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Conspiracies don't just confine themselves to politics........ Try the medical world.
- Thread starter BigJim
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Limeoutsider
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Thats ok, I think there's also a conspiracy going on in public schools The ones I went to, in 4th grade or so, the teacher would say "Im not going to teach you Square roots because you'll learn that later in higher math" Once you got to high math, the teacher said "Im going to skip the chapter on square roots, you all probably learned them in 4th grade or so"
desdemona
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Whewwwwwwwww....
Jim,
You've obviously spent a great deal of time doing your research. I don't want to blow you out of the water, but there are some holes in your homework, darlin'. I can't speak about human conditions, but I can easily offer parallels from FIV (Feline Immunodeficiency Virus) in the veterinary world. I'm not doubting your heartfelt admonitions of the pharmaceutical companies (far too many get rich quick schemes for my taste), but you don't have all the facts straight about immunology. I'm not a professor or an expert, but I can fill in some of the picture for you. For instance, vaccines are designed to produce antibodies against viral diseases. You're correct when you ascert that people with positive antibody tests have protection - but that's not the whole picture. Antibodes are present if you have successfully fought/cleared a disease or if you have been vaccinated for said disease. We can't distinguish a dog with distemper from one who has been vaccinated previously. But when you talk about viruses, what matters really isn't the presence of antibodes, but the LEVEL of antibodies. Or more precisely, a rising level of antibodes called a titer. Titers rise as viral particles are replicated and produce more cells which carry antibodies. I have no idea how the medical profession views AIDS and its diagnosis. I do know, that if I vaccinate a cat for FIV and it escapes from its owner and is tested elsewhere, it will test positive for up to one year. The sad thing is, shelters usually kill all positive cats since the virus is contagious. It doesn't mean the virus always results in fatal syndromes. And in real life, I always retest a positive, asymptomatic cat - say 12 weeks later. Or I do more sensitive testing. I can't speak for what the MD's do. I do know that because of ongoing feline research, the world is still getting a better picture of what retroviruses are and how they work. Email me if you want to continue this (long winded!) discussion.
Des
Jim,
You've obviously spent a great deal of time doing your research. I don't want to blow you out of the water, but there are some holes in your homework, darlin'. I can't speak about human conditions, but I can easily offer parallels from FIV (Feline Immunodeficiency Virus) in the veterinary world. I'm not doubting your heartfelt admonitions of the pharmaceutical companies (far too many get rich quick schemes for my taste), but you don't have all the facts straight about immunology. I'm not a professor or an expert, but I can fill in some of the picture for you. For instance, vaccines are designed to produce antibodies against viral diseases. You're correct when you ascert that people with positive antibody tests have protection - but that's not the whole picture. Antibodes are present if you have successfully fought/cleared a disease or if you have been vaccinated for said disease. We can't distinguish a dog with distemper from one who has been vaccinated previously. But when you talk about viruses, what matters really isn't the presence of antibodes, but the LEVEL of antibodies. Or more precisely, a rising level of antibodes called a titer. Titers rise as viral particles are replicated and produce more cells which carry antibodies. I have no idea how the medical profession views AIDS and its diagnosis. I do know, that if I vaccinate a cat for FIV and it escapes from its owner and is tested elsewhere, it will test positive for up to one year. The sad thing is, shelters usually kill all positive cats since the virus is contagious. It doesn't mean the virus always results in fatal syndromes. And in real life, I always retest a positive, asymptomatic cat - say 12 weeks later. Or I do more sensitive testing. I can't speak for what the MD's do. I do know that because of ongoing feline research, the world is still getting a better picture of what retroviruses are and how they work. Email me if you want to continue this (long winded!) discussion.
Des
Dave2112
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Another conspiracy in the medical world concerns the #1 reason why marijuana is illegal. Many decades ago, it was legal and used to (succesfully) treat many ailments. The drug companies lobbied Washington hard, coming up with "data" to support thier claim. Why have something out there that can be grown by anyone, when we can make a pill for it, and charge $180.00 a bottle?
The one thing I laugh about is the "gateway drug" theory. They phrase it like this: 70% of people who smoke marijuana move to harder drugs. Here's the reality of the research: 70% of people already taking harder drugs in this study have smoked marijuana. A little twist of words and you represent a whole different finding that suits your needs.
The one thing I laugh about is the "gateway drug" theory. They phrase it like this: 70% of people who smoke marijuana move to harder drugs. Here's the reality of the research: 70% of people already taking harder drugs in this study have smoked marijuana. A little twist of words and you represent a whole different finding that suits your needs.
And try this one on for size as well!
http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,8150,913400,00.html
http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,8150,913400,00.html
desdemona
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Shots...ouch
A few words about immunization...
Is it overdone? Perhaps...the vet community is certainly looking into changes (i.e. triannual vaccinations for those at pets at minimal risk). But when we have certain diseases that are deadly and preventable.....shudder...I'd hate to see someone lose a beloved companion because they didn't get a simple rabies booster (not to mention the painful innoculations for post-exposure cases in humans). Consider yourself lucky, BigJim, that rabies isn't an issue in the UK.
Have I seen vaccinations go bad? Yep....and I hate it. I've seen animals have severe anaphylactic reactions to shots (one subsequently euthanized less than 24 hours later...I still get emotional everytime I recall it). We also have these lovely fibrosarcoma tumors showing up in cats who receive certain annual boosters. I love explaining those to the client...
But I've also seen puppies die from parvo...a relatively new disease (emerged in the late 70's/early 80's). Simple vaccines given properly can do a lot to eliminate this one...it still saddens me when I see a parvo positive pup.
I can't speak much about human innoculation. I know I'll stay current on tetanus and keep having my own rabies titer checked just in case. From people I work with, I've heard that children's immunization shots can be quite frightening...especially when they have to sign a waiver acknowledging that they have read all of the (known) possible side effects. One of my bosses almost backed out of having her daughter immunized until she was informed by the schoolboard no shots=no school. Any way around that one?
A few words about immunization...
Is it overdone? Perhaps...the vet community is certainly looking into changes (i.e. triannual vaccinations for those at pets at minimal risk). But when we have certain diseases that are deadly and preventable.....shudder...I'd hate to see someone lose a beloved companion because they didn't get a simple rabies booster (not to mention the painful innoculations for post-exposure cases in humans). Consider yourself lucky, BigJim, that rabies isn't an issue in the UK.
Have I seen vaccinations go bad? Yep....and I hate it. I've seen animals have severe anaphylactic reactions to shots (one subsequently euthanized less than 24 hours later...I still get emotional everytime I recall it). We also have these lovely fibrosarcoma tumors showing up in cats who receive certain annual boosters. I love explaining those to the client...
But I've also seen puppies die from parvo...a relatively new disease (emerged in the late 70's/early 80's). Simple vaccines given properly can do a lot to eliminate this one...it still saddens me when I see a parvo positive pup.
I can't speak much about human innoculation. I know I'll stay current on tetanus and keep having my own rabies titer checked just in case. From people I work with, I've heard that children's immunization shots can be quite frightening...especially when they have to sign a waiver acknowledging that they have read all of the (known) possible side effects. One of my bosses almost backed out of having her daughter immunized until she was informed by the schoolboard no shots=no school. Any way around that one?
Yep, inform the school board that they're acting illegally and illogically. Further that by showing them offical WHO figures that prove infectious diseases started to decrease before the introduction of so-called immunisations. ID's decreased because of the use of anti and pro-biotics, better sanitation, better nutrition and better biological education.
I know some vaccination go spectacularly bad Des, but I wasn't really talking about them. I'm talking more about the ones that occur in most people who get them. Namely that the immune system takes a horrendous battering and the child gets infected from things that their t-cells would normally make mincemeat of. The more gruesome stories like blindness, paralysis and brain damage are the exception rather than the rule.
I know some vaccination go spectacularly bad Des, but I wasn't really talking about them. I'm talking more about the ones that occur in most people who get them. Namely that the immune system takes a horrendous battering and the child gets infected from things that their t-cells would normally make mincemeat of. The more gruesome stories like blindness, paralysis and brain damage are the exception rather than the rule.
desdemona
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Well, I think innoculations are mainly needed for starting high school (and maybe again for university). Since my boss's daughter is going to be a junior, I don't think she required more innoculations. But I disagree with your argument on that point Jim. I don't credit things said about innoculations - I'm more worried about the random adverse reactions that can happen to an individual. I have to weigh the pros with the cons - risk management so to speak. Thoughts?
Well there's always the argument (supported by the official figures) that infectious diseases were declining into obscurity due to more powerful immune sysems caused by better health, nutrition and sanitation. Vaccinations DO cause the body to produce antigens, yes. But they also create bloody murder within the rest of the immune system. My problem in this debate is that it extends into the whole of my *cue fingers twirling at temples and eyes rolling* conspiracy theory. I think much safer ones could be designed but purposely aren't because of the agenda. I think the billions spent on African vaccinations would be a lot better spent and save a lot more lives if they were ploughed into sanitation and agriculture. Lets get rid of those frigging cocoa plantations that serve the West's chocolate industry and plant them with maize, wheat and barley for a start!
desdemona
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I don't doubt your numbers or your devotion to the cause. Newer vaccines are being developed (at least in the veterinary field) at this time. Ones which use recombinant DNA technology. I think vaccines still have a place as new diseases continue to emerge. I wouldn't abandon all vaccines everywhere. It's just not a wise move...but you can enlighten me anytime you care. You know my email address. Feel free to point me to the sites you refer to any time.
Sure will. 🙂 Most of my info comes from written material and there are internet URL's in them for people with net access. Oddly enough I prefer to use the written word. lol Dunno why.
Thanks for the constructivness of your comments Des. That is what most of my threads having been lacking; constructive replies. Quite a few people have given personal opinions, but they've never actually tried to debate the points (with the exception of Hal) with any counter figures or opposing facts. You have and it's wonderful to talk to someone who thinks about the subject so deeply. 🙂
Thanks for the constructivness of your comments Des. That is what most of my threads having been lacking; constructive replies. Quite a few people have given personal opinions, but they've never actually tried to debate the points (with the exception of Hal) with any counter figures or opposing facts. You have and it's wonderful to talk to someone who thinks about the subject so deeply. 🙂
desdemona
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Always happy to participate in a subject near and dear to me and in which I can discuss the relevant issues in an educated manner. The saddest thing I see going on in my profession is that some veterinarians will not let go of any vaccinations - they consider it the bread and butter of their existence. On a realistic note, vaccinations comprise less than 10% of what I do and what generates income for the practice. Thankfully, my employers are a little more enlightened then some. But I'm always interested in ALTERNATIVES to vaccination for some of the deadlier diseases. Any sources for those Jim?
desdemona
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Thanks for the heads up, Jim. I'll look into it.
BTW...as an aside to your drug company conspiracy...I went to Butler University in Indianapolis for undergraduate. It's well known for its pharmacy school - richly endowed by Eli Lilly. Meanwhile, once I had graduated from vet school, I find that, much to my chagrin, Lilly makes insulin - humulin to be exact - and will no longer make beef or pork insulin available. There went all those dogs and cats whose diabetes was regulated well...down the toilet. I know it's all about economics, but good grief...I can't believe that there weren't some humans who also did better on the animal products vs. the human recombinant one. That's my two cents...
BTW...as an aside to your drug company conspiracy...I went to Butler University in Indianapolis for undergraduate. It's well known for its pharmacy school - richly endowed by Eli Lilly. Meanwhile, once I had graduated from vet school, I find that, much to my chagrin, Lilly makes insulin - humulin to be exact - and will no longer make beef or pork insulin available. There went all those dogs and cats whose diabetes was regulated well...down the toilet. I know it's all about economics, but good grief...I can't believe that there weren't some humans who also did better on the animal products vs. the human recombinant one. That's my two cents...
