Cack =/= Art

[Laugh704]

Any time you post art in an open forum you are going to get remarks. Be it harsh, kind, good, bad, whatever - that's only common sense. Personally I get tired of constantly seeing "good work", "great job", "looks good" or whatever. One should first consider the source of the comments before making judgements of their value.

There are opinions and there are 'qualified' opinions. To me that's the difference between an opinion and a critique. If Joe Schmoe down the street tells me I need to release later on a jump shot and Michael Jordan tells me I don't, who am I going to listen to? If Joe Zo tells me I need to loosen up on my golf swing and Tiger Woods tells I need to tighten up, who am I going to listen to? And why? Because one is simply an opinion and the other is an opinion coming from a qualified professional. That being said, who is professional enough here at the TMF to make such judgements? Who are the legends everyone thinks so highly of? Should we give out little stars to "Qualified" opinions so we value them more?

How do we differentiate between the qualified professionals who actually know what they are talking about, and the casual "good job" posts?

I personally think this issue is being inflated far out of proportion. If someone does not like the art being offered - don't look. Same goes for clips, videos, stories, etc. It's really simple people.

Would I like a forum dedicated solely to all-star legends that we all drool and loose sleep wishing we had their talents? In some ways yes. But that would eliminate probably 98% of TMF artists. I know, I know. You're not saying 'eliminate' anyone. But that brings back the question of who do we decide to give qualified opinions? How do we distinguish between qualified professionals and wannabes? This is the wall again. One I simply go around instead of wasting time with, because it progresses back into useless nonsense. Loosen up people. This is the TMF not a professional art gallery or art school. People come here to have fun. Try it sometime.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Any time you post art in an open forum you are going to get remarks. Be it harsh, kind, good, bad, whatever - that's only common sense. Personally I get tired of constantly seeing "good work", "great job", "looks good" or whatever. One should first consider the source of the comments before making judgements of their value.

Yes, but if that's all you get, you have nothing else to go by. People start believing it. It's kind of like celebrities. If enough sycophants kiss their ass everyday and tell them that the sun rises and sets on them, they start to believe it. Strange, but true.

There are opinions and there are 'qualified' opinions. To me that's the difference between an opinion and a critique. If Joe Schmoe down the street tells me I need to release later on a jump shot and Michael Jordan tells me I don't, who am I going to listen to? If Joe Zo tells me I need to loosen up on my golf swing and Tiger Woods tells I need to tighten up, who am I going to listen to? And why? Because one is simply an opinion and the other is an opinion coming from a qualified professional. That being said, who is professional enough here at the TMF to make such judgements? Who are the legends everyone thinks so highly of? Should we give out little stars to "Qualified" opinions so we value them more?

In this forum? Any trained artist is qualified to give technical advice. If this were an art forum, I would be more picky, but as you have pointed out, it's not, so the untrained can take pointers from the available trained. Whose qualified? Professional artists, obviously, and artist whose work is better than the artist he's offering advice to. Hopefully, that artist will be gracious and
remember that he isn't that high up the rung. perhaps he can offer suggestions on techniques he found helped him inprove.

How do we differentiate between the qualified professionals who actually know what they are talking about, and the casual "good job" posts?

Please, even the lay person knows it when they see it. Give them some credit.

I personally think this issue is being inflated far out of proportion. If someone does not like the art being offered - don't look. Same goes for clips, videos, stories, etc. It's really simple people.

This issue was started by someone tired of looking at unskilled art. I personally share your philosophy of ignoring things I don't like, but there is a ridiculously large amount of it. It would be better to help these artists develop some skill, than to simply ignore their work. This should be a community effort as we would all benefit from it. At least those who enjoy erotic tickling art.

Would I like a forum dedicated solely to all-star legends that we all drool and loose sleep wishing we had their talents? In some ways yes. But that would eliminate probably 98% of TMF artists. I know, I know. You're not saying 'eliminate' anyone. But that brings back the question of who do we decide to give qualified opinions? How do we distinguish between qualified professionals and wannabes? This is the wall again. One I simply go around instead of wasting time with, because it progresses back into useless nonsense. Loosen up people. This is the TMF not a professional art gallery or art school. People come here to have fun. Try it sometime.

If it's too hard, just quit. You'll excuse me if I don't accept that option. There are always alternatives. I can't make folks give more thoughtful critiques. They either choose to do it or they don't. I can't make artists improve their skills. I have spelled out what lay people and artists in the community should do and that is really all I'm going to do on that front. For myself, I have already spoken to the mods and have gotten their tentative support to test out a tutorial resource I want to start. It will be sticky posts of varying tutorials touching on many fundamental techniques, with practical visual instructions that can be used by artists who would like to improve their skills. If the tutorials go over well, I may post more advanced stuff for other artists just looking for tips, but for now, just the basics. This is for artists who don't have, can't find or can't afford tutorial books in stores. It will also focus more on comic book drawing, both realistic and cartoon. I believe if you're going to speak up, you should back up your words. I'm willing to devote the time to a project, which may never be used. But none of the artists who are unskilled can say they had no resources to work with. I believe that we "do what we can," but let's at least do something, rather than just say the words.
webmaster joe

 

[ngauntjsmith]

There are opinions and there are 'qualified' opinions. To me that's the difference between an opinion and a critique. If Joe Schmoe down the street tells me I need to release later on a jump shot and Michael Jordan tells me I don't, who am I going to listen to?

Yeah, but if you miss the basket, Joe Schmoe doesn't need any professional qualifications to say, "you missed the basket." Anyone can tell if someone missed a basket. That much is not a matter of 'qualified' opinions.

The difference here is between a professional being able to say *what* an amateur is doing wrong, and a normal person who can say, "that drawing isn't so good." You don't need to be a professional artist to merely observe that a drawing isn't so good.

Then again, it's far more helpful to provide detailed advice on how to improve, rather than just complaining that "that drawing is cack," (Or even something more polite like, "look, no offense but these drawings look like something my 5th grader brings home from art class, and it's kind of creepy to see that on an adult web site, and you should get some kind of help.")

Then again again, if the board becomes flooded with lots of awful drawings then I think it's worth it for someone to call it out, like the dude who started this thread.

Ng.

 

[Laugh704]

This issue was started by someone tired of looking at unskilled art.

If you don't like the art offered - don't look at it. If you are tired of looking at it.. why are you looking at it??

 

[ngauntjsmith]

If you don't like the art offered - don't look at it. If you are tired of looking at it.. why are you looking at it??

I guess the problem is that there is so much of it. So much that it's hard to avoid.

For example, I rarely ever come by this forum just because the odds are too high that I'll see a disturbingly kindergartenesque drawing if I click on a random link.

If there was some way to avoid that, that would be awesome.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I guess the problem is that there is so much of it. So much that it's hard to avoid.

For example, I rarely ever come by this forum just because the odds are too high that I'll see a disturbingly kindergartenesque drawing if I click on a random link.

If there was some way to avoid that, that would be awesome.

Hmm...I have an idea. Maybe we can create some kind of rating system where, upon viewing a thread, theres an option to give the thread a rating. I think something like this already exists, since sometimes you see a series of stars next to a thread, denoting that someone has rated it.

Maybe if we carried over this concept to art more directly, we could offer the userbase some forewarning. If people can vote for the quality of the art contained in the thread (like 1-5), other people will see the statistical backing that art has before they even open the thread.

It also has another benefit. It encourages people to be more truthful. Only having to click to rate something (1-5), but having the benefit of also being anonymous makes people rate more honestly, since their reputation doesn't figure in to it and they don't have to post to give their rating, and, the rating itself is a form of opinion on the work.

In the end, if a person, say you for example, looks at one of my art threads, and you see that the ratings show more people are giving me ratings of 3 or less instead of the full 5, then thats like a heads up to you, and may save you time and effort.

On the other hand, this system can also be abused by the idle/casual praisers and the coddlers to give additional, misleading support (if a thread is getting all 5s and the art is "cack", then you've been mislead and have wasted your time, and thats wrong). Hopefully, this will be more balanced though, since you've got more people (like the folks in this thread) rating altogether and that may negate or counter any problems.

 

[Laugh704]

I refuse to "improve" for him and simply don't show him my work.

How does this differ from my actions here at TMF?

 

[Laugh704]

I guess the problem is that there is so much of it. So much that it's hard to avoid.

For example, I rarely ever come by this forum just because the odds are too high that I'll see a disturbingly kindergartenesque drawing if I click on a random link.

If there was some way to avoid that, that would be awesome.

Why not send the artist a pm with your artistic qualifications and personal critique? This would avoid them public embarassment and maybe they won't repeat failure in the eyes of greatness.

 

[laughinggaszone]

If you don't like the art offered - don't look at it. If you are tired of looking at it.. why are you looking at it??

personally, I don't look at it, but as another poster responded a little further down the thread, there is a great deal of the stuff and it's pretty hard to avoid. Your solution, is no solution at all and is the option most folks take when dealing with a problem. out of site, out of mind. If the problem is dealt with and the artists nurtured, then we stand to have a greater number of decent artists in this forum. Hardly an unworthy effort.
webmster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

How does this differ from my actions here at TMF?

Because he is a single individual and not a collective forum. Also, for him,
it is a perverse pleasure to simply ridicule. Mostly because he hs no talents of his own. You are simply ignoring everyone's opinion. Hardly the same.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

Hmm...I have an idea. Maybe we can create some kind of rating system where, upon viewing a thread, theres an option to give the thread a rating. I think something like this already exists, since sometimes you see a series of stars next to a thread, denoting that someone has rated it.

Maybe if we carried over this concept to art more directly, we could offer the userbase some forewarning. If people can vote for the quality of the art contained in the thread (like 1-5), other people will see the statistical backing that art has before they even open the thread.

It also has another benefit. It encourages people to be more truthful. Only having to click to rate something (1-5), but having the benefit of also being anonymous makes people rate more honestly, since their reputation doesn't figure in to it and they don't have to post to give their rating, and, the rating itself is a form of opinion on the work.

In the end, if a person, say you for example, looks at one of my art threads, and you see that the ratings show more people are giving me ratings of 3 or less instead of the full 5, then thats like a heads up to you, and may save you time and effort.

On the other hand, this system can also be abused by the idle/casual praisers and the coddlers to give additional, misleading support (if a thread is getting all 5s and the art is "cack", then you've been mislead and have wasted your time, and thats wrong). Hopefully, this will be more balanced though, since you've got more people (like the folks in this thread) rating altogether and that may negate or counter any problems.

Unfortunately, it's too hands off and essentially the same thing being done now. Instead of "Good job" or "Piece of shit", it's 1 star 5 star. It doesn't help the artist improve. No, direct, honest and respectful critiquing and opinions is the the best way to go. It's a good idea on paper, but how many folks will actually practice it. You will always have the troll monkeys who get their rocks off doing little drive by put downs as well as folks to lazy to give more than a casual crtique. Folks want good art, but it's amazing how little they are prepared to do to get it. Throwing money at finished work is fine, but nurturing and encouraging artists so that there is a wealth of that art, that's
better.
webmaster joe

 

[Laugh704]

Because he is a single individual and not a collective forum. Also, for him,
it is a perverse pleasure to simply ridicule. Mostly because he hs no talents of his own. You are simply ignoring everyone's opinion. Hardly the same.
webmaster joe

Bs. Practice what you preach. You are ignoring the problem regardless.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Bs. Practice what you preach. You are ignoring the problem regardless.

Again, your assessment is faulty. It is not the same. Where I choose not to show my art to one individual, you choose not to show it to anyone, hence avoiding ANY negative criticism.
webmaster joe

 

[Laugh704]

Again, your assessment is faulty. It is not the same. Where I choose not to show my art to one individual, you choose not to show it to anyone, hence avoiding ANY negative criticism.
webmaster joe

Your assessment is faulty. I do show my work. Simply not at TMF for reasons I choose, not unlike your own.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Your assessment is faulty. I do show my work. Simply not at TMF for reasons I choose, not unlike your own.

Ok, we're starting to stray from the point of this thread. You post elsewhere, good for you. I'm interested in artists who post here.
webmaster joe

 

[moonknight80200]

The idea has been thrown out there that only bona fide artists of the highest caliber are qualified to give an opinion on what is cack and what isn't. Bull. You don't have to be Hitchcock or Brando to know that Ishtar was a piece of crap or that Madonna couldn't act her way out of a wet paper bag. Likewise, you don't have to be Jose Carreras to recognize that William Hung sucks. The fans recognize talent and drek when they see it. Granted, the skilled artists among us are more qualified to give technical advice, etc., but others should feel free to chime in as well. It is an open forum, after all, and the stuff is put out there for public consumption.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Unfortunately, it's too hands off and essentially the same thing being done now. Instead of "Good job" or "Piece of shit", it's 1 star 5 star. It doesn't help the artist improve. No, direct, honest and respectful critiquing and opinions is the the best way to go. It's a good idea on paper, but how many folks will actually practice it. You will always have the troll monkeys who get their rocks off doing little drive by put downs as well as folks to lazy to give more than a casual crtique. Folks want good art, but it's amazing how little they are prepared to do to get it. Throwing money at finished work is fine, but nurturing and encouraging artists so that there is a wealth of that art, that's
better.
webmaster joe

Oh, I completely agree with you, if you haven't been able to tell that from my previous posts. My suggestion of rating was just an answer to someone's question of how we can avoid wasting our time on cack without having to look at it. On just that level alone, its a good idea. Naturally its flawed in the ways you say, though.

 

[moonknight80200]

Oh, I completely agree with you, if you haven't been able to tell that from my previous posts. My suggestion of rating was just an answer to someone's question of how we can avoid wasting our time on cack without having to look at it. On just that level alone, its a good idea. Naturally its flawed in the ways you say, though.

I like your idea CE, but as someone said, there are cliques on these boards and socially popular cack artists, and I'd wager dollars to donuts that all their pals would give them 5's across the board no matter what they churned out.

 

[rictor_rabbit]

WOW DIS IS A BIG THREAD, lets keep bumpin it

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I like your idea CE, but as someone said, there are cliques on these boards and socially popular cack artists, and I'd wager dollars to donuts that all their pals would give them 5's across the board no matter what they churned out.

While thats undesirable, we could make the stats, as I was saying, so that all the results show up. For example, it shows the percentage of people who gave 5s, 4s, 3s, 2s, and 1s, just like poll results. Its not where whatever was voted for the most (5s for example) is the only thing that shows up and the other ratings don't matter. Besides, if there are more 5s than anything else, and we know that artist is a "cack" artist because we've seen their art before and we're fimilar with their username, then we know to not to trust a thread thats all 5s coming from them. As we get more and more fimilar with WHO the cack artists are, they're easier to avoid, and a system like this can help filter things.

It could be where theres a mini-view where it shows you the rating thats the highest, but if you place the mouse over it or click on it, it shows you all the ratings and their percentages so you can get a good idea for how people rated it what. If theres only 10 more ratings of 5s (altogether) than there are 2s (altogether) then you know the difference isn't that big and that theres a conflict of interests between fans and critics and the thread is easier to avoid, if you so choose. If 5s radically outnumber the ammount of 1s and 2s, it can be confusing which stats to trust if you're not fimilar with the artist (not so much if the 1s and 2s outnumber, since ratings like that are likely to be more honest), but, if you give the thread a look you'll see for yourself whether its cack or not, and you'll now know not to trust the stats being given to THAT artist and you can avoid THEM altogether regardless of any bias stats they get.

So, it wouldn't matter how many fans vote biasly, since we're seeing all the results, not just the ones that are most numerous. For this idea to be effective at helping us filter what we don't want to see, we'd have to be willing to inform ourselves of who is who and to memorize them and their styles. A system like this cannot be effective on it's own. Once you get fimiliar enough with whats going on, the stats become irrelevant and you don't need them.

The system aims to inform you, not make your posting decisions for you, obviously.

Remember, though, this idea/thought is meant to answer the problem of avoiding cack art only, not helping it. Helping it is another matter which is also being discussed here by various people.

 

[ngauntjsmith]

Well, here's another possible suggestion: have a separate pro artwork forum, and a few pros with the mod powers to bump threads over there if they think the art is good enough to meet some professional standard.

Then the people who post drawings can have their community, and people who are looking for quality artwork don't have to be buried in the other stuff. Plus there's no negative rating there: you either get elevated or nothing happens.

I can see problems with this idea but maybe something like it would work.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Well, here's another possible suggestion: have a separate pro artwork forum, and a few pros with the mod powers to bump threads over there if they think the art is good enough to meet some professional standard.

Then the people who post drawings can have their community, and people who are looking for quality artwork don't have to be buried in the other stuff. Plus there's no negative rating there: you either get elevated or nothing happens.

I can see problems with this idea but maybe something like it would work.

Again, it doesn't solve the problem, it merely segragates it. I think we all know how well that works. No, the only option is for unskilled artists to be encouraged and critiqued. What they do with it is their choice, but I know from experience that many artists will strive to improve because they want to, regardless of whether or not they want to be "pros."
webmaster joe

 

[tyklfynd]

Ok rgevskiy, this has got to be one of my favorite posts, total honesty; *bows*.

I personally would like to see more honesty on this forum. I can take criticism, especially if its specific. Not just, "this pic is mediocre" but "i found the way you drew X was off for reason Y". But anything specific in a post is much better than just "nice pic".

But I would be especially pleased if peeps would at least only post super enthusiastic praise when they really meant it. Its fine that peeps post cack, and I never criticize because I just dont have the heart to rip into someone. But it totally depresses me when someone raves about something someone did that looks like they spent 1 minute drawing it. I only praise stuff I genuinely like. Why do peeps post on every pic, even the obviously bad ones? I think its because they want to boost their post ranking, I believe post rankings encourage low quality short posts. One possible way to fix this is to get rid of the post rankings. Another is to make a post count towards your ranking only if its fairly long.

Love this thread. And there was a thread a while back that was "who is your favorite artist" which I also loved cause I felt people were honest in it.

Snail Shell
Your works is not cack. =) But... In Russia this is called a "popsa". It means: Numerous, not highly artistic, but bright products in popular subjects. It is not bad at all, but "popsa" - not the best way for artist.

to All
I conditionally divide artists into groups:
Cack killalot, Rajee, sorry...
Low (or popsa) Snail Shell, Falcon.
Mediocre (Transitive level) C_Tickler, Rgevskiy 😉 , Pabuluz*, Khali.
High Chimp, Umojar, Friday-13(she are only lazy).
Ultra-High (fully commercial level) Bandito, Kalamos, Tomato Dragon..
Genius Scavenger, Ozzy..
In examples only artists well familiar to me


Actually, i think, only mediocre and high-level artists need some criticism to improve.

Cack and Low-level artists if they really want to become better, should get some art education independently, outside of a forum.

Ultra-High-level artists sometimes need in other sorts of criticism - criticism of the designer's ideas.

It just my opinion. =)

*Yes, yes, I know, the Pab has many fans, but "to copy looks of Ozzy's style" and "be the second Ozzy" - different things. The understanding of gear of style has highest importance.

 

[Umojar]

Well now, I don't usually come here, but this is an awesome thread that would be great in another certain forum as well.

My opinion on the whole thing comes down to this. People who don't ask for constructive criticism don't want it, so it's really a waste of time to offer it anyway. Sure they may want to improve, but they could be working on it at their own pace and they aren't at the point yet to where they could get the most out of a critique. Someone who doesn't have a handle on the basics will not be able to benefit from someone tearing apart and analyzing their work piece by piece as much as someone else would.

Some light criticism every now and then would be nice though, for here and TT. If someone actually is scared off by that, then they shouldn't post in the first place. I also think it's wrong that people aren't allowed to post criticisms because they may seem too harsh. Kids aren't allowed here, so I don't get why people are so concerned with sparing people's feelings as if they're children. Everything should be open to all comments and if you can't handle that don't post. That would probably lessen the amount of "artists" significantly, but the community wouldn't be missing out on anything. Harsh, but honest. If they are just doing it for fun, than the criticisms should be disregarded, and if their trying to improve they should read them and weed out what's actually constructive and throw out the rest.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

Someone earlier said that topics like this only come around once a year or so and then things settle down. That is to say, we vent and tire ourselves out and its really nothing but talk about what we'd like to see happen, rather than what we're actually going to do about it. The people who don't like critiques or the idea that we're even having this conversation (or where its going) let out a big sigh of relief when threads like this are over and they feel better for another six months or so, like they've dodged a bullet or weathered a storm. They take solice in knowing we're only half-serious and never enough to lead to anything. I think this has to do with why we're going largely unchallenged here. They let us muse and brood and have our space because they figure we'll get over it and things will be business as usual, thereafter. Thats the reality and has been up until now. I think the character of our members (especially those who participated/will participate in this thread or who viewed it silently with interest) will be proven this time around when we see who actually does something and who just reverts back to being a bystander who leaves the job to someone else because they didn't have the bite to back up the bark.

Its really well and good that all of us here got together to share similar views, and I appriciate the honesty of everyone (quite frankily, its like a huge, deep breath of the freshest air after leaving a dank cave) but they won't mean a thing if its just talk in the end. I'm tired of the talk, even if it is just an annual occurance.