Christian values

[Knox The Hatter]

"I wholeheartedly support President Bush. He best exemplifies the spiritual values that we Christians look for in a leader."
-NPR interviewee

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
-Matthew 19:24 (King James Version)


So sayeth the Son of Man, Mr. President. I doubt very much that this has crossed your mind, though. After all, you took your time and cherry picked the facts in the intelligence that crossed your desk in regards to Iraq and WMDs, why wouldn't you cherry pick the scripture you would want to live by?

 

[sushi854]

I'm currently writing my Congressman about the deplorable state of morality in this country. Can anyone think of any other Bible passages that I could selectively use in order to outlaw behavior that really doesn't affect me but I just don't like?

 

[The Pianist]

Uhhh... exactly which spiritual values is he looking for? I'm not sure how he's running your country, but on a world level there a good level of selective hearing going on.

Also, who is the NPR? Cause I feel "we christians" is being a little too generalised.


To Sushi: The bible is full of stuff you could selectively use to throw stuff in his face... taken out of context it can be used to say almost anything. But theres still alot of things that don't need to be heard by themselves to serve as an argument.

 

[the_Baron]

sure sushi -

you can use the OT:

...you shall not lie with mankind as you lie with womankind; it is an abomination before the Lord.....


that doesn't affect you, and if you don't like homosexuality, you can use it as a means to suggest its prohibition.

oh, but wait - thats too clear. it really is a prohibition. nevermind. sometimes its easy to forget that God makes demands whether we "get" it or not.

 

[sushi854]

The Pianist: NPR stands for National Public Radio, which is actually used and listened to by liberals and conservatives. I didn't really understand your last comment directed at me.


To everyone else: Yeah, that passage is in the Bible. But there's this pesky thing called the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which the courts have interpreted to mean that Church and state should be separate. I'm not saying that churches or other religious organizations should perform or even condone gay marriages. Some biblical commands, such as "Thou shall not kill" serve the legitimate secular purpose of protecting individuals. What secular purpose would a constutitional amendment banning gay marriage serve? Again, I don't think it is the role of the government to legislate morality concerning private behavior that does not affect others. Besides, if we were to replace the Constitution with the Bible, the rich and greedy in this country would be screwed.

 

[Roseblossom]

...Yeah, that passage is in the Bible... Some biblical commands, such as "Thou shall not kill" serve the legitimate secular purpose of protecting individuals. What secular purpose would a constutitional amendment banning gay marriage serve?
...Besides, if we were to replace the Constitution with the Bible, the rich and greedy in this country would be screwed.

The bible-thumpers would just quote selectively, and ignore the rest - business as usual.

~Rose~

 

[tommytikl]

To everyone else: Yeah, that passage is in the Bible. But there's this pesky thing called the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, which the courts have interpreted to mean that Church and state should be separate. I'm not saying that churches or other religious organizations should perform or even condone gay marriages. Some biblical commands, such as "Thou shall not kill" serve the legitimate secular purpose of protecting individuals. What secular purpose would a constutitional amendment banning gay marriage serve? Again, I don't think it is the role of the government to legislate morality concerning private behavior that does not affect others. Besides, if we were to replace the Constitution with the Bible, the rich and greedy in this country would be screwed.

However, the State should not squash the Church as is happening daily...
Actually we did replace the Constitution with the Bible and look what happened...

 

[Kunzite]

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
-Matthew 19:24 (King James Version)

An interesting bit of trivia: the "eye of the needle" in the aforementioned passage was not, in fact, a reference to sewing needles. Many cities such as Jerusalem had small gates in the city walls, whose name translates as "the eye of the needle". It was normally possible for a camel to pass through such a gate, unless it was carrying a large stack of packs on its back. In that case, the camel was too tall to pass through such a low gate, and the owner would have to remove the packs before the camel would fit again.

As such, the passage could be interpreted as saying that the wealthy are not barred from entering the Kingdom of God, so long as they are detached enough from their riches that they can leave them behind when the time comes to pass through the gate.

 

[The Sean Man]

Church and state should be separate. There are many religions in this country that do not recognize the Bible as their source of religious knowledge, nor God as their chosen deity. To bring the Bible, christianity, the 10 commandments, etc., into the government is a slap in the face to people with other beliefs. Keep religion where it was originally intended...churches, mosques, and other places of worship.

The Sean Man

 

[Lazarus]

The Church....

has done alot of this to themselves, by the people they hire as "leaders".
*****************************************
"However, the State should not squash the Church as is happening daily..."
*****************************************

The state had nothing to do with the molestations on young men, and threatening them with the "wrath of god"....(I refuse to capitalize the g in God stated above, as the God I worship has NOTHING to do with the molesting and threatening of children.)

 

[crydun]

Re: Re: Christian values

An interesting bit of trivia: the "eye of the needle" in the aforementioned passage was not, in fact, a reference to sewing needles. Many cities such as Jerusalem had small gates in the city walls, whose name translates as "the eye of the needle". It was normally possible for a camel to pass through such a gate, unless it was carrying a large stack of packs on its back. In that case, the camel was too tall to pass through such a low gate, and the owner would have to remove the packs before the camel would fit again.

As such, the passage could be interpreted as saying that the wealthy are not barred from entering the Kingdom of God, so long as they are detached enough from their riches that they can leave them behind when the time comes to pass through the gate.

thanks so much for that interpretation Kun. I'd never heard it before. I always thought of the sewing needle. Puzzled me too. Thanks for the clarification and enlightenment.

 

[BigJim]

Like his father, George W. Bush is very selective about his faith. His father only professed to be a Christian because of the amount of votes it would get him. (At the same time proclaiming that he had no time for atheists, thus cementing himself even more in the Christian vote.) A family so steeped in skullduggery could never call themselves spiritual.

Anyone who says Bush represents good Christian values is either imbibing homemade moonshine in swimming pool quantities, or is looking for a grant.

 

[Kunzite]

Thanks, crydun. One of the things that make the gospels fascinating is Christ's ability to provide nested meanings by employing metaphors that would have had additional connotations to his target audience.

And speaking of arguments relating to context, I should mention the_Baron's quoted passage from the Old Testament concerning homosexuality. It is, in fact, one of the central tenets of Christian thoeology that following the death and rebirth of Christ, a new covenant with God was forged that superceded the old covenant formed between God and Moses on Mt. Sinai. As such, many prohibitions from the Old Testament, like eating fish on Fridays, are no longer in place because the new covenant doesn't require it. Recall that when Christ died, the veil in the temple was split in two, signifying mankind and God growing closer together. As such, many passages from the Old Testament, like the prohibition against homosexuality, just aren't relevant today. So, this is why I would caution against taking such harsh passages from the Old Testament literally. Many such passages seem absurd at first glance, but require some interpretation to understand.

 

[Limeoutsider]

"I wholeheartedly support President Bush. He best exemplifies the spiritual values that we Christians look for in a leader."
-NPR interviewee
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well, yea, the church likes to influence people, and, given Bush's intelect (based on most all of his comments that are quoted), he's one of the people who are easier to influence

 

[MrMacphisto]

Kunzite

Wisdom is such an elusive human trait... Your responses to this thread have both intrigued and astounded me with their insight. Thanks for clearing up some of these Biblical incongruities. I have to ask... is "Outside the Cave" a reference to Plato's "The Allegory of the Cave"?

 

[Knox The Hatter]

Kunzite's posts have provoked thought. This is the very best compliment Knox The Hatter will have for anyone in a medium like this one.

 

[Kunzite]

Thank you, MrMacphisto, Knox. I'm very glad people have enjoyed what I've had to share. With respect to MrMacphisto's question, my location is indeed a reference to Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Congratulations for catching it! I only hope it sounds humorous (as it was intended) instead of pretentious. All in good fun, everyone!