Cack =/= Art

[Dave2112]

LGZ...you seem to be the only one that's really all that bothered by this. Who cares what kind of responses people get to thier works? I mean really...what are you trying to change that's so very bad? If it offends you so much, perhaps this is not the place for you.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[isabeau]

for the love of crap, i didn't mean that criticism isn't a necessary part of critiquing someone's work..i meant it can be done without the mean spirited name calling that i've seen on this thread..and others..whenever i do make criticism, which i admit isn't very often, it's usually to offer some advice on how to do it better...the reason i don't make criticisms on artwork is because i don't know enough about it to recommend doing it any differently...this is not a paid website, where one would expect nothing but professional work, but a free website, where everyone's efforts should be appreciated...at least they are trying and contributing...there is nothing wrong with criticism, heck i get it everyday, but what i find offensive is this word "cack" and also making lists, ranking from the lowest to the highest artist...

 

[Lauren Tyler]

While I agree with a few points in this thread...

To be brutally honest, if I was a new artist and reader here and read this post (among other things in this thread)...I wouldn't post art here. Or have a very small chance of doing so...

Kh-rap

Time for a signature image switch...yeah, that's the right one, Rayne...

Khali, please don't let him get you down. Everyone draws in their own unique style, and there's nothing wrong with that. If someone else doesn't like your style, don't let it get you down. You're a great artist in my eyes because you do the best you can with each picture, and that's all anyone can ask for.

 

[Lauren Tyler]

OK, people. I think it's time we got something straight:

Everyone draws in their own unique style, and while you may not like their style, you do have that right to do so. But calling it 'crap' and things like that in a thread like this is really uncalled for. It does no good whatsoever, it only gets everyone's motors revved.

This isn't a place for fighting, it's for discussing tickling and sharing artwork. Some people have a realistic style, some draw cartoonish, it's their style, and they can draw however they want to.

Saying that someone draws 'crap' or 'cack' in a thread like this just really isn't the right thing to do. It's one thing to offer constructive criticism, but stuff like this is likely to incite fighting, and that's not what I want to see on here.

Simply put, each artist has their own special qualities for their style, and they should be respected for that.

This is to many artists on here, including, but not limited to:
Khali
rajee
Scamwich
Kahoshiden
grippedchimp

You all have your own unique knack for art, and you do what you do great, because you try your best and put your hearts into it. It may not be perfect, but there is no such thing as a perfect style. But that is what makes drawing interesting, in that we can aspire to learn new styles and techniques.

So in closing, I'd like to say if you don't like someone's art, that's fine, but don't bring it out into the open, as that's not going to do any good.

Thank you.

 

[revolter]

Wow

All I can say to this is: LGZ, you're one stuck up whiney bi... annoying person.

I'm not even gonna comment on your ideas, just the way you try to get them across.

You're "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude is totally misplaced. You're just shooting down valid arguments without any ammo of your own ( aka, you got nothing to counter them).
This isn't YOUR forum ( ha, bet you kinda forgot that eh? ). If you want to give "good" artists ( by your standards ) the privilege of posting on a forum and refrain the "crappy" ones from posting ... make your own <insert deity here>damn forum.
This is a free forum and, as I see it, kind of a "family type" forum. We're all one big happy family ... and you're the reject the family wants to hide in the basement ... .

In conclusion:

- You're very very wrong
- TMF art forum is for everyone ( over 18 )
- Don't like the art, don't comment ( or give constructive advice )
- Pull stick out of ass
- Forcing your opinion on others is bad, m'kay?
- Puppies are cute !!
- Perfection comes with practice

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I think people are seeing what they want to see and hearing what they want to hear, to the point of exageration, just for the sake of coming in here and getting their turn on the soap box. I think laughinggaszone has been very clear and distinct in what he's said and that there is no way to mistake it.

All he ever said he was going to do was make tutorials and ask others to do the same. The majority was also posting and more or less saying they're in agreement with a balance being struck between idle/casual/mindless praise and constructive criticism. Being that it became the topic, its only natural that numerous people came to discuss it. No one agreed to actually do anything though, and we're only slowly seeing others get involved by creating tutorials of their own.

No one is claiming rights to anything, and noone is telling anyone they cannot post here or are not good enough to post here. The forum is merely being put on notice: something construcive is going to be done to help this situation rather than just more talk and talk and talk. If you don't believe this is necessary, then it is you, and not he, who should avoid it and have nothing to do with it, especially if you're not actually an artist who would be needing or wanting help anyways. What use is it for a fan to complain? Its not for them anyway or their benefit.

This man is/will be trying to perform a service for the artistic aspect of this site and all I see him getting for it are people coming back to him and berating his opinions. Even if you think what he says is misplaced, what he's trying to do is good and should have positive results despite his opinions. In actuality, he's been the most civil person here, despite constant barrages from others, contradictions, and backtalk. He keeps his cool and doesn't lose his patience, nor is he sarcastic, snide, or mean. It's the people who don't see him budging or giving in (as if it was expected if enough people whined or complained) that are badgering him (perhaps some of these people see him as a threat). He said what he was going to do, let him do it. Bumping this thread doesn't change anything, it just creates a fight or flight response at this point, where you're either here to defend yourself when you're trying to resolve it (something that shouldn't be necessary in what was a civil thread), or you're here to fight and argue, to carry it on, which is also unnecessary.

 

[moonknight80200]

I think people are seeing what they want to see and hearing what they want to hear, to the point of exageration, just for the sake of coming in here and getting their turn on the soap box. I think laughinggaszone has been very clear and distinct in what he's said and that there is no way to mistake it.

All he ever said he was going to do was make tutorials and ask others to do the same. The majority was also posting and more or less saying they're in agreement with a balance being struck between idle/casual/mindless praise and constructive criticism. Being that it became the topic, its only natural that numerous people came to discuss it. No one agreed to actually do anything though, and we're only slowly seeing others get involved by creating tutorials of their own.

No one is claiming rights to anything, and noone is telling anyone they cannot post here or are not good enough to post here. The forum is merely being put on notice: something construcive is going to be done to help this situation rather than just more talk and talk and talk. If you don't believe this is necessary, then it is you, and not he, who should avoid it and have nothing to do with it, especially if you're not actually an artist who would be needing or wanting help anyways. What use is it for a fan to complain? Its not for them anyway or their benefit.

This man is/will be trying to perform a service for the artistic aspect of this site and all I see him getting for it are people coming back to him and berating his opinions. Even if you think what he says is misplaced, what he's trying to do is good and should have positive results despite his opinions. In actuality, he's been the most civil person here, despite constant barrages from others, contradictions, and backtalk. He keeps his cool and doesn't lose his patience, nor is he sarcastic, snide, or mean. It's the people who don't see him budging or giving in (as if it was expected if enough people whined or complained) that are badgering him (perhaps some of these people see him as a threat). He said what he was going to do, let him do it. Bumping this thread doesn't change anything, it just creates a fight or flight response at this point, where you're either here to defend yourself when you're trying to resolve it (something that shouldn't be necessary in what was a civil thread), or you're here to fight and argue, to carry it on, which is also unnecessary.

I agree. The guy never trashed anybody. It's not wrong to point out that there is such a thing as basic mastery of an artform which some have mastered and others haven't. Sheesh, it's like if you don't say that everyone is equally awesome than you're a monster or something.

 

[Kalamos]

In actuality, he's been the most civil person here, despite constant barrages from others, contradictions, and backtalk. He keeps his cool and doesn't lose his patience, nor is he sarcastic, snide, or mean.

Sorry, but you are painting somebody's else portrait, there.

He - webmaster joe - did contradict himself, about giving advice in-thread.
And he has been blunt to the point of being mean.

Had his attitude and manners been better, people would not have stopped reading, and started assuming.

Talking down Dave was not the most tactful move either.

...

At any rate, this whole thread is surreal.
We are not even fighting over who is the better artist.
We are fighting over who is the least poor.

 

[Headsnap]

LGZ...you seem to be the only one that's really all that bothered by this. Who cares what kind of responses people get to thier works? I mean really...what are you trying to change that's so very bad? If it offends you so much, perhaps this is not the place for you.

And that's all I have to say about that.

I sincerely doubt that's the case; after all it wasn't LGZ who started the thread, he's just been the most eloquent proponent of the points I was initially trying to make, plus if he was the only person bothered by the reams of Sesame Street looking fetish art (because, through all the bitching and whining about technical ability and what-have-you it's worth remembering that this is FETISH artwork we're talking about) that pervade not only this forum but the artwork community as a whole then this thread never would've made it to 16 pages would it?

Nobody's saying that every single piece needs to be a shining example of beautifully crafted art or that every artist needs to be BAC or scavenger before they come posting their dump upon this here forum, however I myself am a bit sick of the substandard poo that seems to find it's way here in abundance and, more annoyingly, the little cults of personality that support and indeed encourage it. I read a point somewhere that I found interesting and very relevant to this, one which people seem to have glossed over; If you've been drawing for three years and have yet to improve beyond the point where your figures look to be composed of crudely drawn sausage-monsters with fishbowl heads and tea-saucer eyes maybe it's time to go outside, have a word with yourself and slap yourself in the face. The reason that all those people are telling you that the monstrous horror you have created is a "nice pic" is because they are spineless folk unable to muster criticism or they are your friends; to everyone else your "nice pic" is horrific and could possibly be used as evidence that you are not actually old enough to have an account here (because come on, what person over the age of 18 still uses interconnected oblongs for human limbs, lined school paper for a medium or crayons for colouring?).

As far as non-artsy people not being in a position to criticise artwork that's a pile of bollocks. I don't need to have scored 400 goals for Real Madrid to tell when a footballer lacks the fundamental skills required to be a decent player, and nor do I need to be Vincent Van Gogh to tell you when an artist is so lacking in base fundamentals such as "being able to add depth to facial features" or "being able to shade properly" that he's unlikely ever to produce anything which wouldn't shame my 4 year old niece. It's not even a subjective personal opinion; as I've said before the idiosyncrasies of someone's artwork ARE a matter of personal taste but technical skill is not, and therefore it is fair (if somewhat vitriolic) to call someone a cacky artist if they lack the fundamentals whereas it would be UNfair to label them cacky artists simply because they draw a lot of elves and I dislike elves intensely. In my mind, though, the whole argument that we shouldn't be singling out people and berating them for posting art because "style is subjective" is redundant in this case, because most of the artists that choke this forum are so devoid of fundamental technical proficiencies such as adding depth, shading, or even drawing a straight line that they are unable to exert any individuality over a piece, and their "style" is merely aping scenes they have seen in other drawings and doing it in a crude and unimaginative fashion.

 

[Kalamos]

The reason that all those people are telling you that the monstrous horror you have created is a "nice pic" is because they are spineless folk unable to muster criticism or they are your friends.

Spine?
I would say they lack time and commitment.
You can't compose proper critique on a whim.
Most people can't be bothered with posting at all, and you are asking them to elaborate further?

And, by your own reasoning, what are they expected to say, when faced with "sausage monsters"?
"You should improve your linework, chum"!?

The whole reasoning is flawed because lgz/joe did not define a target audience for his tutorials.
Better artists won't have much use for them, because they are likely to be over basic level.
Weaker artists won't be able to benefit much either, because they are under basic level.

Unless custom-tailored to take into account individual artists' flaws, most tutorials are just general do's-lists, with little space for insight and personalised help.

And you pointed out that some artists haven't shown any trace of improvement over the past few years, so tutorials wouldn't likely work for them at all.

As it stands, this whole discussion is just a big, convoluted, venting thread.
And it won't get any better, unless we suggest something easy and feasible.

Tutorials are just a tiny piece of a larger picture.

As far as non-artsy people not being in a position to criticise artwork that's a pile of bollocks. I don't need to have scored 400 goals for Real Madrid to tell when a footballer lacks the fundamental skills required to be a decent player.

Well, you can tell what's wrong in a drawing.
But you might not be able to tell how to make it right.

Criticism is telling bad from good.
Great criticism is explaining how to turn bad into good.

That is why not everybody is capable of offering MEANINGFUL criticism beyond "good" or "bad" anyway.
Just as not everybody is capable of drawing a captivating picture, playing a pleasing tune, and so on.

Problem is, if mods were to give a green light to earnest, but untrained critics, a lot of threads would turn into nasty flames, as self-appointed critics blunder blindly from goofy critique to the next.
Not to mention ill-meaning individuals, deliberately exploiting the critic's role to crush art and artist.

You say that weak artists choke the forum with bad art because nobody has the guts to tell them, and their friends are petting their egos anyway.

What can you do about that?
Seriously, if you claim that weak art is choking the forum, being blunt about it won't stop "those" weak artists from posting more.
You'll scare shy types out, and bolder guys will post even more or start flaming, to show you are wrong, and get some ego boosting from their friends.

The only way to deal with choked forums is to flush new threads down.
Pick a decent artist you like, and comment on his/her pics.
This will rotate older threads up, for newer users to see, and you'll get a sleeker more dynamic forum.

Sure, you risk resurrecting dead threads, but at least you are trying to keep the forum... lively.
And if weak artists are really CHOKING the forum by camping threads and bumping their own stuff, call a mod.

They can act behind the scenes, without making a scene.
Most of us can't much.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Let it go folks. While I appreciate the fact that a number of you have chosen to defend me from the trash talk, Kal and his ilk eat this up. Why do you think I haven't bothered coming back to respond to his and certain other posts in this thread. He and a few others will talk up some trash about me or my ideas hoping that I'll come back and try to defend myself or my actions (as if 15 pages weren't enough). If I don't, then he'll try to engage in some long winded conversation with someone else. He's just pissed because I didn't take his opinion into consideration (I guess the dozens I did take into consideration don't count) and didn't include him in the tutorial project, which now has a dozen of this forum's top artists on it. Given his attitude, I saw no reason to include him. He made it clear and continues to make it clear that tutorials are a marginal resource with little merit because I didn't "define a target audience." Given that he wasn't in on the meetings, I don't think he can make that call. Apparently the artists who signed up for the project also feel otherwise. At least enough for them to take the time and effort to create tutorials on their own time and without pay. As far as critiquing, Kal is at least right on that, it does take time and effort to give a good critique. If you care enough about the artists in this forum, you'll make the effort. No one can force you to do it, it's a matter of choice. Some artists are afraid that paying attention to the lesser/unskilled artists will take away from the attention they recieve. Maybe that is true, but it's also shamelessly self serving.
webmaster joe

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

in the tutorial project, which now has a dozen of this forum's top artists on it.

Annnnnnnnd I think thats the uppercut that ended this debate. K.O

LOL! Good job on amassing that kind of effort. I may have to think twice about your offer to include me in this. I didn't know it was going to be this successful so soon so I didn't want to get into it if only a couple were onboard. 🙂 Good form.

 

[Kalamos]

Let it go folks. While I appreciate the fact that a number of you have chosen to defend me from the trash talk, Kal and his ilk eat this up.

Fascinating.
You have support.
I have "my ilk".

Well, looks like I finally got a clique of my own!
Onward to victory!

😀

He's just pissed because I didn't take his opinion into consideration.
(I guess the dozens I did take into consideration don't count) and didn't include him in the tutorial project, which now has a dozen of this forum's top artists on it.

You should be more pissed.
You said I was one of the best artists the forum had, attitude aside.

You failed to convince me and the project is one "forum's top artist" short.

Given his attitude, I saw no reason to include him. He made it clear and continues to make it clear that tutorials are a marginal resource with little merit because I didn't "define a target audience."

Never said they have little merit.
But they are not the only answer to the perceived problem of "cack" art.

Besides, if you have problems with my attitude, I wonder how you actually manage to do business with the really nasty pieces of work out there.

Apparently the artists who signed up for the project also feel otherwise. At least enough for them to take the time and effort to create tutorials on their own time and without pay.

I am happy they can spare the money and the time.
Given you never asked me, you don't know how I felt.
You just assumed.
And I since I am not a native speaker, I won't indulge in "ass-uming" related jokes.

Some artists are afraid that paying attention to the lesser/unskilled artists will take away from the attention they recieve. Maybe that is true, but it's also shamelessly self serving.

First. "Receive".

Second, it was just part of the picture: Headsnap complained about forum being choked with weak art.
Giving it even more exposure goes against common sense.

Is it self-serving?
I welcome new jobs, new fans, more money and support.
Who doesn't?

Am I being jealous?
Either it is "cack" art, and it should be flushed anyway.
Or it is good art, and I have all rights to be jealous of good stuff.

...

I stated my opinion, and I can state it all over again - well... if I really have to.

I welcome dissent, especially from those artists who joined you and failed to show me the good of your plan.

Maybe they weren't as eloquent as you are.
And if it is such a good plan, why are they so shy about it?
I mean, if BAC, Corwin FT, Tomato Dragon, Scavenger, Bandito, Sl44nesh, Nessonite, Mau Russo, Cagri, and forgive me but my memory is failing me, really think it is good, why none of them dropped by and said: "Kal, shut up, he's for real"?

I've received only two tutorial related PMs, so far.
And only yours was happy about it.

You'll forgive me if I question your plans, your reasons, and above all, your style.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

And if it is such a good plan, why are they so shy about it?
I mean, if BAC, Corwin FT, Tomato Dragon, Scavenger, Bandito, Sl44nesh, Nessonite, Mau Russo, Cagri, and forgive me but my memory is failing me, really think it is good, why none of them dropped by and said: "Kal, shut up, he's for real"?

It doesn't mean they don't think its a good idea, you're merely taking their silence as an admission. Alot of these artists just don't want to get in the middle of this and involved in the more petty aspects of this topic. Its been like this in the past, where people would think that if anyone had anything to say about something, it would be these people and they could count on them to post, yet they're nowhere to be found but you know they're aware of the situation. Perhaps they figure they can help without having to be a part of this thread and commit to something without having to say so. Obviously thats how it is if he's managed to attain the support of the artists without them actually having posted here.

That's the reality of the situation both in his news of aqquiring the artists, and in the fact that very few artists actually posted here, and briefly if they did.

 

[Kalamos]

It doesn't mean they don't think its a good idea, you're merely taking their silence as an admission.

Silence is just silence.
We can't read minds to know what people think.
Would it hurt and let everybody know?

Perhaps they figure they can help without having to be a part of this thread and commit to something without having to say so. Obviously thats how it is if he's managed to attain the support of the artists without them actually having posted here.

What's so wrong in committing themselves?
Are they shy or what?
It's just a set of tutorials, not some kind of world-shattering enterprise.

They can PM me, and tell me: "Kal, lgz is for real, give him a break".
And I'll stop objecting.
It's not like I'm wishing him ill or anything.
I am interested in those tutorials as anybody else, but I am fed up with those manners of his.

So far he's talked down everybody who dared and object to him, and keeps telling me he knows I'd be happy if he failed.
Fail?
What the...? They are just tutorials!
How can they even fail!?

They work, great. Freebies.
They don't, well, too bad.

They should be community-created contents, aimed to help community itself, and yet they are not even born and already causing a lot of strife for no lasting good.

What's so special about them all that I should not even dare and object?

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I don't think that you're listening to what I said. I said maybe they don't want to get involved in this thread perhaps because of the subject matter (good art/cack art) makes them uncomfortable and they don't want to go there, or perhaps because they just want to avoid getting caught up in the back and forth arguing you and LGZ were doing. There are several obvious reasons why they, or many people, would avoid wanting to say anything about the thread or take part in it, whether because it's in their own best interests, they feel they have nothing to offer, or they feel they'll be attacked.

Be that as it may, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their thoughts on tutorials or what they're planning to do, if anything. Because the subject was brought up here, its not likely to be discussed because the other subject matter is too overwhelming, as are the posts dedicated to it.

Rather, perhaps these artists are merely waiting for when they release their respective tutorials and they'll let the tutorials speak for their intentions. It would allow them to not have to get into it. Its common sense to think that if they made a tutorial because they were asked to or volunteered to, that they want to be a part of what LGZ is doing regardless of whether they share his personal opinions. Wanting to helps is wanting to help. It doesn't mean you have to think a certain way or have certain opinions or positions.

This is thread and what happens to it and in it are irrelevant to their helping this cause in whatever way they can or want to, regardless of whatever point you or anyone else wish to make. Expecting them to step forward just to defend their point of view or validate yours or anyone else's (in public or in private) for YOUR pleasure, YOUR assurance, and YOUR peace of mind isn't necessary. You're the only one requesting it, it seems. Its like merely knowing they're helping him isn't enough for you and doesn't send a messege.

You need to have patience. There's nothing you can say or do thats going to alter it. This situation is above you now and it's moved on. Its no longer just up for debate, its action in progress, and nothing you say can any longer alter their decision to help if they're commited to doing so. Accept that, move on, and wait to see what happens. If you don't want anything to do with this you don't have to. There would be peace in that if you'd just let it go and do your own thing. It's what LGZ is doing and it's what they're doing.

 

[Kalamos]

I don't think that you're listening to what I said.

I am busy listening to silent people.

I said maybe they don't want to get involved in this thread perhaps because of the subject matter (good art/cack art) makes them uncomfortable and they don't want to go there.

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
Maybe they have better things to do than doing UNPAID work AND elaborating on it.

...

Why are you defending lgz joe anyway?
Are you working on those tutorials as well?
Hasn't he asked for your help?
Don't you qualify as a top forum artist as well?
Or did he forget to ask you, just as he forgot to ask me?

Quite the mastermind.
He left me out because he claims I am self-absorbed.
He left Dave out because he's "lost touch with the forum".
He left you out... why did he leave you out for, anyway?

There are several obvious reasons why they, or many people, would avoid wanting to say anything about the thread or take part in it, whether because it's in their own best interests, they feel they have nothing to offer, or they feel they'll be attacked.

Well, sure, it must be really nasty being told one's ideas have flaws.
I can see legions of artists quivering back from my merciless prose.

It's just a set of tutorials.
I said I am ok with them.
What should I do? Dance on my toes?

This is thread and what happens to it and in it are irrelevant to their helping this cause in whatever way they can or want to, regardless of whatever point you or anyone else wish to make.

If you don't mind, I decide what is relevant to me and what is not.

Either you are involved, and you can shed some light.
Or you are not, and you are not relevant to me.

Expecting them to step forward just to defend their point of view or validate yours or anyone else's (in public or in private) for YOUR pleasure, YOUR assurance, and YOUR peace of mind isn't necessary. You're the only one requesting, it seems.
You need to have patience. This situation is above you now. Its no longer just up for debate.

Well, considering that we [those MTJ artists and me] are partners in business, and I gave them extra free exposure over that fetish show, over Italian tv, I would expect some gratitude, and a word of explanation.

If I deserve none, I'll just plan accordingly.

Accept that, move on.

I'll decline your invitation.

 

[laughinggaszone]

He left Dave out because he's "lost touch with the forum".

I did not leave Dave out. You are the only MTJ artist that was not invited.
If you insist on trashing me, fine. But don't lie.
webmaster joe

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

@ Kalamos: Actually, he didn't leave me out. He had said he wanted me to handle some of the anime portion, along with other artists who would be doing the same thing. At the moment, I am declining. But this truth is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

This situation has evolved and isn't contained to this thread any longer. This thread could be locked or deleted right now and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. You can stand defiant all you want, but this thread will pass. It won't change anything, one way or the other. Artists don't need to come in here to give their opinions on "cack" art or critiques if they don't want to. If there are some that agree with you and are not telling you so, thats on them and thats their choice. Those that LGZ refers to are obviously helping because they want to. Nobody is doing this for money, as previously stated. If that many artists have already gotten onboard with his proposals and plans, then its enough for me to believe he's got something here thats viable and will work if that many people are determined to see it through.

If you feel you've been scorned or left behind or excluded or wronged and you don't want to take any advice that has been given to you, then I don't know what to tell you. It sucks to be you, I guess.

 

[Kalamos]

-> lgz

Eh, I dared and talked back to his majesty webmaster joe.
How insolent of me.

😉

I was not lying.
I did not say that Dave got left out as an MTJ artist.
I said he got left out because he had lost touch with the forum.

Where did I lie, exactly?
Are you recruiting artists from MTJ's pool alone?
What about ce?

You mentioned high caliber names from outside the community.
Who's lying?

I am just pointing out flaws and contradictions in your plans.
You first suggested giving art advice INSIDE art threads.
I suggested doing so in the How To forum.

You first discarded my idea, then suggested the same thing.

I mentioned it was mine all along, and you said I was deluding myself.


Seriously, how do you dare, sir?
As I said over PMs, we are not friends.
We are not business partners.
We never shared lunch or dinner.

When did I allow you to treat me like that?
You are not even paying me, so why should I put it up with your attitude?

Who's trashing whom?

Besides, I am a drawer.
People pay me to draw.
They care nil about my attitude as long as I can meet deadlines.

What about you?
What business of yours is my ego or attitude?



-> ce

Well, considering the other guys are working for us OUT OF THEIR OWN TIME, and WITHOUT BEING PAID, I'll take scorn any day.

😀

I'd just want them to drop a line, so I can congratulate on their generosity.

So far, I've only received bad press on lgz's plans.
If people really cared for this project of his, they'd tell me the truth, and we'd be over with it.

I guess silent is just silent, after all.

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

I did not leave Dave out. You are the only MTJ artist that was not invited.
If you insist on trashing me, fine. But don't lie.
webmaster joe

I don't think he lied so much as assumed that because you and Dave were not in agreement with some of your opinions, that Dave would automatically be disqualified and passed up. Although, in this instance, I can see how its as bad as lying.

Perhaps Kalamos thinks you're taking some kind of favoritist approach to this where you're only surrounding yourself with people that see things exactly as you do when the truth is you're looking for people with specific talents that could offer something useful if they helped, and you're selecting based on their individuality and skill level. Because of our private conversation and the extended offer to me, I know you're not bias as you've had problems with me in the past but still offered me a place in your plan. This should prove that you're not ousting anyone on a whim, nor are you ousting anyone.

Whether its through you (or rather, because of you) or they do it on their own, creating a tutorial(s) is a great chance, for anyone, to help others and perhaps learn something in the process.

 

[Kalamos]

I don't think he lied so much as assumed that because you and Dave were not in agreement with some of your opinions, that Dave would automatically be disqualified and passed up. Although, in this instance, I can see how its as bad as lying.

You should refrain from assuming things.
Maybe lgz is keeping you updated on who's working with whom.
Is Dave as well?

 

[laughinggaszone]

I don't think he lied so much as assumed that because you and Dave were not in agreement with some of your opinions, that Dave would automatically be disqualified and passed up. Although, in this instance, I can see how its as bad as lying.

He's making assumptions, not stating facts.

Perhaps Kalamos thinks you're taking some kind of favoritist approach to this where you're only surrounding yourself with people that see things exactly as you do when the truth is you're looking for people with specific talents that could offer something useful if they helped, and you're selecting based on their individuality and skill level. Because of our private conversation and the extended offer to me, I know you're not bias as you've had problems with me in the past but still offered me a place in your plan. This should prove that you're not ousting anyone on a whim, nor are you ousting anyone.

I have invited MTJ artists as well as artists outside MTJ and outside this forum. I don't have to supply Kal with a list. I contacted artists that I felt had something to contribute. I kept it to the top dozen or so (in my view) but artists should not feel that my choices should prevent them to contribute. I simply contacted artists that I knew were both skilled and capable of creating a tutorial (no easy task).

Whether its through you (or rather, because of you) or they do it on their own, creating a tutorial(s) is a great chance, for anyone, to help others and perhaps learn something in the process.

Exactly
webmaster joe

 

[Celtic_Emperor]

You should refrain from assuming things.
Maybe lgz is keeping you updated on who's working with whom.
Is Dave as well?

To be perfectly honest, I don't care whose talking to who and whatnot and I don't care to ask. All I know is he's making offers to different artists as he's made them to me. Its called scouting. I'm sure we've all heard of it.

How or why is none of my business or concern. All I know is that if an encounter ends in someone wanting to make a tutorial, we're slightly better off for any resulting effort on their part. Even if something should prove to be largely unused, we'd be filling the forum with good will and good intentions, and thats good enough for me.

 

[Kalamos]

I have invited MTJ artists as well as artists outside MTJ and outside this forum. I don't have to supply Kal with a list.

I did not ask for a list, but this tutorial thing is blooming into some kind of Sistina Chapel project.

Considering you guys keep calling me a liar - I don't know why, but you do - it is within my rights to ask for some kind of proof.

I have no problems with things turning a bit heated and personal.
I am just wondering what's so special about those tutorials, to warrant being called a "self-absorbed childish deluded jealous liar".

Eh! Maybe that's true, but my own is not the only fragile ego around.

😉

...

And seriously, stop saying that I would be happy if this whole thing failed.
How can a tutorial fail!?

Get a grip guys.
It works, hooray.
It won't, well, too bad, next time.

Just give it a cut with this paranoia talk.