Did you hear about this ludicrous story?

[AffectionateDan]

Teens could cast ballots

State lawmaker wants to lower voting age to 14

By JIM WASSERMAN - The Associated Press

SACRAMENTO - Millions of California's teenagers would become the nation's first to vote under a proposed constitutional amendment introduced Monday by a 71-year-old state senator.

Sen. John Vasconcellos, D-Santa Clara, proposed the idea alongside three other lawmakers, saying the Internet, cellular phones, multichannel television and a diverse society makes today's teens better informed than generations of their predecessors.

Coming on the heels of an expected record low turnout among adults in the March 2 election, Vasconcellos would give 16-year-olds a half vote and 14-year-old a quarter vote in state elections beginning in 2006.

The idea, formally called "Training Wheels for Citizenship," first requires two-thirds approval by the Legislature to appear on this November's ballot.

The California suggestion comes 33 years after the United States lowered its voting age from 21 to 18, and amid a fledgling youth movement in the U.S. and other nations to lower the voting age. Supporters say Israel allows 17-year-olds to vote in local elections, while Austria and Germany allow 16-year-olds to vote in some local elections. A bill in California letting 17-year-olds vote in primary elections when they will be 18 years old for the general election has languished.

"People who are given opportunity when it counts often live up to it," said Vasconcellos, flanked by nearly 40 teenagers from across the state.

"When we gave the vote to those who didn't own property, then to women, then to persons of all colors, we added to the richness of our democratic dialogue and our own nation's integrity and its model for the world," he said, calling it time to further extend the vote.

A Republican colleague called it "the nuttiest idea I've ever heard."

Said Assemblyman Ray Haynes, R-Murrieta, "There's a reason why 14-year-olds and 16-year-olds don't vote. They are not adults. They are not mature enough. They are easily deceived by political charlatans."

"We feel that many problems that are created in our community by the youth, such as vandalism, violence, gangs to name a few, are direct results of the youth striving to be heard and striving to have a voice, but being unable to share that in a positive way," added Mark Murphy of Santa Rosa, a Montgomery High School student.

Vasconcellos said the reason for not giving teenagers a full vote was "strategic. "If I said 16 full and 14 full, I think it wouldn't have much legs." But he added, "In my heart I think 16-year-olds should be given a full vote."

 

[MrMacphisto]

Said Assemblyman Ray Haynes, R-Murrieta, "There's a reason why 14-year-olds and 16-year-olds don't vote. They are not adults. They are not mature enough. They are easily deceived by political charlatans."

As if adults aren't easily deceived... humans are easily deceived; age has little to do with it. Maybe... just maybe... California will be the first to eliminate yet another agist policy in the U.S. It's bad enough that people can die for this country before they can drink, but the fact that teens don't have an electoral voice is almost as bad. Maybe after this, they can remove the extremely agist policy of the minimum age of a president being 35.

 

[the_Baron]

would these be white male landowning teenagers? whats that mr. adams?


but seriously.



how much worse could they be than the old folks in florida?

 

[venray]

Teens could cast ballots



"When we gave the vote to those who didn't own property, then to women, then to persons of all colors, we added to the richness of our democratic dialogue and our own nation's integrity and its model for the world," he said, calling it time to further extend the vote.

A Republican colleague called it "the nuttiest idea I've ever heard."

LOL There goes California...trying to build up the vote for the democrats any way they can....next they'll go to the first graders..

🙄

 

[JPie1]

heck this is the country and debt we are leaving behind to them, if the can help oust a guy who is a louse then ok...seriously I would like to see Bush ousted but I think 14 is a wee bit young to vote...

 

[giggleygirl25]

maybe they should lower the age to 16...teens are allowed to start learning to drive at that age and driving is a huge responsibility so why not voting as well (although i still think the drinking age should stay 21)

 

[Oddjob0226]

Why not let 'em vote? Are the ADULTS really coming out in droves, after all?

 

[venray]

Yup and we should let them carry guns as well...as long as they are certified and properly licensed....Then they can protect themselves from bullies in the playground......

I have an 18 year old that I dont think should excercise his right to vote..now we want to lower the age...the youngsters would vote for Howard Stern...ROFLMAO!


Just because the adults who have the right are too ignorant to use it and would rather complain about who gets elected is NO reason to let the minors take charge of the world..... ah, yes raging hormones away!


Ven

 

[giantfan121262]

Generally speaking, I don't think 14-16 year olds really are not serious enough to really grasp politics and take it matters at hand seriously. It's not that they are stupid, they rather be hanging with their friends doing the latest thing.

I think It's a good idea to lower the age so the kids may begin to start paying attention about what is going on and the issues at hand. It may give them more incentive to learn if they knew they had a say in the matter.

 

[Oddjob0226]

Yup and we should let them carry guns as well...as long as they are certified and properly licensed....Then they can protect themselves from bullies in the playground......

No, swords would have more panache.

"Will you pluck your sword from its pilcher by the ears? Make haste, lest mine be about your ears, let it be out!"

It would also improve their vocab-izzu-larry, yo.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

this guy is pandering

the idea is not going anywhere, and the sponsor knows it.
he's playing for something else, just watch.
the idea is absurd ,period.

steve

 

[Knox The Hatter]

"There's a reason why 14-year-olds and 16-year-olds don't vote. They are not adults. They are not mature enough. They are easily deceived by political charlatans."

If this was to actually come to pass, I guarantee you that the voting numbers of adolescents would be lower than that for adults.
By the way, the quote above sounds like what they used to admonish us about in their argument against giving the vote to women. And Blacks. And the landless rabble! 😀

Hey, Steve, that was a great insight! What is this man's angle, indeed? But then, this is California, we're talking about. The land where the danimals roam free 🙂

 

[General Zod]

I think the voting age should be lowered If a person 14-17 can get a part time job and have to pay taxes why shouldn't they be able to vote and have a better say in the government? If they don't want those people who are less than 18 to vote,then those younger people should not have to pay taxes

 

[MrMacphisto]

Re: Re: Did you hear about this ludicrous story?

LOL There goes California...trying to build up the vote for the democrats any way they can....next they'll go to the first graders..

🙄

Have you noticed how the older members here don't like this idea? Perhaps, they like the power they have as elders, eh? Yet another reason why the young should get a vote. By the way, Venray, you should remember the mentality of a teenager is quite different from the mentality of a first grader. Think of it this way: if age is so important to voting eligibility and maturity, then why did cultures in the past consider people adults at age 13? In the Middle Ages, it was common for people to get married at 13, and in India, this practice still occurs. I'm not saying that I want to bring back all things from the past, but it is obvious that cultures who have or still do regard teens as adults have survived and were generally unaffected by this difference in perception. If this society wants to try teens as adults in murder cases and the like, then it seems only fair that they should also get the vote. Otherwise, the old will continue to abuse their power much like the rich do.

By the way, Venray and Steve, if you think all teens are liberals, then you are truly out of touch. Perhaps, you've never heard of the Young Republicans' Club.

 

[venray]

Lol..first of all my friend I have been voting since I was 18 and have NO problem with the youth of America voting. I am sorry to tell you this but most 13 year olds in our country do NOT have the maturity to make a decision which effects the running of a city let alone country.

I have NO more power than the next eligible voter. I just make sure to use my right to vote and not let it go to waste.

As for the first grader comment, it was a joke...learn about sarcasm..

As for the liberal crack it was made because the idiot proposing this is of course a California Democrat, which is a breed unto itself these days....🙄

Lighten up man....you take things far too seriously....

Steve is right...this proposal will go nowhere. Too many voters are parents and KNOW what kind of kaos it would bring. so, mr. M...judge when you have a teen of your own. I work with kids all day long..I love them..but I wouldnt want them voting or drinking or carrying weapons or doing ANYTHING that they lack the maturity for. It's bad enough that they have to deal with the hormonal changes involved in the teen years without turning them into mini adults before their time.

🙄

Ray

 

[Deleted member 2452]

an answer for you mrmacphisto.

people got married early in the middle ages, and older times because they died in their 30's, and 40's for the most part!
simple matter of short life expectancy.

as for young kids being liberal? i don't think i said that, did i?
it's been shown actually, that when presented with portions of the bill of rights, most teens would have them removed! so much for wisdom of youth.

steve
p.s. i too have been voting since i turned 18, never missed an election, or primary.

 

[dvnc]

ROFL!

Uh, clearly, many here must not be Americans. US History is a required topic for high school in the United States.

How old were the original settlers, again? Anyone?

The average age of homesteaders?

People, in general, forget that the United States was grown by many kids.

Average age of soldiers in the Revolutionary War? The Civil War? 1812?

Mind you, there IS the counterpoint - 200 years ago, livin' to 30 was a big deal, kids weren't protected from forced labor in their youth, and the workforce was WAY smaller in ratio to the population, 'cause the soceity had allowed for only having males as wage-earners. Them males of the species were barely able to procreate before bein' induced to get a job, a wife (barely a woman at that point) and struggle to survive, same as their parents did.

I figure that the voting age and drinking age should follow the age for criminal prosecution, military draft requirements, legal age of emancipation, and fiscal responsibility for taxes. In other words, when you're ready to get a job, pay taxes, get jailed harshly for crimes, risk draft in a war, and manage your behavior when touching an ounce of alcohol, then you should get the right to vote. Not one damned minute sooner, 'cause everything on which you vote affects those people who do EXACTLY that. Work and pay to live.

When I see high school kids holding political demonstrations, instead of sneaking parent's booze (or scored booze, take your pick) and partyin' while playin' Playstation and watchin' dad's DVD player, I'll be more inclined to have the ages on EVERYTHING pulled back. When you can vote, you can serve in the military, go to prison, pay over a third of your money to taxes from the job you work, 40 hours a week.

Then again, I was always amused about getting to vote at 18, since two-thirds of my classmates were having the great responsibility of college, with breaks every summer, and a couple weeks off in winter. Thought that was funny.

Still do.

When I see statistic, from voting season, showing 18-20 as having even 80% show to vote, two voting seasons in a row, I'll change my mind, though. That many youth come to school old-timers about how it SHOULD go, and I'll have their back on it, there forward.

Heck, even beating the other age groups would impress me soundly.

It ain't happenin' yet. It will, though. Evolution is amazin', that way.

dvnc

 

[MrMacphisto]

oh, you people make this so easy...

ok.. where do I start?... Hmmm... Venray, you first...

You have no more power than the average voter, but the longer you've been around, the more chance you've had to make connections that give you benefits over the young. Let's take an example: the work force. I'm assuming you've probably had at least a decade or two of more work experience than me given that you're twice my age. So, you're probably more likely to get hired by most places than I am. (Granted, this changes once you get older than 65.) Anyway, this is one of the many advantages older people have over the young. Is it a justified advantage? Maybe it is... However, this is only one of the many advantages age provides in our society. Giving the right to vote to teens seems like a small consolation to the same age group that is tried as an adult for things like murder in most states. If you're going to regard someone as having the "maturity" to know between right and wrong, why not also give them credit for being mature enough to vote? You see, giving credit for one and not the other is hypocritical.

In conclusion, Venray, I would think you know as well as I that most adults are nothing more than grown up children. Maturity has more to do with intelligence and the ability to learn from experiences (aka - wisdom) and less to do with age. For example, when I was in student government in my college, I noticed that a 17 year old (who was taking classes simultaneously in high school and college) in our group was far more "mature" than the frat boys and sorority girls that made up the majority of the organization. I've known plenty of teens that were far more mature than even some 20, 30, 40, or even 50-somethings. If age has so much to do with maturity, then how come it was mostly the elderly that screwed up a simple ballot process in Florida during the 2000 presidential election? You could just assume that all of them were senile, but I think the truth of the matter is that older people don't adapt as fast as younger people. Wisdom and maturity are closely related, and wisdom primarily depends on the ability to learn or perceive (not on the amount of experiences you've had, contrary to what most older people say). In short, I don't need teens of my own to know the maturity level of them. Some teens are even (gasp!) my friends. I'm not denying that most teens are immature, but people forget (or simply don't notice) that most adults are immature as well.

Steve... you're next...

A simple matter of life expectancy, eh? Ok, so, does that mean that black males (the demographic with the shortest life expectancy in the U.S.) somehow mature faster than everyone else due to their generally shorter lives? I mean, if it's all about life expectancy, then, if Sierra Leone has a remarkably short average life span (and if it was a democracy), then they should get the vote at age 8 (relatively speaking). (See Venray, I do know about sarcasm; it's quite amusing, isn't it?)

Anyway, I think you're missing the point here: we gave responsibilities to people at a younger age when our lives were shorter. Just because we now have longer lives, that doesn't mean that people now mature slower than before. Granted, that is the implication you give when you raise the age minimum on things like voting, drinking, etc. How would you like it if, somehow, our lifespans suddenly increased to 200 years, and then the government decided that the minimum age to vote was... 50? You'd be a new voter, Venray. Of course, the justification would be, "Well, those pre-semi-centenarians just aren't old enough to be mature. You have to have at least half of a century's experience to be mature enough to vote." You'd be pretty pissed, wouldn't you?

The illusion perpetuated by this society is that teens simply aren't mature enough to act like adults. While hormones are definitely a factor in determining maturity, it is really how a society treats people that is the greatest factor. DVNC poses some interesting questions about this. Yeah, child labor laws tend to make it hard for teens to get anything more than a food service or theater job (not to mention being in school most of the day). So, it would be rather hard for a teen to work 40 hours a week, if he/she is in school for almost the same amount of time per week. The reason behind the lack of maturity in most teens is what society tells them. If the media and peer pressure entice teens to spend their free time playing video games and watching movies, then they probably won't strive to pay attention to political issues. If they don't have the time or ability to get a full-time job, then they can't possibly understand the working world. If they're treated like they simply aren't "mature" enough to drink until they're 21, then they'll see drinking as either taboo or a way to rebel (or they'll just do pot instead, since it's easier to get than alcohol is when you're a teen). Society has manufactured a lack of maturity in teens by convincing them that they aren't mature. Treating someone like a child will eventually ENCOURAGE them to act like one. If we treated them like adults (like we already do with murder), then they would be more inclined to act like them. Sure, some teens are just stupid or really immature, but how does this make them different from any other age group? Plenty of evidence around the world implies the immaturity of adults; do you think it's just teens that get involved in soccer riots? Do you think teens are the primary group getting scammed by telemarketers? Do you think most serial killers are teens?
I could go on and on with this list, but I think you get the picture now.

One last thing... One of the main concerns that keeps getting brought up about this issue is that teens aren't well informed enough to vote. What makes you think the average adult in this country is well informed? Do you honestly believe that the average adult actually sits down and thinks out how they're going to vote according to the issues? Hell fucking no.... The average adult either votes according to party affiliation or whatever impression campaign commercials give to them. Is that mature? I think not... So, maturity or even knowledge aren't an issue in this debate, because our current electorate is already lacking in both regards. I think the real issue here is that those who already have a voice in this country feel threatened by having another voice to contend with. In short, you people just don't want to share, but that's ok, I'm used to this bullshit by now....