Fishing for Sympathy ("Nice guys finish last" mentality rant)

[metalgod]

One of my biggest pet peeves are people who spill out every single dramatic aspect/problem of their lives on Facebook or the Forums. I understand you need the support of friends...but do you really need to make a public post for it? Make a blog entry..send a private message. Don't air all your dirty laundry or make your life seem like it's some Dickens novel. We ALL have problems...that is just life.

My buddy and I were having a discussion over this. We think it applies to what they call the "they self" in psychology -- those who post their problems on facebook are living for the "they self," not their genuine self. They are too worried about comparing their lives to others (e.g. "He has an awesome hot girlfriend and he's a dick! So does he! And so does he! Why not me? I'm way nicer than they are!") instead of just accepting the situation and trying to deal it. But, if they get affirmation from others like, "Hey! You're right! You really are a nice guy! You don't deserve any of that!" then somehow they won't think so lowly of themselves. It's amazing, isn't it, that people can't just tell themselves "you don't deserve any of that and you're a nice guy" and be content with that.

 

[Bothersome]

My buddy and I were having a discussion over this. We think it applies to what they call the "they self" in psychology -- those who post their problems on facebook are living for the "they self," not their genuine self. They are too worried about comparing their lives to others (e.g. "He has an awesome hot girlfriend and he's a dick! So does he! And so does he! Why not me? I'm way nicer than they are!") instead of just accepting the situation and trying to deal it. But, if they get affirmation from others like, "Hey! You're right! You really are a nice guy! You don't deserve any of that!" then somehow they won't think so lowly of themselves. It's amazing, isn't it, that people can't just tell themselves "you don't deserve any of that and you're a nice guy" and be content with that.

It's because they don't want to hear it from a biased source.
They want to know that they aren't the only ones who think so.

It's called being motivated. I don't know why it's such a strange concept. Do you feel better when you're praised for doing something correctly? Absolutely.

It's worth tons more to hear it from someone else's mouth than your own.

 

[locker669]

Tell your friend to sign up for the newsletter at doubleyourdates.com. I didn't buy anything but I love to read the stories.

 

[Leo tickles]

When I post something on a forum, I want opinions more than support 99.9% of the time.

When I am playing the poor me guy, unless stated otherwise, I'm just being a cynical asshole... or as I call it... funny. 😀

 

[metalgod]

It's because they don't want to hear it from a biased source.
They want to know that they aren't the only ones who think so.

It's called being motivated. I don't know why it's such a strange concept. Do you feel better when you're praised for doing something correctly? Absolutely.

It's worth tons more to hear it from someone else's mouth than your own.

I don't see how a "biased" source in this case is relevant. It's called "self-esteem" for a reason...of course it's biased! It's built into the definition.

Actually, it's usually the things that happen all the time everywhere that I find most strange rather than the 1-in-a-million event.

 

[Bothersome]

I don't see how a "biased" source in this case is relevant. It's called "self-esteem" for a reason...of course it's biased! It's built into the definition.

Actually, it's usually the things that happen all the time everywhere that I find most strange rather than the 1-in-a-million event.

Well, I'm not sure how else to explain it to you. People like encouragement from others. I thought that it was fairly basic psychology.

I think it's strange that people can live their entire lives without listening to any outside opinions. Sounds like a firm foundation for being completely wrong.

 

[Bohemianne]

Celibacy.

^ Lol. Concise enough.

 

[metalgod]

Well, I'm not sure how else to explain it to you. People like encouragement from others. I thought that it was fairly basic psychology.

I think it's strange that people can live their entire lives without listening to any outside opinions. Sounds like a firm foundation for being completely wrong.

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean to say. I understand that people like encouragement from others, but what I'm saying is that if self-esteem is based upon how much encouragement you get from others, then it is dependent upon them. I understand it, I'm just saying it's probably not the best option. If you can give yourself encouragement and believe it, then you're fine with self-esteem until you die.

 

[Bothersome]

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean to say. I understand that people like encouragement from others, but what I'm saying is that if self-esteem is based upon how much encouragement you get from others, then it is dependent upon them. I understand it, I'm just saying it's probably not the best option. If you can give yourself encouragement and believe it, then you're fine with self-esteem until you die.

People should never be just fine with their own opinion. As I've said before, that's a foundation for being wrong.

Your opinion can always be false. The only reason you would ever ignore other opinions is because you either aren't aware that your opinion could be wrong, or you just don't care that it can be. Either way, that sounds like a terrible way to live, in my opinion.

Self-esteem is great. There is a difference between self-esteem and conceited arrogance, though.

 

[metalgod]

I'm not sure how you go about establishing how true/false a judgment of character is...

I'm not a Christian, but I do know Jesus was on to something when he said to make righteous judgment of action (according to the golden rule) and to not make judgment of character.

1,000,000 people could think you're deserving of low-self esteem, but even if you're the only person that believes you are worthy of high self-esteem, that doesn't make you wrong. Look at Buddha and the Chinese. Or any religious group comparing themselves to any other religious group (generalizing).

I think it's more safe to assume that anyone judging you is inherently wrong and that you, having the best and most direct knowledge of your experience in the world, are best equipped to determine your own self-esteem.

 

[Bothersome]

I'm not sure how you go about establishing how true/false a judgment of character is...

I'm not a Christian, but I do know Jesus was on to something when he said to make righteous judgment of action (according to the golden rule) and to not make judgment of character.

1,000,000 people could think you're deserving of low-self esteem, but even if you're the only person that believes you are worthy of high self-esteem, that doesn't make you wrong. Look at Buddha and the Chinese. Or any religious group comparing themselves to any other religious group (generalizing).

I think it's more safe to assume that anyone judging you is inherently wrong and that you, having the best and most direct knowledge of your experience in the world, are best equipped to determine your own self-esteem.

So it doesn't matter if you have a bias towards yourself?

People can be wrong. Until you as a person cannot be wrong (in other words, never) then it is unwise to believe that you are always right.

And no, I don't think it's safe to assume that everyone else is inherently wrong. Psychologists make a living for a reason. They often know why you do things better than you do. Everyone has a personal bias towards themselves. Their viewpoints are going to be warped by this bias. Other people do not inherently possess this bias towards you, and thus, their viewpoints are not warped by it.

I could believe that I am the smartest, most clever person in the world. Would that make me correct? No.
No matter how much I argued that other people didn't understand my precious little mind, I would never be correct. I could keep believing that I was correct, despite what others told me, but that would make me incredibly stupid.

 

[metalgod]

So it doesn't matter if you have a bias towards yourself?

People can be wrong. Until you as a person cannot be wrong (in other words, never) then it is unwise to believe that you are always right.

And no, I don't think it's safe to assume that everyone else is inherently wrong. Psychologists make a living for a reason. They often know why you do things better than you do. Everyone has a personal bias towards themselves. Their viewpoints are going to be warped by this bias. Other people do not inherently possess this bias towards you, and thus, their viewpoints are not warped by it.

I could believe that I am the smartest, most clever person in the world. Would that make me correct? No.
No matter how much I argued that other people didn't understand my precious little mind, I would never be correct. I could keep believing that I was correct, despite what others told me, but that would make me incredibly stupid.

You could believe you are the smartest, most clever person in the world. Would that make you incorrect? No. Defining smartest and most clever is relational. You could try to be as "unbiased" as possible and have a 3rd party construct a definition of 'smart' and 'clever' and then judge two others accordingly, but then you have a problem. Who judges the 3rd party? And how do you know there aren't subjective differences in the interpretation of the definitions of 'smart' and 'clever?'

You could argue for the 'g' factor, but those with the highest IQ's tend to have alarmingly high rates of deficiencies in other ares. Some aren't even happy. How smart can you be if you aren't happy?

The nature of self-esteem is that it will always be 'biased' as you put it. Or it would be called 'other-esteem' or something else. When you judge yourself, you (a subject) is judging you (an object). Whether it's a matter of truth or opinion, judgments can only be made through ratio (the root word of rationale). So, you (the subject) are judging yourself (the object) and the judgment is formed through a relationship. If someone else judges you, he (the subject) is judging you (the object). Whether you judge yourself or if someone else judges you, it's simply a matter of a subject judging an object.

But, one person will have more knowledge about the object with which to make a more informed judgment. As the subject (you) who spends the most amount of time and experience with the object (yourself), you are best equipped to make an informed judgment.

 

[Bothersome]

http://i.imgur.com/yQXCZ.jpg

I found this recently, and I liked how they conveyed the point.

I stick to my opinion that you need more than just your own self-esteem to get by, however. Having no outside opinion has always been, and always will be the road to failure.

 

[metalgod]

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and it's cool you feel strongly about it. Though I'm confused. Were you using that link and saying they demonstrated your point or my point nicely? It recommends to "validate yourself" and not to let your self-esteem be influenced by someone like a friend or girlfriend.

I would think, however, that people with high self-esteem probably care less emotionally about the opinions of others' than those with low self-esteem. I base this on my previous experience (up through high school where my self-esteem was lower and I cared a lot about the opinions of others) compared with current experience (the reverse is true).

I'm also much happier now, and more content. And, it makes you care a lot less about MONEY (though, ironically, I've become much more ambitious).

I think a person naturally becomes less selfish when they care less about others' opinions of them. This doesn't mean care less about opinions; opinions should be considered. But not as a mechanism for influencing a person's self esteem. If you aren't emotionally attached to their opinions of you, you focus less on yourself (less selfish).

May I also point out the strange irony in claiming someone else's opinion of you is more correct than yours? The irony is that this can only be the case if your opinion of yourself is less correct than theirs, meaning your own identity at that point is 'unknown' to you because your belief about it is wrong. After all, if the self doesn't know the self, the self can't be sure he has any particular identity at all or even know what an identity is. How can someone else claim to know it? The self hasn't established it's identity yet.

Interesting conversation though.

 

[MrMacphisto]

http://i.imgur.com/yQXCZ.jpg

I found this recently, and I liked how they conveyed the point.

I stick to my opinion that you need more than just your own self-esteem to get by, however. Having no outside opinion has always been, and always will be the road to failure.

That's a good summary. Probably the worst part is that a lot of media reinforces this false assumption about women.

It's gotten to the point that I find it difficult to watch anything with the standard "overly nice guy" trying to get the girl theme. So many movies present this story arc, and it's probably out of sheer laziness on the part of screenwriters, since they can probably just cut and paste these plotlines and sub out different details.

So anyway, I'm sure a lot of guys see this enough in media that they buy into it. All it really leads to is disappointment in the end.