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Dave2112, a Star Wars question

primetime

3rd Level Green Feather
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as i peruse through the Star Wars.com site, there are messageboards where people talk about well, Star Wars. i dont go into the Episode 2 forum because of possible spoliers, but Episode 1 and the Original Trilogy forums i go to often. a question was asked there, and i want to hear your thoughts. Was Vader's offer to Luke sincere? did Vader really want Luke to join him and rule as Father and Son, or did he just say that so he could lure him to the Emperor? a friend of mine posed that question. i think it was, as Vader probably wanted to overtake the Emperor and have his young son help him. what do you think?

also, when do you think Vader found out about Luke? some have said after he discovered his last name, Skywalker and put two and two together, but did Vader ever know what became of his son when he was born? you would figure he would have known Amidala was pregnant, or did he? obviously we'll know if he knew or not by Episode 3, but i just wanted to hear your thoughts.

i read your response in your other post "Boston Public" and yeah buddy, i have enjoyed on-line conversations with you too. i am even including you in my series "W.O.W." you will be the guest color commentator. anyway, what are you thoughts on the above questions
 
I suppose it's possible that Vader was sincere, though he might have been trying to play both sides against the middle in the struggle for power. It's the nature of the Sith to constantly hunger for more power and control, so it's a pretty safe bet that Vader really did want to get rid of Palpatine in order to seize the Imperial throne for himself. We also know that Vader was frightened of Palpatine to the extent that he would never attempt a coup on his own. He may have been figuring that he and Luke together would have enough power to beat the Emperor, and Palpatine even drops some veiled hints that he suspects Vader of contemplating such a ploy. It would be in keeping with Sith tradition for Vader to kill his old Master in order to take his place, and bring in Luke as his new Apprentice to maintain the required Sith Lord pair. I further think that Vader was likely willing to give Luke to the Emperor if the original plan didn't look like it would work out, however. That fact that both Luke and Palpatine sensed a hidden kernel of fatherly affection within Vader leads me to believe the sincerity of his offer, though.

As for Vader finding out about Luke, that is chronicled in the 4-issue miniseries from Dark Horse Comics, "Vader's Quest." Immediately after Episode IV, Vader seeks the identity of the pilot that fired the shot which took out the Death Star, with the intent of singling him out for some particularly vicious retribution. When his spies report that the pilot's name is Skywalker, Vader just stops dumbstruck, and swiftly changes the mission of the Imperial forces marshalled to pursue this quarry from elimination to capture. He makes no mention of Amidala (as the comic was released a few years before Episode I and the name of Luke's mother had not yet been revealed) or any prior knowledge of a son. Given that Anakin was apparently a spontaneous birth (Stupid, stupid, stupid... There would have been so much more drama if Anakin had been Qui-Gon's son - he spoke familiarly to Shmi as if they had history together - and Obi-Wan could say to the infant Luke and Leia that "I failed you father, I failed your grandfather, but I will not fail you...")and there are no other Skywalkers around, the connection that Luke is his son must be elementary. All that we know for certain is that Obi-Wan hid Amidala and her children away from their father, but there have been no solid references as to whether this was before or after their birth, before or after the duel at the volcano that maims Anakin forcing him to become Darth Vader, and how long before or after either event. It's possible that Obi-Wan may have bundled Amidala off to the Outer Rim as soon as the plus sign appeared on the pregnacy testing strip. Presumably, the only definitive information will be addressed in Episode III.
 
MadKalNod pretty much hit it on the head about Vader finding out about his son. "Vader's Quest" was a very informative series, and I suggest getting it.

As far as Vader's intentions toward Luke on Bespin, let me throw something else into the mix. Vader himself may not have known what his intentions truly were. I don't think Vader was actually "afraid" of Palpatine, but he knew superior power when he saw it. Palpatine's real talent was in his manipulation of people, as chronicled in his dealings with Mara Jade, Arden Lyn, Prince Xizor, a young Amidala...the list goes on and on. Many beings were led astray with Palpatine never having to raise a finger. Episode III is going to address many of the issues regarding his manipulation of Anakin. He was known to place layer upon layer of misdirection upon his scemes.

I believe that Vader was torn between bringing his son to him and delivering him to Palpatine. There was another comic that showed Vader on Bespin during that time, finding 3P0's head after the Ugnaughts blasted him. There's a whole flashback sequence about a very young Anakin finding the droid skeleton and his mother teaching him about responsibility. At the end, Vader tips his head forward and touches his forehead to the droid's with a sigh.

Vader's internal conflict was the whole point. He himself was confused between what he should do and what he had to do.

I highly reccomend reading the current novel "The Approaching Storm", about the events leading up to Episode II. You can learn more about Vader's motives and background here than in any other source so far. It's highly informative and a good read.😎
 
personally i take vaders offer at face value. he had every intention overthrowing palpatine. if he had caught luke he probably would have taken him to palpatine for sith training....but i think hed have thrown in a great deal of his own training and manipulation and when the time was right theyd have worked togther to remove the emperor from the picture. i think vader left his mark on luke anyway. remember in return of the jedi when he went to jabbas palace and the two gamorean guards blocked his path? he raised a hand and choked the hell out of them....a sith trick.
 
thanks for the response guys. who knows what would have happened if Luke did join Vader. but here's another question. we know that the Sith carry two. master and apprentice. but wasnt that explained to us in Episode 1. were there any books at all that describe that was how the Sith operated? if there wasnt, then what would have happened if Luke joined Vader? what theory would there have been then? interesting thought. what do you guys think?

dont you wish you had the abilities of the Force. how many times would you use the Jedi-mind trick or the force choke? what about using the force to bring the remote control or the ringing phone to you? man, i wish i had that power!!! for good of course!! 😀
 
just an opinion.......

i think that if vader really wanted luke to join him he would have let luke get palpatine instead of drawing his lightsaber to block lukes stike on him.what do you guys think?
 
Another point of interest. One of the things that drew Vader to finding and turning Luke was his similar power. In "Shadows of the Empire" (set between ESB and ROTJ), Vader is "working out" with combat droids and lamenting the fact that his duel with Luke on Bespin was the one true challenge he'd had in quite some time.

Yeah, Luke used the choke on the Gammorean gaurds, but you have to remember how little "formal" training he had. He mostly followed the Force and discovered many of his abilities on his own.

Primetime, in "Dark Tide II: Ruin" (the third book of the New Jedi Order series) Mara Jade gives a lesson to Anakin Solo about over-judicious use of the Force. Using it to "get the remote" as you said, while fun, has a tendency to "water-down" one's connection with it. Doing mundane things the mundane way keeps the respect for the Force where it belongs and allows the wielder to call upon much greater power when needed.

Although this isn't directly said, my feeling is that Vader was following Palpatine's orders to get Luke "into the family" and then was planning a coup. As noted many times before, the thirst for power is never quenched with the Dark Side, and many Sith Apprentices have gone on to kill thier Masters, or at least try. Throw in a rare vestige of good in the man, and things get very convoluted.😎
 
A Potted History of the Sith Heirarchy

we know that the Sith carry two. master and apprentice. but wasnt that explained to us in Episode 1. were there any books at all that describe that was how the Sith operated? if there wasnt, then what would have happened if Luke joined Vader? what theory would there have been then?

As for how the Sith operate, there are a number of non-film sources that describe their changing methods over the millennia.

Approximately 5000 years before Episode IV, the Sith rule an entire region of space as a feudal magocracy of sorts. Anyone can grab as much power as they can take and hold, as long as they have enough talent in the Force with which to back it up. There does not seem to be any limit on the number of Sith Lords, though there is only one at a time who may use the title "Dark Lord of the Sith," distinguished by a tattoo on his forehead. A council of about half-a-dozen Sith Lords make decisions, but they spend more time scheming and backstabbing each other than guiding the empire. Following the Great Hyperspace War, in which the Sith Empire is soundly thrashed by the combined forces of the Old Republic, the Jedi, and Empress Teta of Cinnagar, the Dark Lords are wiped out for the next 1000 years. Dark Lord Naga Sadow flees to Yavin 4, where he establishes a sanctuary to plot and preserve the secrets of the Sith. This is chronicled in Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith and Tales of the Jedi: Fall of the Sith Empire from Dark Horse Comics.

4000 years before Episode IV sees a burst of renewed Sith activity. Small groups of cultists following Sith teachings on Onderon and in the Empress Teta system sieze territory using the Dark Side techniques they discover, plunging the Galaxy ito war once again. There are four known Dark Lords of the Sith in action at this time: Aleema and Satal Keto, who rule the Teta system, and the fallen Jedi Knights Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. Both Kun and Qel-Drom wore the Dark Lord's distinctive forehead tattoo. They actively sought to recruit apprentices from among the Jedi, especialy Exar Kun. The Royal family of Onderon, while powerful in the Dark Side, did not refer to themselves as Sith Lords. At least one Sith Knight (equal in power to a Jedi Knight but not a full Sith Lord), Warb Null, was known to be operating at this time as well. The majority of the troops serving these Sith Lords, however, notably the mercenary Mandalorian raiders, have no Force training. After their defeat in this conflict, due in no small part to infighting and betrayal among the Sith Lords, the Sith are all but extinguished, with no word of their activity for another 3000 years. The spirit of the slain Exar Kun is imprisoned on Yavin 4, awaiting discovery by students of Luke Skywalker over 4000 years later. This is chronicled in the Tales of the Jedi series Knights of the Old Republic, The Freedon Nadd Uprising, Dark Lords of the Sith, and The Sith War from Dark Horse Comics.

1000 years before Episode IV, an iteresting development occurs in the Sith power structure. At the Battle of Ruusan, a number of Sith Lords, led by Lord Kaan, pit their armies (again, non-Force adepts) against those of the Jedi. Unable to acheive any significant victories due to the selfishness and internal powerplays among the Sith, Kaan uses a "Thought Bomb" which kills all Force users within range, both Jedi and Sith, as a final desperate scorched-earth attack. Only Kaan's second-in-command Darth Bane survives, and taking a confused and frightened young girl from the ranks of the Jedi trainees as an student, he begins the policy of limiting Sith numbers to only Master and Apprentice. This is done not only to prevent the kind of disunity and infighting among multiple Lords that has contributed to every Sith defeat thus far; but also to evade the notice of the Jedi by remaining small and mobile. Bane is also the first to use the title "Darth", which appears to be a contraction of "Dark Lord of the Sith." This is the situation of the Sith until the coming of Palpatine and Darth Maul. This occurs in the Jedi vs. Sith series from Dark Horse Comics.

In the intervening time, there are other groups of Dark Side adepts which arise, such as the Nightsisters of Dathomir and the Sorcerors of Tund. While not true Sith, the Nightsisters show similar traits. They are organized in a tribal fashion, led by the matriarch Gethzerion. Only women on Dathomir show any Force talent, so membership is exclusively female. While they are more or less an extended family, betrayal and internal strife in pursuit of power are not unheard of, as it has always been with the Sith. Little is known of the Sorcerors of Tund, save that they have been exterminated by one of their number, Rokur Gepta, who sought to gain a monopoly upon their secret knowledge. Clearly, the Sith curse of self-destruction from internecine cutthroat competition held true for them as well.

With the rise of Palpatine, also called Darth Sidious, to the position of Galactic Emperor, the situation changes dramatically. While there are technically still only two Darths, Palpatine allows the existence of a nuber of other Dark Side practitioners. He keeps a circle of advisors at hand called the Prophets of the Dark Side, who specialise in visions and farseeing. Many of the Imperial Inquisitors, whose task was to hunt down Force-talented individuals, display Dark Side training of their own, and some are even fallen Jedi, notably Adalric Brandl. Palpatine even goes so far as to give special training to a number of beings equal to that of a Sith Apprentice, which he calls "The Emperor's Hands." Mara Jade is the most famous, but other known Hands include concubine Roganda Ismarren, High Inquisitor Tremayne, ace TIE pilot Maarek Stele, mercenary bounty hunter Arden Lyn, Vader's protege Lady Lumiya, and the Imperial Intelligence Chief known only by the codename Blackhole. While the Emperor distrusted Gethzerion as a dangerous rival, he successfully kept Dathomir quarantined for years; and it is implied that he had some kind of supporting agreement with Rokur Gepta. Following his death and return through cloning and Sith Consciousness projection techniques, Palpatine is served by about a dozen Dark Side Adepts and gives rudimentary Sith/Dark Side training to his Royal Guardsmen (one of whom, Carnor Jax, will go on to lead the Empire for a brief but violent period) and a unit of Stormtroopers christened "Darktroopers" (not to be confused with the cybernetic soldiers of the same name created by General Mohc a decade earlier), but they do not appear to have much ability in the Force.

The upshot of all this (and getting back to your question, Primetime 😱) is that Palpatine/Darth Sidious had finally managed to keep a relatively large number of Dark Side/Sith Adepts in service to him at once without falling prey to the squabbling that plagued all previous Sith regimes. (Save, of course, for Vader's final act of defiance and Carnor Jax's sabotage of the cloning facility on Byss six years later.) This is partly due to the fact that the Jedi were effectively no longer a concern and the entire Galaxy was open to them; to use an ecological analogy: A species will expand its numbers to take full advanatage of the resources of its habitat in the absence of traditional predators. Secondly, as Dave notes, Palpatine is enough of a master at manipulation that he could easily keep these disparate groups under his command busy watching their own backs rather than casting their eyes to his throne. Thus, if Luke had actually turned to the Dark Side, it is likely that he would have been absorbed into this group with little effect to the power structure, either at least being inducted into the ranks of the Emperor's Hands or at most replacing Vader as Palpatine's chief go-to guy.

This actually occurs in the Dark Empire comic series, as Luke gives in to the Cloned Emperor's offer to join him. He does this for two reasons: Luke believes that by learning the Dark Side's methods, it may be possible to use them against the Emperor(He's wrong. It doesn't work that way, as Ulic Qel-Droma learned 4000 years before...); and he hopes that by taking Vader's position, he may come to better understand and eventually forgive his father. Palpatine makes Luke his second-in-command, probably replacing the Dark Side Executor Sedriss, though he is not mentioned at this time. Luke eventually double-crosses Palpatine, as his fall was part of a ploy to defeat the Empire from within. The Emperor claims to have forseen that, but that doesn't help him prevent getting killed again. Frankly, between having left a large chunk of his spirit orbiting Endor as a "psychic bloodstain" marking where the Death Star II was destroyed, and Carnor Jax secretly tampering with the stability of his cloned bodies, Palpatine is just not at the top of his game in the Dark Empire series. Luke does return to the Light Side, as his love for his friends and family is far stronger than the Dark Side's temptations of power, but he is never quite the same after having felt the Dark Side within him.

As for using the Force to choke the Gamorreans at Jabba's palace, I think that is simply a poor real-life choice on the part of George Lucas, who wanted us to see a mysterious black-cloaked figure and be surprised that it turned out to be Luke. This suspense and misdirection presumably would be achieved by seeing this figure do something terribly out-of-character for Luke. I can't find a reasonable in-story rationale for it.
 
MadKalNod, I posted a similar history of the Sith in another thread about three months ago. It's impressive to see another Sith Scholar out there. I have always found the pre-Empire stuff very interesting myself.

An interesting thought I had about Palpatine, and this even somewhat relates to my earlier thread about "over-use" of the Force. Between total control of the HoloNet and propaganda, infighting and controlled dissent, move and counter move....Palpatine actually did more harm to the galaxy through politics than he ever did with the Force.

Just something to think about.😎
 
you guys kick ass.......

i love star wars,but i didn`t realize there was so much to the story.if it wasn`t for you guys debating on this and that i`d have no idea who people like Darth Bane was or the history of the Sith.you guys rock!
 
thanks again for the explanation. it is cool to know the history of the whole Star Wars universe. but did the theory of 2 Siths come before or after Episode 1? if it came before, did the authors get that idea from Lucas himself, or did Lucas actually use their idea for Episode 1?
 
In the History of the Star Wars fictional universe, the 2 Sith idiom came far before Episode I.

In reality, Lucas was already starting work on Episode I when the Dark Horse comics came out, so I assume that contact was made with LucasFilm to make it fit. Nothing in Star Wars gets written without at least a go-ahead that it fits in the general scheme of things, although the novel authors of given tremendous leeway to steer the saga as they see fit.
 
From what I can piece together, Lucas comes up with the "2 Darths: No More, No Less" rule specifically for Episode I: The Phantom Menace. In the novelization of same, Terry Brooks writes a paragraph of exposition saying that Darth Bane initiated the custom after the Battle of Ruusan 1000 years earlier.

I believe that the Battle of Ruusan is first mentioned in the computer game Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, as the game's storyline has Kyle Katarn attempting to prevent Ruusan's Valley of the Jedi, and the souls of the Jedi trapped there by Kaan's Thought Bomb attack, from falling into the hands of the Dark Jedi Jerec and his entourage (Another half-dozen Dark Jedi under Palpatine's tutelage, I believe). I can't be positive, as I haven't played the game myself, but I believe that the storyline is expanded by William C. Dietz in his Dark Forces Trilogy of illustrated novellas from Dark Horse Comics. (They're still on the shelf, having gotten in line and taken a number, waiting for me to find time to read them, sadly :blush: )

Dark Horse then put out the six-issue Jedi vs Sith mini-series to expand that expository reference into a full story. So, while the concept that Sith Lords only operate in pairs was invented by Lucas specifically for The Phantom Menace, all of the details and side-stories were created by the authors of the Expanded Universe material at Del Rey Books, Dark Horse Comics, and Lucasarts Software.
 
You are correct, Mad. I have Dark Forces II, and the valley in question is the "Valley of the Jedi" left over from the famed Battle of Ruusaan. Good game, by the way, and its follow up, Jedi Outcast promises to be the best SW game yet.😎
 
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