Dune

[cletus]

Please tell me I'm not the only Dune fan in this forum? Seen it? Liked it?

I've seen it. Thought Denis did the best version yet. Super stoked that he's now for sure doing Dune Messiah. Would love for them to go as far God Emperor. The 1984 version is blasphemy in my opinion. The sci-fi channel had a good low budget version with some notable appearances like James McAvoy as Leto II.

 

[TMF Jeff]

I'm a huge fan of Dune. I never saw the sci-fi version, but I've seen all the movie adaptations, and over the years I've read the series at least four or five times.

Just the ones by Frank Herbert though, not the stuff by his son. I got about 10% of the way through his son's first book when I realized he wasn't writing the same world his father had written.

 

[BlasterMaster]

I'm a huge fan of Dune. I never saw the sci-fi version, but I've seen all the movie adaptations, and over the years I've read the series at least four or five times.

Just the ones by Frank Herbert though, not the stuff by his son. I got about 10% of the way through his son's first book when I realized he wasn't writing the same world his father had written.

The Sci-Fi version is amazing for two simple reasons, the first is Ian McNeice as the the Baron Harkonnen (a role which McNeice absolutely KILLS as he's AMAZING AS HIM). The second is Children of Dune (which had never been adapted to film until the Sci-Fi channel did it). The actor who portrayed Leto the 2nd was pretty amazing and I only wish we had gotten a continuation of him as God Emperor Leto the 2nd of the Known Universe.

I tried watching two new Dune movies and I cannot for the life of me get into it due to the plot changes and more specifically the kid they got to play Paul. He has none of the confidence and passion that Kyle MacLachlan put into the role in Lynch's version. Also what in god's name did they do to Chani? Seriously, in part 2 she is seriously always angry with Paul (especially at the ending).

I got about 10% of the way through his son's first book when I realized he wasn't writing the same world his father had written.

I mean, it really wasn't the same universe but rather a telling of how the universe BECAME Frank Herbert's universe (aka the universe during the Butlerian Jihad/Cymek War and the discovery of Arrakis and the Spice melange and also what it was capable of).

 

[TMF Jeff]

The Sci-Fi version is amazing for two simple reasons, the first is Ian McNeice as the the Baron Harkonnen (a role which McNeice absolutely KILLS as he's AMAZING AS HIM). The second is Children of Dune (which had never been adapted to film until the Sci-Fi channel did it). The actor who portrayed Leto the 2nd was pretty amazing and I only wish we had gotten a continuation of him as God Emperor Leto the 2nd of the Known Universe.

I tried watching two new Dune movies and I cannot for the life of me get into it due to the plot changes and more specifically the kid they got to play Paul. He has none of the confidence and passion that Kyle MacLachlan put into the role in Lynch's version. Also what in god's name did they do to Chani? Seriously, in part 2 she is seriously always angry with Paul (especially at the ending).


I mean, it really wasn't the same universe but rather a telling of how the universe BECAME Frank Herbert's universe (aka the universe during the Butlerian Jihad/Cymek War and the discovery of Arrakis and the Spice melange and also what it was capable of).

I'm pretty sure Leto was played by James MacAvoy, who played Professor X in the later X-Men movies. I just read a reference to that in an article about the new movies. Which I actually enjoyed a lot - I thought they were pretty on point for the most part, and visually stunning. Although I also did not particularly like Timothy Chalomet as Paul... I agree he lacked passion. To me it felt like he was kind of going through the motions, and I'm amazed at how many people love his performance.

The tone of Chani was deliberate according to what I understand from interviews with the director - he wasn't sure if they were going to get to do a third movie, which would be Dune Messiah, the book that kind of nails home the point that Herbert was trying to make about trusting a "messiah" to save you. Herbert was trying to deconstruct the kinds of stories that he saw being told where some prophetic figure would come along, everyone would rally around them, and they would lead humanity into a utopia. He thought that was a dangerous idea.

From what I've read, he was somewhat frustrated by the response to Dune and he wrote Dune Messiah as a response to that. He wanted to rub people's faces in the fact that Paul was a mass murderer who did what he did out of revenge, not from some kind of altruistic desire to "save the universe." And I think Denis Villaneuve gets that a lot better than Lynch ever did.

But since Villaneuve wasn't, and isn't, sure if he's going to make Dune Messiah, he wanted to get some of that into Dune 2, and Chani was his vehicle for that. She's the one who sees Paul for what he is - another nobleman, a wealthy privileged outsider, and a part of the system that oppresses the Fremen, who is willing to do anything to avenge his family's betrayal, and has decided not to care how many people are going to have to die along the way.

It's not Chani from the books, but in fairness, Chani in the books wasn't particularly well-fleshed-out - she was just some girl who was madly in love with Paul for no particular reason.

As for Herbert's son - I haven't read the books set in the past, the only one I even attempted was the sequel to Chapterhouse, and I got as far as Clone Leto magically turning into a sandworm before giving up. It just didn't feel like Dune. Since then I've occasionally read summaries of the subsequent books, or watched videos about them, but I can tell they're not for me.

 

[Biscuit]

Herbert's books are classics Jeff. His son wrote second rate 'raygunz and rocketsss' pap of the worst type, I don't think it even really qualifies as space opera and it sure as hell isn't science fiction. Herbert's works were true science fiction, asking speculative what ifs (Asimov,Heinlein), not writing mindless drivel for the brainless masses to grunt at.

The 84 movie gets a lot of hate, but although it definitely didn't manage to stay true to the book in its final format because of all the editing, if you can find the unedited original director online, it's definitely worth a watch, as it's much closer to the books and makes a lot more sense. The first book was so massive with so much backstory it's just very difficult to fit into a single movie, which is why I thought the miniseries sci-fi did was probably a better fit for the books.

The new movies definitely suffer from casting problems, and too much woke bullshit. (See the godawful wheel of Time series that Amazon recently did for more of this kind of thing). The very instant they say something like, "melange causes gender fluidity" , I'm out, and I'm absolutely certain that it's coming. Everything doesn't need an update, leave the classics the fuck alone.

I definitely agree that children of Dune on sci-fi was worth watching, I would have liked if they had gone as far as Messiah and heretics in the series.

 

[BlasterMaster]

I will admit Herbert's son doesn't really do the novels exactly like his father did but at the very least I feel he at least tried to continue his father's legacy.

As for Messiah's not being all their cracked up to be, yeah, that's certain a message in Herbert's writing but Frank also wanted to point out to the audience that mankind (in the setting of Dune) was on a path to a horrific horrible end (aka via sentient hunter seekers that could improve themselves literally killing all of humanity all over the known Universe). The only thing that could stop it was "the Golden Path" but even then that Path was almost as bad as the hunter seekers as it involved Leto the 2nd (as the God Emperor of Dune) quite literally FORCING all of humanity to do absolutely nothing but eat, sleep, and WORSHIP him for over a thousand years. Paul's son may have saved humanity from extinction but boy howdie was he a nasty NASTY tyrannical god.

 

[TMF Jeff]

I totally agree, the cure was BARELY better than the disease, at least for the generations of humanity that had to live through it. I enjoyed God Emperor a lot the first time I read it, but now it's the one I least look forward to re-reading when I go back to the series because it's a little too heavy on the philosophy. It's obviously by design, since it's all about the time of Leto's Peace. but it's so slow moving. There were a few battles, and he could have followed some others if he wanted, but I guess the whole point was that nothing can threaten or even seriously disturb Leto's empire so you can't have an exciting action scene.

Although that said, I enjoy the Duncan Idaho sections a lot, especially as stage-setting for the next two books where he becomes a more central character. I often wonder why the God Emperor kept Duncan around, and he sort of addresses it by implying that he's going to be able to help the Fremen relearn how to live in the desert and gather spice. Or maybe he foresaw that Duncan would be the only one who could stop him.

But thinking about it now, he may have been an essential part of the Golden Path when the Honored Matres come along with their sexual enslavement powers. Like, maybe Leto foresaw that the Honored Matres were another way for humanity to become extinct, and Duncan would be needed to blunt that force when it came.

Although now that I really think about it, the Honored Matres were definitely no threat to those two super-advanced face dancers that Duncan kept having visions of, although it was kind of implied that they had become almost like Leto, these godlike beings snatching up groups from the Scattering and controlling their fate.

 

[Biscuit]

I will admit Herbert's son doesn't really do the novels exactly like his father did but at the very least I feel he at least tried to continue his father's legacy.

As for Messiah's not being all their cracked up to be, yeah, that's certain a message in Herbert's writing but Frank also wanted to point out to the audience that mankind (in the setting of Dune) was on a path to a horrific horrible end (aka via sentient hunter seekers that could improve themselves literally killing all of humanity all over the known Universe). The only thing that could stop it was "the Golden Path" but even then that Path was almost as bad as the hunter seekers as it involved Leto the 2nd (as the God Emperor of Dune) quite literally FORCING all of humanity to do absolutely nothing but eat, sleep, and WORSHIP him for over a thousand years. Paul's son may have saved humanity from extinction but boy howdie was he a nasty NASTY tyrannical god.

The continuation 'novels' weren't an attempt to continue his father's legacy, as they don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with any of Herbert's work. They were a cash grab of the lowest type and could be likened to dressing his father's corpse for a museum display.

For a son who makes a true effort to respect his father 's great legacy, see Christopher tolkien's excellent work on releasing his father's notes and unfinished novels.

Yes, I'm sure he made a lot of money doing it, but you could tell from the tone that the point was, to, as best he could, release things that he thought his father would have wanted released. It's not the same thing at all in my opinion.

 

[Biscuit]

I totally agree, the cure was BARELY better than the disease, at least for the generations of humanity that had to live through it. I enjoyed God Emperor a lot the first time I read it, but now it's the one I least look forward to re-reading when I go back to the series because it's a little too heavy on the philosophy. It's obviously by design, since it's all about the time of Leto's Peace. but it's so slow moving. There were a few battles, and he could have followed some others if he wanted, but I guess the whole point was that nothing can threaten or even seriously disturb Leto's empire so you can't have an exciting action scene.

Although that said, I enjoy the Duncan Idaho sections a lot, especially as stage-setting for the next two books where he becomes a more central character. I often wonder why the God Emperor kept Duncan around, and he sort of addresses it by implying that he's going to be able to help the Fremen relearn how to live in the desert and gather spice. Or maybe he foresaw that Duncan would be the only one who could stop him.

But thinking about it now, he may have been an essential part of the Golden Path when the Honored Matres come along with their sexual enslavement powers. Like, maybe Leto foresaw that the Honored Matres were another way for humanity to become extinct, and Duncan would be needed to blunt that force when it came.

Although now that I really think about it, the Honored Matres were definitely no threat to those two super-advanced face dancers that Duncan kept having visions of, although it was kind of implied that they had become almost like Leto, these godlike beings snatching up groups from the Scattering and controlling their fate.

I enjoyed Duncan's role in heretics and chapterhouse. In many ways, although the plot device was different, his character reminds me very much of the primary dorsai characters in Gordon r Dickson's excellent childe cycle.

I find it interesting that both Herbert and Dickson seem to be very interested in telling humanity to grow the hell up, and seeing what path that may take. Also that they both saw some version of a diaspora, and how this could lead to societal fragmentation. I think there are a lot of parallels in the works and I enjoyed both immensely.

 

[BlasterMaster]

Although now that I really think about it, the Honored Matres were definitely no threat to those two super-advanced face dancers that Duncan kept having visions of, although it was kind of implied that they had become almost like Leto, these godlike beings snatching up groups from the Scattering and controlling their fate.

Yup, and we can only assume that Leto was counting on Duncan's gola rescuing the golas of Paul, Leto (as an infant), and the others and escaping to the outskirts of the known Universe. Something tells me those face dancers are not at all nice beings.

 

[BlueLine7045]

I'm not too familiar with Dune other than the movies, but damn. From what y'all summarized above, the Dune Universe, or the Duneiverse!, sounds really dark, depressing, and not fun. I'm sure that's not the case but if the problem is the complete extinction of humanity and the solution I guess is tyranny and a galactic war leading to the deaths of billions upon billions, just seems like a rock and a hard place to me

 

[BlasterMaster]

I'm not too familiar with Dune other than the movies, but damn. From what y'all summarized above, the Dune Universe, or the Duneiverse!, sounds really dark, depressing, and not fun. I'm sure that's not the case but if the problem is the complete extinction of humanity and the solution I guess is tyranny and a galactic war leading to the deaths of billions upon billions, just seems like a rock and a hard place to me

The problem was due to living in a universe where a person's destiny could be pre-determined, humanity was on track to creating hunter-killers that could evolve which would eventually go rogue and start multipling and eventually become unstoppable, traveling throughout the known universe killing all life (human or otherwise). The only way to stop this was putting humanity on "the golden path" which basically meant one person becoming a universal tyrant and forcing humanity to do nothing but eat, sleep, and worship him for the next several thousand years. The golden path happened and humanity got so pent up fustrated that they killed the tyrant (aka God Emperor Leto the II) and spread out amongst the stars to the point where no machine or hunter-killer could ever hope to kill them all.