community help requested: my girlfriend offended a model

[jameshay]

Longtime lurker, first time poster. Was trying to have my girlfriend tape a paid session with a model for my birthday. I emailed the model in mid June, we agreed upon a date for us to fly out from California to meet her in Chicago, and I asked about logistics. The model didn't respond about logistics right away, so my girlfriend emailed her again 2 days ago (a couple weeks after our initial exchange) and it didn't end well 🙁 Right now we are trying to salvage a nonrefundable flight (dumb on our part, we'll know for next time) and wanted help in seeing
1) what possible options are there in Chicago? 2) what sort of etiquette we trodded on or violated and how we could avoid this in the future : we are new to the community and want to be positive, contributing members but feel a bit like bulls in a china shop!

Below is the exchange:

GF: Jul 7 (2 days ago)
Hey ****, just wanted to check in with you and see your thoughts on specific logistics for next Wednesday, am flying out this Saturday.
Thanks and hope you had a great 4th weekend!
Model: Would you be open to paying a deposit? I usually do that when I meet with someone for the first time.
GF: Talked about it with (boyfriend) and it seems reasonable -- as we are both dealing with internet folks here would you be ok with some sort of informal contract surrounding it?
For example, it will be refunded if you don't show and is applicable to the balance of what we pay you. Not refundable if I don't show.
Do you have Venmo? What amount are you thinking for a deposit?
Model: I use Zoho invoice and send out invoices and Stripe processes it. Is that ok? I was thinking $100?
GF: We aren't familliar with Zoho but just looked it up. It appears we won't need an account to be able to pay for something correct? Also, would you be able to write in what we are paying for in the invoice and what the conditions are?
Apologies for being kind of a stickler about this, trust you're a good person but trying to do due diligence.
Model: If I write anything like that on it, Zoho or Stripe will surely ban my account. :/ Payment processors are real strict like that. Have you guys done anything like this before? Any references?
GF: We're pretty new to this, sorry. What if it's something vague like "deposit for work to be done on 6/15" and conditions for it?
Model: I don't know if there is a place to write anything but if there is, I can write that, sure.
** Model sends invoice saying "deposit for work to be done on 6/15 **
GF: Could you add in the following too? If it makes sense to you.. Deposit is applicable to the balance of payment for work. Refundable if meeting cancelled by merchant. Not refundable if client doesn't show or cancels.
Model: I already sent it and can't edit it. It charges me every time I make an invoice. :/
GF: Not sure if this is applicable, but have you seen this?https://www.zoho.com/invoice/help/invoice/edit-invoice.html
GF: Hope that didn't sound condescending -- just that I work in software (particularly ERP systems like zoho) and found it confusing that invoices not be editable
(a day passes. GF is leaving in 2 days for Chicago.)
GF: Hi *****, I apologize if I offended you earlier. I'm scheduled to fly to Chicago this coming Saturday morning, please let me know if we can work something out and I'll arrange accordingly. Again, we are happy to pay a deposit with some sort of stipulation of terms. Thank you!
Model: You can still pay the invoice I sent.
(checks invoice. no conditions or edits)
GF: Were you unable to edit it? We are happy to pay a deposit with terms/conditions.
GF: Sorry, email is not ideal communication 🙁
I'm not sure if the issue is that you are unable to edit the original invoice, are offended by my sending you the help documentation, or if we're not on the same page with the actual terms and conditions?
Or none of the above and I'm just totally missing something.
Model: If you want to do the session, please just pay the invoice I sent for a deposit. This is ridiculous. I've been doing this for 10 years, I'm very reputable. I'm starting to think that we aren't a good fit.
GF: Hi *****, I'm sorry I upset and offended you, it definitely wasn't my intention. I'm not questioning your reputation. I'd really like to do this for my boyfriend, and also am stuck with plane tickets to Chicago at this point -- I think we had a miscommunication that can be easily worked out so I hope you'll read on and work with me on this..
I was approaching this like I would a business transaction, with exchange of money, if the receipt of product is not immediate, I like to be able to have informal contract just to cover my bases. Deposits for renting equipment, hotel rooms, renting apartments, etc all include this sort of contract. I've heard of enough stories of people being screwed out of security deposits to always try and be mindful of this, no matter how informal the exchange is and how reputable the "merchant" is. I get that you're a bit of a celebrity in this world and it's maybe insulting for me to ask you to include this info in the invoice but that's why I did. I'm unfortunately not very familiar with this area of fetish, and therefore your prominence in it, so I hope that explains where I'm coming from.
At this point, I guess I'm just trying to appeal to your goodwill to try and talk this out with me. If it's between paying the invoice as is and wasting tickets to chicago, I'll probably go with the former anyway because sunken costs. Sorry for the novel, and if you got to here, thanks for reading!
Model: I'm just very busy and I don't have time for this. I am working with a phone because I'm on the road. Sending invoices are a pain with my phone and I can imagine that editing one would be even more of a pain. Even typing this is a pain. I'm just annoyed and I don't want to do the session anymore.
GF: Got it, totally understandable and sorry about the trouble I caused. I didn't realize you were permanently on a phone and that communicating/invoicing was nontrivial!

 

[daddy]

The way I see it your etiquette was perfect and more then acceptable.

peace out,
daddy

 

[Redmage]

I'm not a tickling model, but I have worked on the fringes of the sex industry, and I know a lot of people in it. I see a few problems.

First is insisting on a description of "services rendered" in the invoice. That's just not how it's done. Payment processors like Zoho are phobic about anything having to do with sex, because they think they'll be liable for facilitating prostitution or some such nonsense. So if they get any strong hint that one of their merchants is involved in sex work, they ban the merchant. The model tried to tell you that, but you kept pushing.

Then you got both insistent and demanding. She did what you asked her to do the first time, but then you went back and asked her to make a bunch of changes. You were starting to cost her money - as she told you Zoho charges her every time she generates an invoice. She was already in the red for the job on the first invoice, and there you came insisting that she spend more money to do something she'd already indicated she wasn't comfortable with, and she hadn't seen a cent from you.

Eventually she just got tired of dealing with you. From her perspective you began to look like a bad risk.

If you manage to find another model in Chicago, this time ask her for references and check them. That's the standard way of doing things in the industry, not written contracts that can get a model in trouble.

 

[Fink]

I'm not familiar with model hiring but to me this looks perfectly respectful, reasonable & sensible from your girlfriend anyway!

 

[P[a]pi]

It's fetish stuff. There is no way to do it without risk if money is involved. When I commission an artist on deviantart I send them money and hope they draw what I requested lol. Usually they are "celebrities" in the community with many completed commissions. If there was a way to check that this model has done this before, then I would have checked that, sent the money, and hoped for the best. Just like she's hoping for the best that you 2 don't kill her once she's tied up. It's a two way street of trust.

Last thing, contract or not, if she didn't show up you guys were going to be out for the plane tickets and any other travel expenses, so I don't understand why you were so aggressive about not losing 100 bucks. What if she edits the contract exactly how you like, but still doesn't show? Would you ask the website for 100 bucks? If they say no, are you going to sue the website and/or the girl? You just gotta except some risk.

Super last thing, in chicago, anywhere really, you can use craigslist to find a model for a session. Taping it might be rough, but pictures would be fine. I hope you 2 can work it out, and everything new is a learning experience. And.. happy bday! lol

 

[Wolf]

Seems like the back-and-forth of the logistics became more of a hassle to her than it was worth. From what I know from second-hand information, this isn't an unusual occurrence in the fetish industry, and to her credit, she broke it off before taking any money from you.

 

[maniactickler]

Years ago I sent money through Paypal and got screwed for $400 with an escort coming in from another state. I wont give any deposits anymore.

 

[TicklingTips]

I don't think she was too rude or pushy, just clear. Just remember though there is no such thing, in reality, as an 'informal contract '. It's either a contract or it isn't. In this case it doesn't look like you would fulfil the conditions for a contract to exist so just be aware that nothing your girlfriend wrote is actually binding on the model.

 

[KaBand]

Cut your losses and move on. Not for nothing, but whats wrong with you? You have a gf and your asking her to film you tickling another female? I can't imagine that going over well after the fact. The model just sounds annoyed with you guys and while I think you were sincere you might have come across as too eager like some on here and it probably gave her a negative taste. Just let it go man and move on. Be happy with what you have.

 

[ReyaFet]

Bingo! You nailed it.

I'm not a tickling model, but I have worked on the fringes of the sex industry, and I know a lot of people in it. I see a few problems.

First is insisting on a description of "services rendered" in the invoice. That's just not how it's done. Payment processors like Zoho are phobic about anything having to do with sex, because they think they'll be liable for facilitating prostitution or some such nonsense. So if they get any strong hint that one of their merchants is involved in sex work, they ban the merchant. The model tried to tell you that, but you kept pushing.

Then you got both insistent and demanding. She did what you asked her to do the first time, but then you went back and asked her to make a bunch of changes. You were starting to cost her money - as she told you Zoho charges her every time she generates an invoice. She was already in the red for the job on the first invoice, and there you came insisting that she spend more money to do something she'd already indicated she wasn't comfortable with, and she hadn't seen a cent from you.

Eventually she just got tired of dealing with you. From her perspective you began to look like a bad risk.

If you manage to find another model in Chicago, this time ask her for references and check them. That's the standard way of doing things in the industry, not written contracts that can get a model in trouble.

 

[ReyaFet]

Yes, you also nailed it. 🙂

Seems like the back-and-forth of the logistics became more of a hassle to her than it was worth. From what I know from second-hand information, this isn't an unusual occurrence in the fetish industry, and to her credit, she broke it off before taking any money from you.

 

[Park CollegeO]

Bummer that this happened, although if you want alternate options in chicago, I suggest you contact Mistress Desiree from the Continuum

her e mail is [email protected]

the equipment there is top notch, you can film whatever you want (it used to be a studio on clips4sale), and she is a great lee and ler and there are a lot of other options as women that tickle and get tickled. Very safe place as well

Good luck

 

[Park CollegeO]

Another thing to ask you, you are in california, why would you want to fly to chicago to do that. Granted chicago has a lot of action, but Cali has a lot more and i'd consider it neck and neck with NY and Chicago with regards to finding the type of thing you're seeking (coming from someone having done similar stuff in both states). It's clear from your writing that you weren't planning a trip to chicago for other purposes, so i'm guessing maybe it's the model in question you were interested in. If that's the case and she really is reputable, i could see why she might take it personally and a)decide the chemistry is already off between you guys to do a session because of the constant rework she had to do (editing invoices bla bla), and b) your tentativeness might have scared her off as being a potential time waster.

Just a heads up, If the model is reputable and has a good presence online (twitter, her own website, etc...) chances are she won't risk standing up a person who has deposited money as such things might ruin her career.Although i can understand why some people would stay clear of deposits, but if it's a case like yours and you are seeking this model in particular and those are her rules, then that's that.

If you truly are planning on making it to chicago, i can help you set up something that doesn't require a deposit, just send me a PM and if you are interested and i'll send you a bunch of contacts i have from there that you can get in touch with and set something up.

 

[ticklemepls]

Well she held her cool much longer than I would have! "Celeb" or not in our world- it IS a business transaction and there shouldn't be any issue with making sure t's are crossed and I's dotted. I honestly see nothing wrong with anything written here- but maybe I just think the same way as your gf? Seems to me model was making excuses- to wish gf tried to help resolve----- ending in drama queen model with stick up her butt. Shake it off- I'm sorry you're stuck with tix to Chicago but seriously it's a kick ass city!!

Ps I do believe there are some fetish clubs there- that might be an option

 

[C.A.B.]

Flakes flake.

 

[SirenSimone]

I've seen play partners from out of town who book a session only once they're in town. As far as I'm concerned, getting a deposit isn't important until they actually arrive at their destination.

I can see the model getting irritated and it's hard to say what just made her turn off because your girlfriend was in fact, really civil. Still, if anyone felt uncomfortable (you or the model), either party should be able to bow out. It sucks but compatibility is such a big thing in the fetish world and with me, even more so with tickling.

 

[Redmage]

It's interesting to see the disparity in viewpoints between those who've worked in the industry and those who haven't. It's useful to remember that such a difference of understanding exists between those two groups.

 

[Wolf]

It's interesting to see the disparity in viewpoints between those who've worked in the industry and those who haven't. It's useful to remember that such a difference of understanding exists between those two groups.

Definitely. It's easy to forget that people in the industry, whether they're "into" a particular fetish or not, are doing business. It sounds like the model got the impression this was going to be a problematic gig at best, and wasn't worth her time.

 

[jameshay]

Wow crowdsourcing for the win! Thank you all for your helpful feedback!

In response to requests for suggestions:
Thank you so much for these! I went with the first PM I got about a model in chicago and it's working out great, I'm excited to see the results 🙂 Gf was also able to get in touch with a local group of fetishists (she's not actually into tickling).. also excited to hear about those results.

In response to requests for ideas of where we went wrong:
First off, I think it's fantastic that you all are such an active, diverse (in terms of opinion) community, and I am grateful for the hospitality you guys showed by engaging in discussion over something I requested. While this exchange was happening, my gf (an avid redditor) tried to crowdsource her decision-making and judgement calls to the tickling subreddit (under not her usual reddit handle.) They were really nice and welcoming over there but definitely seem to have less membership and diversity in opinion (link for reference)
https://www.reddit.com/r/tickling/comments/3crskv/is_this_sort_of_exchange_normal_should_i_just_go/
As an aside, I wonder how much overlap there is between that subreddit and these forums?.. anyone?

It sounds like there are some varying ideas of what industry standard is, which I guess is unsurprising as it's an industry with gray-ish legality and therefore limited "official partylines." Also, as Wolf/Redmage pointed out, each person's role in the ecosystem definitely colors your viewpoint. (I guess more generally, such is the relationship between experience and opinion.)

P[a]pi and Mr-Tickle: you make a good (paraphrased) point about "well what actually would happen if she included terms and conditions and then renegged them?" From a practical standpoint, you're completely right, we wouldn't have bothered to go to small claims court or anything. But I think at this point my gf (bless her heart, a bit of a prude) was weirded out by the vague-seeming responses to why the invoice couldn't include them in the first place.. (hence her posting to reddit), which is why she zeroed in on it.

Redmage/Wolf/AddieJuniper's responses have given us much better idea of where we messed up with her, many thanks for offering these and we are definitely the wiser!

Intention clarification

As an aside (have said this privately but do want to put it out there), please don't message me for the name of the model.. it wasn't my intention to seek retribution/hinder anyone's business or anything. SirenSimone, I completely agree about chemistry and compatibility: neither of us fault her at all for bowing out. AMKaBand, the idea was for my gf being tickled by the model, not me tickling the model. And yes I am super lucky to have my gf 🙂. As for my persistence, I guess the gf and I are both geeky scientists at heart and when something happens that we don't understand we doggedly try to understand why it happened. The way I see it, it's like we went to a new country, offended a local person, realized we had a lack of information about the country's customs, and are trying to get more information about it (which you all have helped tremendously.) I guess the preachy hippy in me would say it's less about a judgement of who was right/wrong and more about why we upset her and how transferable her upset-ness would be to a different person.

 

[DontAskJusTckle]

Here are my observations for whatever they're worth to you.

When discussing a business proposal, it is certainly very important to be polite and cordial. GF certainly had that covered. Throughout the conversation, her dialogue consistently maintained an impressively high level of civility and amicability. Above and beyond what was required, even.

I think the difficulty resulted from this being your first time at such a thing. Your expectations would probably have been reasonable if you were dealing with a florist, a caterer or a DJ. However working with models on such projects as this one no doubt requires a little more discretion and little less of the formalities associated with more G-rated businesses. This isn't your fault. You were simply going by what you knew. I could easily see myself making the same mistake.

 

[eugene_mast]

Waiiit. He never demanded words "services rendered" just suggested some non-sexual sounding stuff that was also accurate..
He also never asked her to make a bunch of edits.. he was clear from the beginning what he wanted in the invoice and when she leff them out, he politely asked her to include them again instead of saying she messed up ..

For the few people saying "that's just how models are".. I mean she changed her story from "i'll get banned" to "I can't edit it" to "I just can't be bothered to edit something on my phone and how dare you ask me" Fetishist or not, model or not, how is that excuable for anyone above the age of 10??

I'm not a tickling model, but I have worked on the fringes of the sex industry, and I know a lot of people in it. I see a few problems.

First is insisting on a description of "services rendered" in the invoice. That's just not how it's done. Payment processors like Zoho are phobic about anything having to do with sex, because they think they'll be liable for facilitating prostitution or some such nonsense. So if they get any strong hint that one of their merchants is involved in sex work, they ban the merchant. The model tried to tell you that, but you kept pushing.

Then you got both insistent and demanding. She did what you asked her to do the first time, but then you went back and asked her to make a bunch of changes. You were starting to cost her money - as she told you Zoho charges her every time she generates an invoice. She was already in the red for the job on the first invoice, and there you came insisting that she spend more money to do something she'd already indicated she wasn't comfortable with, and she hadn't seen a cent from you.

Eventually she just got tired of dealing with you. From her perspective you began to look like a bad risk.

If you manage to find another model in Chicago, this time ask her for references and check them. That's the standard way of doing things in the industry, not written contracts that can get a model in trouble.

 

[xionking]

Business is business. Ediquette is a two way street and it looks like she just blew u off instead of finding a way to resolve the payment issue.

 

[realista_magica]

I'm not a tickling model, but I have worked on the fringes of the sex industry, and I know a lot of people in it. I see a few problems.

First is insisting on a description of "services rendered" in the invoice. That's just not how it's done. Payment processors like Zoho are phobic about anything having to do with sex, because they think they'll be liable for facilitating prostitution or some such nonsense. So if they get any strong hint that one of their merchants is involved in sex work, they ban the merchant. The model tried to tell you that, but you kept pushing.

Then you got both insistent and demanding. She did what you asked her to do the first time, but then you went back and asked her to make a bunch of changes. You were starting to cost her money - as she told you Zoho charges her every time she generates an invoice. She was already in the red for the job on the first invoice, and there you came insisting that she spend more money to do something she'd already indicated she wasn't comfortable with, and she hadn't seen a cent from you.

Eventually she just got tired of dealing with you. From her perspective you began to look like a bad risk.

If you manage to find another model in Chicago, this time ask her for references and check them. That's the standard way of doing things in the industry, not written contracts that can get a model in trouble.

I agree with this. They said all I needed to say.