Cheating and Affair website's online: wrong or right

[kis123]

Kis has been trying not to get involved in this, but.......

I'm having some problems with some of the opinions on this thread. What is the point of getting married if you're not going to completely commit to your spouse? Stay single and sleep with whoever you want, but I don't agree with brining that into a marriage.

I do not care about the circumstances of the history of marriage. Marriage in today's society is a union of husband and wife, and NO ONE ELSE! If you don't want the committment, DON'T GET MARRIED!! If you are unhappy and unfulfilled in your marriage, GET A DIVORCE!! People want it their way in today's society and will jump on any bandwagon that supports their thought processes, right or wrong. This aint Burger King, folks, having it your way can kill you nowadays.

Do any of you remember that AIDS is alive and well and is consuming thousands of people everyday? You're better off in a monogomous relationship. At least you have a better chance of staying healthy. You say you love your spouse, then commit to the marriage.

I guess I'm just one of those old-fashioned girls who equates sex with love. I cannot have casual sex, it's just too intimate for me to share any other way. I wouldn't make it if I had to take on multiple partners or share myself with several men.

Maybe I'm just too guilt-driven by my spritual (not religious-I hate that term) beliefs. I believe that old biblical concept of fidelity and monogomy. I am aware that is a New Testament concept, because polygamy is even in the bible.

As Steph said (love paraphrasing Steph), no one's going to be right or wrong on this one. I'm actually pleasantly surprised no one has killed anyone on this topic yet. But, I'll just stick to the old fashioned concept, thank you very much.

 

[BellaRisa]

Hi Kis...

I'd like to address your points from my point of view, if I may 🙂 :


"I'm having some problems with some of the opinions on this thread. What is the point of getting married if you're not going to completely commit to your spouse? Stay single and sleep with whoever you want, but I don't agree with brining that into a marriage."

The point of getting married? There are many, and they have little to do with sex. Marriage means so much more.

To spend the rest of my life caring and sharing with my beloved primary partner. There's no one else in this world that I want to live with, to be the father of my children, to share my home and my deepest thoughts and my checking account and retirement plan. He's the one I want when I'm sick or hurting, the first one I think of in the morning after our babies, and the one I kiss last and best before closing my eyes at night. The fact that we both enjoy being physically intimate and having close relationships with a *precious* and very VERY select few friends outside our marriage does nothing to harm our bond and level of commitment. Like many people, we simply don't equate monogamy with love, though we certainly respect those who do! We just find that other ways of showing dedication and devotion are more important to us. My sweetie works insane hours to provide for us, supports my businesses and is the *best* father I know; that means WAY more to me than which of my friends he kissed last week.

"I do not care about the circumstances of the history of marriage. Marriage in today's society is a union of husband and wife, and NO ONE ELSE! If you don't want the committment, DON'T GET MARRIED!! If you are unhappy and unfulfilled in your marriage, GET A DIVORCE!! People want it their way in today's society and will jump on any bandwagon that supports their thought processes, right or wrong. This aint Burger King, folks, having it your way can kill you nowadays. "

No offense intended, but this rather rigid thinking disturbs me a bit. If we only went by what the current society of our time seemed to want, my people would still be slaves and my sex wouldn't be allowed to vote. There's a reason we pride ourselves on freedom here. What works for one couple doesn't always work for another, nor should it have to. As far as marriage only being between a man and a woman, that's for another thread but I'm fine with debating that one too
😎 . I do want to respond to this though:

"If you are unhappy and unfulfilled in your marriage, GET A DIVORCE!!"

I think that depends on what's making you unhappy or unfulfilled. If you two truly aren't compatible and you're miserable, or if one of you is hurting the other or the children and it just can't be fixed, then the union should end. But if the only thing wrong is that you're not in complete harmony sexually-say you want to be spanked and he just can't do it-but you're in love and happy otherwise, I feel it's foolish and kinda ridiculous to break up. Things like that can be worked out, quite nicely, allowing you to stay together. In fact, with the pressure to be someone you're not removed from the situation, often the marriage is better than ever.

It's interesting that I often hear the word 'commitment' so often in the same conversations that say "do it this way or get divorced!" Bears thought.

"Do any of you remember that AIDS is alive and well and is consuming thousands of people everyday? You're better off in a monogomous relationship. At least you have a better chance of staying healthy. You say you love your spouse, then commit to the marriage. "

AIDS and other STD's are certainly a risk, but just as millions of single people use protection and education properly and safely to avoid such a fate, so do polyamorous folks. And again, for many couples commitment means things that are more important than mere sex. Knowing that my husband will be there beside me, loving and supporting me, when I'm 85 and a great-grandma, and knowing that he approves and respects ALL of me including my kinks and interests-that's a finer show of commitment to me than anything sexual. And what if truly committing means allowing more freedom? Or does commitment go out the window in that case?

"I guess I'm just one of those old-fashioned girls who equates sex with love. I cannot have casual sex, it's just too intimate for me to share any other way. I wouldn't make it if I had to take on multiple partners or share myself with several men."

Actually, you're not really old-fashioned, monogamy is pretty new in relation to humanity 😉 Having said that, You don't *have* to do anything that doesn't feel right for you; let me say again: there is nothing at all wrong with monogamy!! It's fine for those who prefer to live that way. But it's also fine for people who prefer more than one partner to live our way. The different types of relationships can co-exist quite nicely as long as no one is judging the other lifestyles 🙂.

"Maybe I'm just too guilt-driven by my spritual (not religious-I hate that term) beliefs. I believe that old biblical concept of fidelity and monogomy. I am aware that is a New Testament concept, because polygamy is even in the bible."

Ah, see...I could go on about this bit for hours, literally. The various rulers and scribes that re-wrote the Good Book over the centuries to fit their own whims add up to a lot of needless guilt and heartache. The Bible does everything from promoting slavery to speaking against mixed marriages to drowning folks for 'sinning'...forgive me if I don't base my life on it. My apologies to anyone I offend with that, because I DO respect Christianity; it's just not for me.

"As Steph said (love paraphrasing Steph), no one's going to be right or wrong on this one. I'm actually pleasantly surprised no one has killed anyone on this topic yet. But, I'll just stick to the old fashioned concept, thank you very much."

As I've said, monogamy is actually more new-fashioned 😛 . But again, your choice of lifestyle is way cool if it makes you happy and keeps you feeling good about yourself; by the same token, people who are different and need a different lifestyle should have the right to pursue that, be it polyamory or marrying your soulmate who happens to be the same sex or having an open marriage. Forcing people into a mold that doesn't fit is the WORST thing you can do to a society, history has told us that over and over. The current 'rules' were made by people who didn't even know us and had their own agenda; it's perfectly okay to adapt 🙂

Bella

PS. While I have stated that I understand and sympathize with why 'cheating' can happen in an otherwise good marriage, let me say that polyamory and cheating are VERY different things, on which I'll elaborate should anyone ask 🙂

 

[BellaRisa]

Interesting Article:

Responsible Non-Monogamy in Christian Marriage Affirmed By Theologians.

Embodiment: An Approach To Sexuality and Christian Theology, by James B. Nelson, Professor of Christian Ethics, United Theological Seminary

"Fidelity is a commitment of emotional and physical intimacy with the partner; it means caring for the growth and fulfillment of each as a person; it is commitment to growth of the marital relationship itself; it requires honesty, openness, and trust; it involves willingness to explore ways of opening self to the partner at the deepest level; it includes openness to secondary relationships of emotional and potential sexual expression but with commitment to the primacy of the marriage.

Personal growth for either wife or husband may well require other intimate friendships with consent and seeking the best for each other. Secondary relationships can serve not only personal growth but also and at the same time serve the marriage itself. Raymond J. Lawrence, Episcopal chaplain and marriage counselor, observes that transmarital sexual relationships would only be considered "unfaithful" if done for inappropriate motives such as revenge or to hurt the other. But, "the refusal to open oneself to secondary sexual relationships can also be based upon inappropriate reasons. An emotionally immature, religiously self-proving desire for purity and innocence might be one. Another might be the resistance to sufficient autonomy and the persistence in a clinging dependency upon the spouse - which is different from mature interdependency. The high degree of intimacy possible in a good marriage seems to depend in no small measure upon the relative absence of possessiveness and clinging dependency.

Rosemary Ruether presses this further. Historically, she notes, monogamy has been closely linked with the private property relationship of man over woman in patriarchal society. Ruether wonders if we have not lifted up the wrong priority by apparently prizing sexual exclusivity over enduring, intimate companionship and personal fidelity. We might have more of the latter if we were not so insistent as a church on sexual exclusivity."

In another of his books, Body Theology, James Nelson proposes we reclaim sexuality and become sex-affirming, understanding sexuality as a moral good rooted in the sacred value of our sensuality and erotic power without needing justifications that applied to a much different biblical culture.

 

[kis123]

Dearest Bella;

I allowed you your opinions without picking them apart. It's too bad you didn't see the need to afford me the same courtesy. You're allowed to run your marriage any way you and your husband agree to. My husband had better agree to monogomy or he can marry someone else!

I don't understand why people can't keep things simple. Many of these issues should be addressed before marriage. I know that people change in a marriage either through growth or manipulation. Example: my ex behaved a certain way prior to marriage. After the "I do's", he behaved any way he wanted. After ten years of it, I wanted out! After a five year separation, he realizes the error of his ways and wants back in. Isn't that just too bad?

Yes, I firmly believe that if people can't commit to each other in a marriage, they shouldn't be married. Why is this concept so hard for you to digest? I am more than uncomfortable with anyone I have a sexual relationship with having sex with anyone else but me. If he can't make that type of exclusive relationship, he can practice his beliefs somewhere else.

You see, I tried it your way once. I got involved with someone who was married. He even told me he loved me, and I bought into his lies. After a two year relationship, he decided to tell me he liked things just the way they were--his wife at home and me on the side to fulfill his sexual needs since she stopped having sex with him. Wanna guess what happens next? I cut him off because I felt used, cheap, and worthless. If he would've told me in the beginning what he wanted, I would've never considered getting involved with him.

My comment about being "guilt-driven" was a feeble attempt at sarcasm. I am very comfortable in my spiritual beliefs to the point that I haven't been inside a church in about three years. If you want guilt, shame, and mistreatment, go to many of the local churches in my area. I wanted a closer walk with my Creator, so I chose Him over my church. He says I should have sex within a marital relationship, and with my husband ONLY.

Those are my beliefs and values, and I'm not ashamed of them. You live your life your way, and I'll do the same.

By the way, people aren't being as careful as they should sexually. Not by a long shot! I know you are aware of the down-low movement in our ethnicity. You know the ones where the men marry and live heterosexually, but sneak around and sleep with other men as well? Black women are becoming the highest group affected by the AIDS virus. Someone needs to tell them your theories. I don't think they would agree with you.

All the articles on the Internet wouldn't convince me to change how I feel about fidelity in a marriage. Even if I never marry again, I wouldn't consider anything but monogomy in my relationships. It's very simple; if they want to sleep around, don't bring it to me!!!

 

[TklDuo-Ann]

That's a pretty strong response Ann, and there's certainly no need for pity. My friends/acquaintances are all great people.
Let me say two things:
1. I agree 100% that honesty is important in a relationship.
2. There's more than one area in a relationship that honesty/dishonesty can be applied to.

previous marriages, criminal history (arrests, prison time), STD's, number of offspring, child-support payments, debts, aliases....

the people I know wouldn't lie about these things in a relationship, but no way in hell would they express a desire for/ confess to sexual daliances, which I thought was what we were talking about here.

Yep. It's a strong response because it's a topic I feel strongly about. (It sickens me when I see people playing head games with one another and living a lie. In the end, it kills the validity of everything else.) That's why I made the blanket statement about honesty. If you get used to being dishonest in one area, you're much more likely to do so in others.

Are some matters more important or more difficult than others? Of course. But, again, dishonesty in one area leads to the same in others. It's a vicious circle. I never said that it would be easy to discuss things openly. But, people forget the fact that you actually have to put work into having a good relationship. Part of that is being real with one another. 'nough said.

Ann

 

[BellaRisa]

Kis,

"I allowed you your opinions without picking them apart. It's too bad you didn't see the need to afford me the same courtesy."


Um, I thought this was meant to be a public discussion area. Forgive me if you wanted to state your ideas without having them discussed, I didn't know.


"I don't understand why people can't keep things simple"

Because many of us aren't simple creatures 😎 .


"Many of these issues should be addressed before marriage. I know that people change in a marriage either through growth or manipulation. Example: my ex behaved a certain way prior to marriage. After the "I do's", he behaved any way he wanted. After ten years of it, I wanted out! After a five year separation, he realizes the error of his ways and wants back in. Isn't that just too bad?"

I'm deeply sorry that your ex mistreated you, but the situation you describe doesn't sound like the type of good marriage with communication and support that I champion. As for change, often we're not the same as a 20 yr old newlywed that we are as a 40 yr old spouse and parent. That can mean ending one's union, or doing what's needed to keep the commitment alive and well.

"Yes, I firmly believe that if people can't commit to each other in a marriage, they shouldn't be married. Why is this concept so hard for you to digest? "

Excuse me? Hold on a tick.

Nowhwere did I say that you're wrong to feel that people in a marriage should be committed sexually. In fact I supported your right to feel that way several times in my post, including:
"Like many people, we simply don't equate monogamy with love, though we certainly respect those who do! "

and:

"You don't *have* to do anything that doesn't feel right for you; let me say again: there is nothing at all wrong with monogamy!! It's fine for those who prefer to live that way."

Apparently, while I prefer to live differently, I both grasp and respect the concept, wouldn't you say?

Furthermore, you wrote:

"I firmly believe that if people can't commit to each other in a marriage, they shouldn't be married."

I feel the exact same way! I just have different thoughts on what commitment means. I care more, for instance, about a man who'll get up and feed the baby at 3am, still tells you you're gorgeous with 40 lbs of pregnancy weight, and gives up the boat he wants so he can put more money in your retirement fund than I do about sex. That's ME personally, and others who live as I do. It's *not* for everyone, nor should it have to be.


"You see, I tried it your way once. I got involved with someone who was married. He even told me he loved me, and I bought into his lies. After a two year relationship, he decided to tell me he liked things just the way they were--his wife at home and me on the side to fulfill his sexual needs since she stopped having sex with him. Wanna guess what happens next? I cut him off because I felt used, cheap, and worthless. If he would've told me in the beginning what he wanted, I would've never considered getting involved with him."

Um, no. Someone hurting you is hardly 'my way'. And I'm sorry that happened to you!

My 'way' has nothing to do with keeping someone waiting for years for a kind of relationship that ultimately wasn't going to happen. Those outside my marriage with whom I also share a degree of my life know *exactly* what to expect for our friendship and have no false assumptions. Heck, they know and are usually friends with my hubby! That's rather removed from the sad situation you describe-and again, I'm sorry that happened to you 🙁

"I am very comfortable in my spiritual beliefs...I wanted a closer walk with my Creator, so I chose Him over my church. He says I should have sex within a marital relationship, and with my husband ONLY."

As I stated before: while I may not share them, I am fully respectful of your beliefs 🙂

"By the way, people aren't being as careful as they should sexually. Not by a long shot! I know you are aware of the down-low movement in our ethnicity. You know the ones where the men marry and live heterosexually, but sneak around and sleep with other men as well? Black women are becoming the highest group affected by the AIDS virus. Someone needs to tell them your theories. I don't think they would agree with you."

My 'theories' involve the **utmost** care for one's body, and that of any and all of one's partners. True, monogamy is safer. So is abstinence, for that matter. As many, many people have proven and will continue to prove, safe sex is a good and sound alternative IF practiced correctly, which is not what you describe.


"All the articles on the Internet wouldn't convince me to change how I feel about fidelity in a marriage. Even if I never marry again, I wouldn't consider anything but monogomy in my relationships. It's very simple; if they want to sleep around, don't bring it to me!!!

No one is trying to change how you feel, only provide alternative points of view for those following the topic. Again, my apologies if your points and comments here on a public forum were meant to be read but not responded to and discussed. This thread has indeed remained civil, and I expect it will remain so, since we're all open minded adults who respect each other and other ways of thinking 🙂.

Bella

 

[kis123]

Bella:

Let's simply agree to disagree and go on with life, shall we? We can celebrate in being adults who stand by their own values and beliefs and just move on.

I never said sex was the only issue in a marriage. That's an immature way of viewing a marriage. To be exact, that's the absolute worst reason to marry. What happens when there's no sex, and we know that can happen in marriages for a variety of reasons? That's one of the reasons people cheat in the first place. And let's face it, some people out here should never marry because they'll cheat the first chance they get. They only marry to guarantee sex when they can't find it in the street elsewhere!

People should talk about these issues before they get married and make sure they're on the same page. Has anyone wondered what they're children would think if they found out their parents were sleeping around with other lovers? Mine wouldn't have been to happy to hear about it. I'm sorry but unless there was something wrong where I couldn't physically perform with my husband, I'd expect nothing less than complete fidelity from him. I'm not so self-centered that I don't understand he has needs I can no longer meet. That's different! Anything else I consider selfish and self-centered. I thought marriage was about the partner as well as self, isn't it?

I'm not settling for alternative lifestyles. I want something more traditional. If I can't completely satisfy a man sexually, maybe he should move to another bed. I'm not interested in any other way for myself. It's why I've spent the last several years by myself. I'd rather do that than have a man in my life that doesn't want a monogomous relationship. I'm not comfortable being another notch on some other man's bedpost. When he gets bored with me, he can just get up and leave and then what? Wait for the next man to do the same? Besides, I don't want to have to be concerned with what disease some other woman (or man) may be carrying.

I'm sorry my reasoning doesn't appeal to you and you see the need (with all the other opinions on this thread) to pick mine apart. I should be used to it by now because I've always danced to my own tune and took the road less travelled. I don't always see things the way everyone else does, and this topic seems to be no exception. But I will stand by everythng I've said as what's good for me and makes my life a peaceful one to live. I don't like anything over-complicated. It doesn't have to be complicated at all! It's just the way I see things and that isn't going to change any time soon if at all.

 

[EvlJester]

Anyway you look at it cheating is wrong!!!!! If you wanna sleep with more then one persong the dont be in a committed relationship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mgctouch]

Without wanting to offend anybody...

... I wish to add my two cents to this issue.

FIRST PENNY: Unless the topic of aditional sex partners is duscussed AND ACCEPTED by both the wife and the husband then I, personally, do not condone such actions. I have been on the losing end in a couple of relationships when my partner cheated on me and I never want to experience that pain again. This is why it is difficult for me to even think about fooling around with a married lady (I would not want to be the cause of pain for her or her husband if he were to find out) and I don't think that I could ever be unfaithful to my wife when I do get married.

In most marraiges, there is an exchage of wedding vows which promises a committment to each other FOR LIFE. Committments are easy to keep during the good times. It is during the trying times that the committments are so critically important. Keeping the lines of open communication and comprimise at the forefront will go a long way towards honoring the vows and making the marraige (A union between a man and a woman - not a man and 2, 3, 4.... women and not a woman and 2,3,4... men) work

While I am not about to criticize anybody for their own choices, I have voiced the reasons I cannot condone cheating.

PENNY 2: I am surprised that this issue has not been addressed yet. BROKEN HOMES.

In many marraiges, there are other innocent victims - the defensive, voiceless children who have no way to protect themselves and keep their families together. I can never condone cheating when inn ocent children stand to be hurt.

When a married father or mother makes the selfish decision to cheat at risk of destroying his/her family then it comes across as selfish and uncaring to me. When I hear the parent apologize to their child and say, "I never wanted to hurt you", I say "BULLSH*T! How were the children supposed to feel when they found out you cheated on their mommy/daddy? Happy?"

I believe that one of the main problems in the United States these days is the deterioration of the family unit. In this day and age of disposable marraiges where vows of life are replaced by vows of temporary convenience, the crime rates soar, the divorce rates soar and the quality of life continues to plummet.

Cheating is definately a thread in this fabric of life - a frayed thread.

I will now step off of my soap box.

 

[kis123]

mgctouch:

I did make mention in one of my posts about how my children would feel in such a situation. I mentioned that people are too selfish and wanting things "their way" and not being concerned who else gets hurt in the process.

I still say that if you don't want to completely commit to a marriage and be faithful, I say stay single and don't bother.

Anyone wonder what the Mayor of New Jersey is doing since yesterday? I wonder how his kids are doing?

 

[shdwcoder]

I'm not supporting 'cheating', but polyamory. There is a huge difference.

What do we have to look forward to?

Sharing, love, caring, support, and many many other benefits of having less restriction on how many people can share our personal lives at one time. Tell me, have you done any research on the polyamorous lifestyle, or talked to people who live this way? Have you looked at the history of man, and seen what a tiny blip on our timeline monagamy is? And how it became the norm in the first place?

I am *not* knocking monogamy, in the least. But there are other ways, and they work better for many people. Eventually our laws will change to support that.

Bella

Polyamory can work for some people, but as Bella said It is a long way from cheating. The premise of polyamory is based on the knowledge and consent of ALL parties involved. It becomes cheating when somebody in the equation is not given the opportunity to consent, or be heard or respected.
Karen

 

[Lazarus]

MMMMMmmmm...

See? I happen to believe that if you can't love the one you're with, you don't belong with them....

I love Meems to death, and always will....


You all talk about "cheating", and "unfaithfulness", and such?

Try this one on for size....

I find out that my ex-wife was cheating on me since 1999, possibly before.

She gave birth to a girl in 2000.

We divorced in 2001.

How would you all like living with the knowledge that your youngest daughter may not be yours?

THAT'S what cheating does.

'Nuff said.

 

[shdwcoder]

Re: MMMMMmmmm...

See? I happen to believe that if you can't love the one you're with, you don't belong with them....

I love Meems to death, and always will....


You all talk about "cheating", and "unfaithfulness", and such?



THAT'S what cheating does.

'Nuff said.

I couldn't agree more. Cheating is disrespectful, painful and can cause long term damage to the innocent party. Unfortunately, there will always be cheaters out there who put their own wants and desires before the needs of their partners. For the most part, they fancy themselves to be glib and accomplished liars and are often amazed if they are caught. They tend to be quick to shift the blame on their partners...."How can you even think of distrusting me like that?"......Defensive poses are common from these offending players.
It's like they think no matter what they have, they always deserve more. "If I'm good enough to have you as a partner, I'm good enough to do better for myself." Cheaters tend to be focused only on themselves. They often adopt a sense of entitlement, to have something comfortable and dependable at home while they search for someone "worthy of them". They can't love the one they're with....their hearts are taken. They only love themselves.

 

[BellaRisa]

Re: Without wanting to offend anybody...

>>Cheaters tend to be focused only on themselves. They often adopt a sense of entitlement, to have something comfortable and dependable at home while they search for someone "worthy of them". They can't love the one they're with....their hearts are taken. They only love themselves.<<

I agree that many people who cheat are this way, but many are not. Many love their families enough that they would rather fulfill their needs as quietly and discreetly as possible, while keeping their family together. Many are just friends with their outside partners, and dedicate themselves to their spouses and homelife in every other way. Again I am *not* condoning cheating, but it's just not as black and white as I often read.




>>I am surprised that this issue has not been addressed yet. BROKEN HOMES...<<

I find this to be an interesting aspect of the subject. There's a lot of discussion about commitment, and yet there are a myriad of all-or-nothing deal-breakers. As a mother of two with a great hubby who's a **wonderful** daddy, I can think of very few things that would cause me to leave him or seperate him from his babies. Ever. Least of all a matter of fidelity, which can be dealt with without divorce. I'm seeing far more emphasis on sticking to the 'rules' than about love, and TRUE commitment-doing your very best to make that marriage work at all costs, even if the means are unconventional and take a lot of work and negotiation and thinking outside the box of tradition.

As for what children think when they find out that mommy and daddy sleep around...whut? Personally my sexuality isn't knowledge for my children to have. They know that their parents have close friends of both sexes that love us all very much, and if anything that makes them even more secure 🙂. When the time comes to teach them about relationships, they'll be taught more of what they already know: that love is the most important thing, that love comes in many forms and can be shared quite nicely, and that love is very precious and should be cherished.

Bella

 

[BellaRisa]

Re: Whoa! Whoa! Gentlewomen in the courtroom here...

Um, Amnesiac sweetie?

I just got back to this thread today, I was out of town right after this and honestly forgot all about it until the other thread on this subject that started today. I was unsettled by the 'battle' reference and came back here, to a looong post trying to mediate what was really a pretty mellow debate as threads go. It wasn't a big deal, I'm sorry you felt it was heated-it wasn't, at least not on my end. I've had way more intense thread debates 'round here...this was just two varying opinions, and rather civil I thought! 🙂 Hope we didn't rattle you too much,

Bella

Normally I like it when battles take place on the forum, but not when it happens as a result of accidental misunderstanding. Now, Bella and KIS have had a few words out and made more than enough static to warrant a moderation intervention here.

Thanks to Jester for getting us back on the right track...as a reward, I command that he tickle Smurfy for two hours. Now that THAT is out of the way...

This thread WAS initially started as a commentary on the cheater's website and whether it was ethical to have one or not. I tried (and failed) to comment that the fact that the site exists lends for commentary not just on the state of marriage today, but also on the concept of marriage period...if people are driven to cheat after getting involved in a committed relationship, then somethin' ain't right. The site is the sign of a deeper problem not the SOURCE or the actual problem.

What is the point of getting married if you're not going to completely commit to your spouse?

Exactly kis, that's the point...the difficulty is taking the time out to see if the spouse can fulfill ALL the things that are wirth committing for. THIS is not encouraged in our society for image purposes, and THAT's a central part of the argument at hand.

I do not care about the circumstances of the history of marriage. Marriage in today's society is a union of husband and wife, and NO ONE ELSE!

Sure, but just keep in mind that today's society is influenced by YESTERDAY's society, which was influenced by THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY's society, and so on and so on...people always try to tell others that they have to remember where they came from, but we don;t seem to do that on a cultural level. Granted, the decision is up to each individual person, I just get a bit wary when I don't get a hint of research or background checking in a declaration.

Do any of you remember that AIDS is alive and well and is consuming thousands of people everyday? You're better off in a monogomous relationship.

You got a point there. Nobody's forgotten, but nobody has done anything! When it comes to outbreaks like this, the administration never seems to move too quickly, especially on STDs. The diseases are the ones that kill us and maim us, but instead of attacking the diseases, we attack sex. What that says to me is "Ah, we're too dumb and cowardly to actually try to stop the plague, so we're gonna take the easy way out and tell everybody to stop fucking." It's like getting mad at the bridge rather than the invading army that crossed it.

BUT the reason it got out of hand in the first place is, like you said, PEOPLE AREN'T CAREFUL. Recklessness is responsible for the major outbreaks, and that kind of ignorance is encouraged in a society that prefers image over reality...which is US.

I guess I'm just one of those old-fashioned girls who equates sex with love.

No you're not. Lots of people feel the same way, INCLUDING men, I might add. Remember that promiscuity has been around JUST as long as monogamy...they only shift in popularity, but neither one wins over the other.

I cannot have casual sex, it's just too intimate for me to share any other way.

Again, nothing wrong with that! THis is part of the problem!

What's happened here is that Kis and Bella, two people with two differnt perspectives on what a relationship requires, have accidentally hit it off wrong by mistaking one person's description as an endorsement and critique.

What Bella is trying to emphasize is that it is possible to have a relationship with criteria differing from the standards of Western codes and STILL be able to be happy and functional as long as no one is dishonest.

KIS is emphasizing that there is a substantial benefit in traditional modes of relationships, particularly that of monogamy, and that trying to settle for "provisos" is asking trouble to come looking for you.

I am trying to say that both of you are right!

THE central problem here is that pro-monogamy people in our society are interacting with pro-promiscuity people and signing themselves over to disaster because they are not allowed to talk about it. And THIS is what I was trying to point out: that the standard of Western relationships has been driven so harshly that it has all but drowned out the not-quite-harmful alternative (mostly by tying itself to religious laws)...and as a result of this, the alternative has become trendy and chic, which always invited imitators and advernturers and I think we ALL agree that these people cause the most trouble.

Now, I think people like KIS and Bella can BOTH be satisfied if we destroyed the image system of marriage, and advertized it truthfully: that it requires great work, commitment and devotion and that it requires a GODDAMN GOOD sight of reseach into it! That if you want to get married in the traditional way, you need to find someone that can satisfy you in ALL facets of need: physical, emotional and spiritual...don't settle for 2/3 or less, make sure you get it right, OR at least make a serious effort at it. And I think many people who would otherwise have greater flexibility in choosing relationships are conditioned to reject alternative because it is taboo NOT because they don;t actually want it.

So no one here is denouncing Kis or bella, but rather trying (and hopefully not in vain) to differentiate the two modes of thought and address that BOTH sides can be placated with honesty and division...that the two sides do not interact with each other in intimate ways. Where kis and I may grate is that the "traditional" qualities endorsing marriage also endorse the suppression of facts for the image of blissful matrimony, and its hard to focus on one without dragging the other with it.

Kis is right and Bella is right...and it is possible if society is willing to sacrifice its little perfection complex. That way we don;t have to sacrifice people's lives and happiness.

 

[Amnesiac]

BELLA CALLED ME SWEETIE! 😀

 

[BellaRisa]

BELLA CALLED ME SWEETIE! 😀

And once again there's green tea all over my screen 😛

You ARE a sweetie, a diplomat and a gentleman


Bella

 

[TummyDragon]

Personally...

I'm just very happy we don't adopt the mating habits of wolves or lions. I still be waiting to get laid, much less married. 😱

 

[ShadowTklr]

I always come into the really cool topics way late. 🙁

The answer to cheating is particpation.

I started my wife on subliminal message programming while she slept. She had these wellness tapes she listened to, and would often fall asleep with the headphones on. I simply replacecd her audio cassette with one of my own creation.

It took about a year, but one day, out of the blue, she comes to me and says "I want to have tickle fights with other women while you watch." She just shook her head in a confusing way and walked out of the room.

I knew that Psychology degree would come in handy one day!

😀