure that the good people of that country have a chance to govern without the oppression of the evil. Once again this fails to meet your definition of occupation.

definition 5, this is a good one, but there is another tricky analogy here, so i hope you make the connection. the period of time during which a place or position or nation is occupied; "during the German occupation of Paris" this clarifies defnintion 2 as an invasionary force that looks to govern said territory. The Germans were not fighting to preserve any rights of the French, they were fighting to subject them to
 
their soverign foriegn rule. That's not what america is doing in Iraq, so im sorry, but again the American Military actions in Iraq does not meet Your definition of Occupation.
 
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and truly the only thing that seperates our oppinions is the root cause of terrorism which we disagree on. I think that the main reason for such extreme acts of vilence is the absence of democratic expression that only throws gasoline on the fire of religious fanaticism. I think that the only way to combat terrorism is to spread the only antidote that we know of which is democracy.

the other way is to forgo what we know to be right and true, and engage ourselve in a globabl popularity contest to please the rest of the world. and that is just unmanly. the oly way that we will ever have everyone in the world like us is if we stop leading. most countries that hate us are jelous of the freedoms and advantages we have as americans and im not giving those up just to make them feel better.
 
jj82277 said:
occupation

"n 1: the principal activity in your life that you do to earn money; "he's not in my line of business" [syn: business, job, line of work, line] 2: the control of a country by military forces of a foreign power [syn: military control] 3: any activity that occupies a person's attention; "he missed the bell in his occupation with the computer game" 4: the act of occupying or taking possession of a building; "occupation of a building without a certificate of occupancy is illegal" [syn: occupancy, taking possession, moving in] 5: the period of time during which a place or position or nation is occupied; "during the German occupation of Paris"

either definition 2 or 5 work, actually both do. i was not referring to definition 1 or 3. just to clear up any confusion.

hopefully thats where the confusion was at and you were not actually claiming that the french were occupying the us with 100,000+ armed troops with the intent on subverting the idigenious american population against their will through massive warfare, torture, censorship, and arbitrary detention."

your verbal scores must not have been that high. let me further articulate what i thought was an obvious analogy,

I said that saying we are OCCUPYING Iraq, Is like saying that France was Occupying the United States during the revolutionary war. using contextual clues from the rest of my posts i thought that it would be abundantly clear that by this statement i am not implying that France was occupying the united states (because they were a foriegn power aiding us in our military revolution in the seeking of democracy,), but that we ARE NOT OCCUPYING Iraq. The reason being that we like france, are aiding a fledgling democratic government come frmo under the tyranous reign of a dictator. I'm sorry i thought that was clear, remind me to spoon fed you next time.

and for the sake of making my point rebuddle proof lets use the definition that you put forth to proove my point.

definition 2 controll of a country by military force. now just because we undertook military action in the country to chase out the bad guys, doesn't mean that we are trying to controll them. this would be evident by the fact that our presence there now is by in large to protect there citizens while they participate (in large numbers i might add) in their own democratic process. you don't see us sending over our own people to govern there, we are making sure that the good people of that country have a chance to govern without the oppression of the evil. Once again this fails to meet your definition of occupation.

definition 5, this is a good one, but there is another tricky analogy here, so i hope you make the connection. the period of time during which a place or position or nation is occupied; "during the German occupation of Paris" this clarifies defnintion 2 as an invasionary force that looks to govern said territory. The Germans were not fighting to preserve any rights of the French, they were fighting to subject them to


First off that is not "my" definition of occupation it is the dictionary definition and yes it clearly beyond any doubt describes what is happening in iraq.

Secondly, to insult my "verbal skills" after recieving statements from you the likes of:

". Your proposal as most and i dont mean to sound harsh, but cowards is to not live at all, to never strive to build a collective community with leaders, just as some men are afraid to live."

in which i kindly asked you to rewrite it, is a bit childish.

Thirdly, everything i said i stand by. ironically it was you who were not able to comprehend my point. you were in fact claiming that what is happening now in iraq, is the same as what was happening during the revolutionary war with the us in iraq being france in the us. Well to invoke the revolutionary war is a bit riduculous, especially like that. maybe one could draw parallels to the insurgency fighting against foriegn US control, but that is also a simplistic outlook.

So again, your not reading what i was saying. please read above. the french did not invade the US, bomb it, and kill 100,000 people. The french were not being attacked a dozen times by americans on a daily basis, there were no major political demonstrations against the french "control"(because they did not have any), the french did not control or censor what the americans were doing, they were not imprisoning aribitrarily americans, they were not torturing americans, and they did not destroy any american cities, after the first point i really shouldnt have to go on, but you can begin to see the absurdity of that comparison.

And yet again, you are not reading what i sam saying. if you were you would see we agree on the causes of terrorism. the point that i was making is that foriegn military occupations, support for anti democratic autocrats, torture, genocidal sanctions, israeli settlements, and of course terrorism itself. is not "freedom" or "democracy"

if you believe those things are freedom than you are lost in an orwellian totalitarian mindset. if you dont realize that those things are happening that is another story, but this is not what you are saying. So im not going to bother posting here if your not going to read anything. all i have gotten out of your are insults and childish rhetoric.
 
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